₦airaland Forum

rationalmind: To start with, I find it bizarre how on earth you still find a prophecy that clearly used the word "soon" valid after ten good years.

There is nothing supernatural about what you explained above. Back then in 2012 when chelsea won the champions league, I told my friends long before the match that the match was going to end in a 1-1 and chelsea will go on to win the penalty shoot out 4 goals to 3. Guess what happened, the match ended just exactly as I had predicted.

Was that also supernatural? People predict the outcome of 10, 14 matches and it all comes to pass. Also supernatural?

What the man did is nothing more than a guess and that it even took 10 years for what he referred to as soon to occur shows his failed prophecy has nothing to do with your travel.

I can't say that I'm surprised. It is a shame though. Remain in peace brother.

rationalmind: Why won't I believe if it makes sense. What do you people take us for?

Ok. I will tell you a story. In 1989, I was going my way. I didn't even know God in a serious way. A prophet from the C & S church, someone I didn't know from Adam just came up to me and said God said to him that soon I would be going to America for his work. I'm not even a C&S member.

Over the next two years I tried many schemes to force the issue. It didn't work. I even tried to get to the UK. I was willing to settle for that, it didn't work. In 1998, after I had already consigned myself to Nigeria, God sent word again that I should play the Visa Lottery that year for America. In 1999, I arrived in America.

I have sinced returned to Nigeria. I'm thankful for the experience and it has helped me in the life I'm leading here at home.

I wonder if you will truly believe me.

onetrack: Paul wrote in Koine Greek; he was from Tarsus, a strongly Hellenistic city. His cultural background and his knowledge reflect this in his letters.



Comparative.

None of that means he was Greek. I can grow up in London and write in the queen's English, I'm still Nigerian not British. You misspoke. Paul himself mentions his entire upbringing was in Pharasetical Judaism. He was a Pharisee of Pharisees.

rationalmind: Honestly, uve been saying nonsense all along. You even said only judeo-christian faith maintains the universe had a beginning. That is outright bullshyt. Have you read of the yoruba version of creation?

Anyway, away from all that, you said uve experienced some supernatural things. That's the part I'm more interested in. Pls, tell us some of those supernatural things uve experienced. Remember as a christian, ure not supposed to tell lies. So, I'm waiting.

The question is, would you believe even if you were told or have you put up walls of unbelief? It's a serious question.

Nigellus_Hosan: They clearly haven't read tales where Beautiful Ladies..
Whole families were fed to Lions..
Pretty ladies who dressed in White..
Many were princesses..
Empresses who turned Christian all of a sudden..
They were faced with terrifying deaths yet they could never deny Jesus..

They chose to die Instead..
Bros stop replying these people they av no work..


I can't believe i wasted 50mb just because i was replying Condemned souls..

I think I just might take your advice. We are at 11 pages into the thread now.

onetrack: I work in the field of history.

Which history?

onetrack: The Bible.

Point it out please.

rationalmind: Honestly, uve been saying nonsense all along. You even said only judeo-christian faith maintains the universe had a beginning. That is outright bullshyt. Have you read of the yoruba version of creation?

Anyway, away from all that, you said uve experienced some supernatural things. That's the part I'm more interested in. Pls, tell us some of those supernatural things uve experienced. Remember as a christian, ure not supposed to tell lies. So, I'm waiting.

Please expound on the Yoruba creation narrative if you don't mind.

Keluong: The same way "true" moslems have come to realize that jesus was a prophet.
Its all in your mind.

Or it could be the supernatural things that I've experienced.

9jadelta: what's up with the question?
u said, i was assuming god was created right?
did god just appear from nowhere?

The question assumes that God had to be created.

Obi1kenobi: No, there isn't. There are unsubstantiated tales of his divinity. Completely unproven. His historical existence doesn't validate the christian faith in any way.

There is no truth that I've not long sought in desperation to justify my christian faith for years. Until I had the courage to look myself in the mirror and admit I was deceiving myself. I've found that the day a religious person ever questions and admits a particular thing in his faith is wrong and opens the door ever so slightly to think outside his bubble, everything suddenly comes crashing down in an avalanche.

Please don't think that you're the only one who scrutinizes their faith. I do as well. But I have come to know that Jesus is truth. And many others have as well. There are many atheists who at one time held your position and they came to faith in Christ. You'd have to ask why fishermen would sign up to be ostracized and die horrible deaths over "tales" even after they've been beaten, tortured, and warned to desist over and over. What earthly gain did they receive by propagating Christ?

Obi1kenobi: Wow! How deluded and ignorant is that bolded part? Only the Judaic religions claim the universe has a beginning?
For starters, how many of the tens (possibly hundreds) of thousands of religions do you know anything about to make such an outrageous claim? What makes the shepherd tales of the creation story in Genesis any different from several other creation stories in other religions? Particularly seeing as it has no scientific basis whatsoever?

Don't kid yourself. The truth you tell yourself that you know, is a truth you acquired due to your upbringing and your colonial historical ties to the religion you practise. It has no factual basis and isn't a superior truth to all the other claims out there.

Christ being a historical figure is of no consequence to the truth of christianity. There's no evidence of his divinity or his miracles. He's pretty much insignificant even in the documented history of the Jews themselves.

Of course there is proof of his divinity. Of course the fact that he was a historical figure is of great consequence to the validity of the Christian faith.

The question is are you willing to seek out that truth if it isn't on your own terms?

Steiner89: I don't really have the energy to argue with nativeboy... as an experienced agnostic. I've come to d realization dat such sensitive topics of this cadre cannot be debated amicably... We at d logic end are in most cases widely read dan u guyz. The Bible inclusive. u see u guyz on d faith end try very hard to challenge ur innate mind and help ur religion/God to justify its inconsistent and often times illogical tenets. e.g dere ar indians, Scandinavians, Mediterraneans, Arabs, caucasians, negroes, Aborigines, Mongoloids. how on earth did we all come from 2 Hebrews? cos as a biochemist, I know it's scientifically impossible. plus d first humanoids are from Africa according to fossil records using radio carbon dating...... we tender and buttress our arguments with facts(proven truths). U guyz throw reason away and ponder on d hearsays dat has effectively brainwashed you...... My stance is dat Weda God does exist or not cannot be established.... our complex reality created d illusion of a supremo and every being strives to identify with d possibility... atheist say Nay! I say Neither. religion say yea we know him. this is what he likes, does and how he plays. pure nonsensical bullshit

Why do you assume you have read more than I on this issue? Does it seem ridiculous that a believer might have read into atheism.

Btw, where did you get your information that Adam and Eve were Hebrews?

9jadelta: there was no assumption?
was only going by his logic.

Read the question again

dalaman: The word universe was not mentioned in the bible, the bible only said in the begining God created the heaven and the earth. . .The 6 day creation account in the bible is so wrong that many people have discarded it completely , while others just say its an allegory. You can't eat your cake and have it, if the bible gets it right on the universe having a begining then where does conventional science say that the earth and the universe came into being together in the begining? Just keep your religious beliefs to yourself and stop using science to justify it. Now show me the scientific journal that says the earth and the universe were created together in the begining asumming the heaven talked about in the bible means the universe.

The heavens and the earth. Correlate that with John 1. Everything was made by He who made it in the beginning.

dalaman: The word universe was not mentioned in the bible, the bible only said in the begining God created the heaven and the earth. . .The 6 day creation account in the bible is so wrong that many people have discarded it completely , while others just say its an allegory. You can't eat your cake and have it, if the bible gets it right on the universe having a begining then where does conventional science say that the earth and the universe came into being together in the begining? Just keep your religious beliefs to yourself and stop using science to justify it. Now show me the scientific journal that says the earth and the universe were created together in the begining asumming the heaven talked about in the bible means the universe.

Please point to where I argued the universe and the earth were created together.

onetrack: Remember that Paul was a Greek Jew. He spoke Greek and lived in a sea of pagan Greek culture. And the pagan philosophers would have been right not to accept Paul's claim of resurrection, given that it doesn't happen.

Paul makes use of a number of Stoic ideas, that self-control was a good in and of itself (instead of just following a command of god); or that god was the logos (the word) which activates all things....

He also uses Platonic ideas to discuss the world beyond this one in the same sense that Plato's cave describes our inability to perceive the world beyond...

etc.

Also Paul was a Jew with Roman Citizenship. Please provide the source of your claim that Paul was a Greek Jew.

onetrack: Remember that Paul was a Greek Jew. He spoke Greek and lived in a sea of pagan Greek culture. And the pagan philosophers would have been right not to accept Paul's claim of resurrection, given that it doesn't happen.

Paul makes use of a number of Stoic ideas, that self-control was a good in and of itself (instead of just following a command of god); or that god was the logos (the word) which activates all things....

He also uses Platonic ideas to discuss the world beyond this one in the same sense that Plato's cave describes our inability to perceive the world beyond...

etc.

And you surmised all this how?

onetrack: I am saying that Hellenistic ideas, particularly Stoicism, had a major impact on the thinking of early Christians, including Paul. To ask me to prove that every idea came from Hellenistic philosophy is a misrepresentation of my position. Prove to me that those statements did NOT come from Hellenistic philosophy.

Now you're changing your tune a bit. How did Stoicism impact Paul and the early Christians when he debated them and pointed them towards Christ?

Then certain Epicurean and Stoic philosophers encountered him. And some said, “What does this babbler want to say?” Others said, “He seems to be a proclaimer of foreign gods,” because he preached to them Jesus and the resurrection.... Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; (Acts 17:18, 22 NKJV)

And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, “We will hear you again on this matter. ” So Paul departed from among them. However, some men joined him and believed, among them Dionysius the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others with them. (Acts 17:32-34 NKJV)

If anything they yielded to his truth.

9jadelta: who created god? god didn't happen by accident too. god must have a god.
god is too perfect to have created itself/himself/herself

You've introduced an assumption in asking your question. Asking who created God assumes God was created.

Nigellus_Hosan: I thought u were an atheist..
Or was i mistaken...

I am not an atheist.

Steiner89: We have people who are baffled and have lost the inclination to accept any of the amazingly multifarious concepts of God that is taught in religions. Each religion paints a different picture of God and incredibly, each wants its own concept to be accepted by others and when this does not happen, they brand those who refuse to accept their theories as condemned and subdue the mind of their believers with the ultimate theoretical fear of an eternally burning hell. It has been scientifically proven that all humans are susceptible to the illusion of the truth effect. The more you hear something without even seeing, the more you believe it’s true no matter how staggering, ridiculous and illogical it sounds. Its frightening how often people believe in what they least know.
What is most interesting about all these is that each religion and denomination tries to monopolise the Almighty, that they alone have access to him and that only the way they have prescribed can lead to him and no other way. Thus, they force their opinion upon the world. Strong willed people who still have within them their humanity could not accept any longer the reason for the various versions held out today of the concept of the almighty.
Unfortunately, the commercialism that religion has become today makes it imperative that each religion and denomination have to device means and strategies ways to capture a chunk of the 'market'. They do this by besmirching those who do not share their views or who refuse to be drawn into their web; and tag as possessed by the devil those that totally denounce religion altogether. That is so prevalent today.
In addition, “there is so much about life, existence and the Almighty that no religion has been able to explain” and so the word 'faith' was coined to get people to believe the unbelievable (Faith cometh by hearing) Lolz. They have not been able to give a logical reason to so many things that are in existence today, for example why some people are born into particular circumstances, why from the very beginning some are exposed to the very hard side of life while others are born with silver spoons. Why natural disasters happen and why there is so much wickedness in the world today. All they tell you is that it’s for a purpose because they are equally clueless.
Given the number of religious people in Nigeria, the country ought to be the best country in the world to live in. But the reality today should tell you that what is done in the religions cannot be the way because it has not brought us progress. Clear and deep thinking people usually reject religion and that is what is often mistaken to be atheism. Fela, Soyinka, Einstein, Galileo, Bill Gates etc. Thus beloved as a free thinker, I might have Agnostic views about God but I strongly believe that every faith by notion is actually a mirage!

Think about it for a moment.
QUESTIONS
What faith were you born into (religion)?

Despite your conviction, how do you know of a surety that your faith is the right path to God?

Does your faith not teach you that goodness, salvation, paradise-like life, making heaven, etc. is only 100% achievable via its own tenets, doctrines, and methodologies alone?

Does your faith not castigate other faiths as erroneous, wrong, demonic and misleading?

Does your faith not claim that it isn’t a religion? That it’s a way of life cum personal relationship with a deity? (very rampant nowadays)

Do the leaders in your faith not immediately brush aside, religiously criticize, and even tag as devil inspired; staggering milestones, inventions, and findings attained by mankind that “ultimately disproved” initial claims, myths, Beliefs, sentiments and fables they illogically sermonize to their followers/disciples? E.g. (Space exploration, Dinosaur fossils, Extinction, Cloning, GMO, DNA fusion, Gene elucidation, E=MC2, Rainbow, Lightning etc.)

If not for the men (born to this world like every other) who centuries ago cascaded to your own end of the world the very faith you now practice religiously, what would have your belief system looked like?

If there's one true God, how come 7 billion people on earth's surface are divided on the concept of him and his ways? Even within a particular faith there are divisions. Christianity for example has about 30,000 sects. All this cannot be the will of any supreme being.

ANSWERS
Every man born into this world was born with a mind as clear and blank as a plain sheet of paper with no belief. In other words, every man was born an atheist. Growing up, our immediate environment has instilled in us what we now know or believe about God

The wonders of the universe and our complex reality created the idea of a supernatural being in man. Religions attempt to identify and describe the being the best possible way they can.

If God exist then we don’t need belief, belief is necessary because of lack of evidence. Faith is needed so people can believe; if God shows up today, religion will end.


We humans are born empirical beings. That is; we apply logic in every aspect of our existence. Our faith is the only branch of that existence that is at cross-road with this empirical behaviour

If you are still reading this, there is a 93% chance that your belief in a faith system isn’t because you converted into it but simply because you were born into a family, community or society that practices that faith of your belief! If you were born elsewhere under different circumstances, far greater chances are you would be a believer of a different faith.

With or without religion, good people can still behave well and bad people can as well do evil; but for good people to do evil, that takes religion.

The 2 major religions in Nigeria: Islam (50%) which came in through the ancient northern caliphate cities in the 17th century via Arabian/Saharan trade believes Christianity is wrong. Christianity (45%) which came in through the southern sea shores of Calabar and Lagos via the Portuguese missionaries and British colonial masters believes Islam is wrong. I strongly believe they are both right.

Believe it or not beloved, your faith is irrelevant; because all theists (people of belief in God) in the human race have a different concept of it.

So how is one more legit than the rest?
Is it by the hearsays consistently wired into your mental faculty from birth?
Is it by who came first?
Is it by their scriptures, doctrines, dogmas and religious mantras?
Actually, they “all” teach some form of goodness, divinity, supplication, ethics, morals, and life after death. So which one is the correct one? If none cum all of them are right, does that not mean that none of them really matter?
Dinosaurism was founded 5000BC ( lolz just kidding)
Judaism was founded 1300BC
Taoism was founded in 550BC
Buddhism was founded in 520BC in India
Confucianism was founded in 471BC in China
Christianity was founded in 30AD in Israel (Protestant, Roman catholic, Orthodoxy, Mormon)
Islam was founded in 622AD in Saudi Arabia
Sikhism was founded in 1500AD
Jainism was founded in eastern India
Grail, Jehovah’s Witness, eckankar, Ifa etc.
N.B this aren’t idol worshipping religions
Religion creates rifts and divisions in the world; it causes backward thinking, thereby halting medical, scientific, and humanistic progress. Religion locks young people in right from birth and ensure they never ever have the opportunity to look in any other direction. It encourages people to be content rather than try to better themselves, and to trust in an invisible friend rather than strive to succeed. It takes away the joy that we might have in our own successes and instead throws them at the feet of this invisible being that might have had something or nothing to do with it. It makes people sit idly by and pray rather than stand up immediately and do something about it.
Born into a Christian family, I was made to shove down my being the very idea that somebody (I never saw, nobody I know ever saw, nobody knows anybody who ever saw) died on a cross for me 2013 years ago; and this martyr has significant relevance to my ultimate happiness in this life and hereafter.
In summary, I must confess faith has its positives for the society. It gives people modest perspective, things to strive towards and helps keep human behaviour in check and under control to a very great degree. It prevents chaos, freewill, and maintains a global equilibrium. If we did not have faith systems, the world would be a jungle, Wild West (anything goes), and an extremely dangerous place to live in as people would have no fear of karma and repercussions. The problem I just have with faith is that it’s very foundation is a paradox and it should never be used as a premise to justify or manipulate human actions. Faith is a construct of the human mind by men with far greater intellect than their peers. It is reason and not faith that has brought advances to mankind and every field of human endeavour. In the end, only your clear thought (conscience) and not faith is the ultimate arbiter of truth!!! But faith as a whole is good to have around as mankind don’t all possess equal footing.
Even after objectively reading this article, it’s only natural that you’ll most likely choose to discard this truth because you lack the guts to review the religious status quo of your birth mind for fear of the unknown, family persecution and societal discrimination….

SEEK KNOWLEDGE TODAY!!!

It isn't either-or. It isn't science or God. It's both. Understanding how something works does not negate the creator. For example, if I asked you how a car was made, you would tell me all the science that went into it. Still, it was made by Henry Ford. The car didn't assemble itself and the laws of science didn't build the engine.

Secondly, it matters not whether there are a billion religions or perspectives. What is important is truth. Not all perspectives are valid. Only truth is valid. For example, only the Judeo-Christian faith maintained that the universe had a beginning. All the other faiths and perspectives has their own ideas about the origin of the universe. Eventually, only one prevailed. Now ask yourself, how did Bronze Age humans know the universe had a beginning? I suppose that's for another thread.

It isn't about "my religion is better than yours" or "my God is greater than your god", or "i'm better than you because of...", etc. It is about what is true. For example, was Jesus Christ a true historical figure? Yes. Hardly anyone still tries to disprove the existence of Christ. Many have tried, none have succeeded.

If you are a sincere skeptic, then I urge you to reconsider Christ again. Jesus is truth.

onetrack: Then you didn't read the link I sent. The Judeo-Christian values were defined at a time when Hellenistic philosophy was the dominant viewpoint of that part of the world. These people did not live in complete isolation of what was around them. There is a significant influence of Hellenistic philosophy on Christianity. Even the idea of the Trinity itself is probably no more than an imitation of the Greek mystery cults that were flourishing at the time of Jesus.

Please point to these influences. So when Jesus stated:

And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.” (John 10:28-30 NKJV)

He was influenced by Hellenistic philosophy?

Or when John wrote:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (John 1:1-3 NKJV)

He too was influenced by Hellenistic philosophy?

Did Hellenistic Greeks believe that the universe had a beginning? I think you know the answer.

onetrack: History is not the same as a philosophical view of the world and god. Sure Jewish history predates that of the Hellenistic world, but a fair amount of Greek philosophy entered Jewish thinking beginning with Philo of Alexandria and continuing on up to the 10th century when Greek philosophy began to be studied again in the Arab-Persian world. But no, the Greeks were definitely not monotheists.

For the Hellenstic influences in Christianity, a look at this page might shed some light on the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic_philosophy_and_Christianity

The content of that page is stating that some of the Christian fathers used Greek philosophical thinking to make their own philosophical arguments about the Judeo-Christian God. Again, this has nothing to do with Judeo-Christian values/ethics. There are no Hellenistic influences on Judeo-Christian values/ethic. Those were already well defined before the Greeks came on the scene.

onetrack: Christian values and, to a lesser extent, Jewish values are themselves largely based on pagan Hellenistic philosophies such as the Stoics, as well as the thinking of Plato. Judaism and Christianity are not exclusively the beginning of 'modern' moral values.

This is a false statement. Jewish history predates the Greek. Please point to where the Jews became exposed to Hellenistic philosophies. Was it the Greek concept of monotheism that the Jews took from them?

Which Christian values were taken from Hellenistic philosophy?

Deep Sight: Exactly. And that is what they in fact do, poker faced, and without blinking.

Whenever you have the time, read this thread.

https://www.nairaland.com/1520806/evolution-morality

Read ALL of it.

Thanks I will

Lord Nico: Morality is not connected to religion. We do not need religion to be good. Human morality has a Darwinian explanation: altruistic
genes, selected through the process of evolution, give people natural empathy.

Would you commit murder, rape or robbery if you knew that no
God existed? Only very few people would answer "yes", which undermines the claim that religion is needed to make us behave morally.

If you take a survey of the history of morality, you will find a moral Zeitgeist (the characteristic of an age) that continually evolves in society, generally progressing toward
liberalism. As it progresses, this moral consensus influences how religious leaders interpret their holy writings. In the past, with support from holy writings, it was okay to own slaves, to commit atrocities against prisoners of war, refuse rights to certain people based on race, culture etc, but in modern times, those acts are viewed as morally wrong.

Morality does not
originate from the Bible or any other holy book, rather our moral progress informs what part of the Bible Christians and other religious groups accept and
what they now dismiss.

Inspired by Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion"

You might want to read Dawkins' conclusions on good and evil. He states clearly that there is really no such thing as good and evil. We simply dance to the music of DNA. This is the morality of atheism.

Logicboy03: A link from a christian think tank disguised as scholarly?

The other is a random journal from a non-peer reviewed source

=========================================



You couldnt find proper scholarly work from accredited historians or researchers? huh?

Abeg, just accept that slavery of the worst kind was in the bible. Slaves were properties....I not talking of bondservants.....talking about slaves

So you wouldn't read it because it was written by a Christian scholar? Wow.

Also, slaves in OT were not seen as property but as humans. It's sad that you won't evil look at the evidence before making brash statements. In fact, the type of slavery (capture and sell) that was practiced in colonial America, the kind most people think of, was forbidden in the OT.

Logicboy03: The analogy is apt when it comes to the Nigerian govt sponsoring pilgrimage- a sign that christians and muslims generally do not know when to hold back their religion from someone's mouth
======================
It is not a church. You cant have a muslim church or a christian mosque or an atheist church.....contradiction.

These atheist gatherings are called "churches" because "church" is a more common and to the point term of describing the gathering in a country with lots of christian history. They are also called "churches" for sarcastic and satirical reasons. Afterall, comedians started it.

But no,

I don't see your point. I didn't argue for fusion of church and state. Also these "churches" were first established in England and Australia. These aren't places where religion is shoved down your throat.

Logicboy03: Occam's razor doesnt work always.

You are asking me to blieve your easy answer- "God did it" since science and reason are too complex for you.

Try again

I think you will find that Occam's Razor works with respect to the truth of Christ. I mean you would have to show a huge conspiracy between people living in different times and places.

Logicboy03: You just lied for your religion. Yet, you still believe that your God is the source of morality. The hypocrisy

The bolded in your comment is a lie! A sad lie that a black man should never even say.


What scholarly research made such claims?
Were slaves in the bible not beaten? (the bible guides you on how to beat your slaves)
Was African slavery not justified with the same bible?
Were foriegn slaves not property for life?
Were slaveholders not advised to take slaves from other lands?

Please read:

https://ojs.lib.byu.edu/spc/index.php/StudiaAntiqua/article/viewFile/11759/11770

http://christianthinktank.com/qnoslave.html

Logicboy03: I dont know how to rid you of this ignorant and biased belief in bold. Let me try with an analogy


Let's say the government announces a budget of 100 million naira a year for pilgrimages to the North pole for pilgrimage to feel the wintery goodness of Santa Claus. Everyone, including you will complain that it is a waste of money as Santa doesnt exist and we can do better things with that money. Funny enough, one foolish person then comes along to say "oh, for someone that doesnt believe in Santa Claus, NativeBoy sure spends a lot of time talking about santa" when you are complaining.


You cant shove your p**** down someone's throat and expect the person not to gaggle

False analogy. It's one thing to complain about Santa not being real. It's another to build your own church, for which you will be paying monthly rent and utility bills, and take up offerings, etc., for the simple sake that Santa doesn't exist.