₦airaland Forum

4. “Of that day no one knows, not the angels, nor the son,  but only the Father”. Mark 13:32.

Consider these:

Joh 5:19  So Jesus answered them by saying, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, the Son is able to do nothing of Himself (of His own accord); but He is able to do only what He sees the Father doing, for whatever the Father does is what the Son does in the same way [in His turn].
Joh 5:20  The Father dearly loves the Son and discloses to (shows) Him everything that He Himself does. And He will disclose to Him (let Him see) greater things yet than these, so that you may marvel and be full of wonder and astonishment.

Mat 11:27  All things have been entrusted and delivered to Me by My Father; and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Son except the Father, and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son deliberately wills to make Him known.

As I have explained earlier, the Son is the manifestation of the Father, appearing in human form as Christ Jesus. Everything is known to the FATHER, who wrote the script. But He did not make it such that everything will be "known" by the Son in the script.

As John 5:19 clearly states, JESUS WAS FOLLOWING A SCRIPT! The only thing he can do is what the script-writer had determined or allowed him to do.

Let me illustrate with a movie analogy. A re-enactment of Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes Mysteries. Set in the early 20th century, would we expect the kind of high-tech gadgets that are available in this 21st century to be employed in the script? No, of course not! Even when the Sherlock Holmes actor KNOWS that by programming a hidden camera into a wristwatch as an embedded nanotechnology system, he can solve the mystery at hand, does he do that? So, isn't it clear that the script-writer knows what could have saved the day, but the SON (the actor in THAT form of acting) does not?

On to Question 5.

3. Jesus makes it clear that the father has the same relationship with us (being our father) as with Jesus (being his father). This is emphasized by the text in Jn 20:17. Even after Jesus had died and risen,  there remains a clear difference between the two as Peter writes - "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" - 1 Pet. 1: 3

I already explained what a Father's role is in the development of a son's character. The FATHER Figure does not necessarily mean sexual progeny, it means someone from whom one is DERIVED. John 8:44 records Jesus saying to a group of dissenting Jews "You are of your father the devil", and this was because their actions were derivative of the devil! Just like Michelle Ferre, acting as Christine, a beautiful CIA undercover agent, also acting according to the script, will have Jackie Chan for a FATHER. BUT NOT the Jackie Chan who is a CIA Agent! It will be the Jackie Chan that wrote the movie script.

God became the FATHER of the Jews starting from when he adopted Abraham, and he revealed himself as El-Shaddai in Genesis 17:1. El-Shaddai translates as "the multi-breasted God" meaning that he had more than enough for anyone at any point in time. That is a real Father. When Jesus spoke to Mary, he spoke as one who was in the cast of mankind, and also following the script of life. And Peter referred to him as the FATHER of CHRIST. Very true! Because Christ came to do his will, perfectly. That is what real sons do.

On to question 4.

Digression:

Deep Sight:
Maven - Yes, i dey hear you.

But in all of this do spare a second to reflect if you are coming up with ingenious explanations that negate that which is obvious within the scripture i quoted. In other words i hope its not a situation of - no matter how clearly scripture negates your ideas, you will find a round-about  explantion that suits you.

Be honest with yourself in reflecting on if that is the case. In doing so one good parametre will be to ask yourself if ANY scripture that has EVER been presented to you contradicting your views has ever changed your perspective, or if you have rather found ways to explain such sciptures to suit your perspectives.

This demands self honesty.

I am still listening. Ride one.

Sincerely and honestly speaking, I often have problems with attending Church whenever I am in a new location (e.g. I didn't go to church yesterday after my arrival ), and God knows that I am telling the truth. Why is that? The truth is the truth is the truth, not many will say the truth, and I examine all things carefully. When I was in College, there were many things my pastor said and i disagreed with. I would discuss with him in private, and many times we would reach my consensus. There were times we wouldn't, and we would agree to disagree. There have even been things said by Atheists and other unbelievers on this thread that I agree with. Why? Because I can see that it is true! And I have NEVER seen anywhere in the Bible that contradicts my views about God coming in the flesh, being alike to a man acting in his own movie, or reading Bill Clinton's autobiography. At least yet.

I resume with Question 3.

2. In the event that you attempt the lame line that he was only saying that because he was here on earth in the physical, then what about Jesus' assertion that he would ascend to be sitted on the right hand side of the father? after being resurrected? This makes it abundantly clear that he is not the same entity at whose rigfht hand he sits. It is made clear in the Gospel that he rose and sat at the right hand side of the Father - Mark 16:19.

Let me start with this Bible verse.

Exo 15:6  Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.
Exo 15:12  Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.
Deu 33:2  And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
Psa 16:8  I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
Psa 16:11  Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.


The English language is so weak that meanings have been lost in translation. Thank God for verses like Exo 15:6 and many others that show that the "right hand" of God does not mean towards the eastern cartesian coordinates of his upper limbs!

The RIGHT HAND of God means the place of assurance, security, hope, salvation, power, might, glory, favour etc. i.e. anything good that one can benefit from God, emanates from His right hand!

Jesus "seated at the right hand of God" means that the benefits of our salvation are to be obtained THROUGH Him IN GOD.

As for my Jackie Chan analogy, that is like seeing Jackie Chan on the streets in Hollywood and I scream "Jackie Chan!!! Please sign me an autograph!!" and he smiles and asks "Which movie was your favourite?", and then we get to start talking about His character in the movie "Who am I", about the cool Black-OPs CIA dude. The REASON I am interested in the Jackie Chan guy I am talking to, and any autographs I get from his, is only because of His RIGHT HAND, which is the movie character. If the black OPs guy were not on Jackie Chan's RIGHT HAND, who would give two scoobies (viaro!  ) about that Chinese guy? I believe my analogy has sufficed in this case.

Question 3 in next post.

@DeepSight:

Biblically your assertion that the son is the father collapses very very easily indeed as we will see:

1. Jesus positively asserted that the FATHER was greater than him - Jn 14:28

Let me quote it in perspective (from the AMPLIFIED) so we can understand

Joh 14:28 You heard Me tell you, I am going away and I am coming [back] to you. If you [really] loved Me, you would have been glad, because I am going to the Father; for the Father is greater and mightier than I am.
Joh 14:29 And now I have told you [this] before it occurs, so that when it does take place you may believe and have faith in and rely on Me.

This is just like trying to compare the Black OPs CIA agent who was stranded in the African veldt with massive amnesia, to the real Jackie Chan guy who wrote the script? OF COURSE the real Jackie Chan is FAR GREATER and MIGHTIER than that guy in the movie, even if they have the same name! See, for instance, Arnold Schwarzenegger who has acted so many movies, and even has the might of mind to serve as Governor of California, as opposed to his characters who, at the maximum, cannot live for more than 90 minutes or so, and they have to follow a script gullibly no matter what they "want" to do? WHO is greater, then?

Jesus was clearly saying that the disciples ought to be happier, because he was soon stepping out of that restrictive human form, exiting the MOVIE called Earth-life and going to the Father, going off-stage as it were. They ought to be glad if they loved him, because he was stepping out of their (similar) limitations to a point where he could help them when he returns AS the Holy Spirit (as he said, I am coming back to you).

Question 2 in the next post.

@DeepSight: I'm home now. Let me respond to your posts by my understanding. Please allow me to answer one by one to all the presented views so that our discussion does not lose track. I will use multiple posts so that each one won't be too long.

Php 2:4  Let each of you esteem and look upon and be concerned for not [merely] his own interests, but also each for the interests of others.
Php 2:5  Let this same attitude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus: [Let Him be your example in humility:]
Php 2:6  Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained,
Php 2:7  But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being.

Prolegomena:
If we can agree that Earth is a temporal place with respect to Heaven, and mankind is utterly finite with respect to God, then we see that every occurrence on earth is very much like the happenings in a book or a movie: pre-determined by the author or script-wright, but each character in the book/movie is oblivious of that fact.

Now, let us consider an autobiography or self-directed documentary, in which the author himself features. Truly, the finality of the matter is known and determined by this author in reality, but that does not prevent the reader / observer from having a thumping heart, or the other story-characters from frenzied actions, as the excitement in the story grows.

In light of this, I will start by saying that this side of existence is relatively virtual, with respect to eternity. As seen in Php 2:4-7 above, Jesus was an "actor" in the "reality show" called Earth. In his essential nature outside the "movie" Earth, he is still himself, God.

It cannot be seriously asserted by anybody that Jesus is the Father. I crafted that question carefully because of the trinitarian problem of identification whereby all three are said to be God, but never identified as being one another: in other words - is the son the Holy spirit as well?

You keep referring to "the three of them", which is an assumption that you have made, thinking I believe in the Trinity. I do not. I repeat, God is not 3-in-1, He is 1-as-3. i.e. A Singleton, who, relative to mankind, has been seen (and still is seen) in three various perspectives.


Analogy: Jackie Chan's Who am I, a 1998 Jackie Chan film (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Am_I%3F) which he wrote, starred in, and also directed is a good example here! Since he wrote the movie, I will say He FATHERED it, c.f. the role of God (as) the Father. As he starred in it, that means his own script "gave birth to his character" i.e. He did EXACTLY what the script described for his role (that is what SONship is all about!). Directing the movie is like the role of the Holy Spirit, whom the Bible says, knows the things of God (1 Cor 2:11-13), and is the one qualified to GUIDE us into all truth, as God is truth.
Would it then be right for an observer to ask "How can Jackie Chan condescend to such a level as to allow himself lose his memory (as it happened in the movie)? Since he wrote the script, why couldn't he let it all be an easy, smooth & magical macho ride?". Valid question, but then who would buy such a movie?  


In light of the analogy above, if we say that

1. Jackie Chan (the real guy you can eat dinner with),

2. his movie-character (A black-OPs CIA agent also named Jackie Chan) and

3. the movie director (an ambitious guy named Jackie Chan)

are all the same JACKIE CHAN, would we be wrong?

So why is it hard to understand that God wrote a script called Eternity, and one of the seasons of that long movie is called Earth, and he decided to feature himself in it? Some minutes into that season, he allows the "himself" character to die (as was planned from the start) and the script goes on?

And that, exactly, is the case we have right here. Jesus is a projection of God into human form (a la projection of Jackie Chan into the TV screen), and I will employ this analogy to answer your questions in my next post.

@JeSoul: sister, your last post is heart-breaking

@Tudor: In case you didn't notice, all the polls on Nairaland seemed to malfunction one or two days ago, I think. It seems they were all reset or something. And thanks for voting YES again. I can see you just did.

@JeSoul: No be like that o. My grandma used to say (She is Yoruba) "Oun ti eniyan o ba ni je, won kii fi run-mu" i.e. Don't sniff what you won't eat. I extended the saying to "Don't eat what you won't swallow, and don't swallow what you won't digest". I know how I can be, so I try to keep detached as much as possible. Noble cause sha

@Validator: Your opinion has been validated. Thanks.

@JeSoul: You know I love you! Abeg o, no let my Hunnybunny catch any of these Nairaland guys o! LOL I hand DeepSight and co WILLINGLY over to you and other virtuous ladies here

Lol Analytical & Image123, you guys are a bunch of hyped wholesale xmas fun! and there was I, thinking I was clearing the air. Next time, dont worry!

Thanks for sharing your views, DeepSight. I will reply from my laptop when I get back home.

@aletheia: thanks. But i never said Jesus was not worshipped or is not to be worshipped. I was dividing between the Word and Jesus the man, with respect to requiring our worship. Deepsight, to whom I was speaking, does not agree with the Divine participation of Jesus.

You are welcome mito. [redacted]

I won't tell you what to do, but he's obviously an aimless lover, he is working on your psyche without yielding any commitment, so it is obvious that when he gets whatever he wants, he will leave you in the dust and seek another prey. It's your call, go for it if you like him.

@OP: Does the guy show any signs of shyness or low self esteem? If he does, and you really like him, you may need to be patient with him.

If he's not like that kinda guy, he's just playing around. There's no use going into a relationship with a guy who doesn't know what he wants or where he is going.

@mito: There's nothing wrong with you. I think you need to talk to him. Ask him "What exactly do you want from me?" and see his response. That will be a good starter. Lighten up, girl!

Yes sir

nuclearboy:
@Mavenbox:

All the above is a background. I'd like to treat issues like Destiny, Holiness, Church attendance, Tithes, Marital and other "emotional" relationships etc, providing for each a purely Biblical perspective. Could you please help kick off with "Christian emotional and physical relationships up to and including marriage and the place of both spouses in the union"? Thanks.

All right, bro. I may not write a lot at the moment but I can say a bit for now:

From a bird's eye view, the simplest perspective to Christian relationships is to compare with God's relationship with man

Wooing => Jesus' teaching, living by example
Proposal => Jesus' death and resurrection, offer of eternal life
Acceptance => Salvation by faith in Christ
Courtship => A steady walk with the Holy Spirit
Going out, spending time together to understand one another => Diligent Word Study
Constant communication => Prayer
Marriage => Jesus' return for the Church

Considering each of these things carefully will answer ANY question about relationships in Christianity. e.g. there is a level of communication we can have with Christ now, but the deepest level of "intimacy", spiritually speaking, will be when he returns for us. That makes the entire NO pre-marital sex issue very clear (some Christians have stopped preaching this).
1Co 13:12  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

My analogy as presented also answers to other questions like dealing with relationships: just think about anything that has to do with relationships, and answer: will God deal with a Christian THIS way? Etc Etc

Will talk more later

@DeepSight: Interesting. I kinda guessed. . .

@Horus: I Takiti (somersault) and laugh in Ekiti

@Olaadegbu: Haba, Egbon we have already established earlier on in the thread that it was the shepherds that came on the night he was born. The wise men from the east came much later: having travelled for months at least (since the day they saw the star). Jesus was a toddler then, so what are the chances that they were still living in the stable? haba! Animals live in a stable joo. They were in a proper house by then, I suppose.

OLAADEGBU:
Was it in a manger, a stable, a house or all of the above?

Manger: (n) A container (usually in a barn or stable) from which cattle or horses feed
Stable: (n) A farm building for housing horses or other livestock

It was in a manger, inside a stable, which is a kind of house

Congrats, Valoderah, on your "Best Webmaster Award"! We always knew you would make us proud!

@kpolli: LMAO that was what I was coming here to say. Shiorr, After 2 years?

@OP: Happens to everyone, only in varying proportions, and some know how to hide it better than others

Thanks for this thread, nuclearboy!

I thought this was about an animal rights activist who delivered a snail from those that wanted to kill it for fun?

But it's another dumb propaganda to spread fear, the tool of the devil.

Rather than new church buildings, I think we should develop spiritual social responsibility: orphanages, public shelters, feeding houses etc.

@ravenzord: Thanks!  Yeah, As I said before,

@delagasky/chipmunky: i think many guys combine like 3 or 4 of the traits actually. Few guys have 2 and some kinda strange guys hav only 1 of the traits! Your best buddie can tell you which ones. But dont forget, its just my silly theory.

@cuteromntc: Sorry, I hardly come here to follow notifications, I spend almost all my Nairaland-time on the religion boards thrashing man-made myths and expounding my faith by my amateur apologetics So i must have responded in such a hurry that I didn't see your statements about NY and contacting you.

chipmunkey:
@Maven no matter how much you try, there will always be a disgruntled person on your thread.

And that was why I said disgruntled. Cheese! I was responding to Chipmunkey jare. And when I said IMPROVE, I meant to make you have more restraint in such unnecessary attacks of other's posts, seeing that those who did such on YOUR OWN thread, you reacted violently at them. I was there so I know, I didn't comment but I read it.

Okay, I apologize. can we please bury the hatchet? This thread has veered off course!!

My honeybunny won't like me stating any such contact info here, or contacting you, but NO i dont live in NY. In fact, Im in 9ja now thanks to the hols.

Best Regards!

*hurries back to the religion thread https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-369330.0.html*

Deep Sight:
Alright: Let's streamline issues; Is Jesus THE FATHER?

Clarify for me.

This is a "tricky" question because it depends on who's asking. Speaking from the physical angle, Jesus is not the Father. In actuality, the Father is the same person as Jesus.

If you look into a mirror, is what we see in that mirror YOU? No, it's not you, but for a barber who looks into the mirror to trim your hair, he says "You are getting bald here", pointing at the mirror. This would be confusing for someone who has never seen a mirror before, but looking away from the mirror into reality, we will see the same "baldness" appearing on the client's head. If we keep staring in the mirror, we get a PROJECTION of the client. Being the SON of God does not only indicate childbirth or progeny through Mary like many think. The same way we say someone is a "chip off the old block" i.e. the Father has been repeated in the Son, is the way Jesus is the earth-ward projection of the Father, doing His will in entirety on earth!

Joh 10:36  Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Joh 10:37  If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Joh 10:38  But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

If you look from outside the mirror into the mirror, you know that Jesus the man, is not the Father. He is the Son. If you consider that its only a mirror, you understand that Jesus, the Father and the Spirit, are revelations of God's various interactions with man through eternity.

Deep Sight:
Just answer me this: Is Jesus THE FATHER.

MARK MY WORDS: I do not ask if he is God, i ask if he is THE FATHER.

LOL Bros you go chill na!   Please be a bit patient, I'm in Nigeria at the moment (The hols are here, yippee!) and this GLO 3G connection is wack. I just saw this when I tried to post again. The post that appeared like a reply to you, I had already typed it up. Im quite a slow typer. THIS (above) is your response.

As for the "was God", the word ἦν ēn (ane) means agree with, take charge of, hold and use.

Deep Sight:
I hope u recognise that in the above you have conceded that Jesus is not god, but perhaps some sort of Primus Inter pares

No, sir!!! I keep saying, Jesus was God expressed in human form! Agree with, take charge of, hold and use. Isn't that what the Word did when the Word became flesh?

The Word AGREED with God, because God is ONE in agreement!

Mar 12:29  And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
1Jn 5:7  For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (I am not debating Trinitarianism here, i am using this to indicate that they are in agreement)

Understand that, assuming I was a perfect person with no guile, my words must conform with my person, which must conform with what I say. I AGREE, so to speak, with my own words and deeds and literature! It does not place one above the other primus inter pares.