₦airaland Forum

Logicboy03: Occam's razor doesnt work always.

You are asking me to blieve your easy answer- "God did it" since science and reason are too complex for you.

Try again

Please point to where I asked you to accept a "God did it" answer?

Logicboy03: This is the kind of mindset that only religious brainwashing can do.

-Studies show that atheists are actually more knowledgeable than theists/religious people when it comes to religious knowledge
-Studies show that secular countries are generally more peaceful than religious ones
-Studies show that christians are more likely to hold racist views than non-religious people
-Christians divorce more than atheist


People commit genocides despite believing in God. Morality is not a function of God or religion. People like you can not see facts before your own eyes. Atheists have no reason to do good, as you believe. Do you as a christian have any reason to do good? [b]Afterall, your bible tells you to do evil.....slavery is accepted, subjugation of women in churches, murder/discrimination against gays.....all in the bible. [/b]Think before you talj

Whether you or I adhere to morals does not negate what morality is or it's source. Can I acknowledge that morals come from God and still behave immorally, if course I can. Does that negate morality or its source? No.

Secondly, with regard to the bold. There is much more to all these things than what you state. For example, scholarly research has revealed that the practice of slavery in OT times is radically different from the middle passage, colonial America slavery that most of us associate with. It's almost insulting that you feel that Christians haven't looked into these topics.

Logicboy03: An atheist can be religious but atheism is not a religion.

Surely, you know that there's something bad with religion and so youwil tell the lie that atheism is a religion so that you can pull atheists down with you. Sorry, try harder.

Since we've discussed this issue prior, you know I'm just having a bit of fun. I'm fully aware of the definition of atheism. I just wanted to point out that fact because it is immensely interesting. For people who are so convinced there is no God, they are willing to expend so much to talk about it. Hmmm...

Logicboy03: Arrogance of religion.

Putting aside that your comment has nothing to do with number 4 on the list, you are telling me that you are somehow more aware of the world just because you are a christian (without proof!). When you bring evidence for your supernatural lies, then we can talk

You are doing a kind of special pleading as seen in number 6-

"You just have to have faith in the supernatural!!!"

No one is asking you to have blind faith. Simply to look for the evidence that Christ was a true historical figure. Now from there, feel free to apply Occam's Razor.

texanomaly: He is well aware of the doctrinal preface here. He probably knows the text of the bible better than either of us. He does not believe in God. And he doesn't believe Jesus Christ is our Savior, or bridge of any kind. This type of explanation, and any number of scriptural references are bandied daily. They are not effective tools for convincing an atheist of anything. I'm not saying give up. I certainly won't. I care enough not to do that. I just think we Christians need some new material. I haven't figured out what that might be yet, but I'm not giving up.


@ LB
Morning

My job is not to convince atheists but merely to state what the truth is. Whether an atheist accepts it or not is not by my doing. If two soldiers come to battle, they both make sure they have their weapons ready at all times. I think you will agree that the moment one soldier convinces the other to cast away his weapon before they can fight, that soldier has already lost.

I know of no better weapon than the words of Christ and that is what I will use.

@LogicBoy, #4: are you willing to follow the process by which to discover God revealed through the person of Jesus Christ?

You must realize that we are talking two distinct modalities: the natural and the supernatural. The natural falls short in providing an understanding of the supernatural.

If you choose only the natural mode only then you can only operate within that sphere. It's like if you only spoke Yoruba and I only spoke Igbo. We require a bridge, (i.e. a translator) to help us connect. Jesus Christ is that bridge that connects us to God.

@LogicBoy, more and more, number 14 is becoming untrue isn't it?

All these atheist churches springing up. A whole lot of time, money, and resources being dedicated to the idea that something doesn't exist.

Mr Troll: why do you guys always assume that if left alone, man will not be good? Maybe that is the doctrine you guys have been taught, the total depravity of man. For your info, there is also no obligation to do evil. Its a 2 way street.

all morality is relative. Theists just use special pleading.

The entire record of human history shows that the propensity for evil is greater than the propensity for good. You ever ask yourself why that is? Countless studies have shown that humans will naturally try to get away by cheating others if they know they can get away with it.

There's no obligation to not do evil.

"all morality is relative" - this is exactly the point. Under a certain set of circumstances, if you subscribe to an atheist mindset, you can justify anything.

Nice try with number one. The truth is that when one operates under an atheist mindset, one has no true reason to be moral. This is not to say that atheists aren't capable of doing great good. Of course they are. There is the capacity for good and evil in everyone. The point is that there is no obligation to do good. Many great philosophers and atheists have conceded this point. For western-minded atheists, they just don't want to admit that there morality has its foundation in Judeo-Christianity.

With atheism, morality is relative.

plaetton: As per the bolded, thousands of Fillipinos who believed in Jesus did perish a weeks ago through an act of god incident.
So where was Jesus?
If Jesus/God cannot save the faithful from a tempest storm, then what is the use of faith and prayers?.
So, my point stands that believers in fairy skydaddies carry a much bigger burden than non-believers because aside from praying incessantly for this blessing and that protection, you have to deal with daily agony of ufulfilled expectations from the omni omni sky daddy.

The bold you highlighted is not speaking of fleshly death but spiritual death or the second death. The death of our Filipino brethren is tragic but accepting Jesus doesn't mean that you are then immune to all the bad things in the world. We will all die of something. That's natural. BUT, because many of those Filipinos believe in Jesus, they are now in the presence of God, where their joy is eternal. You see, it depends on perspective. Most people are afraid of death because they see it as final. For the believer, it is the beginning of eternity.

For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. (Romans 14:8 NKJV)

I'm glad you did this post. It just shows how great God is and that a great man can come to recognize the truth that is Jesus Christ. Can't wait to see him in heaven.

I guess you atheists just can't get enough of God. Seriously though, It is good that you do spend time thinking about the truth. I sincerely urge you to continue to look into the truth. It is not unheard of that atheists have come to Christ.

To respond:
Once again we come to the popular misconception that giving your life to Christ should produce signs of material prosperity. Nothing is further from the truth. In fact the opposite is almost always true since material prosperity tends to remove one's need for God.

Jesus states it clearly as to why man should be reconciled with his creator:
For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? (Mark 8:36 NKJV)

If material blessings is what someone desires, they don't need God for that. Eventually though, everything thing that a man places value on (his idols) will fade and when difficult times come such a person often collapses under the weight. You just need to look at all the vices and addictions most people are enslaved by.

Why do we need God?

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (John 3:16 NKJV)

and

Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. (John 14:27 NKJV)

etc...

Of

truthislight: No where, it just vanishes!

When your caddle 'light' goes off, does it go anywhere ?

What then do you make of the judgment? There must be something to judge.

truthislight: Does the 'light' (illumination) from an electric bulb returns to the Generator when the current goes out

So where does it go?

I think the following scripture also helps to aid our understanding:

If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. And if they were all one member, where would the body be? But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, (I Corinthians 12:15, 17-23 NKJV)

fredx4: Does that mean that there some things in the bible that we shouldn't follow

This is exactly what we start to get when we pick and choose which I am not accusing Mighty Sparrow if doing.

The problem most people have with the directive that men are the only ones to be pastors is the misconception that this implies male superiority and implies inequality. This is false. First, how do we define equality between the sexes? Whatever way we look at it, we aren't equal. Males and females are inherently different. It's an issue of roles not equality.

Both male and female have their roles and are equally important. Are the ear and eye equal? No, both they are both important for the body to function properly. The roles a man occupies does not mean because a woman cannot occupy the role, she is less and he is more.

The bible is quite clear that when it comes to pastoring a flock, that role should be occupied by a man. In essence the ministry of pastors and apostles. This though is not to be extended into other areas. Women can be evangelists, teachers, prophets, etc.

JMAN05: chapter 14:13-15

O that in She′ol you would conceal me,

That you would keep me secret until your anger turns back,

That you would set a time limit for me and remember me!

14 If an able-bodied man dies can he live again?

All the days of my compulsory labor I shall wait,

Until my relief comes.

15 You will call, and I myself shall answer you.

For the work of your hands you will have a yearning."

You shall be in the grave until he calls. that is only when you will rise.

So the soul doesn't return to God when one dies?

Please just speak to what Jesus is saying about a soul being cast into hell.

And what do you make of this scripture?
Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7 NKJV)

And this one?
But I will warn you whom you should fear: fear Him Who, after killing, has power to hurl into hell (Gehenna); yes, I say to you, fear Him! (Luke 12:5 AMP)

Is this parabolic? Or is Christ saying that there is a place where souls go.

So what you are all saying is there is no resurrection of the dead?

truthislight: "The dead are unconsciouse of nothing", the bible says.

So, all those that have died are just dead, the next thing for them is their resurection and then all will be Judge by Jesus christ,;

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgement. " (John 5:28-29).
...........................

"I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;" (2 Timothy 4:1).
....................................

"Because God hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead." (Acts 17:31).
..........................................:....

That 'day' of Judgement is = 1000yrs as shown in Revelation 20:

"For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night." (Psalm 90:4).
................................

People that have never heard about Jesus befor they die will be given equal opurtunity like we today that have heard and made our choices.

They will be taught the things in the scrolls that will be open:

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." (Revelation 20:12).
...............................
After that teaching, those that refuses to respond will be destroyed, and that will be their second dead, ofcouse, there is no promise of a resurrection from the second dead.

Peace.

There are a few problems with the way you quoted those scripture but I won't focus on that now.

My question is not what happens to the body but the soul? Where does the soul go after death?

truthislight: "The dead are unconsciouse of nothing", the bible says.

So, all those that have died are just dead, the next thing for them is their resurection and then all will be Judge by Jesus christ,;

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgement. " (John 5:28-29).
...........................

"I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;" (2 Timothy 4:1).
....................................

"Because God hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead." (Acts 17:31).
..........................................:....

That 'day' of Judgement is = 1000yrs as shown in Revelation 20:

"For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night." (Psalm 90:4).
................................

People that have never heard about Jesus befor they die will be given equal opurtunity like we today that have heard and made our choices.

They will be taught the things in the scrolls that will be open:

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." (Revelation 20:12).
...............................
After that teaching, those that refuses to respond will be destroyed, and that will be their second dead, ofcouse, there is no promise of a resurrection from the second dead.

Peace.

There are a few problems with the way you quoted those scripture but I won't focus on that now.

My question is not what happens to the body but the soul?

truthislight: "The wages of sin is death", i belieive you have red that befor ?

Ok. So what is the judgment in Revelations about then?

[quote author=frosbel][/quote]We just appear to be going back and forth trying to discuss a huge topic. Let's break it down to bits and for now focus on the issue of what happens to the unbeliever when they die.

What is your position?

frosbel: definitely not God the Son !

I'm curious as to how you interpret John 1.

frosbel: oops, show me in the bible where Jesus is called God the Son.

So you deny the deity of Christ?

frosbel: and your position is not biblical.


Can you answer these questions :

1. If we were to take the parable of Lazarus as fact, it infers that there is not ONE hell but TWO, i.e one after death and another after judgement.

Q1 : Can you tell the house which HELL Jesus was referring to when he preached on this subject ?


2. Consider the following scripture and answer the questions.


"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire." - Revelation 20:14

In the following scripture , note the following points :


1. Death gave up the dead
2. The sea gave up the dead
3. Hell or Hades gave up the dead.



Q 1. If people die and go to Hell immediately, why are they not all in Hell, why are some in the sea ?
Q 2. What does 'Death gave up the dead' mean in relation to 'Hell gave up the dead'
Q 3. Death is also thrown into the lake of fire, does this mean Death will also be tormented forever and never die ?

Thanks.

1. There aren't two Hells. Only one. The soul of a dead unbeliever currently resides in hell. The lake of fire is an entirely different thing from hell.

2. It is clear that it is bodies that are being given up by the sea. The word Hell in that scripture is better translated as the grave. You will notice that in scripture, death and hell (the grave) are very often used together. Paul uses them together in 1 Cor. 15. It is simply meant to convey that the grave is a representation of death. The idea in Revelations is essentially that no matter how your body perished, in the sea, decay by burial, however, that body will be called out of death.

3. Death being cast in the lake of fire signifies the destruction of death. This is the same for the unbelievers. Now there is not much more said about death being cast into the lake of fire. But you know what I won't do, I won't start trying to make things fit my thinking. I'll simply accept that further information isn't available. But the information that is available is what happens to unbelievers. And every time that information is provided, the text often includes phrases like "forever and ever", "everlasting", "eternal", etc.

I might even understand if those phrases show up in one place but they don't. They show up over and over. So my question to you is, how are you able to twist the meaning of words like "eternal", "forever and ever", and "everlasting". Did these words all of a sudden lose their meaning?

truthislight: So, you did not say that Lazarus was in the Bosom of Abraham ?

Where then is the bosom of Abraham ?

You are saying that the rich man and Lazarus was just a parable and did not happend right ?

Hence, never you bring it up here again as evidence during debate if you never said that Abraham was in Heaven, against Jesus words that no man has ever ascended to heaven.

Peace.

I said it has been argued that it was an actual story and not a parable. Didn't say I took that position. In fact, I went on to say that whether one considers the story to be actual or a parable isn't the issue. The issue is whether or not Hell is spoken of as a real place or symbolically. I take the position that it is a real place.

I think you read something into my post that wasn't there.

truthislight: From that ^ your quotation, it says the devil will be cast into the lake of fire.

Can a literal physical fire burn the devil a spirit being without physical body ? You answer please.

And again, death and Hedes(grave) was also cast into this lake of fire:

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Revelation 20:14).
...........

Do you mind telling me how literal fire can burn those up there ? "death and hell(grave).

Am waiting.

Peace.

Sure if you can tell me where I talked about a literal fire.

The point is that there is a place if eternal torment.

frosbel: You contradicted yourself on the same sentence. You said the wages of sin is death and then tormented forever and ever.




No, I will preach as Paul preached, as Peter preached, as the early church preached , as Jesus preached etc - Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.


If you want to go and shout about a non-existent place, that's your prerogative, but I assure you that you are on your own and not in any form or shape representing the God of the bible.

If you are indeed sincere about faithfully preaching then you should be teaching about judgment and the reality of hell. The below are the words if Christ himself:

And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:40, 41, 45, 46 NKJV)

Uyi Iredia: Burning people for eternity, irregardless of age or conduct because they disbelieve a story is perfect justice If this isn't an example of how religion twists one's mind, tell me what it is ? SMH.

It is what produced the disbelief that will condemn people.