₦airaland Forum

solite3:
no Jesus has not stop working because Jesus is not dead

Was one of his works preaching as well? Which also stopped when he died?

M

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solite3:
John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.


one of the work of Jesus is prayer or intercession, Jesus meant that he must do the work he had to do or else when death comes he cannot do it. this clearly mean that when one is dead he cannot do what he used to do on earth.

I would respond to your comments later but this can't wait.

Look at what you just wrote , that Jesus' intercession for us stopped after his death. I have put to you and will do again. That some part A is part of B, does not mean all A is part B, or A is always B, or vice versa.
Jesus is still working .
We were about the saints now you have moved to Jesus. Is that your believe? That even Jesus has stopped working?
That's the problem with private interpretation of the Bible. Even the devil quoted the Bible to Jesus, who is Word of God.

solite3:
Solomon was speaking base on earthly peception. Simply put
the dead has no knowledge of things going on under the sun (on earth) their memory (things that makes them prominent) is forgotten.

That is why you should leave your earthly perception (and its pitfalls) and go for facts. Abraham, the rich man and Lazarus are facts. With their story you don't need conjectures.

solite3:
Angels cannot pray or intercede for Christians. Infact Christians has more access to God than angels. Christians has a higher authority than angels so angels cannot pray or intercede for them.

Whether they have higher authority or not is not the topic. The issue is can they and the saints pray for you. I have showed actual passages of where they have prayed, interceded and Jesus even warned that little children should not be despised because their angels .

Mt 18:10
"See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.

solite3:
I am not wrong. Even if angels can do that in the past, they can do it again.

Okay you have changed you mind from great tendency to great certainty?

solite3:
Such Service that is done to God by the saints in heaven is not labour but on the other hand prayer is labour .

First of all thank God you agree they perform services to God.

Do you agree that when Moses and Elijah appeared in Transfiguration they were at service to God?

Do you also agree that when holy ones appeared to many when Christ rose, were also at the service of God? Mt 27:53

So they are still at service to God and his people. And we know that in the Catholic Church.

solite3:
Colossians 4:12
Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete
in all the will of God.


Revelation 14:13
And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

All girls are human beings does not mean all human beings are girls and vice versa
That some prayers are seen as labour does not mean all prayers are labour.

Jesus said at Gethsemane Mt 26:41
Keep watch and pray that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

This shows that it is the body that labours to pray. When one is free from the body it won't be labour to pray. As you know the soul is a spirit

solite3:
the phrase 'under the sun' refers to the physical world
a dead man can no more partake in anything done under the earth, they don't even know what is going on, in the earth, their memory is gone.

Luke 16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.

You cant ask someone without memory to remember. So you interpretation is wrong.

solite3:
there is great tendency that the angel of the Lord is no ordinary angel, it is one of the ways Christ manifested before his incarnation.

Great tendency indeed. The angel was speaking to the Lord of Host for goodness sake. Well because it does not align with your thinking, it is a great tendency. The passage is clear where the angel of the Lord was speaking and where the Lord was speaking. Well in your words, there is a tendency that you accept that you may be wrong.

solite3:
again it was clearly stated that the person Jacob struggled with God and he was blessed that angel of the Lord was probanly God not a mere angel.

So you accept that there is a tendency that you are wrong.

solite3:
they are asleep in the sense that they have ceased from any earthly labor that includes prayers etc.
Jesus did not pray to them or seek their help did he?

Ceased from prayers you say? Look at below and see that they dont only pray, they also serve
Rev 5
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

solite3:
I can hardly understand the things you wrote bit let me explain what ecclesiastes says about the dead.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

the phrase 'under the sun' refers to the physical world
a dead man can no more partake in anything done under the earth, they don't even know what is going on, in the earth, their memory is gone.





Luke 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

this verse proves he was referring to angels not dead saints.

Angels pray, don't say what you don't know.

there is great tendency that the angel of the Lord is no ordinary angel, it is one of the ways Christ manifested before his incarnation.


again it was clearly stated that the person Jacob struggled with God and he was blessed that angel of the Lord was probanly God not a mere angel.


they are asleep in the sense that they have ceased from any earthly labor that includes prayers etc.
Jesus did not pray to them or seek their help did he?

Much grammar.
The simple question is how do you reconcile these two bible verses below with respect to the dead knowing anything & reward
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Luke 16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.

Glycolysis:
I ask you again ;
HOW DOES MARY RELATES TO REVELATION 12 VS 2 ?

Glycolysis:
The same way Jesus did not come to the world through the genetic components of Mary !
Jesus don't have the genes of Mary,the ovums of Mary was not involved in Jesus formation,the same way her blood in her circulatory system did not make contact with that of Jesus..
Yea,the circulatory system of the mother & that of child don't come in contact during foetal development,if it does the blood pressure will be too high for that baby,& could lead to complications.
Hence,the process of diffusion & osmosis in necessary for the child during development..
The key relationship between the child & the mother is the exchange of nutrients from the mother to the child & waste products from the child to the mother through the placenta with the aid of the umbilical cord from the child....

From the above,if we are to go with you views,then Jesus don't even have a mother on earth !
And that is true...
Jesus NEVER referred to Mary as his mother because Jesus don't have any gene of Mary in him ..
Jesus understood these...not even the blood of Mary flows in Him.

UNLESS YOU & I WILL GO TO A TOPIC THAT YOU WILL NOT BE COMFORTABLE WITH & THAT BLEW UP THE WHOLE BELIEVE YOU EVER KNEW ABOUT MARY & THE LORD JESUS CHRIST !

Luke1: 41-43
41When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42In a loud voice she exclaimed, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43And why am I so honored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Elizabeth filled with the Holy Ghost , called Mary Mother of the Lord.
And dare speak against the Holy Ghost, saying Mary is not the Mother of Jesus. What spirit is disturbing you?


If you don't accept a simple passage like Luke 1:41-43 . It would be a wonder for you to accept Rev 12, that is full of symbols

solite3:
did he say they were not dead?

you are not making sense, who is talking about separation from God,


Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

the dead have no knowledge of things done under the sun, eccelsiates is speaking of physical death.

You are focusing on physical existence that ends with death. But spiritual existence continues. I am referring to ones spiritual existence which Ecclesiastes 9:5 does not talk about.

For definitely after death, the soul which is a spirit has knowledge and reward. Are you contesting this? See this bolded part in the Luke 16:25 below.

Luke 16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.

solite3:
@ bold, it does not. it is the angels of God that rejoice over one sinner that repents

Luke 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

Luke 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Souls were not in heaven until Our Lord Jesus Christ opened it for them. So now that souls are in heaven. It refers to all those in heaven simple.

solite3:
angels can carry prayers to God but they do not pray for or answer any prayer.

Angels pray, don't say what you don't know.

Zechariah 1:12-21
Then the angel of the LORD said, "O LORD of hosts, how long will You have no compassion for Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with which You have been indignant these seventy years?" The LORD answered the angel who was speaking with me with gracious words, comforting words.

Luke 2:13-14
13And suddenly there appeared with the angel a great multitude of the heavenly host, praising God and saying: 14“Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to men on whom His favor rests!”

Gensis 32:26-29

26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.”
But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”
27 The man asked him, “What is your name?”
“Jacob,” he answered.
28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel,[f] because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”
29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”
But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.

solite3:
see who is quoting blindly, which role? the saints who are dead are asleep they can do no work.

So the ones who appeared during the Transfiguration were asleep too. Or the ones came out of their graves and appeared to many at Jesus Resurrection.
So you believe the souls now in heaven, are not praising God but asleep? Or is it that you don't know there are souls in heaven?

solite3:
the Transfiguration was ordained by God to glorify Jesus.
Jesus never conjure Elijah and Moses or pray with or pray to them.
read Isaiah 8:19 it speaks of conjuring or seeking the dead or praying to or with the dead which Jesus never did.

Wow! Elijah and Moses were not conjured. Sure because that sounds evil. Well we are not also conjuring anybody.
We are simply asking our brethren in heaven to pray with us and for us simple.

resurgent4oodua:
You are destined to be poor. It's written all over your post and the way you think.

There are billionaires (USD) with large families. Don't fall into the narrative that you must have a small family to be rich.

Any family planning that supports the killing of children in the womb, is evil.
Many use this as a ploy to okay abortion

I dream of a large family.

Wealth and happiness are not mutually exclusive. You can be poor and be happy, You can be rich and unhappy. That being said, some rich countries are dying out.

bloodofthelamb:
What are you saying, confusing yourself with scriptures? Are there not dead saints during the days of apostle Paul, Peter and John? Why didn't they find it appropriate to seek their intercession and prayers?

It is clear from scriptures that Paul requested intercession from the living and not from the dead who have gone to be with the Lord.

To be dead in the physical,simply means to be away from the body. Those in heaven keep worshiping God And God does not see his people that have left the body as dead. Hence He says he is the God of Abraham, God of Isaac, God of Jacob. And that would be His name forever.(Exodus 3:15) And that He is not the God of the dead.

Jesus himself spoke with those whom you called dead, during the transfiguration It is important to note that the event happen while He was in prayer).

Luke 9:28-31
28 About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain to pray. 29 As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. 30 Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus.


As you have rightly said are the Saints with the Lord. Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their angels have guaranteed access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10). The Saints also have guaranteed access.

David, even made use of those who spiritually or physically stand before God in prayers.
Thus, in Psalm 103 we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20–21). And in the opening verses of Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" . (Do you think the angels heard David?do think the saints hear? )

Saints in heaven are with the Our Lord, Jesus Christ.

In Rev 5. You see the twenty four elders praying and worshiping, you would even see them offering the prayers of all God's people with incense. You even see one of the elders consoling John the beloved.

The place I love most, those in heaven and on earth in joint prayers
Rev 5:13-14
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:

“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”

14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

The Apostles creed, we received from the early Church clearly states "We believe in the Communion of Saints"

xproducer:
=========

"But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless." - Titus 3:9

Peace and blessings!

St Paul saw intercession as very useful.

..I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance…” Philippians 1:19


2 Corinthians 1:11
as you help us by your prayers.

Matthew 5:37
37 But let [a]your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

Well, we are fighting an enemy, that would want to limit the help we can receive by the intercession of the saints and seeking to confuse those who rightly make use of it.

xproducer:
+++++

Since you cannot read the heart and mind, you do not truly know what my intent was in citing 1 Timothy 2:5.

There is no argument here... we are to pray without ceasing (1 Thessalonians 5:17) to the Almighty GOD (there is only One), through and in the name of His Son, The Lord JESUS CHRIST... the only One through, and because of Whom we might be saved and be heard. It's that straightforward.

Deviation from this, is typically doctrine of men, not of GOD.

Peace and blessings.

So some questions
So what is your intent?

Are you against asking for Mary and the saints for intercession? Because they now with Christ and are not on earth?

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Do you think asking Mary and the saints in heaven who are hidden in Christ to pray us or to use St. Paul words in Rom 15:30 " strive with us in prayers is wrong?

Do you think scripturally that death has separated them from Christ?

Do you think they on aware of what goes on earth, when the scripture says there is great rejoicing in heaven when one sinner repents Luke 15:7?

To whose profit would it be for us to strive alone, when we can have heavenly backup?

“…I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance…” Philippians 1:19

Ignorance is a tool of the devil (Hosea 4:6)

We know from experience that the prayers of the saints are efficacious, but James 5:16 confirms why it so. Remember nothing unclean shall enter into the Kingdom of God. So those in heaven are righteous and are our allies. Pls make use of them. Ask to them to strive with you in prayers.


Rev 8:3
And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God.

xproducer:
++++++++++++++++++++++
There are truly no conflicts in the Bible (even though some perceive some parts so).

Asking people to pray to GOD for you is not a bad thing. In fact, we are encouraged to pray for one another (1 Samuel 12:23, Matthew 5:44, James 5:16... "The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much." ), etc.

The context within which the Apostle Paul refers to the Lord Jesus Christ as the one (only) mediator between God and men in 1 Tim 2:5, is that of - the only Peacemaker, the only Atonement (Acts 4:12); the only One by, because of, and through Whom prayer can even be made (Ephesians 5:20), without which we would be in enmity with GOD (Ephesians 2:15-17), stemming from the fall of man.

Thank GOD for so great salvation!

So you see that, you brought 1 Timothy 2:5 as though it contradicts the Hail Mary prayer. While in actually fact the same the St Paul who wrote that verse, asked others for prayer. So an interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:5 that speaks against request for intercessory prayers is a false interpretation.

...I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance…” Philippians 1:19

St James adds
.Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. James 5:16

xproducer:
+++++

Indeed - "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" -1 Timothy 2:5


Keeping the Word is paramount - "And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” - Luke 11:27-28

I have just taken some verses in which St Paul asked for prayers from others. Does his request for others to pray for him conflict with where same St Paul says 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

“…I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance…” Philippians 1:19

“…strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf…” Romans 15:30

Romans 15:31-32, “Pray that…my service in Jerusalem may be acceptable to the saints there, so that by God’s will I may come to you with joy and together with you be refreshed.”

2 Corinthians 1:10-11
10 He has delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us again. On him we have set our hope that he will continue to deliver us, 11 as you help us by your prayers.


Waiting for your response

solite3:
where is the error?
how can you imitate christ when you don't do his word?


the issue is that man should not seek to the dead which means consulting, praying through or to the dead.

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

Jesus never seek to any dead but he prayed to the father do you truly imitate christ?

you shouldn't seek to the dead but the living.
is there any evidence the dead saints can pray for you? now you agree that the saints which are dead are dead.
no need of going round in circles.



James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.


it is clear that James was not talking about the dead saints but believers praying for each other within the local church.

Paul was not writing to dead saints but to living saints so it can't be applied to dead saints

God does not see them as dead.
Exodus 3:15 God also said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers--the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob--has sent me to you.' "This is my name forever, the name you shall call me from generation to generation.

God is not the God of the Dead, but He is the God of Abraham, God of Isaac, and God of Jacob", why are you insisting they are dead when God said He is their God and that He is not the God of the Dead?

The problem is that you considered those who have died in Christ as dead, as though they are in the grave but they are with Christ.

Simple question , are the souls of those who have died in Christ separated from Him by death? Or are they with Him or hidden in Him?

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Now Luke 15:7 says there is great rejoicing in heaven when a sinner repents. So this means that the saints in heaven are aware of what is happening on earth.

Now Mt 18:10 says
"See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.

The communion of saints have their God given role. I hope you get to understand this and stop quoting blindly. For a every truth the devil has its counterfeit. We are taking about heavenly allies and you are talking about the devil's counterfeit of Is 8:19.

How come you didn't accuse Jesus of that at the Transfiguration or the holy ones who appeared to many when Jesus resurrected with your quote of Is 8:19?

solite3:
you shouldn't seek to the dead but the living.
is there any evidence the dead saints can pray for you? now you agree that the saints which are dead are dead.
no need of going round in circles.

How many times would I have to remind you that Jesus spoke to some you called dead during the Transfiguration. The saints are living in Christ.

solite3:
the spirit of error is leading you on.
did I say their spirits are dead? do spirits die? stop twisting words I didn't say.
didn't you hear Peter say David was both dead and buried what are you arguing about?

what are the works Jesus meant?

John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do

what works was Jesus talking about? you quote scripture you don't understand tell me, Jesus sacrificed his life for ma,
is there anyone that can equal Jesus not to talk of doing better than him?

1 Corinthians 11:1
Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.
imitate Jesus yes, did Jesus build images and bowed to them? did Jesus pray through the saints?

The spirit of error is the one leading you.
You conveniently ignored where I showed you lied. Who is then in error? That you lie to defend your way of thinking

Now you have jumped to another one.
Why are u quoting me out of context.

Do you not ask people to pray for you. Your problem is that you think you can only ask those on earth to pray for you. But the truth which should also inspire you is that the holy ones in heaven can still pray for us . Death has not separated them. And I have showed you that the holy ones are hidden in Christ. And the prayers of a righteous person availeth much (James 5:16)

The topic here is about if the saints can pray for us. The answer is yes. And that their prayers are very efficacious.
It is ignorance and a plus to the devil for you to neglect what can help you.

solite3:
the Jesus say they were not dead?
Read to context. Jesus was talking about the day of resurrection not that they were not dead

in fact Peter said David is both dead and buried

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Actually it is you who is supposed is to understand. He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
God refers to himself as "I AM the God of Abraham, God of Isaac, God of Jacob" to Moses. And He is not the God of the dead

You should know there is a difference between the body and the soul. The soul is a spirit.
When the body dies the soul which is a spirit leaves the body,the spirit is not dead. The which is common knowledge.

Jude 9
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses,

That the body is buried or kept in a physical location, or that bodies are buried, does not mean that their souls are with them in the grave. Like you saw Moses at the Transfiguration. But this is basic knowledge, I wonder why you are bringing it up.

solite3:
are you Jesus?

John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do

1 Corinthians 11:1
Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

solite3:
did the disciples speak with Moses and Elijah?

They spoke to Christ in the hearing of Moses and Elijah.....continue giving me ideas

solite3:
even when Peter suggested that tents should be built for them and Jesus, he rebuked them not to do such.

You know is a blatant lie to say Jesus rebuke them.

If you can formulate this, I am really surprised.

solite3:
today the Roman Catholic Church builds shrines and temples for various saints which God never commanded.

We would continue to venerate the holy ones that have gone before us. We would continue to surround ourselves with them, encouraged by their example and supported by their aid.

Heb 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses,.

Some people surround themselves with pictures of Messi, Ronaldo, etc but when those who are on pilgrimage to Heaven surround themselves with those who have made it, it irks some people.

Even the temple had images of those in heaven (Cherubims)
1 Kings 6:29
...carved engravings of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers.

2 Chronicles 3:7
He overlaid its beams, thresholds, walls, and doors with gold, and he carved cherubim on the walls.

Ezekiel 41:18
were alternating carved cherubim and palm trees. Each cherub had two faces:


Finally, look at Colossians 3:2-3

2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

Acts 7:59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."


The saints are hidden in Christ. And their prayers availeth much. When see their images, are our eyes set on things above?

So when I say St. Peter and St. Paul pray for me, it is efficacious. Death has not separated them from Christ.

solite3:
Question: "What does Revelation chapter 12 mean?"
Answer: In Revelation chapter 12, John sees a vision of a woman "clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars" (Revelation 12:1). Note the similarity between this description and the description that Joseph gave of his father Jacob (Israel) and his mother and their children (Genesis 37:9-11). The twelve stars refer to the twelve tribes of Israel. So the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel.
Additional evidence for this interpretation is that Revelation 12:2-5 speaks of the woman being with child and giving birth. While it is true that Mary gave birth to Jesus, it is also true that Jesus, the son of David from the tribe of Judah, came from Israel. In a sense, Israel gave birth—or brought forth—Christ Jesus. Verse 5 says that the woman’s child was "a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne." Clearly, this is describing Jesus. Jesus ascended to heaven (Acts 1:9-11) and will one day establish His kingdom on earth (Revelation 20:4-6), and He will rule it with perfect judgment (the “rod of iron”; see Psalm 2:7-9).
The woman’s flight into the wilderness for 1,260 days refers to the future time called the Great Tribulation. Twelve hundred, sixty days is 42 months (of 30 days each), which is the same as 3 1/2 years. Halfway through the Tribulation period, the Beast (the Antichrist) will set an image of himself up in the temple that will be built in Jerusalem. This is the abomination that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14. When the Beast does this, he breaks the peace pact he had made with Israel, and the nation has to flee for safety—possibly to Petra (also see Matthew 24; Daniel 9:27). This escape of the Jews is pictured as the woman fleeing into the wilderness.
Revelation 12:12-17 speaks of how the devil will make war against Israel, trying to destroy her (Satan knows his time is short, relatively speaking—see Revelation 20:1-3, 10). It also reveals that God will protect Israel in the wilderness. Revelation 12:14 says Israel will be protected from the devil for "a time, times, and half a time (“a time” = 1 year; “times” = 2 years; “half a time” = one-half year; in other words, 3 1/2 years).

Rev 12:1. "And a great sign appeared in heaven: A
woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her
feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars:

Such are the words of the Evangelist. He speaks
in the past, because at that time was shown to him a
vision of that which had already happened. He says:
"And a great sign appeared in heaven ; a woman clothed
with the sun and the moon under her feet and on her
head a crown of twelve stars."
The sun, which is mentioned as clothing the Woman, is the true Sun of Justice (Ps 84:11).
The moon was beneath her feet; for as the sun and the moon, divide night and day,
therefore the moon, being the symbol of the darkness of sin, is beneath her feet, and the sun, being the symbol of the light of grace, clothes her.

Lk 1:28 (Douay-Rheims Bible)
And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: (most versions of the bible have changed the bolded words to highly favoured but the Aramaic bible in plain English retains the original translation)

The Woman is Mary.

The war that follows, tells us this vision happened before the creation of Man. Hence this Sign (vision) was shown to the Angels of what was to come. The Lucifer rebelled against this Sign and also conscripted a third of the angels (stars) with him.

Clap for yourself. You are very civil.

Glycolysis:

EVERYBODY COME & SEE HOW SOMEONE IS DISGRACING HIMSELF IN COMMON; POSITIVE,COMPARATIVE & SUPERLATIVES IN ENGLISH LANGUAGE O

Glycolysis:
[b]
Sorry to say,you lack comprehension !

Glycolysis:
[b]
As I asked earlier,did you study English in any way from your primary to your tertiary school
I doubt you did !

Glycolysis:
[b]
The biggest problem with ignorant people is that they boost in their lack of knowledge..

One common difference between our modern notion of Bible interpretation and the ancient one we see in the Bible itself, is the very modern idea that a passage has only one possible correct interpretation. In fact the New Testament has many examples of Jesus, and his apostles using methods of Scripture interpretation which acknowledge multiple layers of meaning. This involves firstly the literal meaning from the original context, but it is possible to see other spiritual meanings in the text. The earliest disciples of the apostles also consistently refer to the spiritual meaning of Scripture.

In Mathew’s Gospel Jesus replies to the crowd;

An evil and unfaithful generation seeks a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah the prophet.
Just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. (Matthew 12:39-40).

Jesus sees the literal events of Jonah as a sign or predictive prophecy about His own death. More striking is Jesus comments in the Gospel of John. Jesus tells the crowd;

No one has gone up to heaven except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man. And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. (John 3:13-15).

Although the events in Moses’ time have a meaning in and of themselves, they are also a ‘sign’ which points to the death that Jesus would suffer. When the Son of Man (Jesus) is lifted up, those who gaze upon him will receive eternal life (cf. Mark 15:39). Although in the context of John’s gospel Jesus is revealed as the manna or true bread from heaven (John 6:32; 6:51) which is rejected by some (John 6:66) because they deny the significance of Jesus words (compare 1 Corinthians 11:29-30).

solite3:
who were the children of Mary that were persecuted?

The answer is in the last line of Rev 12. those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Just as in Gen 3:20 Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.

The new Eve , Mary is the mother of all those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

John 19:26
When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son
All Jesus beloved disciples are her children.

solite3:
Bro
according to the prophecy the child had been taken from the woman before she fled to the wilderness.

was Christ taken from Mary when she went to egypt?

Does it have to be the really physical or what wilderness represents.

You seem to want everything to follow your own order. But it does not flow that way, look at the place (Rev 12:7) that says great war broke out in heaven. I hope you know the war started before man was made in the book of Genesis.

.

solite3:
surprisingly you dodged the question, now let me repeat it again

who are the children of the woman that the devil went to make war on?

did mary have other children?

Read his last paragraph, that was the answer to your question

FrancisDeSales:
Interestingly, Scripture told us in Jn 19:26,27 that Christ handed the "beloved disciple" to Mary. Who are the beloved disciples? Those "who have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Rev 12:17). These are the children of the woman who are being persecuted.

solite3:
they are dead physically, meaning they are not aware of you.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Mark 12:26-27
26And regarding the dead rising, have you not read about the burning bush in the book of Moses, how God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” You are badly mistaken!

Who was Jesus speaking to during the Transfiguration? (You can as well accuse Jesus)
Mt 17: 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

Jesus seems to be a Catholic o, see Him discussing with Moses and Elijah who some would want us to believe cant communicate with the living.


Mt 27:52-53
52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people

Ah---another one. What concern the saints with appearing to many who are living. Their work should have been finished while they were physically alive.

FrancisDeSales:
You appear to be firm on the point that Rev 12 has only one interpretation, and that interpretation has nothing to do with the Mother of God. That the Mother of God had no significant role in the salvation of the world other than giving birth to Christ after which all that was left for her was to see Christ suffer and die and that was it for the Mother of God. That only one interpretation of the Scriptures is consistent and that interpretation must be yours.

Is several interpretations of Scripture unheard of? In 1 Cor 10:4, St Paul told us "that rock was Christ" although the old Testament scripture being referred to was a story of the Israelites travelling through desert waste. In Eph 5:32, while speaking on the truth of marriage based on the story of Adam and Eve, St Paul commented: "This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church." So at the same time, the marriage of Adam and Eve is a blueprint for all human lawful marriages as well as the specific truth the spiritual union between Christ and the Church. Hence, a multiple interpretation of a single text is common place in Scripture.

Now, is there any cue that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the woman of Revelation 12 without prejudice to any additional symbolism of the chapter?
V1. First the woman was said to be decked with the glory of the celestial bodies. If ever any woman would be so arrayed, it would be she who is "blessed among women" (Lk 1:42) and she is none other than the Blessed Mary.
V2. The woman was with Child, and was in pain to be delivered. To understand this pain, it is important to remind ourselves that TWO brought about the Fall in the garden, Adam and Eve, before a TREE (Gen 3). To win the salvation of Man, Christ became the New Adam (1 Cor 15:22; Rom 5), hanging on a TREE (the cross, Gal 3:13). But where is the New Eve? Christ himself while hanging on the cross pointed her to us: "WOMAN behold your son" (Jn 19:26). The word "woman" is unusual from a loving Son to the most lovable mother but it ties with the promise of the New Eve: "I will put enmity between you and the WOMAN" (Gen 3:15). So that mother at the feet of the cross is the New Eve, who with the New Adam repaired the Fall before the cross, the New TREE of life. Did the old Eve play any role in the Fall of Man? Yes, she did, an indispensable role. To pay the devil in his own coin, tree for tree, man for man and woman for woman, the Blessed Virgin Mary had to play an indispensable role in the salvation of Man. Just as Christ the New Adam said "I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!" (Lk 12:50), so the Blessed Virgin was in travail to deliver in her role as the New Eve for the salvation of Man.
V3,4. The Dragon can be associated with Herod (Mt 2:16) who try to destory the Christ Child and all those who plotted to destroy the infant Church.
V5. The woman had a male Child who is clearly Christ our Lord, the King of kings and Lord of lords (1 Tim 6:15). But we know that Mary is the Mother of Jesus, our Lord. Therefore, as have been pointed out earlier, if the Child is Christ, the woman and his mother is Mary.
V6. The woman, the New Eve, fled into the wilderness to escape the devil, as Christ, the New Adam, did (Mk 1.35) and advised his disciples to do (Mk 6:31).
V13. The devil persecute the woman. So many Christians would complain of Eve, but few call Mary blessed even when that is their responsibility (Lk 1:48) and when God commanded it (Pro 31:31). Instead, they call her "envelope" and "ordinary woman". We can tell who is behind the misnomer.
V14. The woman was given wings of a great eagle fly into the desert. We already know what she does in the desert of prayer. No wonder St Luke often says, "But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart." (Lk 2:19) Every event was for her a point of meditation day and night (Ps 1:2)
V15,16. The devil attempted to overwhelm the Blessed Mary with a flood of sorrows but God provided her natural support in the person of the beloved disciple (Jn 19:27) and all other disciple that is beloved.
V17. The devil makes war with the rest of the seed of this woman. Remember, when Christ handed St John to his mother in Jn19:16, St John was not mentioned, but only referred to as "the beloved disciple". But we know that there are many disciples that are beloved, all those who kept the faith of Christ (Rev 12:17).
V18. We know the devil is standing on sand. He will fail.

From above, one can see that Rev 12 indeed do refer to the Blessed Virgin Mary without excluding the other interpretation that refer to the Church.

Beautiful

Glycolysis:
Came across the catholic article a month ago,though I did not bother to bookmark it,because its misleading & oozes false meaning to that bible verse on revelation 12, I will certainly source for it & paste the reference here when I find it...

@the bolded ;
What do you mean by " the church was born at the crucifixion " ?

And again,what do your understand as church when used in the bible by Jesus apostles or the book of revelation ?

Pls ur answers,I will NEED bible verses you used to support you point (s)...that's if you used bible verses to support them...

Are you saying that they are two type of churches ?

"The church born on the crucifixion " as you claimed AND the mystical body of Christ which also represent a church ?

Now I ask you again ;
HOW DOES MARY RELATE TO REVELATION 12 VS 2 ?

You noticed I did not bother to talk about revelation 12 vs 1...

I know that's were the foundation of your hope is about the illusion you have about Mary having special place in heaven & interceding for you & tabling your request to God ( talk about mary being omnipresent ,to listen to all the prayers of the Catholics in the whole world at the same time & omnipotent ,to never forget what she was told by the catholic faithfuls when they pray to her,features only associated with the living God ! Is that not wonderful )

We will come to that verse 1 of revelation when we are done with other verses..

I am really getting tired with your method of presenting your argument. Really. Remember I told liked the civil way you began.
You easily get off the topic,then you make declarations, not associated with topic and also wrong declarations.

Glycolysis:
I know that's were the foundation of your hope is about the illusion you have about Mary having special place in heaven & interceding for you & tabling your request to God ( talk about mary being omnipresent ,to listen to all the prayers of the Catholics in the whole world at the same time & omnipotent ,to never forget what she was told by the catholic faithfuls when they pray to her,features only associated with the living God ! Is that not wonderful )

With particular reference to you claim below. I would like to see the source of you claim. The Church was born at the crucifixion, except you are referring to the mystical body of Christ which is the Church. Which still goes to what i said earlier about Rev 12:2

Glycolysis:
YOU JUST REMINDED ME OF THE "DOUBLE BIRTH" BEING PREACHED BY THE ROMAN CATHOLIC,WHICH THEY CLAIM THAT MARY ALSO GAVE BIRTH ,SPIRITUALY,TO JESUS CHRIST DURING HIS CRUCIFIXION !
[/b]

solite3:
revelation 12 has nothing to do with Mary but israel.
Israel has been persecuted right from day one.


Micah 4:10
Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.


the prophecy is about Israel and her deliverance.

she brought forth her messiah when Jesus was born.

Are you saying Mary did not suffer great pain or what?

Even before Jesus was born she faced the danger of being seen as one who got pregnant by infidelity, which you know the consequence was death by stoning. (Leviticus 20:10
She faced been danger of been divorced by Joseph. (Matthew 1:19)
She could not find a decent place to give birth to her Son (Luke 2:7)
She and Joseph to flee from Herod who killed over 2000 babies (Matthew 2:16-18)
40days after the birth of Jesus, Simeon prophesied that a sword would pierce her soul (Luke 2:35)
She and Joseph sought for Jesus for 3days until they found him in the temple. (when he was at age of 12) (Luke 2:48)
She heard people contradict her Son. The most beautiful and Holy of Sons. (John 10:20 )
She watched her innocent Son carry the cross to Golgotha and watch him died for us.(John 19:25 )
She watched the centurion pierce His side.
She was with the early Church that faced persecution. And saw many of Her Son's followers martyred (Acts 1:14)

My dear, Mary suffered alot.

When Eve decided to eat the apple she was not just harming herself, (Gen 3:6) but lead to the harming of even generations after her, generations existing now, and even generations yet to come.
When Mary said has yes to God's plan (Luke 1:38), she not just helping herself, but generations till the end of the world.

Rev 12 applies to Mary, the old Israel, and the Church (the new Israel). It appies to all three.

Glycolysis:
I have an issue with the way you interpret the Bible...
The Galatian 4:19 you talked about has nothing to do with the establishment of church(es) by Paul the apostle...
And also,you just pick up a bible verse & ascribe a meaning to it,that's not how to understand a message in the bible..
Now,let's go back to that Galatians 4 BUT let's start from verse 13..

"Ye know how through the infirmity of the flesh I PREACHED THE GOSPEL UNTO YOU AT THE FIRST

14- And my temptation which was in my fresh ye despised not,nor rejected, but RECEIVED ME AS AN ANGEL OF GOD,EVEN AS CHRIST JESUS

take strong note of the words I bolded..
Go down to verse 16
" AM I THEREFORE BECOME YOU ENEMY,BECAUSE I TELL YOU THE TRUTH ?
Now go down to verse 19 you talked about that it has to do with establishing of churches by Paul the apostle...

19- my little children ,of whom I travail in BIRTH AGAIN, UNTIL CHRIST BE FORMED IN YOU "

When you read further down,you will get to understand what verse 19 actually meant,more.

Now,as in verse 13,Paul was reminding the church of Galatia, how he onced suffered to preach the gospel of Christ to them,how they once accepted the truth & were willing to upheld the truth of God's word,with time ,they have forsaken the gospel they once believed...

They are introducing traditions & laws into the church ,rather than preaching the gospel of Christ...
Verse 19,Paul was writing that the initial anguish & suffering he felt when he was preaching the gospel of Christ to then ,he is still have to undergo such suffering to teach then the gospel the once believed,until Christ is formed in them....

As we all know,Paul was the greatest of the apostles of Jesus Christ, & suffered more than any of then..
That's exactly what is happening here in Galatians 4,where he have to go back & preach the gospel of Christ to them after they have departed from the truth....

HE LIKENED HIS SUFFERING TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THEM AGAIN AS THAT OF CHILDBIRTH, WHICH IS ONE OF THE GREATEST PAINS ANY HUMAN CAN FEEL


IT WAS NEVER ABOUT ESTABLISHING ANY CHURCH....

The 1 Corinthians you quoted,as usual,you just quoted a verse from the Bible without a thorough examination of other verses...
And yes,you misinterpreted it again..

IT WAS NEVER ABOUT PAUL BEING THE FATHER OF ANY CHURCH AS YOU HAD CLAIMED.......

And also,Revelation 12 vs 2 & Galatians 4:19 has no relationship whatsoever as you had claimed...
In that,you likened them both to as meaning establishing of the church......

Certainly, we wil proceed ,but until I understand Mary relationship to Revelation 12 vs 2...


And I also have problem with you here...
In the revelation 12 vs 2 ,you claim the anguish felt their was for the delivery of the church, but down to verse 4 ,we all know the child that was delivered was Jesus Christ...
because the pain & anguish there,CANNOT BE THAT OF THE PAIN FOR THE DELIVERY OF THE CHURCH BY MARY ,& AT THE END OF THE DAY,VERSE 4,JESUS WAS DELIVERED !
It should be the church that should be delivered & not Jesus christ...

Pls,explain on these.....

( And yes,Revelation 12 has being used by the catholics to believe in the assumption of Mary,the immaculate conception,the mother of the church & the preparation of a special place in heaven for Mary,the mother of Jesus Christ .
Unless,you want to pretend about that...
And,I don't go off point when I talk about those concepts,because it's still used by them to buttress there point,that's not without misinterpreting the scripture )



Good morning..

Okay let me leave out the birth of the Church. And even as it concerns more Rev 12:2 spoke about the birth of a Child whom we agree is Jesus. Fine and good it helps the topic greatly.

Now in Gal 4:19, Your summary shows you agreed with what I am referring to , that is St Paul likened his pain to labour pains of Child birth. Not just any Child but giving birth again to Jesus in those the letter to the Galatians was referred to .

The Holy Spirit speaking through Simeon called the pain of Mary as that of a sword piercing her soul.(Luke 2:35)

The pain referred in Rev 12:2, Gal 4:19 and Luke 2:35 are all synonymous with great pains. Which are about the greatest anyone can bear.

So for Christ to be formed in the Galatians , involved St Paul going through pains he likened to Child birth.
Christ in dying for us, which provides us with opportunity for Christ to be born in us, involved Mary going through pains which the Holy Ghost called a "a sword piercing her soul", which Rev 12:2 likens to to the pain of Child birth.

I hope that rests Rev 12:2. We can move to you next points.