₦airaland Forum

olabowale:
To m4malik, Alhamdulillah, I was looking for a job from anyone. Therefore, I do not have to justify my level of education. If you need to know, I studied Civil engineering in one of the most well known engineering Institutes in america. Further I was also matriculated into graduate program in architecture, which is my primary love. I am now an exchanger and presently get involved in design concepts in major projects that my organization is either doing the finance of it or own outright. As an Ijebu man, I love money so I direct my attention to it, so that sometimes i can spend ample time on what i like; Dawah. You see I do not have to justify myself to you. I have raised college educated children as well. They are men who respect their elders even when they disagree with them. It shows the kind of quality you got from your parents, knowing fully well as a Yoruba, probably so because i have not seen an Hausa who have left islam for Christianity, yet.

To reassure you, I appreciate good stuff where I see one. Your honesty in being Ijebu is applaudable. It's true you need not justify yourself to me personally - I was only pressing that you employ the rules of good writing, so that it could help those of us who read you.

On the whole, if you read me wrong or in an offensive manner, my apologies. What does it cost me to humble myself in respect of my elders - be they muslims, christians, . . . or even atheists? Please don't be offended, I'm not Gwaine!!

olabowale:
Further, your case is like the case of the one who is lazy and hopes that an invented short cut would stand up to a full commitment. I have news for you, it may not matter to you at this point, but you will find out soon enough; Jesus will not safe you. that was not the reason he was sent. Your case is with Allah the Almighty, alone. so is my case and the case of everyone.
As of the case of Melchezdeke, it was to bring you to a realization that from your bible, you will find even unusual personality, hence, if you reflect on it, you may actually realize the weakness of the hypothesis of Trinity, Son of God and God on earth as you have ascribed to Jesus the son of Mary (AS).

No problem - my elders still call me lazy when I visit Nigeria. Why? The vacuum cleaner I bought them is still unused and serves as interior decor in one corner of a room - after 2 years!! But commitment in my faith is another matter - you're only being mild, because you would not like to know what they call me. I've even been chased once with a dagger in Ilorin because I dared to tell them about Jesus Christ. That didn't deter me. I've stated once at least on the Forum that I don't mind being thrown into the fire or beheaded - and I've been threatened with the latter at least twice! In all these things, I still rejoice because I'm alive and well, and God assures me in my heart that Jesus is truly the Saviour and the Son of God.

Lazy? Maybe. But committed in my faith? Most definitely.

@nuru,

Very clearly you did not answer any one of my questions, and that is precisely the problem that led me to investigate Islam for myself and found it for what it actually is - a system of theories that saves no man.

If your explanation of "Allah's" use of the plural pronoun "WE" is predicated on the analogy of how Yoruba men speak, I'd be thinking that afterall, you chaps are making "Allah" stoop to the level of Yoruba men! Is it not said time and again that Allah is like nobody else? Then why would he speak like Yoruba men??

What you don't understand is that, nobody else can "create" except God alone. Now when "Allah" claims that "WE created", he is not saying that he alone did so, but that he and whoever else he associates himself with did the job! You did not take the time to explain the persons or beings associated in the "WE" that 'Allah' identifies himself with. And I'm asking again - Who is 'WE' in Allah's use of the term in "WE created"??

As for the numbers, you suddenly lost your faculty and they could not add up - no? You only serve to prove my point that when people ask Muslims about the significance of the so-called miraculous numbers in the Qur'an, answers will not be forthcoming.

The "Allah" of the Qur'an is not the creator of every being - he didn't say so and instead he said "WE created". I only just want you guys to be as honest as you can help it and realise that Islam is nothing other than polytheism. It is either he created all things himself and would have said so himself; or, while forbidding his worshippers from recognizing this polytheistic confession, he acknowledges his associates as partners by saying "WE created".


Pardon my perennial reference of "WE created" - just couldn't help otherwise until you guys acknowledge this fact of Islam's polytheism!

Uh-oh, @Dru,

Something's really not quite it in your summations.

Drusilla:
Notice the bible does not teach that the Messiah was cut off in the 69th week as many Christians are told.

The 70th week has to be past because it was only after the 69th week that the Messiah cut off.

It didn't say that the 70th week was past before the Messiah was cut off.

Drusilla:
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

To interpret this verse as referring to Jesus seems to me to miss the point altogether. You've completely jumped off the previous verse that identifies the one who causes the sacrifice and the oblation to cease - he's "the prince that shall come", and who destroys the city and the sanctuary (v. 26). Is that Jesus as well?

syrup:
(a) do you agree at all with Bobby that 'the Law' has various connotations in the various contexts where they appear in the NT?

Yep.

syrup:
(b) are there any portions of the Law that we should keep at all, or all the Law (in whatever contexts) should be thrown overboard?

Nope.

syrup:
(c) who determines what should remain and what to be "abrogated" (i.e., no longer to be applied) in NT Christian living?

God.

syrup:
Guys, cut the hot air and kid stuff of taunting each other - just focus on what's on ground for discussion so we can learn in as few words as possible. Thank you and enjoy your Sunday.

Just did. You too.

olabowale:
By the way, if you read Qur'an very carefully, you should have found that Allah praised Muhammad (AS) and clearly spoke about his going to paradise, for example in Suratul Fajr's last Ayah. Also in many places God spoke about the Companion of Muhammad, the Muhajirrin and the ansar (RA) are people He is pleased with. Tell me m4malik, when you are pleased with someone, do you altimately punish them or make way of ease for them.

Tell me Olabowale, if Muhammad was so sure of his destiny beyond the grave, would he have cried out that he didn't know what Allah would do to him in that day? It's plain simple: it's either he was not sure that paradise was actually meant for him, or the supposed "praise" Allah gave to Muhammad was invented to soothe his troubled conscience. In contrast, when we read of Jesus' promise of salvation, there's no hint of such confusion and uncertainity. It's a clear yes-yes or no-no! He left no room for doubts in His promise in John 14:2-3 =>

"In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

Can anything be clearly or more reassuring? I don't want to spend my days following a self-declared prophet who was not sure where he was going and only had to comfort his companions with the tale of 72 virgins and rivers of liquer.

olabowale:
wer do not have the concept of 12 apostles of Jesus sitting and Judging the 12 tribes of Israel. Where will the non Israel tribe fits in this equation.

Read the equation in Revelation 7:9 -- "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands."

olabowale:
What happens to Judas in this case, is he one of the Judges or Paul has now taken his place. Who judge Paul/Saul the destroyer of Jesus's true message with his own inventions. Where is the Almighty in all of these.

For the Judas case, read Acts 1:25: "That he [that is, Matthias - v. 26] may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place."

Paul did not take the place of Judas; rather, Matthias was chosen by lot to replace him (Acts 1:26). Paul was not a destroyer of Jesus' true message; it was rather Muhammad that came with his own inventions of a twisted and perverted alternative of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

In all of this, the Almighty was bearing witness and confirming the apostleship of Paul and the Twelve others with tremendous signs - so powerful that the dead were raised (Acts 9:40 & 20:9-12), demons cast out (Acts 16:16-18), and people delivered and turned to the way of the Lord in repentance and righteousness (Acts 26:19-20). So mighty were God's confirmation of the apostleship of Paul that the Bible says in Acts 19:11 -- "And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul."

If Paul was a destroyer of Jesus' true message, would the Almighty have approved of his apostleship with special miracles? You see that you have some empty vexations against the Bible you really haven't read, and you're making it more and more doubtful that you passed your WASC exams.

olabowale:
For those who have been to Makkah, please ask them of the animals of prey and what they prey

I would rather not ask, thank you - not after having read Ayatollah Khomeini's Islamic exposé on what Muslim men do with animals in his domain. I can't understand a religion that aces bestiality with a "revelation" and pretends that it is alright, while hanging teenage homosexual boys for being gay. Muslim men having sex with animals (what do you call that?) - and it is alright to excuse them, yes??

olabowale:
As to my writing, i am very comfortable with it and i have no problem with it. afterall, I am not expecting you to grade my work. that was many decades ago.

It really doesn't cost anything to put in a little effort to write well. But if can't afford to do that, then you're just proving your level of education - WASC, did you say? No harm meant, but I wonder if you made a good grade at all in English composition. Be honest.

olabowale:
If you wish, hear the truth and act upon it. If you are people of doom do as you wish. Hell fire will consume the Evil doers with a ferocious consumption. we all bear our own responsibility.

I've heard the truth in Jesus Christ and acted on it; in fair exchange I invite you to open your heart and see the difference He makes. Heaven is no respecter of persons, and those who have lived sinful lives under the pretence of "revelation" will not be found in the home of righteousness.

olabowale:
To you my brother m4malik, if you hate Islam so much and I wonder why you still keep the name Malik. Change and be done with it.

First, I'm free from the hate Islam infused in me since coming to know the authentic Jesus Christ so I could understand the real meaning of love - for God and for people. I don't hate Muslims, but that doesn't mean we should refrain from exposing Islam for what it actually is, especially when apologists like you spend time and sweat posting your prejudices against the Christian faith of which you know next to nothing about.

Second, my name remains Malik - and it's my choice to retain it for reasons best known to me. Muhammad didn't give me that name and he can't take it away from me even if he turns 72 times in his grave. The problem with the Muslim mindset is that people can't live in peace unless and until they cower under Muhammad's sword. Jesus delivered me from all that, and nothing that Islam proposes can change my mind from the liberty my family now enjoy with the Prince of Peace.

olabowale:
Further, the blind arguments of the christians make me wonder if they never reflectedand see in themselves and in their surroundings signs of One who is Mighty, Wise. Allah Tahallah asked in the Qur'an, 'if there have been more than One Lord (God), wouldn't they be opposition fron One of them as it concerns the directive of another'

What you call 'blind arguments of the Christians' is what you've been taught by rote to say as an Islamic dogmatist who himself rarely takes the time to consider his own blind obstinacy. Unless you have not been reading the Qur'an, it's hard to miss the fact that the "Allah" of Islam's sacred scripture is clearly polytheistic. It is so conspicuous that there are more than one "Allah" in the Qur'an with the constant refrain of "WE created". If there have been only one "Allah" in the Qur'an, then we should not have read the plural pronouns of a deity who joins partners/associates with himself while forbidding his worshippers to recognize that fact.

There's only one way to settle this question of Islam's polytheism: who is the "WE" in the statement "WE created"? Is it Allah alone that created, or rather it was Allah and his associates? Who was Allah referring to as "WE"?

olabowale:
Unfortunately, all created things, Jesus, Muhammad (AS) are from this categories, hence they fall asleep, they do things of human, etc. Since they are elect of God, His messengers (AS) to mankind, they are at higher levels than than any one of us. Jesus performed miracles by the power given to him by God Almighty. Muhammad performed miracles by the power given to him by God Almighty.

Sadly, you're not being objective but dogmatically polarised. Muhammad was a created being, but Jesus was not. You can only say otherwise because you tend to judge everything else by Muhammad's tales. In the Bible, Jesus Himself said to the Jews that, "before Abraham was, I am!" (John 8:58 ) - meaning that He existed before Abraham did. Muhammad couldn't say that; and how then could you place them at par? And what miracles did Muhammad perform so much so as to bless even one soul? Far more than that, how could you even imagine for an instance that Muhammad is comparable to the righteous and holy Jesus when infact Islam's prophet was so sinful that he had to repent seventy times a day?

olabowale:
No christian criticizm that can make any true muslim talk ill of Jesus. I have more right over Jesus than any Christian, I accord him his rights and did not usurp the glory of God hy saying that Jesus is more or less than what he was. It is reasonable and make sense that Jesus is not God and not a son of God.

There are more Muslims I know who say unprintable things against Jesus Christ, the Cross and His work than you've ever met. You have no 'right over Jesus' at all other than the rascality your ignorance permits you to even utter that. It's not surprising then that you'd deny the deity of Jesus Christ as the Son of God, for that is what Muhammad denied in his career as a self-declared prophet and still could not tell what "Allah" would do to him in that day.

olabowale:
In the Bible Melchezdeket, king of Salem had no beginning, no end and no one know any of his family. Where is he today and this description of him make him more important in attribute than Jesus.

If Melchizedek was more important than Jesus, why did the Qur'an not recognize him as such? And why did Muhammad shy away from making any plain reference to the importance you're arrogantly stating?

olabowale:
There was no place in the Bible that Jesus was one on one with God, without the aid of angel. In this instance do'nt you think that Moses would be higher than Jesus (AS).

Without an angel, Jesus spoke one-on-one with the Father in John 11:42 - "And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me."

Without an angel, the Father spoke to Jesus in John 12:28 - "Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again."

And considering Moses and Jesus, in Hebrews 3 the Bible also says - "consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus. . . For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house." (vs. 1 & 3). In verses 5-6, it shows that Christ the Son is greater than Moses the servant. (Psst: Muhammad does not even appear among them, for God never sent him).

Does it not show now that you don't know the Bible as you claimed? I'm either convinced you failed your boasted WASC Examination on Bible study if you missed the above, or your claim was just empty so you could fill space on Nairaland.

olabowale:
If you are so lazy that you need a feel  good religion to make your life. Keep on with it. You will find out that the prerequisite of Paradise is not cheap and the doctrine inventor, Saul/Paul way will not safe you and it will come to Zero. Go back to Islam, you and your family and fear the fire of Hell, a horrible destination it is.

Thank you for noticing that the price of redemption for paradise is not cheap - but you know what? Christ paid it all for me with His own blood on the Cross - does that sound like a lazy, feel-good religion? That you obviously don't know what you're talking about would be more aptly suited to your case of laziness in scholarship. You still have an islamized hangover hate against Paul that you continue to miss the mark. Let me share with you a few of the reasons why my family finds joy in Christ the Saviour and can't return to Islam:

¤ The Saviour who sets free from sin is Himself sinless - Jesus Christ is His name (John 8:34-36);
   Muhammad indeed confessed that he was sinful to the point of having to repenting over seventy
   times in a day.

¤ We found the reality of love, joy and peace in Christ, and those replaced the uncertainty, hate, and
   fear previously experienced in Islam.

¤ In Christ we found the respect and dignity for every human being, especially for women; and we  would
   not need to worry now about the often-denied but very real maltreatment of women found in Islam.

¤ I enjoy the freedom and blessing of true morality and spirituality in faith, and now I don't have to worry
   about the sexual promiscuity encouraged in Islam under various Islamic laws.

A lazy, feel-good religion, you said? That's your opinion, but it's the only experience that has given me true meaning and purpose in life, and the assurance that heaven is my home when Jesus returns.

Okay, since you're still going round in circles, I'll come back after church and share with you a few things you missed.

Enjoy.

@Olabowale,

Babyosisi is right: learn the rules of good writing - I've hinted at this before. Don't harrass our intelligence with poor inputs and pander them off as 'knowledge' and 'complete lecture'.

Meanwhile, your assertion that those leaving Islam do so because they don't know what it is simply falls flat on its face. I know why I left Islam - I saw it for what it is. The angels do not need to perform any Christian "rituals" as you call it, because that would make them far less celestial or angelic than we should understand them. Which one of the "rituals" do you consider an angel would perform in Christian rites - water baptism, eating the Lord's Supper, or paying tithes? You're exposing the same thing you accuse others of - ignorance.

In Christianity, angels are given their exalted and respected identities, and for all that we're told that God has reserved them to be ministering spirits for the heirs of salvation. They do not need to make salah or pilgrimage - for what and why??

@TayoD,

Obviously we all have our various interpretations of Scripture and I'd like to respect the persuasions of others whatever they choose to believe or be persuaded by. However, I'd agree with you.

@Drusilla,

I'd rather say that the Scriptures considered so far point to the rapture of all true believers - no true Christian will be left behind at Christ's second coming.

It doesn't make sense that a majority of Christians will experience the resurrection while a minority of Christians would experience the rapture. Did God's Word say so? Not at all. Otherwise, you're suggesting that a minority of Christians will not be resurrected and a majority of Christians will not be raptured - which is not what God's word teaches.

That the resurrection of the dead is spoken of in more verses than of the rapture does not negate the fact of the event that all true Christians will together be raptured. The stated fact is that all true Christians who have slept in the Lord will first be raised; and together with all true Christians living at the second coming of Christ, will be raptured. It is a one-time event that will include all true Christians of all ages and not one will be left behind.

LAHLAXZA:
As far as stating that muslims are violent and try to take advantage of passive christians, that will be the figment of your imagination at work.

Do you live in another planet or what? Ajia23 and OlaAjia have not misbehaved in this regard, or your own figment just missed a its function?

LAHLAXZA:
And NO the Qur'än does not teach us to be deliberately bellicose in order to slap another person without provocation.

Good you noticed - it actually does worse than that, and I was only trying to be charitable by euphemizing the hate-instigations on the pages of the Qur'an.

@Bobbyaf,

Of course its very easy for you to convince yourself of that.   I have given you the word but each time you go around it.

You're taking your eyes off the scriptures and letting your thoughst run ahead of you. I'd kindly ask that you go back through the posts again - yours and mine and see if you're not missing the essential link. Only afterwards would I have the time to pick out what you keep missing if you still can't get it.

Well Dru,

There's no 'majority' or 'minority' about this issue.

All true Christians will be raptured at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

>>"There is no compulsion in religion" - would you sincerely believe that rote Islamic cliché after studying the life and career of Muhammad from the Hadith? Muhammad did not believe in what he preached and did not respect anyone's rights to their religion, and in all honesty you as a Muslim should know that.

>>Christians who follow Paul "invented religion", - typical of a biased Muslim mindset that fails to realise that Muhammad was actually the one who invented his own religion. If you had cause to doubt Paul's visions, what better reasons would there be to believe Muhammad's visions at all?

>>In Paradise it will be felicity, the enjoyment that will be far superior to what can be found on earth - what kind of felicity are you talking about? The one where women are not respected but become the sex objects for jihadists in paradise longing for their reward of 72 virgins?

>>Christianity is not a religion that is familiar to or the religion brought by Isa ibn Mariam (Jesus, son of Mary, (AS)). - Ok, now I know you just have a natural gift to blab about what you know nothing of. Jesus didn't bring Christianity, and yet the Qur'an recognizes that He did and even asks Christians to believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Did you miss that part in the Qur'an?

>>Get me an original New Testament, no, get me the one written in the language that it was revealed to Jesus. You will not be able to provide an answer to my challenge. You have not seen one yourself - As long as you can't be rational about this, could I ask that you turn your gaze a little closer home to the Qur'an where it says that "Allah" sent down the Gospel to Jesus? So, what original Gospel did "Allah" send down and confirm that Muslims today know nothing about? It is not Christians you should disbelieve - rather, it is the "Allah" of the Qur'an who has failed to give the 'original Gospel' to Muhammad before he started telling his tales.

>>However, if you examine the Al Qur'an you will find that it is a single speaker which is the Lord of the worlds. - I don't mean to disrespect your age, sir; but that is a bogus lie and any sincere reader of the Qur'an knows that Muhammad was the speaker of a good section of it, and not "Allah".

olabowale:
I am in my fifties and I am sure that I will not reject with total rejection any opportunity to marry a younger woman, as young as the allowable age in any culture as long as she reached tha age of maturity. I find it very strange that you people of Nigeria, knowing fully well how sexually immoral the majority of the people of that nation are begins to use your cursed tongue to criticised the beloved of the Almighty. may you seek repentance before you die, otherwise may you receive the rewards of your action from the One who truly Judge.

You know what? God rewards those who expose child molesters and hypocrites. A man over 50 years old who claims to be a prophet and yet married and had sex with an underaged kid of 9 years old is nothing but a pedophile - culture or no culture. I have sought repentance from the excuse to call such a prophet "the beloved of the Almighty", for the true God does not endorse such immorality. Have you wondered why the beloved of "Allah" still did not know what would happen to him on the day of judgement?

>>Have you ever noticed how people all over the world are coming into Islam without so much missionary or propagatory work. Okay, did you mean that they were actually coming out from Islam after they suddenly discovered it for what it actually is?? Read Ahmad Al Qataani's frank and forthright confession again:

“In every hour, 667 Muslims convert to Christianity. Everyday, 16,000 Muslims convert to Christianity. Ever year, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity."

Did you get that?? Every year 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity - and that's a Muslim cleric confessing that. You may shake your head and disagree with him; but hey - my name is malik, and I'm one of those 6 million Muslim converts to Christianity. . . and if you count my entire family, you get a full picture of the statistics. Well done, sir!

Bobbyaf:
So in other words the rapture but not necessarily the secret rapture. I have no problem with the use of the word rapture, because indeed there is going to be a "caughting up", if there is such a term, lol, of all the saints when Jesus actually comes.

I'm not an advocate of a 'secret' rapture and have tried to maintain a consistent position of what I'm persuaded the Scriptures show me.

Drusilla:
Since you have changed the traditional definition of the rapture, I can agree with it.
What however will we now call what people usually refer to as the rapture?
Those alive at the coming of the Lord, going up in the air to the Lord?

I'm not aware I changed anything in the use of the term 'rapture', nor do I know much about what others mean by the term. As stated earlier in my replies, all Christians will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Perhaps I should break this down:

(a) the dead in Christ will rise first

(b) together with those still alive

(a) + (b) will together be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

It's a one-time open event and not a 'secret' rapture.

Precisely.

The rapture will include all Christians - both those who have slept in the Lord, and those alive when it occurs. It's a one-time event that will include all, not just a few.

Venison

Ikeja



M

Haran



T

Attrition

Iceland



G

derision

England



Y

Ok, I understand you.

It seems more convincing that, every Christian (those truly saved or born again) will be resurrected, rather than a majority.

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed - I Cor. 15:51.

However, I'm persuaded that the rapture is for all Christians who are truly saved - past, present and future. This is not a small event for a few; but rather one that is for all believers at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord - I Thes. 4:17.

So, both the resurrection and the rapture are for all true Christians rather than a majority or a few.

none.


Molue or danfo?

Finland


R

_{I dunno, hope u aint feeling} s[b]w[/b]in[b]d[/b]led

treason

Graham Island


A

reason

_{there she goes again!} [b]d[/b]re[b]s[/b]s _{this thing up}.

Holland


D