₦airaland Forum

babyosisi:
My quesion again is does Islam sanction the killing of a Muslim that converts to another religion?
This should be a yes or no answer.

Yes.

In a men's fellowship over the weekend, the central theme was "Knowing Yourself" - basically having to do with identity of one's self. Main text was Luke 9:55 - 'But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.'

At the end of the day, we were encouraged to see ourselves not mainly from what people say about us (good or bad); but rather from what God says He is making of us. Of the latter, He desires nothing less than that we be conformed to the image of His Son Jesus Christ (Rom. 8:29). It hasn't been easy in practical terms in our everyday lives - and that's why we need to rely more on the power of the Holy Spirit.

You get a very warm 'hand'. . . just 'shake' the rest.

belloti:
The truth is there was never a destruction of churches in zamfara. we have over 40 churches in the heart of Gusau, the state capital. One of the most popular school in zamfara is a catholic school. i don't know where you get info from.

That may well be, @belloti. However, my concern is that it is very disturbing to note Muslims leaders should issue such threats at all to Christians, and in some other instances, churches have been destroyed. Perhaps you'd like to review the following:

¤ Source: International Christian Concern
'Islamic fundamentalists under the leadership of Governor Alhaji Ahmed Sani are planning to destroy 14 churches in the town of Gusua in Zamfara State. . . '

¤ Source: Human Rights Without Frontiers
>> (22.12.1999) 'A gang of hundreds of Moslem youths destroyed 14 churches in the central Nigerian city of Ilorin at the weekend, newspapers said on Monday. . .'
>> (20.08.1999) 'The government of Kano state in northern Nigeria has designated some 150 churches for demolition because the churches are illegal structures erected without government approval, a state government official said. . . Muslim leaders cite church growth in the predominately-Muslim northern state and the need for regulation as the reason for the government's threat to demolish the churches.'
>> (21.09.1999) 'A Muslim leader in Ilorin, the capital of central Nigeria's Kwara state, has called on the state government to relocate all churches out of Ilorin city and to ban the sale of land to Christians for building churches. . . Alhaji Ibrahim Sulu-Gambari, the emir of Ilorin, made the call July 23 while receiving a delegation from the Federation of Muslim Women's Association of Nigeria (FOMWAN) in his palace. No explanation has been given for the statement, but the call has increased religious tension in the state.'

We have seen an increase in the spate of these threats in recent times, and we continue to wonder why some Muslims pretend that no such thing exists.

belloti:
For the rest of you guys, Islam is not always what you percieved to be Islam.

In light of recent happenings to confirm otherwise?

belloti:
Its a comprehensive and complex religion that need a lot of understanding. Am sorry to say even among the muslims brethren some aspects are mostly referred to the scholars for proper Interpretation.

A religion doesn't need to be so complex in order for its adherents to understand the meaning of mutual co-existence with people, honest peace without the facade, and the treatment of women in honour and dignity.

belloti:
SO don't think you know a bit about Islam. you can only think you know.

What is there to hide from what everyone can read - especially the concerns being posted and begging for clear answers?

belloti:
i advice you to please stay within the limits of your knowledges.

I don't think knowledge has a plural to it (I might be mistaken). Besides, human life thrives on the quest to know rather than on a stagnation of the brain.

Interesting.

Well @dignity, still waiting for details.

mukina2:
i don't know why every thread on this religion board has to come up with "off topic"
as far as am concerned there are so many propaganda sites on the internet this days so all kinds of "truths " would be found

What propaganda sites are you referring to? What we would like to know is whether or not what is being posted are false. To be specific, it would be interesting to see how you guys defend or sustain the idea that Muhammad married only 4 women and who those women are. And what about the texts in the Hadith that authentic the claim that Muhammad married more than 4 women - are those hadiths propaganda too?

Guys, guys. . . sometimes these things are hard to avoid, and people must take some heat where they're misunderstood.

So, let me offer a truce to both of you - TayoD and Hnd-holder, apologies from me and myself. . . so that we can continue to learn. Whatever has happened should belong to the past. Handshakes??

@wolex,

In quoting the texts of the Qur'an, I haven't interpreted their meaning other than pointing out what they say - and I've buttressed that with a genuine Hadith. If the points raised in my concerns are not valid, then I should be humble to learn where that is so. However, it does not appear that anyone has come up to disavow the issues raised in the texts quoted.

Perhaps, you may want to help our readers better understand your point by delineating which Hadiths are genuine and which are disingenuous.

Oracle:
Itz just that Before God all sins are equal, but before man it definitely isn't

Statements like this are made when people no longer read God's Word and yet want to legislate for Him. Before God, all sins are not equal.

Oracle:
because you can't compare Adultery to shoplifting or lying to armmed robbery

And does God treat them all the same - if you can't compare them?

@jagunlabi,

jagunlabi:
No,it was meant for christianity.Islam does not have "pastors" in their hierachial positions,and neither does islam have Jeshua Bin Joseph as it's true originator.

Oh, I see you haven't really cured yourself of your age-old misconceptions. You only arrived at a miscarriage and slanted idea by describing Islam in Christian terms. And you shouldn't be so funny as to suppose that Jesus is not in Islam - even the most ignorant of Muslims will set you straight on that.

jagunlabi:
Sorry that one was a poor deflection tactic,

You mean you own deflection? Oh, I see. Nevermind that - we understand it's all too characteristic in your posts.

jagunlabi:
although i do not blame you for trying since both religions are similar in flaws.

The 'flaws' that give you sleepless nights so that you're neither here nor there. No wahala - keep sweating it out.

jagunlabi:
No,she didn't,and she is the one doing the confusing.

Really? And you haven't seen your own confusion from the onset?

@Remmzy,

No vex - apologies 1,000 times! I might have read you wrongly.

godisgreat:
we do convert othe religons into islam, but we are not forcing them too, its there choice and i guess the want to be muslims so YAH!!

hello @godisgreat,

Do you really understand Islam at all? I have no problem with the idea that some Muslims feel islam respects the religious choices of other people - which clearly it does not. But do "real Muslims" respect that choice when a Muslim seeks to convert to other religions? If you have no problem converting others to Islam, don't you think Muhammad disrespected their free choice by seeking to kill Muslim converts to other religions?

godisgreat:
okay we have the quran, which all of its copies are exactly the same, on the other hand christans have the bible which not all of the copies are the same, so tell me which bible tells the truth

The Qur'an of today is not the same as the ones Muhammad gave. Apart from the historical fact that during Muhammad's life, his companions had different readings of the Qur'anic verses; it is a known fact as well that the third Caliph Uthman ordered all the existing copies of the Qur'an to be burnt after he had produced his own edited version. So what you're reading today is the political redaction of Uthman and not Muhammad's Qur'an.

Besides, if you would only take the challenge to do a bit more research, you'll find that there are as many spurious copies of the Qur'an as you accuse the Bible; and all those copies of the Qur'an do not agree in just the same way you're accusing the Bible.

Hi @ISAHO,

babyosisi:

@ Isaho tell us on this forum how many wives did Muhammad have.
We all know what the word wife means so no need to explain away.

1.How many wives did he marry?

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ISAHO[/size] link=topic=3643.msg563879#msg563879 date=1155531508]
@babyosisi,
Q. 1. i still maintain my words they are 4.

Well, is there any particular reason why you choose 4 and disregard the rest? It is true that the Qur'an stipulates 4 wives for Muslim men; but when you study Q. 33:50 carefully, you find that Muhammad alone had the licence to marry more than 4! [remember the clause - "this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large);"].

Secondly, judging from other sources recounting the actual history of what transpired, this is what we find about Muhammad's marriage to several women:

1. Khadijah bint Khuwailid - the first woman he married when he was 25 and she was 40 years old.

2. Sawdah bint Zam‘a - second wife whom he married in Shawwal (the tenth month of the Islamic calendar), in the tenth year of Prophethood, a few days after the death of Khadijah.

3. Aisha bint Abu Bakr - married off to Muhammad when she was 6 and became fully "wife" at 9 years old.

4. Hafsah bint ‘Umar bin Al-Khattab - Muhammad married her in the third year of Al-Hijra.

5. Zainab bint Khuzaimah - formerly the wife of ‘Abdullah bin Jahsh, who was martyred at Uhud; Muhammad married her in the fourth year of Al-Hijra, but she died two or three months after the marriage.

6. Umm Salamah Hind bint Abi Omaiyah - formerly the wife of Abu Salamah, who died in Jumada Al-Akhir, in the fourth year of Al-Hijra; Muhammad married her in Shawwal of the same year.

7. Zainab bint Jahsh bin Riyab - she was Muhammad’s paternal cousin, and even the Qur'an has a text about her marriage to him: "So when Zaid had accomplished his desire from her (i.e., divorced her), We gave her to you in marriage" (Q. 33:37). Muhammad married her in Dhul-Qa‘dah, the fifth year of Al-Hijra.

8. Safiyah bint Huyai bin Akhtab - a Jewess taken as 'booty' at Khaibar battle whom Muhammad married after that conquest in the seventh year of Al-Hijra.

9. Maimunah bint Al-Harith - daughter of Al-Harith, and sister of Umm Al-Fadl Lubabah bint Al-Harith; Muhammad married her in Dhul-Qa‘dah in the seventh year of Al-Hijra.

Two other women (Juwairiyah bint Al-Harith and Umm Habibah: Ramlah, the daughter of Abu Sufyan) make up the eleven wives of the core of his harem, and with whom Muhammad incontestably consummated his marriage. It is interesting also that the Hadith confirms that Muhammad had more than 4 wives and he kept sexual relations with them -

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 5, Number 268:

Narrated Qatada:
Anas bin Malik said, "The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number." I asked Anas, "Had the Prophet the strength for it?" Anas replied, "We used to say that the Prophet was given the strength of thirty (men)." And Sa'id said on the authority of Qatada that Anas had told him about nine wives only (not eleven).

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 5, Number 270:

Narrated Muhammad bin Al-Muntathir:
on the authority of his father that he had asked 'Aisha about the saying of Ibn 'Umar (i.e. he did not like to be a Muhrim while the smell of scent was still coming from his body). 'Aisha said, "I scented Allah's Apostle and he went round (had sexual intercourse with) all his wives, and in the morning he was Muhrim (after taking a bath)."

The only reason one could have for maintaining that Muhammad had no more than 4 wives, is simply to reject a clear testimony of the Qur'an and the Hadith. You may check several other sources including [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad's_marriages#Other_Wives_of_the_Prophet]Wikipedia[/url].

babyosisi:


2.Did he have any concubines?

3.did he have any temporary lovers albeit forcefully?

4.did he marry his relatives?

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ISAHO[/size] link=topic=3643.msg563879#msg563879 date=1155531508]

Q.2, Q.3, Q.4 and Q5 remain NO.

Again, the facts stand out from Islamic sources that Muhammad actually had concubines and married his relation (Zaynab bint Jahsh). This is the sort of reasoning that we're imploring people to deal with - be open and acknowledge the real issues in Islam rather than cover them up.

Remmzy:
the above is for the Zombi's or vampires, real educated Muslim flees way from total sin. You might come from a muslim world but not be true to Islam. Islam means peace!

You only succeeded in proving that since Muhammad did not flee from total sin, he was not a "real educated Muslim" and he was not true to Islam as he did not pursue "peace". Hence, your input is aptly suited to "Zombi's or vampires".

ISAHO:
i wonder why m4malik`s head has not yet been sauced for peppersoup. (laugh)

Now we both can laugh, because I'm not in a place where my head would have been stewed from the Islamic tenet of killing a Muslim convert to another religion.

ISAHO:
to your question babyosisi, yes muslim denies that monopolistic idea of killing muslim converts to xtian which you are quite aware that much light had been shed on it for your understanding by various muslim brothers on nairaland.

No light has been shed on the issue as long as the hadith still stands as referenced earlier in which Muhammad was believed to have said: 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'

ISAHO:
what am trying to point out from the above story is that you can never describe islam from the outside but instead you must have a clearer knowledge of the Quran before you can definitely and conciously describe Islam as a religion of God.

Precisely what I have been driving at - people should hold their ignorant opinions to themselves until they've read the Qur'an before ascribing euphemisms to Islam that it does not merit.

ISAHO:
let me give you my own idea of Islam, it is a mystrey which when you try to unfold you still find it mysterious,

Granted, particularly the mystery of killing atheists for not believing in God, killing Muslims for converting to other religions, and the immorality of the Prophet of Islam that one cannot gloss over.

ISAHO:
this salvation thing is not what you get up morning and declare salvation for yourself, you really have to search for it and work for it. that was why God in the Quran emphasises a lot on the use of the gift of knowledge He has given to mankind. a mare teaching of the Quran by another person does not really make you understand it but your personal conviction of the message in the Quran. and in so many areas of the Quran, He declares that except ye be wise you will not understand the Quran.

Searching and working for salvation will not make anyone closer to God if they continue to reject the grace that He offers in Jesus Christ. It's funny that man will seek a substitute for that which already was purported to have been "revealed" and "confirmed" - as is said of the Gospel of Jesus in the Qur'an; and after all the work is done, even the founder of such a substitute salvation declares that he did not know what *Allah* would do to him in that day. If there's no assurance at the end of one's career of searching and working for salvation, why even bother at the beginning?

ISAHO:
so therefore my good friends on nairaland, you have done a great job trying to understand Islam but a further use of the wisdom God has given to you should be able to put you through. i pray that may God Almighty directs you as you make another benefitting research on the religion called Islam.

Good - we're still researching on the explicit statements in the Qur'an and the hadiths that inform our concerns and posting the results for all to read on the Forum, in the hope that they may be directed to benefit on the findings by God's true mercy.

nilla:
Christians are supposed to be followers of Christ, and sometimes the people that claim they are christians do things that are certainly not Christ like. And yet they have the guts to judge the Muslims (And we christians we know we are not supposed to judge).

To be a follower of Christ does not mean such a person should keep silent at issues that concern everyone - including you. As long as Muslims are not doing enough to confront the hideous atrocities perpetrated by Muslims themselves who believe they are obeying the call of *Allah*, we owe it a duty to ourselves and to posterity to take these issues to the frontdoor of people who don't know what they're talking about until they've read both the Qur'an and the Bible.

As for judging, Jesus Himself said this: "The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil. . . Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." (John 7:7 & 24). Need I make further comments?

Thanks and God bless.

Dear mamaput, I have always tried to cool down and maintain a consistent posture. It may seem that I'm hot-headed from my previous post, which is rather unfortunate, if that's how people want to read me. I would rather be misread and misunderstood than be passive and silent in the face of what confronts us all. Whatever could be adduced from my posts, one thing I've tried to do is present issues and create an awareness for people to see what we many times take for granted.

In all, I don't go out to be deliberately belligerent - not at all. People may not like my inputs, because truth hurts badly (I know because I've been there before). Where I have inadvertently said things unwarranted at all, I've always sought to register my apologies - which I don't hesitate to do here: please accept my apologies if you felt offended by any lines you read. However, I offer that people try and look at the issues raised than take it personally.

My idea of fighting terrorism is to expose the root cause of what produces it. Until people bring on these root-causes, it would be a never ending menace we'll perennially have to deal with.

Shalom.

mamaput:
People have to make noise and not look away the way they have been looking away.

That's all that needed to have been said - "not look away the way they have been looking away", which is precisely what we have been attempting to do by bringing these very disturbing trends to the frontdoor of our Muslim friends. We are asking them to do more than passively shrug their shoulders when things happen that make the world grimace about the sad occurences in Islam. Let me remind you of what I said earlier -

m4malik:
I think Muslims should do more to convince the world that Islam is not what we're seeing it being practised today - to convince us with tolerance and not suicide bombers and terrorists; with openness and a willingness to confront these issues rather than the hypocricies so characteristic of the leaders in Islam.

So, you can see that you either misunderstood the issue altogether and supposed that those who refuse to look away are the real enemies.

@kaecy5,

I don't know if there's any quote in the Bible or Qur'an exactly worded as "Christ is the answer." The closest to it that I can think of in the Bible is in John 14:6 - 'Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me'. Perhaps, Jesus' declaration to be "the Way" is why Christians use the expression "Jesus is the answer".

It's true that most Muslims we know and engage in discussions have very limited knowledge of the Qur'an (the same can be said about Christians and knowing their Bible). It's often difficult to point out anything to someone who hasn't read the books and goes only by what they've made up their minds to believe - whether those things are right or wrong. Sometimes, some reasonable people will be interested in listening to what one has to say when they're offered the challenge to check out those things for themselves in the texts.

In all, we still keep praying and sharing in hope that these challenges will bring many to know the saving grace in Jesus Christ.

Great. You proved nothing other than what you had from the onset - noise!

mamaput:
My use of the germans is just an other example.

Another example of what exactly?

mamaput:
That i call you a racist is not an insult it is a fact.
racist tribalism what ever.

Thanks - that says so much about you.

mamaput:
I ask myself were you get your starstictics from.
What % are most Muslims to you ??

Just proves that you haven't read the various threads where I've made inputs on this again and again.

@mamaput,

I haven't proven you right in anything other than the noise you're making. Find out the meaning of 'racism' before you go off convincing us further that you really don't know what you're saying. The only thing you could have done is proven me wrong on my inputs, not taking a cheap applause for what you know nothing about. And please, did you mean 'shedding' instead of 'shading'?

What have Germans being called Nazis got to do with religion? You don't just spin off topic and start off accusing people especially where you haven't taken the time to read through the posts.

mamaput:
Just for the record the second insult here and we are only on a forum.

Stop being so childish, mamaput. What did I do or say to have merited your insult of calling me a racist - a word you neither know in meaning or proper use? And when you started off accusing me directly in your first entry here, what did that make you?

@mamaput,

mamaput:
: m4malik, kenshin , Both of you are good examples of what wholex is talking about.
At the rate things are going many Muslims have to even fear to give their kids Islam names.
Ones we were watching football , i think it was African cup, Nigeria against ? and one foolish woman shouted Jesus is stronger than Mohammad.
We feel it in every day life . I feel it and am not even a Muslim. A very good friend has 8 kids people say "because her husband is a Muslim he is forcing her to have them , thats not true, she is the one that wants them.
The only thing i here is those Muslims them here those Muslims there.
Islam is a book of peace and an unbeliever is not a non Muslim.
I admit that some go too far in there religion.
But even here on this forum there are a lot of fanatics. and am talking about Christian fanatics.
Every second someone here is calling on Gods name.
What dose god have to do with a forum.

You sound so very confused because you haven't read the inputs on the Forum.

What is wolex really talking about? And how much of the Qur'an have you read to declare that propagandist hoo-ha that "Islam is a book of peace"? (Not to even mention that Islam is a religion and not a book!). I really don't mind you making noise on the Forum, but you'll do well to make sense out of your misdirected noise!

I see the advice was meant for Islam. We've been through it before.

It does not appear that you've grown up, so I'll just let you continue to amuse yourself while you can.

Ah, babyosisi. . . thank you for that.

We may not quite understand everything about the life of faith from start to finish, but I'm encouraged to know that "The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and He knoweth them that trust in Him" - Nahum 1:7.

@wholex,

I understand your concerns, but when moderate contemporary Muslims blame the atrocities of their fellow Muslims on excuses like "the work of devilishminded people. . .and . . . gualibility of the alimajiris," I'm forced to shake my head in disagreement because these same people get their inspiration both from the Qur'an and the example of Muhammad in the hadith.

Let's take a singular example - the killing of a Muslim convert to other religions, this is what the Qur'an says:

Q.4:89 - "They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper."

And from the Hadith:

Hadith Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57

Narrated 'Ikrima:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

So, you can see that the bellicose nature of these 'real' Muslims is not a tangential spin-off of demented minds, but rather they're following the authentic belief of Muhammad's religion, and those Muslims who believe that "the holy quran strongly goes against taken the lives of fellow human beign" are regarded by the 'real Qur'an-believing' Muslims as munafiq.

I don't see you as one of those who makes us wonder at the grey areas of Islam; but you really would have a tough task convincing the world otherwise than that Islam creates a people who know nothing like peace and will go to any length to deny others of the same.

Here we go again with semantics. Anyone reading the Bible knows that "the book of Hebrews" is the same as "the Letter of Paul to the Hebrews" found in the New Testament. If there's nothing like the former, there's equally nothing like the latter.

The word "ghost" is as scary as the word "spirit".

But the 'Holy Ghost' who is the same 'Holy Spirit' we read of in Scripture is given to believers to live victoriously and not timidly.

For all your self-improvement, how have you demonstrated that you have dealt with your own ignorance?

Bobby,

There again I think you have trailed off and mixed up figures and identities to arrive at your interpretation. Your assumptions about Daniel 7:24-25 is only a convenient Seventh-Day Adventist theological interpretation that sees 'the king' that will arise as the Roman Catholic Church. This kind of reasoning stops short at important points so that figures could be manipulated to arrive at this idea. Let me ask a few questions:

1. How has the 3¹/₂ years become 1260 years when in God's prophetic calendar, a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years as one day (2 Pet. 3:? You're translating years into years, the only difference being that 3 ¹/₂ has become 1260.

2. How has the Roman Catholic Church become the little horn that speaks great things against the Most High God, as if other groups have not spoken such things against Him?

3. It looks like you're mixing up identities by equating the beast and the little horn. Look at what you said:

Bobbyaf:
Well, are you aware that Daniel spoke about the beast power that would actually attempt to change God's set laws and times.

The little horn would try to change the set(established) times, and the laws

So, which is it - the beast or the little horn?

4. Now regarding times, did you notice what the Scriptures say about the horn in Daniel 7:21-22? See -

I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

So, did the Roman Catholic Church make war with the saints until the Ancient of days came?

And again in verses 25-26. . .

And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

(a) Has the dominion of the Roman Catholic Church been taken away to consume and destroy it unto the end - and by whom?

(b) Since the dominion of the horn shall be taken away, did this happen after the 1260 years (that is, "From AD538 - AD1798" you hinted at?

5. Notice also that the little horn is said to be a king (as you acknowledged) and not a kingdom. Do you not suspect something is very wrong in your interpretation of a 'king' as the Roman Catholic Church, since the latter is a collective entity existing as an organization and not an individual?

Now with the Sunday issue,

(1) What do you think God is going to do to those Christians who worship Him on Sunday, the first day of the week?

(2) What do you think God will do to those Christians who gathered for worship on the first day of the week as in Acts 20:7?

(3) And what did God do to John who was in Spirit on the "Lord's Day" (Rev. 1:10) - what is the 'Lord's Day' there?

Bobbyaf:
Of the 7 or 8 bible references that make mention of the first day of the week, none have directly said that Sunday is the new Lord's day.

And none has directly said that Saturday was the first day of the week either!

Bobbyaf:
There are no direct reference for such an important change to which they speak, neither from Christ nor from His representatives.

I haven't yet come across anyone who knows the Scriptures to be speaking of a "change" of the days in question. Rather, reference has been made frequently to the simple statements in Scripture about what days Christians gathered for worship - Acts 20:7 as an example. Again, you will not find a text in the NT directly commanding that Christians gather for worship on the seventh day or on the Sabbath. What the Scriptures simply declare about the day/time of gathering for worship among Christians are -

¤ "when ye come together in the church" - I Cor. 11:18

¤ "When ye come together therefore into one place" - I Cor. 11:20

¤ "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread" - Acts 20:7.

Since this was what the early Christians did, is it too much for contemporary Christians to follow their example?

Why are you guys pretending like terrorism does not exist in Islam?

katashi:
i believe you just being unfair in your judgements about islam and our holy prophet Muhammed(Peace Be Upon Him). You go and ask for forgiveness from God For haven made that statement about Our holy prophet(PBUH).

Those who have killed in God's name should go and ask for forgiveness for their atrocities. The unfair judgement in this issue is to ignore the terrors that have been unleashed on others by people who believe they have a just cause to kill others for not believing in their religion. It's even worse to pretend these problems don't exist, or explain it away as though it is not an Islamic thing; or otherwise pretend that those killing others have not done so in *Allah's* name and religion.

katashi:
The middle east and the european countries have scores to settle and they are using islam as an excuse for thei quarrels.

Then blame the excuse on Muslims themselves who are using Islam as an excuse to settle whatever problems they have with European countries and Western democracies. What are the problems between these blocs that Muslims have to resort to the crude means of terrorism to settle scores? Other religions have been insulted and we haven't seen their adherents taking to the streets and calling for the massacre of those who insult them. I wonder what the world would say if today Christians took to the streets and carried the same placards calling for the massacre of those who insult Jesus and Christianity.

[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f7/Muslims.PNG[/img]

katashi:
Have ever heard of any suicide bomber visiting any African country? Are ther no Muslims in Africa? Islam is Peace.

And what do you call those who 'visited' and bombed the American Embassies simultaneously in Kenya, Nairobi and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania - both in Africa in August 1998? It's strange that the peace being preached in Islam is ignoring the fact that more violence is being used to propagate the idea of Islamic peace.

katashi:
Jihad is not all about fighting and killing people, it means more than that, for e.g. avoiding what the Almighty God prohibits us from doing is also Jihad. So please mind your useof language.

If Jihad includes the idea of avoiding what the Almighty God prohibits, why has that prohibition not recognized the hideousness of the killings that are all too often perpetrated in name of Islam these days? As long as the killings in the name of *Allah* are unjustified, it just makes it all the more necessary to speak out in every language that it's either Islam be reformed or be dropped altogether.

@babyosisi,

Well, I want to apologise for one of my lines where I joked that "you would have been roasting like suya" - it was meant to demonstrate the mindset I had as a Muslim in my dark. . . very dark days. The "people of the Book" (Christians) I once hated for the love of the *Allah* of the Qur'an have now become my very love, and babyosisi you're one of them.

Does it then mean that "the people of the Qur'an" have become the opposite of my love? Not at all - because, after I experienced the divine love and grace of Jesus Christ, I knew what true love is for the very first time in my life. . . and my hope is to challenge my dear Muslim friends to see what Islam actually is, so that they could take the bold leap of faith and seek the true God who truly loves people. I've not always done this in a proper manner, but I'm learning everyday.

I agree with you that it is very wrong for anyone - Christian or Muslim - to suggest even remotely that a person has to leave their country because of religious beliefs. That's why I asked earlier:  what really makes a person a citizen of any country - their religion or their birthright? So, to suggest at all that Christians murdered in northern Nigeria must have brought it upon themselves is not only wrong, it is absolutely wicked. Killing anybody just because they don't believe what I believe is diabolical, I'm sorry to say.

@Coco29,

Coco29:
wow that actually happens. please explain how that happened(moving from islam to chris)

Well, that wasn't easy at all for me. I can only summarily say that the challenge lasted for about 3 years before I cried out to God for help. I had done something I can't presently recount here on the Forum; but when He answered and brought me through, I knew there was something about that name - Jesus Christ! Then I experienced a miracle for myself about a year later, and that was it for me - I was determined to seek Him even if it cost me my life. I still receive death threats, but Jesus has been faithful. I thank God for my parents - my muslim dad found Christ and I noticed the tremendous changes in him, which were a great help to me.

You really don't know how strong is the spirit in Islam, but I know now that it is not of the true and loving God (see I John 4:1). I only say this to persuade and encourage you to know that, if God could find, love and save me in the depths of my wickedness, He sure can do the same and change your testimony. You don't know half the wickedness I did in my dark days; but here I am - forgiven, redeemed, cleansed and empowered to love for Jesus' sake. Coco29, your testimony can be greater than mine, and I'm adding you to my prayer list.