₦airaland Forum

Glycolysis:
No bible verse / reference recorded that Mary decided to be a virgin for the rest of her life for the kingdom of God.
If she wanted,as you had claimed,she would be married to Joseph in the first place...

Why would a lady espoused to a man be troubled that she would bear a Son? It should be a normal expectation.

Why should the Angel go a long way in trying to convince her (Luke 1:35-37) that the Child would be conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost and not by normal means?
35 And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
36 And behold thy cousin Elizabeth, she also hath conceived a son in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren:
37 Because no word shall be impossible with God.
38 And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

Challenges to Mary's Being a Perpetual Virgin is a recent thing. Protestant early leaders Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Bullinger, Turretin, and Cranmer all believed in it.

Glycolysis:
The same way Jesus did not come to the world through the genetic components of Mary !
Jesus don't have the genes of Mary,the ovums of Mary was not involved in Jesus formation,the same way her blood in her circulatory system did not make contact with that of Jesus..
Yea,the circulatory system of the mother & that of child don't come in contact during foetal development,if it does the blood pressure will be too high for that baby,& could lead to complications.
Hence,the process of diffusion & osmosis in necessary for the child during development..
The key relationship between the child & the mother is the exchange of nutrients from the mother to the child & waste products from the child to the mother through the placenta with the aid of the umbilical cord from the child....

From the above,if we are to go with you views,then Jesus don't even have a mother on earth !
And that is true...
Jesus NEVER referred to Mary as his mother because Jesus don't have any gene of Mary in him ..
Jesus understood these...not even the blood of Mary flows in Him.

UNLESS YOU & I WILL GO TO A TOPIC THAT YOU WILL NOT BE COMFORTABLE WITH & THAT BLEW UP THE WHOLE BELIEVE YOU EVER KNEW ABOUT MARY & THE LORD JESUS CHRIST !

Luke 41-43
41When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42In a loud voice she exclaimed, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43And why am I so honored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Elizabeth filled with the Holy Ghost , called Mary Mother of the Lord.
And dare speak against the Holy Ghost, saying Mary is not the Mother of Jesus. What spirit is disturbing you?

Hundredfold4lif:
Luke 2:7 KJV-
"And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn."

Ex 11:5 says
And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sits upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.

Does the above mean that those who only had one child, disqualified them as being firstborns.

Firstborn as explained in Ex 13:2 is the child that opens the womb. It does not mean that there must be a second child.

Ex 13:2 Sanctify unto me every firstborn that openeth the womb among the children of Israel, as well of men as of beasts: for they are all mine.

Glycolysis:
Now,that's were the problem is !
You & I will agree first & foremost,that NO record of the immaculate conception of Mary was recorded in the Bible & taught my any of the apostles of Jesus Christ .
It's inconceivable that such a great miracle will take place,& was not recorded in the Bible or taught by Jesus disciples..

This paragraph is on the Immaculate Conception, not the topic of the thread. But by God's grace I would open a thread on the Immaculate Conception then we would discuss there.

Glycolysis:
The only record we have about Mary is that she was a humble maiden favoured by God,& she happens to be a virgin & of a Jewish descends..
Now,Mary has no part whatsoever to play in our salvation.
She was used as a medium through which our Redeemer is to come,just as many people of Old that was used by God to fulfil a purpose...
During Jesus trial,crucifixion & blood he shed on the cross of calvary, ascension & His coming back to rapture the saints that are both dead & living,Mary has no part whatsoever to play in these processes...
And that is where salvation & justification of the church is .

On Mary's Role in our Salvation, by God's grace I would talk about this in a new thread. And it is not Mary alone. The Communion of Saints have their own God given role.

Glycolysis:
So,I don't understand what you meant by "the birthing of the church "...
If Mary also gave birth to the church ,then she will be the one justifying & were our salvation is...
Then she is the author & finisher of our faith !
Then she is our redeemer,our saviour & all that Jesus is to a believer of the word of God !
Questionable !!

Now you have come. Let us forget Mary for a moment. How would you reconcile your comment above with what St Paul said in Gal 4:19. With respect to himself giving birth.

Gal 4:19 my little children, for whom I am again in the anguish of childbirth until Christ is formed in you!

1 Corinthians 4:15
Even if you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

So St Paul gave birth the Church in these places. Is Paul their author and finisher of their faith? I never claimed such for St Paul or for the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Glycolysis:
Like any mother out there,they will be traumatized to see there son go through such heart breaking encounter, & not that she was giving birth to the church as you had claimed in Revelation 12 v 2.

That was what Simon was talking about...

Glycolysis:
Mary had a mother & father,so for the immaculate conception to even start making sense,her father & mother too will be delivered without original sins ...
Then the whole generation of Mary before she was born from both the father & mother side will be born without the adamic nature !
Only then will I believe the immaculate conception that was not found in the bible reasonable...

Still on the Immaculate Conception. You really like the Immaculate Conception, we would come to it in a dedicated thread by God's grace.

Glycolysis:
Hence I told you,the woman in that revelation 12 cannot be Mary.....

You brought up the Immaculate Conception into this discussion. And you are busy using it to decide who the Woman is. I hope you can see you are very off the topic.

Glycolysis:
Can we move further down on that Revelation 12 ?
I have some more fascinating observation I would point out in that chapter ,maybe you may get to see more glaring proves that that woman cannot just be Mary,the mother of Jesus Christ...
Can we ?

That is what this thread is about

Glycolysis:
Now,that's were the problem is !
You & I will agree first & foremost,that NO record of the immaculate conception of Mary was recorded in the Bible & taught my any of the apostles of Jesus Christ .
It's inconceivable that such a great miracle will take place,& was not recorded in the Bible or taught by Jesus disciples..

The only record we have about Mary is that she was a humble maiden favoured by God,& she happens to be a virgin & of a Jewish descends..
Now,Mary has no part whatsoever to play in our salvation.
She was used as a medium through which our Redeemer is to come,just as many people of Old that was used by God to fulfil a purpose...
During Jesus trial,crucifixion & blood he shed on the cross of calvary, ascension & His coming back to rapture the saints that are both dead & living,Mary has no part whatsoever to play in these processes...
And that is where salvation & justification of the church is .

So,I don't understand what you meant by "the birthing of the church "...
If Mary also gave birth to the church ,then she will be the one justifying & were our salvation is...
Then she is the author & finisher of our faith !
Then she is our redeemer,our saviour & all that Jesus is to a believer of the word of God !
Questionable !!

Like any mother out there,they will be traumatized to see there son go through such heart breaking encounter, & not that she was giving birth to the church as you had claimed in Revelation 12 v 2.

That was what Simon was talking about...

Mary had a mother & father,so for the immaculate conception to even start making sense,her father & mother too will be delivered without original sins ...
Then the whole generation of Mary before she was born from both the father & mother side will be born without the adamic nature !
Only then will I believe the immaculate conception that was not found in the bible reasonable...

Hence I told you,the woman in that revelation 12 cannot be Mary.....

Can we move further down on that Revelation 12 ?
I have some more fascinating observation I would point out in that chapter ,maybe you may get to see more glaring proves that that woman cannot just be Mary,the mother of Jesus Christ...
Can we ?

My brother Mr Glycolysis,
I would actually like us to keep to one topic. And discuss new topics in new threads. As you know this one was created for the Woman of clothed the with Sun with the Moon under her feet, and around her head a crown of twelve stars.
Immaculate Conception, or the Communion of Saints we could discuss that, but lets keep to the topic else this thread would be untidy with different topics in one. I like the civil way you started. In my next post I would dissect you post point by point.

Glycolysis:
Nice write up...
But if we are to go with the view that the woman is mary,don't it defile the believe of the immaculate conception of mary believed dearly by the Roman catholics ?

Let's go to to verse 2 of that revelation 12;

"And she being with child cried,travailing in birth ,& pained to be delivered "

So,as you can see from that verse,the woman was in pain to be delivered ,but thier is a believe among the catholics that Mary was born without sins ( the immaculate conception of Mary) ,therefore she would not experience or did not experience the pain of child birth ..

I will bring up more "pictures" as we proceeds on these..


What do you think sir ?

If we are to go with the view of the woman being the Israel;then that verse will make more meaning to that verse 2.
Bible has it that the Israelites has always being tormented,subjected to all kind of pains & suffering,hoping for the delivery of the messiah they have heard of prophesied by the prophets..

Jesus was delivered as an isrealite,which you & I were told....or know.

What do YOU think on these as well ?

Again, if we are to go with the church of God as the woman,don't the church of God,which are usually referred to as Christians, start after the birth of Christ ?
The woman cannot be the "church of God" because the true church of God actually started during/after the missionary works of Jesus Christ, which are the true believers we see today .

What do YOU think on these too ?

AND NO,IF CAN'T BE THREE,EVEN IF THIER SEEM TO BE A SIMILARITIES....THIER IS A SUBTLE DIFFERENCES THAT MAKES ONE FITS THE REVELATION 12 ,100%...

Good morning ......

When Saul (before he became Paul) was persecuting the Church, Jesus asked him Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? (Acts 9:4)
So starting with you last question you can't categorically say Saul was not persecuting Christ but his Church, when the Jesus says He is the person being persecuted. I am saying this so that you see that the time difference you place in your third question can be understood in this light. So should not be a problem.

Now to your first question
Luke 2: 35 And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts, thoughts may be revealed.
John 19:35 Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.

Now Simeon's prophecy describe Mary's pain as a sword piecing her soul. This pain also be likened to pain of pregnant woman (Rev 12:2). See how St Paul said of described hispains in Gal 4:19).
Gal 4:19 my little children, for whom I am again in the anguish of childbirth until Christ is formed in you!

So the pains spoken about in Rev12:2 does not contradict the Immaculate Conception, but further shows how this Woman is Mary because she went through pains (Luke 2:35) for the Church to be born.

With regards to you second question, as earlier posited I (we), have no problem in saying that the Woman also represents Isreal and by extension the Church who is the new Isreal.

Of course let me remind you that the book of Revelations use symbols.

FrancisDeSales:
Now, is there any cue that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the woman of Revelation 12 without prejudice to any additional symbolism of the chapter?
V1. First the woman was said to be decked with the glory of the celestial bodies. If ever any woman would be so arrayed, it would be she who is "blessed among women" (Lk 1:42) and she is none other than the Blessed Mary.
V2. The woman was with Child, and was in pain to be delivered. To understand this pain, it is important to remind ourselves that TWO brought about the Fall in the garden, Adam and Eve, before a TREE (Gen 3). To win the salvation of Man, Christ became the New Adam (1 Cor 15:22; Rom 5), hanging on a TREE (the cross, Gal 3:13). But where is the New Eve? Christ himself while hanging on the cross pointed her to us: "WOMAN behold your son" (Jn 19:26). The word "woman" is unusual from a loving Son to the most lovable mother but it ties with the promise of the New Eve: "I will put enmity between you and the WOMAN" (Gen 3:15). So that mother at the feet of the cross is the New Eve, who with the New Adam repaired the Fall before the cross, the New TREE of life. Did the old Eve play any role in the Fall of Man? Yes, she did, an indispensable role. To pay the devil in his own coin, tree for tree, man for man and woman for woman, the Blessed Virgin Mary had to play an indispensable role in the salvation of Man. Just as Christ the New Adam said "I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!" (Lk 12:50), so the Blessed Virgin was in travail to deliver in her role as the New Eve for the salvation of Man.
V3,4. The Dragon can be associated with Herod (Mt 2:16) who try to destory the Christ Child and all those who plotted to destroy the infant Church.
V5. The woman had a male Child who is clearly Christ our Lord, the King of kings and Lord of lords (1 Tim 6:15). But we know that Mary is the Mother of Jesus, our Lord. Therefore, as have been pointed out earlier, if the Child is Christ, the woman and his mother is Mary.
V6. The woman, the New Eve, fled into the wilderness to escape the devil, as Christ, the New Adam, did (Mk 1.35) and advised his disciples to do (Mk 6:31).
V13. The devil persecute the woman. So many Christians would complain of Eve, but few call Mary blessed even when that is their responsibility (Lk 1:48) and when God commanded it (Pro 31:31). Instead, they call her "envelope" and "ordinary woman". We can tell who is behind the misnomer.
V14. The woman was given wings of a great eagle fly into the desert. We already know what she does in the desert of prayer. No wonder St Luke often says, "But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart." (Lk 2:19) Every event was for her a point of meditation day and night (Ps 1:2)
V15,16. The devil attempted to overwhelm the Blessed Mary with a flood of sorrows but God provided her natural support in the person of the beloved disciple (Jn 19:27) and all other disciple that is beloved.
V17. The devil makes war with the rest of the seed of this woman. Remember, when Christ handed St John to his mother in Jn19:16, St John was not mentioned, but only referred to as "the beloved disciple". But we know that there are many disciples that are beloved, all those who kept the faith of Christ (Rev 12:17).
V18. We know the devil is standing on sand. He will fail.

From above, one can see that Rev 12 indeed do refer to the Blessed Virgin Mary without excluding the other interpretation that refer to the Church.

Nice One

Glycolysis:
Who is the woman is revelation 12 you are talking about ?
I would love to hear your view on these..

Hi Glycolysis (Interesting name )

Please a thread created for that below.

https://www.nairaland.com/4768555/woman-clothed-sun-moon-under#71765817

Revelation 12:1 A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman* clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

[Rev. 12:1, 5].
She brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne

Who is this mysterious Woman clothed in the sun?

Is the Woman Mary?
Is the Woman Israel?
Is the Woman the Church?

Is She the Virgin Mary?
Note that the Woman gives birth to a male child who is to rule the nations with a rod of iron. That’s a reference to the Messianic prophecy in Psalm 2, where we read:

Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron [Ps. 2:8-9].

Jesus fulfilled this Messianic prophecy.

The fact that the male child is caught up to the throne of God is a reference to Jesus’ Ascension into heaven, so we have another confirmation that the male child is Jesus.

And since the Woman who gives birth to him is his Mother, we could infer that the Woman here is Jesus’ mother, the Virgin Mary.




Is She Israel . . . or the Church?
The symbolism connected with the Woman is drawn from the book of Genesis, where the patriarch Joseph has a dream involving the sun, the moon, and the stars.

Then he dreamed another dream, and told it to his brothers, and said, "Behold, I have dreamed another dream; and behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were bowing down to me."

But when he told it to his father and to his brothers, his father rebuked him, and said to him, "What is this dream that you have dreamed? Shall I and your mother and your brothers indeed come to bow ourselves to the ground before you?” [Gen. 37:9-10].

The symbolism of the sun, moon, and twelve stars comes from Genesis, where it refers to the family of Jacob and the twelve patriarchs, who headed the twelve tribes of Israel.

That has led some to say that the Woman in Revelation 12 is Israel.

You could go further and note that the Church is the spiritual Israel. So some have suggested that the Woman as the Church.



Figuring out Which View is True
Which view is true?

Is the Woman Mary?
Is the Woman Israel?
Is the Woman the Church?

Either/Or Vs. Both/And
We don’t have to make that choice, because if you study the way symbolism is used in the book of Revelation, it often uses a single symbol points to more than one thing.

For example, Revelation 17 tells us what the seven heads of the beast represents:

This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the [LovePeddler of Babylon] is seated; they are also seven kings (Rev. 17:9-10).

If the seven heads can be seven mountains and seven kings then the Woman clothed with the sun might be the Virgin Mary and Israel and the Church.



Pope Benedict's View
That’s what Pope Benedict suggests. In his book Jesus of Nazareth, volume 2, he writes:

When the Book of Revelation speaks of the great sign of a Woman appearing in heaven, she is understood to represent all Israel, indeed, the whole Church. . . .

On the basis of the “corporate personality” model—in keeping with biblical thought—the early Church had no difficulty recognizing in the Woman, on the one hand, Mary herself and, on the other hand, transcending time, the Church, bride and mother, in which the mystery of Mary spreads out into history [Benedict XVI, Jesus of Nazareth 2:222].

On another occasion, Pope Benedict said:

This Woman represents Mary, the Mother of the Redeemer, but at the same time she also represents the whole Church, the People of God of all times, the Church which in all ages, with great suffering, brings forth Christ ever anew [General Audience, Aug. 23, 2006]..

As Pope Benedict shows us, we don’t have to make a forced choice between the possible meanings of what the Woman represents.

In keeping with the richness of the way Revelation uses symbolism, to use Pope Benedict’s phrases, she represents ""Mary and “all Israel” and “the whole Church” in different ways.

Adapted from http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/revelation-12-who-is-the-woman-clothed-with-the-sun

Obakuso:
Child rape isn't scripture.

Luke 17:1
AND he said to his disciples: It is impossible that scandals should not come: but woe to him through whom they come.

1 Corinthians 11:19
And indeed, there must be differences among you to show which of you are approved.

1 Samuel 2:12&17&35
12 Eli’s sons were scoundrels; they had no regard for the Lord.
17 This sin of the young men was very great in the Lord’s sight...

35 I will raise up for myself a faithful priest, who will do according to what is in my heart and mind. I will firmly establish his priestly house, and they will minister before my anointed one always.

1Sam 2: 26 And the boy Samuel continued to grow in stature and in favor with the Lord and with people.
1 Sam 3:19 The Lord was with Samuel as he grew up, and he let none of Samuel’s words fall to the ground.

The presence of unfaithful priests or Judases who would cause scandal are inevitable. However for every Hophni and Phinehas (Sons of Eli), there are faithful ones who act according to the heart and mind of God .

We pray for faithful and holy priests of the Living God.

JMAN05:
Of course. But why not make d process agree with the bible? For eg, if one wants to be a priest and yet be married, has he gone against d scriptural requirement?

Bros celibacy is scriptural!
And Our Lord Jesus Christ encouraged it!
Mt 19:12
For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

Now this has been practiced right from biblical times as St Paul was a celibate himself and wanted all to be like him. Not necessarily because of priesthood for because of the benefits of celibacy. He encourage male and female alike to be like him

1Cor7:1,7 & 32

1 Corinthians 12:5-6
5 There are different ministries, but the same Lord. 6 There are different ways of working, but the same God works all things in all men.

You don't have to be a celibate but the scripture encourages it.
The Church encourages it.

What you should be asking yourself is if your group is of God how come it does it not encourage what Jesus Christ and the scripture encourages but is busy attacking it.

Incase you dont know there many male celibates in the Catholic who are not priests, but have fully dedicated to the work of God, example are reverend Brothers (friars). We also have reverend sisters.

Now having said this. We also have non-celibates who are fully dedicated in Catholic to the work of God in one capacity or the other. And many lead God's flock in one capacity or the other.

JMAN05:
OK, but is that suppose to be so?

Sure. Everyone is running his own race . And there are different ministries

JMAN05:
OK, but is that suppose to be so?

Sure. Everyone is running his own race . And there are different ministries

Gggg102:
you just said your mother gave birth to flesh alone. i.e your mother did not give birth to a human being.

when did your soul and spirit join your body?

;

solite3:
yes she is the mother of my flesh, she understand that, in fact she knew that her role as a mother is only in this life.
now answer me
is David the father of God?

So is Jesus Christ flesh in heaven?

solite3:
yes she is the mother of my flesh, she understand that, in fact she knew that her role as a mother is only in this life.
now answer me
is David the father of God?

solite3:
funny enough not even the church father's creed called mary mother of God the son.
going by logic david from whom mary came must the bear the title forefather of God right? but Jesus disagrees with you he is not the son of David, that automatically mean he is not the son of mary.

so, there is nothing like mother of God neither father of God

According to Solite Jesus disagreed been a Son of David

solite3:
Luke 20:41-44 And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David's son?
And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?

That is what he understands from the passage above.

Ubenedictus:
so you didn't read conceived of the holy spirit, born of the virgin Mary.

According to Solite " Jesus denied being son of David"

He was asking about a line on the Apostles ' creed....the question is whether he believes it the whole creed.

We have shown him the bases of his argument are faulty. His deductions would definitely be faulty

solite3:
Luke 20:41-44 And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David's son?
And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?

So is that your understanding of that passage? Case closed.

Jesus asked them for an explanation. Not denying that he was David 's son. Look at Matthew 22:41-46.

But passage is not difficult to understand now. Ask somepne you respect to explain that passage to you

solite3:
funny enough not even the church father's creed called mary mother of God the son.
going by logic david from whom mary came must the bear the title forefather of God right? but Jesus disagrees with you he is not the son of David, that automatically mean he is not the son of mary.

so, there is nothing like mother of God neither father of God

Interesting the way you avoided all the biblical quotes and now talking about " the church father's creed" .Do you believe in the Nicene Creed?

Where did Jesus Christ disagree being the son of David?

solite3:
the humanity of Christie started from Mary's womb but his divinity predates her remember that the two nature's of Jesus are not mixed but only unified thus it makes sense to identify Mary as the mother of christ our Lord which even Elisabeth attested to than address her as the mother of God.
hope you know that christ humanity is different from his divine nature?
as a man he was a descendant of David born by a virgin named Mary, he lived as any other man, bled and died but yet without sin.
but as God he neither had beginning or ending, neither had any descendant or mother, cannot die bit eternally the blessed creator.
so Mary was never the mother of God.
shallom

Is Jesus God ? The answer is Yes
Is Mary His Mother? The answer is Yes.
Is Jesus Christ truly God and truly man ? Yes

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Was the baby Mary conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost , God? answer : Yes ( For John 1:1-2 "...and the Word was God.The same was in the beginning with God)



Gal 4:4
But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law,to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.

Hence the title : Mary, Mother of God.
The title Mother of God is with respect to God the Son.
We call her Daughter of God the Father, Mother of God the Son,

The Holy Trinity is a mystery we accept in faith.

solite3:
yes Mary is Jesus mother but not mother of God

So how is it that Mary is the mother of Jesus when , He existed before her?

How can she be the mother of her creator? were as " John 1;1-3,14
says
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


How is it that Elizabeth filled with the Holy Ghost could recognize her dignity (luke 1:43) And you don,t?

MosesAlex:
So lets use your logic
Jesus existed before he was born -correct
Mary therefore is the mother of God- wrong.
reason because God existed before Mary simple.

So from your logic Mary cannot be the Mother of Jesus because Jesus existed before Mary.
You logic does not hold water.
If you don't understand the Catholic teachings ask instead slandering what you don't understand.
(Jude 10 :Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand...)

Solite it seems you don't see this response or you don't have an answer to it?

solite3:
The rcc teachings are most times unclear and subtly deceptive.
Jesus existed before he was born -correct
the word took on flesh and became the God-man- correct
Mary therefore is the mother of God- wrong.
reason because God existed before Mary simple.

So lets use your logic
Jesus existed before he was born -correct
Mary therefore is the mother of God- wrong.
reason because God existed before Mary simple.

So from your logic Mary cannot be the Mother of Jesus because Jesus existed before Mary.
You logic does not hold water.
If you don't understand the Catholic teachings ask instead slandering what you don't understand.
(Jude 10 :Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand...)

And Solite you can do yourself some good and do a fact check with what you post on Mary or the Catholic by comparing it with official teaching of the Catholic Church which available to all (use Google).
Many of those antagonist to the Catholic are so because of perception and not facts.
Many anti Catholics have converted when they see the real deal. E.g Scott Hann

solite3:
yea was both God and man but never the mother of God

So Elizabeth filled with the Holy Ghost was wrong in Luke 1:43?
And you right?

Ubenedictus:
this should help you, it is from the anathasian creed.

29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.





his uncaused divine nature didn't change, he who is God took to himself human nature in the womb of the virgin Mary and in his one person is both God and man without forsaking his divine nature or losing it or intermingling it. he is God and since his incarnation he is both God and man, and Mary gave birth to him, one person possessing two natures.


I already know how to separate Jesus human nature from his divine nature, heck it is we Catholics who defined the doctrine of the hypostatic union you guy simply came later and adopted it. it is I who should tell you to learn more about it.

the topic of the thread still remains, God took flesh in the womb of Mary and was born Jesus,God and man. Mary gave birth to a son who had two natures, she bore and birthed to God incarnate (God in human nature). she is his mother, you can't dodge it. funny enough the same council the set forth the hypostatic union also affirmed the Mary gave birth to God incarnate, she is Theotokus.

Nice one

JMAN05:
Only appointed/ordained shepherds can shepherd d flock of God. Any other person is illegal. Pastors are ordained shepherds, I believe ur church believe that priests act as ordained pastors. Am I right?

JMAN05
The laity (Lay people) and the Clergy legally shepherd the flock of God in the Catholic Church in various capacities.

Suplexx:
Mathew 19:10-12

The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

Also 1Cor 7: 1 ,7 &32)


1 Corinthians 7:32

But I want you to be free from concern. One who is unmarried is concerned about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord;

1 Corinthians 7:1

Now concerning the things about which you wrote, it is good for a man not to touch a woman.

1 Corinthians 7:7
Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that.

From all indications you no fan of Christians. So I would let you be.

jnrbayano:
You chose not to answer me why?

Yes, its reasonable because of the words of Jesus. Some are unmarried for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. That's what Catholic priesthood is all about and they never claim that God didn't approve of pastors who are married.

The bold is the emphasis

There are many married leaders in the Catholic Church. Just use google and learn.

Obakuso:
I'm more for them being all arrested and let judgement in each country proceed according to the law.


www.theriseofsodom..com

My dear, there would be bad shepherds and flock. Jesus said the Kingdom of heaven would be like that. (Even Jesus after praying choose 12 apostles, and one of them was Judas)
Matthew 13:24-53
24 Another parable he proposed to them, saying: The kingdom of heaven is likened to a man that sowed good seeds in his field.

25 But while men were asleep, his enemy came and oversowed cockle among the wheat and went his way.

26 And when the blade was sprung up, and had brought forth fruit, then appeared also the cockle.

27 And the servants of the goodman of the house coming said to him: Sir, didst thou not sow good seed in thy field? whence then hath it cockle?

28 And he said to them: An enemy hath done this. And the servants said to him: Wilt thou that we go and gather it up?

29 And he said: No, lest perhaps gathering up the cockle, you root up the wheat also together with it.

30 Suffer both to grow until the harvest, and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers: Gather up first the cockle, and bind it into bundles to burn, but the wheat gather ye into my barn.