correct my brother

NOWORRIES:

the seed is the WORD
NOT MONEY ACCORDING TO JESUS O

Lol, have you ever heard the word 'context'? The word 'seed' does not have only one meaning in context even in Jesus' teachings. In addition to the one you mentioned (from Luke 8:11), Jesus also said that 'the good seed are the children of the kingdom' (Matt. 13:38). However, this same word 'seed' is also used to refer to our Christian giving -

       'he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food,
        and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness'
       (2 Cor. 9:10)

Does the 'seed' in 2 Cor. 9:10 refer to the 'WORD' or to something else?

pilgrim,i now believed something is wrong with you,you are turning the bible upside down abi?re you trying to force tithing on people or what?may be that is were you depend on for feeding.

ajokeakin:

pilgrim,i now believed something is wrong with you,you are turning the bible upside down abi?re you trying to force tithing on people or what?may be that is were you depend on for feeding.

Please show me where I've ever tried to "force" anyone to tithe. If my reply above are buttressed by Scripture on the context of 'seed', why don't you share why or how the verses I quoted are not saying what I posted? Why do you have this habit of talking like a miserable pauper?

Lol! Nairaland has got to be the sweetest website in all the 3 w's.

Please correct me if I am wrong but I believe that the real meaning of seed (igbin in my mother's language) is something small that you put in the ground and a few weeks later a plant will sprout. The term can be extended to animals too where the germ/seed is called spermatozoa and ovum.

Apart from this which is the REAL meaning of seed the word can also be used metaphorically. It can be used as metaphor for something small that is sacrificed (or operated on in some way) to yield something greater like a tiny seed yield a great big tree.

I understand the sowing of the word as such a metaphor whereby someone hears a little something/idea and then as a consequence in his mind it blooms into a great concept. Here again something that can multiply or grow or get bigger is referred to as a seed.

So is money a seed. Yes, but not in the sense that any biblical passage I know mentions seed. Money is a seed because if you invest it wisely in the stock market then it will sprout and bloom and grow. But as with all seeds the birds will eat some, some will fall on rocky soil, some will be strangled by weeds etc.

But it is also said that each seed brings forth fruit according to it's kind. From this I would surmise that if I want to reap money then I have to sow money, yet if I want to reap righteousness then the seed to sow is righteousness (as a man soweth . . . innit? ) , if I want to reap trouble then I need to sow trouble. However I'm yet to understand this sowing money in order to reap righteousness.

May he that multiplies all seeds of every variety plant, animal or metaphorical please multiply the fruit of the righteousness seeds that we have sown o! Amen.

Pastor AIO:

So is money a seed. Yes, but not in the sense that any biblical passage I know mentions seed. Money is a seed because if you invest it wisely in the stock market then it will sprout and bloom and grow. But as with all seeds the birds will eat some, some will fall on rocky soil, some will be strangled by weeds etc.

Lol, it's clear that the 'seed' and 'sowing' in 2 Cor. 9:10 is in context referring to Christian financial giving.

Pastor AIO:

May he that multiplies all seeds of every variety plant, animal or metaphorical please multiply the fruit of the righteousness seeds that we have sown o! Amen.

Abi o.

pilgrim.1:

Lol, it's clear that the 'seed' and 'sowing' in 2 Cor. 9:10 is in context referring to Christian financial giving.

You forgot to mention that christian financial giving in the passage you mentioned was to help fellow needy christians in jerusalem and it cannot be used to justify the kind and purpose of church collections/offerings/tithes that is practised in our churches today. i just thougt i should point this out given your penchan to quote scripture out of context.

KunleOshob:

You forgot to mention that christian financial giving in the passage you mentioned was to help fellow needy christians in jerusalem and it cannot be used to justify the kind and purpose of church collections/offerings/tithes that is practised in our churches today. i just thougt i should point this out given your penchan to quote scripture out of context.

And which passage in the NT have you been quoting out of context to justify your "perfectly okay" tithes from income? We've been through your nightmare in that reference before, until you came round to admit what you had denied previously. Your penchant to self-destruct is magical in itself.

pilgrim.1:

And which passage in the NT have you been quoting out of context to justify your "perfectly okay" tithes from income? We've been through your nightmare in that reference before, until you came round to admit what you had denied previously. Your penchant to self-destruct is magical in itself.

Your penchant to quote out of context is not only lengendary but it also reveals a very conceited mind that is desperate to defend a certain position that as been clearly shown to be evil and contrary to the teachings of christ. When i wrote that it was perfectly okay to tithe from income i also put a caveat and that is the tither must know the truth about tithes and he must be doing it out of his own free volition and with the knowledge he doesn't have any christian obligation to do it unlike what your criminally inspired pastors preach.

Anti-tithers and their ways sha. Now na 'seed' be their problem. Anybody that says tithes is biblical is now a criminal and a pastor. Kunle even believes that he has some crown reserved for him for his 'work'. Stingy bunch of sadducees

Image123:

Anti-tithers and their ways sha. Now na 'seed' be their problem. Anybody that says tithes is biblical is now a criminal and a pastor. Kunle even believes that he has some crown reserved for him for his 'work'. Stingy bunch of sadducees

It is my christian duty to share the undiluted truth with others no matter whose ox is gored. Calling me stingy becos i am not ignorant enough to fall for your scam is actually very myopic and self delusional.

KunleOshob:

Your penchant to quote out of context is not only lengendary but it also reveals a very conceited mind that is desperate to defend a certain position that as been clearly shown to be evil and contrary to the teachings of christ.

Are you now "christ"? Sorry, oga. . you're neither the Redeemer nor the authority of the Word of God. The Christ we know from Scripture does not go about maliciously accusing pastors with your pseudo-spirituality and then come back complaining when your rantings are being addressed.

KunleOshob:

When i wrote that it was perfectly okay to tithe from income i also put a caveat and that is the tither must know the truth about tithes and he must be doing it out of his own free volition and with the knowledge he doesn't have any christian obligation to do it unlike what your criminally inspired pastors preach.

My pastors are not cowards like you, and they do not speak from both sides of their mouth as you do. For all your caveat accusations against pastors, where do you get your own "perfectly okay" tithing from? You speak about "truth" - just simply show it from the Scriptures. Too hard for you to do? . . .and you keep demanding from others the very thing you cannot demonstrate. Well done - your "crown" for justifying your adventures of accusations is waiting indeed.

pilgrim.1:

Are you now "christ"? Sorry, oga. . you're neither the Redeemer nor the authority of the Word of God. The Christ we know from Scripture does not go about maliciously accusing pastors with your pseudo-spirituality and then come back complaining when your rantings are being addressed.

On the contrary christ was constantly accusing pharisees[the pastors of that time] and condenming their hyprocysis. It is very evident that the pastors of today are not any better[probably even worse]

Tithe issue again? With the same DS and SS combatants,
A % requirement is not a real Christian practice and I look at it the same way I look at any scam

KunleOshob:

pilgrim.1 link=topic=113108.msg3965440#msg3965440 date=1243958339:

Are you now "christ"? Sorry, oga. . you're neither the Redeemer nor the authority of the Word of God. The Christ we know from Scripture does not go about maliciously accusing pastors with your pseudo-spirituality and then come back complaining when your rantings are being addressed.

On the contrary christ was constantly accusing pharisees[the pastors of that time] and condenming their hyprocysis. It is very evident that the pastors of today are not any better[probably even worse]

Okay, please quote me any verse where Christ "constantly accused" anyone because they taught tithing - in precisely the way you have been doing on pastors who teach tithes; and then again show us where Christ tried to "justify" your own attitude inspite of such misplaced pseudo-spirituality.

ogajim:

Tithe issue again? With the same DS and SS combatants,
A % requirement is not a real Christian practice and I look at it the same way I look at any scam

Oga, sorry o - you just lost! If you're referring to what I've been posting, please show where I made tithing a matter of "% requirement". Please do so in simple terms, thank you.

@KunleOshob
please stop being under delusion. Whats all this continual claim about tithers wanting to scam you. Have I mentioned my bank or bank details, or has pilgrim.1 or anybody else done that? Abi you no know wetin be scam? All this talk about falling for scams is at best myopic and perhaps 'self-delusional'. You're never forced to tithe or give anything to or for God.

PG.1, I thought "tithe" meant 10% but if not, my bad!
Tithe as taught today in the charismatic churches is a SCAM
Jesus Christ I LOVE but most of these "men of God"
Jesus did castigate, admonish, condemn, etc the pharisees for their ways and warned (real Christians) never to emulate them
The real Christians are the "Church", "temple" of God and not some building whatever it's name
Matt.6:22-25, ignorance or the curtailment of enlightenment is a disease and ought to be called that.
1Tim 2:5, 6:10, Hebrews 10:12,9:15, Rev. 1:6, 5:10, I could go on but why?
Giving like prayer should be between the Christian and God QED
They could have pulled this off when the Bible wasn't available to everyone or when folks weren't literate enough to read but haba.
Jesus came as a server-leader with no difference in appearance between him and his Apostles hence Judas had to be bribed to finger him, good luck finding that kind of Leadership today.
Jesus Christ is the only Perfect one and there's non like HIM.

Image123:

@KunleOshob
please stop being under delusion. Whats all this continual claim about tithers wanting to scam you. Have I mentioned my bank or bank details, or has pilgrim.1 or anybody else done that? Abi you no know wetin be scam? All this talk about falling for scams is at best myopic and perhaps 'self-delusional'. You're never forced to tithe or give anything to or for God.

Pastors have been scamming their congregation for years telling them it is compulsory to pay tithes.They are the scammers we are after .I bet you this tithe scam would go down in history as the greatest scam ever.

chukwudi44:

Pastors have been scamming their congregation for years telling them it is compulsory to pay tithes.They are the scammers we are after.

What exactly do you mean by "pastors"? If you make such broad generalizations, does that show you a better person who's better or more righteous than many pastors whose lives you know nothing about? Second, if you're going to be honest, you'll find that not everyone who chooses to tithe argues a "compulsory" or "mandatory" tithe - this is evident from the references I gave you earlier, where they noted that tithes could be voluntary!

chukwudi44:

I bet you this tithe scam would go down in history as the greatest scam ever.

Nope, it's the anti-tither's confused arguments that will be long remembered as the greatest problem in this subject.

Image123:

@KunleOshob
please stop being under delusion. Whats all this continual claim about tithers wanting to scam you. Have I mentioned my bank or bank details, or has pilgrim.1 or anybody else done that? Abi you no know wetin be scam? All this talk about falling for scams is at best myopic and perhaps 'self-delusional'. You're never forced to tithe or give anything to or for God.

When anti-tithers no get wetin to talk again, the latest song they compose is that everybody dey do 'scam' - which is quite a limp excuse for their failing arguments.

pilgrim.1:

What exactly do you mean by "pastors"? If you make such broad generalizations, does that show you a better person who's better or more righteous than many pastors whose lives you know nothing about? Second, if you're going to be honest, you'll find that not everyone who chooses to tithe argues a "compulsory" or "mandatory" tithe - this is evident from the references I gave you earlier, where they noted that tithes could be voluntary!

Nope, it's the anti-tither's confused arguments that will be long remembered as the greatest problem in this subject.

pILGRIM PLEASE AM NOT AGAINST THOSE THAT TITHE(10%) WILLINGLY.I ONLY WANT TO FREE SOME INNOCENT CHRISTIANS FROM THE BONDAGE OF CRIMINALS WHO SAYS IT IS COMPULSORY TO TITHE.

chukwudi44:

pILGRIM PLEASE AM NOT AGAINST THOSE THAT TITHE(10%) WILLINGLY.I ONLY WANT TO FREE SOME INNOCENT CHRISTIANS FROM THE BONDAGE OF CRIMINALS WHO SAYS IT IS COMPULSORY TO TITHE.

I'm sorry, chukwudi44 - you don't have to shout! Trying to free others requires you to be clear and not just throw words carelessly around. If you're not against tithing per se, why have you NOT been encouraging others to actually tithe? Using language carelessly to slur people is what defeats the anti-tithers who claim that they are fighting "criminals". Your line of argument is not quite helpful afterall.

@ogajim,

How body? Thank you for your concerns. Let me address them.

ogajim:

PG.1, I thought "tithe" meant 10% but if not, my bad!

It basically includes that, but is not restricted to that amount.

ogajim:

Tithe as taught today in the charismatic churches is a SCAM

That's your opinion, and it's not my style to start pointing accusing fingers at anyone indiscriminately - whether pentecostal, Catholic, charismatic, etc. However, I know many churches that teach tithes in a very healthy way and have benefitted their congregations in more ways that you and I know.

ogajim:

Jesus Christ I LOVE but most of these "men of God"

Does that not remind us against the warning of self-righteousness? No, I'm not demeaning your opinions, as I used to argue like that in the past. As many mature Christians have added to my understanding, it would be unwise of me to adopt such attitudes.

ogajim:

Jesus did castigate, admonish, condemn, etc the pharisees for their ways and warned (real Christians) never to emulate them

Please re-read what I stated earlier:

    'The Christ we know from Scripture does not go about maliciously accusing pastors
     with your pseudo-spirituality. . '

I still do not find any where that Christ was "maliciously accusing" pastors - do you care to quote some for us? Second, I don't know if you ever found Him condemning or "maliciously accusing" anyone for tithing at all - do you? If you did, could you show us simply? Thank you in advance.

ogajim:

The real Christians are the "Church", "temple" of God and not some building whatever it's name

Did I, or have I, argued otherwise?

ogajim:

Matt.6:22-25, ignorance or the curtailment of enlightenment is a disease and ought to be called that.

Would you be willing to also call it precisely that when anti-tithers are shown their own ignorant statements which they cannot defend?

ogajim:

1Tim 2:5, 6:10, Hebrews 10:12,9:15, Rev. 1:6, 5:10, I could go on but why?

And your point is. . .?

ogajim:

Giving like prayer should be between the Christian and God QED

And how does that say that 'tithing' and the Christian is any less?

ogajim:

They could have pulled this off when the Bible wasn't available to everyone or when folks weren't literate enough to read but haba.

Oh thank goodness we have the Bible AND our God-given intelligence to challenge the hubris and ignorance of anti-tithers. Haba.

ogajim:

Jesus came as a server-leader with no difference in appearance between him and his Apostles hence Judas had to be bribed to finger him, good luck finding that kind of Leadership today.

And that is supposed to show how tithing is inimical to your spirituality? Was Judas asking you for any tithes? Why bring that into this subject? Desperate. . . or what, really?

ogajim:

Jesus Christ is the only Perfect one and there's non like HIM.

Lol, and that shows how you can then withdraw your hand from a true commitment to give, no?

Thanks all the same; but I had hoped for a more challenging substance to your comments.

I said giving should be between the giver and God, Jesus warned us against giving or praying like the pharisees so I don't need to make my commitment or the lack thereof known to anyone if I don't feel a need to. The standard percentage based giving is not for me ( though it can come in handy come April 15), I don't need write-offs when it comes to matters of faith.

ogajim:

I said giving should be between the giver and God, Jesus warned us against giving or praying like the pharisees so I don't need to make my commitment or the lack thereof known to anyone if I don't feel a need to. The standard percentage based giving is not for me ( though it can come in handy come April 15), I don't need write-offs when it comes to matters of faith.

Hahaha. . . Oga, how many people do you know have been saying they give tithes because they resemble pharisees? You just jump into thread, and comot as you enter without making impact - wetin happen??

It is hard not to look at those advocating 10% ( coincidentally same % folks used to have to pay to get naija govt. contracts, maybe more now) as pharisees since they obviously don't have anything to back up that requirement from the Bible other than some recycled junk that's nothing but the same old beaten path.
Our experiences in this area is varied I am sure and I can't even go into some of the stuff I've heard in "churches" the last couple of months, those who aren't "submissive" are said to be "stealing from God" or "blocking God's blessing for them", " not sowing properly", etc.
Just as I don't have to be a democratic to prove I am black, I don't need to submit to an old law to prove I am a good Christian.
I don't need any "spiritual father" other than Jesus Christ, spiritual growth is something one should continue to seek but we need to be weary of wolves in sheep's clothing, no one is going to make me feel guilty about what i do or don't do without providing superior arguement to butress their point, when I didn't know any better, I went along with it but now I do.
Matthew 23:8-12 , is a good reference for those with "temporal fathers, daddy" or whatever. It is the duty of anyone that knows better not to keep it to themselves so we don't fall short in God's eyes, so educate those in "bondage" of old "curses" we must.

@ogajim,

ogajim:

It is hard not to look at those advocating 10% ( coincidentally same % folks used to have to pay to get naija govt. contracts, maybe more now) as pharisees since they obviously don't have anything to back up that requirement from the Bible other than some recycled junk that's nothing but the same old beaten path.

I hardly find intelligence in your drivel up there, I'm afraid. First, even though I favour tithing, have I made any type of giving a "requirement"? Or by "force"? Or even by "mandate"? The recycled junk of often making this subject a matter of such onomatomania is reason why you folks will never grow beyond your self-righteousness. Not to mention indeed that so many anti-tithers who are averse to "any percentage" are evidently making their own giving a "requirement" - did you know that at all? Yet, that would not make me slur you the way you guys readily castigate tithers with all sorts of vituperations.

ogajim:

Our experiences in this area is varied I am sure and I can't even go into some of the stuff I've heard in "churches" the last couple of months, those who aren't "submissive" are said to be "stealing from God" or "blocking God's blessing for them", " not sowing properly", etc.

True, our experiences on this subject are varied - which is the more reason why anti-tithers cannot condemn everyone who is inclined to tithing. I could as well state the same observation about anti-tithing churches the last couple of months which constantly make the false assertion that those who are tithing are going to hell or cutting themselves off from the grace of Christ - all for what? For simply giving a certain percentage of their income as tithes?

ogajim:

Just as I don't have to be a democratic to prove I am black, I don't need to submit to an old law to prove I am a good Christian.

Which again is another retired and infantile argument. A 'good Christian' - because you choose not to tithe, and tithers by default are not 'good Christians', innit? How many times have I remarked that tithers today in Church are not tithing for the sake of becoming Jews? If Paul was evidently quoting from the "old Law" for Christian giving, was he trying to make Christians become 'black' or become Jews? Hehe. . . it's amazing the sort of far-fetched arguments you anti-tithing folks can dream up for your ideas.

ogajim:

I don't need any "spiritual father" other than Jesus Christ, spiritual growth is something one should continue to seek but we need to be weary of wolves in sheep's clothing, no one is going to make me feel guilty about what i do or don't do without providing superior arguement to butress their point, when I didn't know any better, I went along with it but now I do.

Considering your several arguments, I very well doubt that you know any better as yet. True, we all need to be aware of 'wolves in sheep's clothing', but does that in itself constitute reason enough to then stop tithing or to use the subject of tithe to demonize every pastor who teaches it in their congregations? Even during the days of the Mosaic Law, were there not people who abused the offerings of God's people? And did such abuses constitute reason enough for God's people to entirely stop giving their tithes and offerings? I don't mean this in any sly way, but your argument here typically reminds me of folks who make queer larger-than-life claims in order to excuse good sense (Proverbs 22:13 and 26:13-16).

ogajim:

Matthew 23:8-12 , is a good reference for those with "temporal fathers, daddy" or whatever. It is the duty of anyone that knows better not to keep it to themselves so we don't fall short in God's eyes, so educate those in "bondage" of old "curses" we must.

I don't know how many pastors around the world have made themselves guilty of your complaint in Matthew 23:8-12 - just by preaching tithes. What's the connection, really? Does that Scripture put you or anyone in 'bondage' or a 'curse'? If we're going to honestly educate ourselves and our brethren, we'd do a better job at it by sharing intelligently from God's Word - not by using false assertions to castigate everyone who preaches tithes, and then justifying that attitude in a pseudo-spiritual and self-righteous conceit.

pilgrim.1:


True, our experiences on this subject are varied - which is the more reason why anti-tithers cannot condemn everyone who is inclined to tithing. I could as well state the same observation about anti-tithing churches the last couple of months which constantly make the false assertion that those who are tithing are going to hell or cutting themselves off from the grace of Christ - all for what? For simply giving a certain percentage of their income as tithes?

It has been your constant claim that your experience of the preaching of tithes is different from what most of the 'anti-tithers' are talking about. While I find it difficult to imagine that you haven't really encountered the preaching of tithes as a means of extortion (endemic enough to warrant a crusade against) I guess it is not impossible.

Perhaps if I acquainted you with a few of these teachings you could give me your opinion as to whether that chuch is preaching the gospel or merely practicing extortion.

Please check this out:

Offering: Any time you are coming to the house of God you must have it at the back of your mind not to come empty handed Duet 16:15. The offering you give is the seed sown which will bring harvest at the unexpected time. Some people when they are given an offering envelop they just put it on the chair such one can never harvest anything from God, so be a good giver.


Tithe: You need to sow your tithe.

Many thought that when they give their tithe it is the pastor that will spend it therefore they determine not to give it. Your responsibility stops where you obey God by paying the tithe, leave the rest to God to determine and judge. Everybody that steals God’s money god knows how to deal with him or her.


Kingdom Investment: The purpose of which people buy share and stocks is to have high returns on investment but kingdom investment has the highest return which no company or corporation can pay. Apart from the high yield returns which is always in multiples, you are also guaranteed a mansion in heaven

Our pastor are God’s representatives who feed us spiritually we too need to feed them physically if we want to prosper.

Needy: You can also sow into the lives of the needy e.g. widow fatherless or motherless children. The Bible says Ps 4:1 “Blessed is that considereth the poor. The Lord will deliver him in the time of trouble”. The blessing that God has blessed us with is not meant to be enjoyed by us alone but for others to be blessed through it. Giving to the needy is a strong key to open door of blessing from God. All those who gave in the Bible did not regret of their giving. May be you nave all what it takes to prosper but it has not really manifested why not check your giving habit. Do you give offering? Do you pay your tithe? Do you support the work of God? Do you bless your pastor and the needy? Why not start now it is never too late and God will give you the appropriate keys to financial prosperity.

This is taken from here: http://www.rccgvictoryarea.org/keys.htm

The RcCG is the biggest church in nigeria and I believe they say it is the fastest growing church in the world. I don't think it is far fetched to claim that their practices are representative of how christianity is practiced in nigeria.

My question to you, Pilgrim1, is: Would you say that these teachings of RCCG are rooted in Christian doctrine or are they merely manipulating doctrine to extort funds from the gullible?

I'd like your opinion on this statement too:

Pastor Adeboye, sharing the revelation during the meeting, which he hosted, stated that it was revealed to him that the global economic meltdown would subsist for seven years.
“Despite the gloomy economic state worldwide, those who are righteous, faithful in giving their tithes and offering will prosper,” he said.

@Pastor AIO,

Thank you for your concerns. As I've repeatedly stated, my arguments are not borne out of narrow experiences where one uses only one case to plaster a conclusion across board. In which case, my opinions would not be inclined to make the RCCG the standard case for ALL tithe preachers around the world. Please bear in mind that I've also repeatedly demonstrated that people err on both sides of the debate; and as such, would it be quite "in order" to blast ALL anti-tithers with the same slurs as they hastily do to their tithing brethren? Have anti-tithers not said worse things than tithers several times, most of which I've identified already in several threads?

This was why I said earlier:

'our experiences on this subject are varied - which is the more reason
why anti-tithers cannot condemn everyone who is inclined to tithing'

I wonder if by quoting that line earlier you were of the opinion that EVERYONE who is inclined to tithing must by default be condemned by anti-tithers? I hope not; but if otherwise, why so?

That said, let's address your concerns about the RCCG's case:

Pastor AIO:

It has been your constant claim that your experience of the preaching of tithes is different from what most of the 'anti-tithers' are talking about.

That's true, and my claim stands as such. I've also made pointers to why that is so.

Pastor AIO:

While I find it difficult to imagine that you haven't really encountered the preaching of tithes as a means of extortion (endemic enough to warrant a crusade against) I guess it is not impossible.

Lol, have I asserted such a thing anywhere? Rather, is it not true that I've repeatedly stated that extortion is preached through diverse means and not just through the tithes? If that is correct, I wonder why anti-tithers are not condemning those other means by declaring them "unbiblical, fraud, scam, criminal, cut-off-from-grace, going to HELL", etc, etc, etc. I'm sure that if you've closely followed the discussion about tithes on this forum, you'd find that even anti-tithers have recognized indeed that other means are used to the same effect of extortion - but they are just too driven by their narrow sentiments against tithes that they MUST see tithes as the ONLY means of such a sad occurence.

My point has consistently been simple enough: although people extort money from believers through any of the several means about Biblical giving, that is not reason enough to condemn the subject of tithes out of hand. I've also posted an example to the point that I'm very well aware of such abuses, and in other places I've shown that they should not be ignored. But should such occurences be reason enough to condemn ALL and ANY pastors who preach tithes anywhere in the world? Is that reason enough to condemn 'tithing' in itself? Is that reason enough to keep harping against 'tithes' and 'tithers' and going so far as to preach that tithers are "going to HELL"? If anti-tithers actually don't have any problems with tithes, then WHY have they not been encouraging Christians to actually tithe? Why do such anti-tithers have problems with "giving in church"? Why do they often object and argue endlessly against Christians giving in churches? No; instead, the slurs and condemnation across board occupies them so much that when real problems are being discussed, anti-tithers abandon their own arguments and then resort to ad hominems to hide their inconsistencies.

Pastor AIO:

Perhaps if I acquainted you with a few of these teachings you could give me your opinion as to whether that chuch is preaching the gospel or merely practicing extortion.

You're welcome to offer any particular case. May I remind you yet again that one particular case is not sufficient reason to plaster condemnation across board over ALL and ANY pastor who preaches tithes. To insist that it should be the case, is to offer a queer prejudice that is quite self-defeating. In just the same case, I could quote you an anti-tither who condemns all tithers to HELL and use that as "standard" anti-tithing arguemnts - would that be fair on just that one case?

I would not even go so far as to argue whether the RCCG is "preaching the gospel", for evidently they are doing so. . . unless you have a way to show that the Gospel is never preached in that church, and the many who have come to believe in Christ there are heading straight to HELL. I trust that is not what you meant; and then I wonder why you would have to question whether or not they are "preaching the Gospel".

However, I'll examine your quote and then offer my opinions:

Pastor AIO:

Please check this out:

Offering: Any time you are coming to the house of God you must have it at the back of your mind not to come empty handed Deut 16:15. The offering you give is the seed sown which will bring harvest at the unexpected time. Some people when they are given an offering envelop they just put it on the chair such one can never harvest anything from God, so be a good giver.


Tithe: You need to sow your tithe.

I think they meant verse 16, not verse 15. Yet, if we going on to verse 17, we find again that the same principle in the OT is what is preached in the NT:

             Deut. 16:17 -  'Every man shall give as he is able,
             according to the blessing of the LORD thy God which he hath given thee'

             2 Cor. 8:12  -  'For if there be first a willing mind,
             it is accepted according to that a man hath,
             and not according to that he hath not.'

Now, my opinion: offering, tithe and 'sowing'.  I don't think the few lines quoted above could be used to draw any final conclusions to condemn the RCCG. For one, those few lines are not expatiated enough on those terms to draw a condemnation of 'extortion'; and we know that the apostles in the NT drew from the OT to exhort NT giving. The second highlighted part of the quote is a cogent statement, I believe, that is unnecessary to argue against. If one does not 'sow' (in context of giving), how does he/she reap? The NT argues that a man only reaps what he has sown; and the measure in which someone sows is the measure in which they shall reap, NO? The end of that quote exhorts to "be a good giver", and that could also be a healthy reminder that tessellates with 2 Cor. 9:7.

What about sowing one's tithe? That may also well be cogent - in just the same way that 'sowing' is a term that is used in connection to our giving in the NT (2 Cor. 9:6, 9-10).

Many thought that when they give their tithe it is the pastor that will spend it therefore they determine not to give it. Your responsibility stops where you obey God by paying the tithe, leave the rest to God to determine and judge. Everybody that steals God’s money god knows how to deal with him or her.

I would say 'apt'. So far, so good.

Kingdom Investment: The purpose of which people buy share and stocks is to have high returns on investment but kingdom investment has the highest return which no company or corporation can pay. Apart from the high yield returns which is always in multiples, you are also guaranteed a mansion in heaven

This is a no-no!! Absolutely ZERO! Kingdom investment yields high returns, but it does not guarantee ANYBODY any mansion anywhere in heaven.

I knew about this long before now; and nothing changes from my position. In another thread by huxley2, I made clear that "Salvation is not based on any type of giving - call it whatever one may: tithes, contributions, donations, alms, offerings, firstfruit, seed-sowing, etc." When he consequently invited me to explicate further, I gave an outline for my persausion that such is not the case.

What then is the point? Simple enough: if people are misunderstanding the subject of tithing and tying it to unfounded assertions, we can correct misunderstandings by sharing our persuasions in a godly manner; not by outrightly condemning 'tithes' or 'tithers' or ALL 'pastors' who preach tithes anywhere in the world. In experience I know that many, many other tithe-preachers do not tie tithing or any other type of giving to such salvific "guarantees"; but those who do so is not reason enough to plaster guilt across board and condemn everyone else who preaches tithes. It would be as bad a mistake for tithers to condemn every anti-tither on the unfounded assertions of a few or many.

Our pastor are God’s representatives who feed us spiritually we too need to feed them physically if we want to prosper.

I don't have a quarrel about this - would that not be saying the same thing as in 1 Corinthians 9:11? Is this verse also preaching 'extortion'? The thing is that pilgrim.1 is not given to arguments just because somneone said something that many people don't like. My style is to first check what they are saying, drop any biases and then see if what others are saying are in line with God's Word. This principle, I believe, is many times given in Scripture -

         'Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?'
          ~~ John 7:51

          'He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him'
          ~~ Prov. 18:13

These and several other verses offer me a balance in carefully examining what people are saying so that I don't risk condemning people for my own bias.

Needy: You can also sow into the lives of the needy e.g. widow fatherless or motherless children. The Bible says Ps 4:1 “Blessed is that considereth the poor. The Lord will deliver him in the time of trouble”. The blessing that God has blessed us with is not meant to be enjoyed by us alone but for others to be blessed through it. Giving to the needy is a strong key to open door of blessing from God. All those who gave in the Bible did not regret of their giving. May be you nave all what it takes to prosper but it has not really manifested why not check your giving habit. Do you give offering? Do you pay your tithe? Do you support the work of God? Do you bless your pastor and the needy? Why not start now it is never too late and God will give you the appropriate keys to financial prosperity.

Not much of a problem to me.

Pastor AIO:

The RcCG is the biggest church in nigeria and I believe they say it is the fastest growing church in the world. I don't think it is far fetched to claim that their practices are representative of how christianity is practiced in nigeria.

I don't know, Pastor AIO. Honestly, I simply don't know if that statistics is unarguable. The RCCG often measures their growth by 'parishes', and it's not easy to make an estimate in their membership. However, we should not forget that the RCCG is not "representative" of how Christianity is practised in Nigeria, for at least a few reasons:

    * In terms of size, there are other churches that play very significant roles in
    the demography of the religious landsacpe in Nigeria. For instance, I know for
    a fact that there are over 23 million people who attend the Anglican Church
    in Nigeria alone; however, going by official confirmation, it is said that it has
    a membership (by confirmed baptized adherents) of over 18 million -
    in Nigeria alone.  The same could be said for the Catholic Church in Nigeria
    which has official confirmation of over 17 million baptized members.


    * second, the other churches which teach tithes in their congregations
     do not make it a matter of madatory or forceful demand - even within
      the same country - NIGERIA. Let me quote you just a few sources for
     you to check out for yourself:

[list]

Worship in the Catholic church for example, consisted of straight forward mass on Sunday, early morning mass on a daily basis where there is a Reverend Father available in the parish to conduct these masses. . . . The reverend fathers in these churches believe in spreading the churches far into the nooks and crannies of Nigeria rather than concentrating and strictly targeting city-dwellers with a lot of money to offer. They encourage tithe-payments but they do not strictly insist on knowing the salaries of their members with a view to ensuring that the correct percentage is paid monthly by their followers. Tithe payment is largely left to the conscience of the members of the congregation.
Source: http://www.nigerdeltacongress.com/particles/prosperity_churches.htm

[/list]

[list]

The Rt. Reverend C.E. Ideh is the Bishop of the Anglican Church Communion, Warri Diocese. In this encounter with Sunday Vanguard, he speaks on challenges of ministering the gospel in the volatile Niger-Delta region,. . .  >snip<

Q: There is this controversy over tithe. Where do you stand on it?

Some people feel that payment of tithe is an old law and you can give the way you want in the church and not that you will be forced to be paying a particular percentage. What is your view on tithing? They are entitled to their own opinion. Actually, as far as the Anglican Church is concerned, so many years ago, we knew nothing about tithing. We were only used to what we called church dues, a fixed amount, depending on the congregation, which you pay annually. But, with time, we began to see that tithing is scriptural. When Jesus, talking about tithe, said one should not leave what is more important to do, He was not ruling out tithe, He was just prioritising, saying in order of priority, you should do this first, not that you should not pay your tithe. In this matter, I will say seeing is believing. I, as an individual, so many years back, in the eighties, I was introduced to tithing when I was in the higher institution, and, since then, specifically 1983, about 26 years now, I have been doing that and, by experience, if you tithe, you never lack. God has proven it. Not because I am a bishop now. Right from when I was a student. In fact, a student told me then," look, is it that you practise telepathy with your father? He asked because after I started tithing, my father would always come at the point I had nothing to see me, to give me either garri or money. And I strongly believe it is because of the tithing. The Lord said, "prove me if I will not open the windows of heaven and shower you with blessings that room will not be able to keep it." So when you tithe and faithfully you keep it, I tell you, you will never beg, borrow or steal. There will always be meal on your table. Nobody will convince me against tithing when I have tasted it and know it is good.

Source: http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=9986

[/list]

Another comment from AllExperts.com' about the position of Anglican Communion on tithe (this is not in Nigeria) -
[list]

Are Anglicans required to tithe, i.e. giving back 10% of income to the Church? What is the Anglican Church's teaching on tithing?

Very few denominations "require" tithing.
. . .
. . .
Many biblically-minded ministers would now preach tithing, but the general "expected" level of giving is five per cent of disposable income (i.e. after tax and housing costs).

[/list]

Now, from all these, you can understand why I consistently challenge the anti-tithing arguments to make a "standard" case for every Church that preaches tithes. It is evident that even within Nigeria and among many large churches, the subject of tithing is NOT made a matter of "required" or "mandatory" - and most anti-tithers who insist that it is so, have been playing unhealthy games of passing false assertions in order to plaster condemnation across board on ALL pastors and churches that dare to even mention tithes. When we see that the examples above state that -

      ● 'Tithe payment is largely left to the conscience of the members'

      ● 'Very few denominations "require" tithing'. . . but that - -

      ●  'general "expected" level of giving is five per cent of disposable income'

. . . do the above sound like anything the anti-tithers have always argued endlessly on Nairaland?
   

Pastor AIO:

My question to you, Pilgrim1, is: Would you say that these teachings of RCCG are rooted in Christian doctrine or are they merely manipulating doctrine to extort funds from the gullible?

I believe my answers above could suffice.

Pastor AIO:

I'd like your opinion on this statement too:

Pastor Adeboye, sharing the revelation during the meeting, which he hosted, stated that it was revealed to him that the global economic meltdown would subsist for seven years.
“Despite the gloomy economic state worldwide, those who are righteous, faithful in giving their tithes and offering will prosper,” he said.

As long as he has not said that "ONLY" those who tithe would prosper, I don't see why I should unnecessarily pick issues with him. Indeed, other ministers outside Nigeria say just about the same thing, and I personally know man tithers who have found that statement proven true in their lives.

I know that many people have said angry things against Pastor Adeboye; and just this morning while composing this reply, there's this 'kind' gentleman who constantly distracted me offline with unprintable names just because he has issues with this RCCG website. To him, if I did not join his 'campaign' to condemn Adeboye, I would "sit in the hottest seat in HELL" (his exact words). No, I would not join him is his ministry of condemnation; and I promptly logged out to come and finish this reply.

My point has been that even where people say unsubstantiated things on BOTH sides of the debate, that is not reason enough to condemn tithes and tithers and pastors and churches that preach tithes - withing and outside Nigeria. As I've shown above, there are many large Churches in Nigeria that preach tithe but do not make it a matter of what is "REQUIRED", or preach that someone is 'going to HELL' for tithing. Thirdly, I could supply you with MANY quotes within and outside Nigeria where tithing by many Churches is not a fixed/rigid "10% only or else" - the example above says they expect just "five percent" - yet they did not INSIST on it by "force".

There's more to say; but I hope this would help you see why I constantly challenge the irresponsibly repeated false assertions that anti-tithers often banter on this Forum which cannot stand up when challenged.

Shalom.