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Time to evaluate a high defensive line against a decent PL side.

Pre-season Live.


1min and I have already missed a goal.
I think Josh scored.

45m Euros. . I bet Ibime is happy now.

Xavi made 20 assists in 08/09. Pastore is 22. I keep repeating. If you think he should have done more than what he is doing now, tell me one player at 22 in the world now that you can point to who is doing better.

Please name one.

Cos you keep asking me to tell you what he has done. I'm sorry, he's not done a lot. However is that because he cannot? No! Because he is 22. Do you ask why Sturridge should not be playing for Chelsea? He's Danny's mate.
I've not told you he's come to replace Lamps. I have stated that time and again, yet you see what you want to see.


Is he worth 40m? Absolutely not. However, I will pay 30m for him. Cos I'm paying for what he can do.
That article is no more valid than the bunkum you've been spilling on here. It's goal.com for pete's sake.


I will never take back wanting Lamps and Drogba out. Cos at that time it was the right thing to do.
The first top six teams in the PL have at least one player they will be willing to sell for 30m.
Name me one Chelsea player you can confidently say has to go for 20m, let alone 30m.
That's to tell you how poor our squad is. yet you are busy making up stats here.

Bone stats, the future is nigh. The earlier we embrace it, the better.

how old was scholes before he retired? giggs? does it matter what age or what these kingpins deliver in their respective clubs?
should drogba be kicked off as well?

Difference. Scholes was not starting every game at 33.
United will score bucket loads with or without Scholes and Giggs.
At 33, Scholes and Giggs became subs.
Geddit?

relegation? stop exaggerating. . . . .

What do you mean stop exaggerating. If a team at the bottom of the PL went through the form Chelsea went through in that dip period, they would have been confirmed relegated as at January.

lampard didn't really feature last season - what did chelsea achieve in his absence?

Isn't this the Lamps-centric issue I am fighting here? Why are you suddenly making my point for me?

media speculation. . . . . .there's no official bid at all apart from modric and redknapp has told chelsea he won't even sell luka @ £35m

What media speculation? You no dey follow news?
Plus you do know Romeu and Thibault are already Chelsea players right?

so all those needless away draws united were copping in the early parts of last season shouldn't be counted, abi? na only chelsea slipped from 11pts ahead to 15 points behind. . . . .this analysis is watery. . . . .

Which needless draws? Are you making this seem like you would have preferred our form? Cos making your situation look worse is very disturbing. Do you know where Utd would have been if you suddenly drop 26 straight points off the back of a 3-0 loss to Sunderland at home?

Don't preach to me about needless draws. If we had only "needless" draws last season, we would have wrapped the league up 5 games to go.


I dey go sleep. I wan go play football for morning. Anything you and Ibime come back with I go deal with tomorrow.

Ibime:
Choose what you want to compare midfielders to Lampard on:
(1. ) Goals
(2.) Assists
(3.) Passes completed
(4.) Passes perecentage success
(5.) Workrate
Anything you want compare, we dey here.
Any no of assists Pastore is making, Lamps is already making 4 times that.
As we dey now, only Ryan Giggs has made more assists than Lamps in the EPL. Lamps has twice topped assists chart, and 15 - 20 assists per season is just about par for him.

Yeah yeah yeah. Lamps has more goals, more assists more blah blah blah.
Like I told you, not everything is stats mate.
Heck Lamps has more goals, assists and whatever than Xavi and Iniesta put together. I know who I'd rather have.

Why don't you stop supporting Chelsea when Lamps goes to sleep?
Pastore is not Lampard. Pastore - if he comes - is not coming to replace what Lamps' done.
Pastore and players of his ilk will cause Chelsea to evolve.
Lamps' a legend and I am grateful for all he did for the club but dude, football evolves.

Siddon there dey compare every mid-fielder with Lamps.

Ibime:
Erm. . . .

Lemme get this straight

Spanish player of the year (in the presence of Xavi and Iniesta) vs Young player of the year in deadwater Italy (with few young players of note) and you are here yarning nonsense.

Valero was played as a DM at West Brom. Yes, his ninny legs couldnt hack it because he is supposed to have a destroyer alongside him. Blame Tony Pulis who played him behind two other ninnies. . . and that is the only reason his price is not high, because of the West Brom experience.

Borja Valero is now in the Spain squad. Pastore cannot smell Spain squad.

Borja Valero has taken his two teams to 5th and 4th place in Spanish league. Pastore finish mid-table always.

And who is after Pastore? Is any club jumping over him? Only maga Abramovic.

Nucca please!.
Valero making a debut for the Spanish team at 26, I am not impressed. And yes you can say it's the "Spanish" team, it just goes to show he is not that good. I will be shelling out good dough on Juan Mata, Thiago Alcantara and David Silva before I even consider Valero. Valero my ass.

Your arguments about carrying teams to 4th and 5th places are lopsided to say the least. What was he doing at West Brom? Did he forget how to carry a team? Oh! It's Pulis's fault now.

And which Pulis are you referring to? The one that's been with Stoke since '06 even when Valero signed for West Brom in '08 ?

I'm sorry. Pastore is 22. To put that in perspective, same age as Theo Walcott and Sturridge.
The 4 - 5 year advantage Valero has over Patore should count for something and he's done shi, t.


You think Valero will get into the Argentina squad?

At least two magas are after Pastore, who's after Valero? Even JM went to bring Sahin from the bundesliga.
So much for best player in Spanish league.

lampard is the soul of chelsea. . . .if he's fit, chelsea score goals.

And at 33, there's obviously something really wrong to have him as the soul Chelsea.
No one plays like him, if we only score goals when he is fit, then there's a fundamental problem.
And guess what? I do not want my team to play like that.

"Oh Sorry guys, we didn't even bother to turn up to play, we can't score goals. . . . Lamps caught a cold".


Name me one top team in europe plagued by such imbalance.
WE have to find a way round it eventually and must still aspire to be successful. Are we going to get relegated because Lamps chose to retire? Therefore, the earlier we embrace it, the better. If he is there, bonus. If not, we score goals still.

it simply means chelsea cannot boss the transfer market like before. you have new kids on the block now. . . .man city, psg and malaga

That's doesn't explain how cash is tight. Chelsea have tabled a 42m-euro bid for Pastore, 27m-pound bid for Modric, 5m for Romeu, 8m for Thibault and reportedly 18m for Lukaku. All on the back of a 75m spending spree only 6months ago. . . What do you expect us to do when cash is not tight? Please speak of what you know.

no team will be as good as barca even if you put 50 pastores and 40 lampards in the midfield.
united won the toughest league in the world with the poorest midfielders in the top six. . . .united don't need a superb midfielder to win the english league. . . . .nani/giggs/valencia/park will work out the creativity.

the reason fergie is after sneijder is to close the gap on barcelona in europe. . . .not in the league.

United won the league because because Chelsea slipped from 11 pts ahead to 15 points behind.
That's 26pts. A team at the bottom of the PL would have been confirmed relegated in January with that form.

A fit Utd and a fit Chelsea, Utd cannot pip Chelsea to the title. Chelsea has by far the best midfield in the PL.

Erm, so Chelski should spend upwards of £60m to buy TWO players who both combined on current form don't score up to Lampard's return?

Interesting.

That's the issue. Why do they both have to score more goals than Lampard for us to be a dominant force? Why goals?
What if each one of them produces twice the number of assists of Lamps?

Like I once argued with Ibime, Modric's assist stats will jump exponentially playing behind Drogba, Torres, Anelka and Sturridge as compared with playing behind Defoe, Pavy and Crouch.

Off the back of one good season? That should be a potentially massive player - a tree does not make a forest.

I agree you do need to find alternatives to Lamps considering his age, but why this alternative has to be such an inflated purchase is a bit surprising, especially when the players suggested neither score incredibly and generate very few assists.

I quite agree not off the back of one good season. However the potential is there.
I do not refute paying top dollar for potential especially when the talent is glaring.

If Fabregas was 20 again, I will pay 50m for him if I could.

if it ain't broke - don't fix it. . . .you have to be a lampard-centric chelsea until fat frank retires. . .if he was fit last season, the title race might have panned out differently.

What do you mean if it ain't broke don't fix it? Let's bring back Carllotti then. If AVB decides to play Lamps every minute of the season, I will respect his decision. If chooses otherwise, I will be jumping for joy.


cash is tight. . . .

I dunno what that means, you know something I don't?

because fergie has given up trying to create from the middle. . . .united's creativity are on the wings - something chelsea lack in leaps n bounds.

Exactly and that's why they were leaps and bounds ahead of Barca as well. Crap. Why is Fergie after Sneijder?

the time of senseless spending has passed. torres' signing is still an embarrassment to chelsea fc. . . .getting another high risk player at top dollar will unsettle dust at stamford bridge. you gotta look at the wage structure as well. will drogba be happy? terry? lampard? ashley cole?

No fan has discussed wage structure more than me here.
Pastore cannot have a dent on Chelsea's wage structure.
Pastore's reported earning are in the region of 30,000 - 40,000. What's got to happen upset Terry?

Ibime:
Massive player ko! Is he a WINNER?

Do you think betting everything on Pastore would improve didlly squat of our chances without correct wingers?
I would be the first to laugh when Pastore join Chelsea and the usual failings remain.
Which decent central midfielder did Manure have last season? Pastore is not the answer. Good wide players are the answer.
Is Pastore better than Valero? On what basis?
Did Valero not single-handedly taking perennial relegation contenders Mallorca to within a point of UCL and being named Spanish player of the year prompting Pep Guardiola to claim that "Valero, Fabregas and Iker Munain are the only midfielders capable of playing for Barcelona"
What has Pastore done for Palermo except finishing mid-table yearly, getting hammered 7-0 by Udinese and all sorts.
Im from an era where players are judged on their record abeg, not a couple youtube videos.
As of now, I cannot guarantee that Pastore plays quick enough or is strong enough for the Prem. I see some potential there but I am not creaming over him. I do not buy Zamperini's hype.
Secondly Yohann Cabaye plays in a defensive position for the last two seasons, but was more dynamic the season before.
Vidal is a DM, and also a great AM. He scored many goals last season, ask Dayo.

Thirdly, AVB does not play with attacking midfielders. He plays 3 genuine forwards, and each of the three midfielders must be able to put in a shift whether that is Freddy Guarin (I love him), Joao Moutinho (whose game has become more tenacious), James Rodriguez or Fernando (5 lungs - ask Sauron how he single-handedly harried Manure midfield in 2009). . . .whilst Ruben Michael (Pastore-type player) ride the bench.

So why are we not seeing the top teams all over Valero then? Why is he not playing in the UCL already?
Please mate, Borja Valero signed for West Brom, what did he do?
Dude was loaned back to Spain where his ninny legs could make a difference.
And even the Mallorca you are gisting about, he was on further loan while Pastore is in one of the hardest leagues in the world being adjudged best young player of the year. Which Valero are you talking about?

Don't paint a picture that is not.


Yes Zamparini's mouth is wide but nobody tags anybody with 30m tag for the sake of it.
There is potential there. Potential Valero will never have.
What is you on about mate?



And that last statement of yours is crap man!.
Dozens of quote flying all around the place about how AVB descibed himself is an options person.
He is willing to use deploy even a 4-4-2.
Watching a season of him at Porto is sufficient evidence to decide how will and won't deploy his mid-fielders.

That dude knows what he is talking about.

coogar:
so mr. nateevs, what's your point?

My points are:

1. We have to move away from a Lampard-centric Chelsea.
2. Pastore is a massive player. He has the abilities to add a lot more to Chelsea. If he comes at top dollar, there ain't sh.it we can do about it.
3. There is nothing to suggest all those players Ibime is suggesting will excel in the PL. Why have we not seen Utd all over them.
4. The fact that we want to spend a lot on a player doesn't mean we don't know when to get value. We got Romeu for 5m, if he will turn out good, time will tell.

debosky:
There is a simple reason for that lateefu - very few top players continue to score goals at the rate Lamps does at his age. If the issue is getting someone to understudy Lamps, it makes poor financial sense to buy a £30m understudy like Pastore.

Some players are simply so productive that you keep them playing regularly despite their age. Seedorf is one that comes to mind.

Well like you said, that's "if" Pastore is coming in as an understudy to Lamps. Why the automatic assumption?
Nobody spends that much money on an understudy.

Also, looking at my posts, you will see that I clearly acknowledged the fact that Lamps still has a lot to offer.

I have never asked not to play Lampard. I respect his productivity. My point is just that, when you play Lampard, you play in a certain way and if you choose not to play in a way that suits Lamps, you have got to do something about it. And like you acknowledged there aren't a lot of players like Lamps, if we continue to play in a manner that suits him only, what happens if he suddenly is retired from the game due to an injury?

That's why we have to evolve. I don't mind Lamps coming in for some minutes to change games, I just do not desire a Lamaprd-centric Chelsea . . . Not at 33.

I'm sorry mate but if you think I am creaming myself over Pastore then you need to read my posts again.
I set-up a midfield based on what is happening in the transfer market. Chelsea is negotiating over the transfer Pastore and Modric whether we fancy it or not. The sooner you embrace that the better.

No be you talk say how many of the quick players can score 10 goals a season? So bloody damn what if Lampard can still do that at 35, you always act like those who don't have 20 goals a season mid-fielders don't win trophies. Pastore is 22 and there's nothing to suggest he cannot go on and top his own records.


Like we've argued tirelessly on this forum, mid-fielders' primary responsibility is not to score goals. If you get one, it's a bonus. I wonder why every mid-fielder we get linked with must be compared with Lampard.

You have a penchant for thinking players you love "will" do well in the prem however on the closer look, it's bollocks. Only Nuri Sahin I believe of all those you have listed can make a difference. Valero is 26, Cabaye is 25 and has scored only 31 goals in 7 seasons, Vidal is a DM (and I love him) but them all cannot hold a candle to Pastore. You act like there is a direct relationship between cheap players and top performances.

I am not in support of buying Pastore for 50m but sorry, Roman has set a precedence. When Chelsea is in for a player, the player's stock rises. We will never break that cycle until we produce our own player or buy a player for cheap who goes on to become a superstar. That said, Pastore is a massive player please, expensive or not.


AVB obviously does not see Gervinho as a fit to the team. Plus what do you want us to do during the ACN when Mikel, Essien, Drogba, Kalou and then Gervinho leave? You thought of that?

We signed Oriol Romeu for peanuts and dude may become gold in the future. However that should not stop us from splashing if we have to. Our biggest players in the last 10 years have been the ones we paid good money for. Lamps, Drogba, Essien, Carvalho.

Eldee . . code abeg.

Ibime:
Which of the "quicker players" can score even 10 goals a season. 

Lamps will slot into DM quite comfortably, but maybe in one or two seasons. He played DM behind Joe Cole at West Ham. . . . but for now, he's too hungry to go forward. . . and he is still better going forward. . . plus looking quite slim this pre-season.

You are too obsessed with Lampard's goals. He's 33.
Lamps will play a very important role still in our team, but I don't remember any top team in the world that have a 33 year old attacking midfielder guaranteed to play all games if looking quite slim.

Just so you know,  Pastore stats for 10/11 season 35apps, 11goals, 5 assists. And he's only 22.


At some time we need to start thinking forward.

coogar:
with the type of players they usually go for i.e. marquee signings.

barcelona - alexi sanchez
man utd  - wesley sneijder
ac milan - pato, ronaldinho, kaka, or whoever they have signed in the past.

chelsea - benayoun? zhirkov? ramirez? who are these names??

While I quite understand that we need to step above the Benayouns. . Who have AC signed in the last five years bar Ibra. ?
Pato was bought when he could not even start for them. They didn't know he would become big.
Kaka was bought very young.

Ronaldinho was past it when he signed for AC.

I don't understand what the dude means. Did he forget the United he quoted signed Valencia?
According to his skewed logic, Utd are looking at themselves on the level of Wigan.
What did he think about the signing of Berba and Carrick from the same Spurs?


Great player but he's chatting BS.

ritchboy:
^^ He even suggested Modric won't be able to cope with the number of games Chelsea play!

Then he goes on to say Chelsea should be looking to get on the same level as AC Milan

Can you imagine? Chelsea should be looking to get on the level on of AC Milan.

ritchboy:
Arsenal have been in the top division longer than any other team #nobemistake

If you were manager of Chelsea(God forbid ), would you consider deploying 33y/o Lamps as a DM?

The last time we played a 33 year old dude at DM, we ruled the world.

ritchboy:
Brilliant, 150 goals scored, 1,500 goals conceded = relegation!

In your dreams. Arsenal will be in Ligue 2 by the time Chelsea are due for relegation.

ritchboy:
Get ready to ship the most goals in Chelsea history

As long as we score the most goals in Chelsea's history!

debosky:
I don't think the person bidding 20m for a Denmark based player has realised that.

Do you think Mikel can play in an advanced position or have JM and his successors completely obliterated his attacking nous?

FFP still allows us to blow 40m on an 18 year old.
Meanwhile Mikel still has what it takes to play in an advanced role.
He just needs to be sharper in his thinking.

I watched the game yesterday again, albeit against a mumu side (in the words of switch), he seemed like he knew what to do.

debosky:
Not when the bidders are a money-miss-road like Chelski.

Ogbeni go siddon. We have passed that money miss road era.
FFP rules begin next season.

Ibime,

Do you remember me suggesting that Lamps be moved into the holding role while allowing quicker players to move forward?
AVB is trying that out now. We may be lining up with a midfield of

  Lamps
Modric Pastore

in the next season. Assuming those transfers materialize, that could be the most creative Chelsea midfield in history.



It's interesting to know also that Mikel played a more advanced role alongside Benayoun when he came on yesterday.

So no one can be worth 20m because they play in Denmark?

ritchboy:
Hulk's agent is claiming Porto rejected an €80m bid. Surely even Chelsea aren't silly enough to bid €80m for Hulk!

An even dumber person for rejecting the money. Nobody is worth that.

You are one stupendous plonker. I could not even try to argue any more with your sorry arse. Now you've gone from

he doesn't know what system works with the players he's got and is trying to find out.

to

He does not know what works best with his players.

And trying desperately not only to argue that this is what you have meant along but also that they are the same. It's so horrible how you are jumping from place to place

he doesn't know what system works with the players he's got and is trying to find out.

You are suddenly gone sooo desperate you have to mention the word "best" 13 times. Yes a whole 13 times just to prove you've been on track all along?



However I will ask you one simple question that exposes your grave s.tupid.ity.


How can you know what works best with the tools you have if you don't know your tools in the first place? Because according to you,

he doesn't know what system works with the players he's got and is trying to find out.

Ibime:
I no dey watch match. How Torres dey play?


So far, I dont see whats exciting about the so-called "tactical experiement" by AVB. Id rather he just pick his 4-3-3 and stick to it. . . appoint those who need to be appointed. . . and dissapoint those wh need to be dissapointed, regardless of their status or ego. Any attempt to shoehorn DD and Torres into the same side will cause confusion and is no different to the nonsense Ancelotti was doing in February.


I am convinced that Torres will make or break AVB just like he broke Roy Hodgson. AVB needs to deal with the Torres issue decisively, which is to either get him on top form or drop him entirely. . . . at the moment, I go with the latter instead of the former until I see any positive signs from him. The ninja is even catching flack in pre-season.

To be honest Torres was decent today. Almost scored a goal. Well . . almost again. AVB is sticking to a 4-3-3 except he is trying to play with inverted wingers like he did at Porto. There is a lot of pressing and the very scary part, playing with a high defensive line, which I think could bite him in the arse when it comes to the real PL games.

He is not doing any much tweaking to the set-up. A little bit of change in the set-up in attack and in defence. 4-2-3-1 was how we lined up today. The flow of play and tempo is important. I think this is because other players are likely to join. I see Romeu may be a big part of the season. If rumours are to be believed, Roman is dropping the cash for Pastore and Modric.  Yes! Both of them. That, my friend, could be a totally different midfield.

I am also looking forward to what he can do with Kakuta when he returns as well as Lucas Piazon in January.

I am trying to restrict the argument to your bullshit so it doesn't go out of hand. However, it looks like at this point it will.



You can argue the same for every manager. Every manager tries new things every season. One season, Wenger is playing counter attacking football, the other he's playing tippy tappy. Every manager tweaks with their teams every time, pre-season or not. Even when they sign a new player, they know. Because that's why they signed the player in the first place. You can say the same about any manager.

AVB has not only watched 15 of Chelsea's current squad over and over again, he knows them inside out. If we have to play an emergency CL game tomorrow, AVB already knows what 11 is tried and tested. This you cannot argue with me. It's 2 weeks to the kick off of our first PL game and you are trying to tell me that he "doesn't know" by now? Phock what he tells the press. Who cares about that drivel?

Now lemme tell you how daft you are. Chelsea currently have Malouda, Drogba, Anelka, Torres, Kalou in attack. He already knows how those 5 all play. You are telling me that because one young player which is Sturridge, he suddenly doesn't know? That is st.upid to say the least.

If he is getting them to play a different way, then that is different. Every manager tries to get their players to play a different way every single pre-season. Is it because they don't know their players? No.

However, they all know how their players can play. And this was your statement.

he doesn't know what system works with the players he's got and is trying to find out.

And that is a big lie. And you are acting like a chump. Not knowing what system works with your players is different from trying out other things with your players which other managers do anyway. Call them my imaginations for all I care, it still doesn't help your argument.

Defining the phrase "Find out" means nothing until you apply it. To "find out" what the right balance is, is very different from

not  knowing what system works with the players he's got and is trying to find out.

But Debo is a cretin, he cannot understand this.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I will give life an opportunity of a life time and allow you retract that. Say something like AVB is trying out other things with the team he already knows and I will give it to you. But for now you are running in circles, reading up dictionaries, and incredibly, still managing to make a foo,l of yourself.

Full time jare. 4-0

uzezi82:
The sooner AVB gets back to the UK and this silly waste of time tour

finishes the better. There is some serious restructuring to be getting on with if we are serious about the next campaign.

What is this? You think they are wasting time there?

Ogbeni mada oro ru. This is what you said.

he doesn't know what system works with the players he's got and is trying to find out.

And my argument was engineered to contrast this view. And what you have said above is a complete lie. There is a clear difference between trying to find a balance between youth and old players and according to you "not knowing what system works with the players he's got"

And I tell you again, you are a complete foo.l for saying this. I mean look at what you are trying to push forward, argue and then attempt to twist.

What does listing names on paper have to do with the fact that AVB is experimenting to find out what blend works best for him now? You are quite daft to think that the ability to list players means the coach will play them in that manner.

What listing names on paper has to do with this is that you claim[i] "he doesn't know what system works with the players he's got"[/i]

And that my friend is a goof because,

Was AVB in charge of scouting the opposition when he was previously at Chelski or what nonsense are you spewing?

Yes he was. And that's why he knows what system his players can play. And you trying to tell me otherwise is crap.