@Joagbaje,  Abel did not give firstfruits.  Firstfruits and firstlings are not the same.

Zikkyy said, “the question i would ask is: since the modern day tithing is a modified version of biblical tithing activities, who defines what tithing is or should be? Pastor or the man rendering his tenth?”

We can spend the next several days or weeks discussing what constitutes a voluntary tithe.  Does it have to be money?  Can it be this or that?  Must it be given in/to church?  The problem is, what are pastors teaching?

First, I have attended many churches in California, and every single one I have attended has used Malachi and said you are robbing God if you don't tithe ON YOUR GROSS INCOME, and BRING IT TO THE CHURCH.  Later, AFTER having meetings with many pastors, two of them started teaching voluntary tithing, but STILL referred to it as a tenth of GROSS INCOME, and that it was to be taken to the church.

I'd like to know how many pastors who teach voluntary tithing say that the tithe can be on anything you want, and you can give it to whomever you want.

Since wordtalk has either said or inferred that he knows of many pastors who teach voluntary tithing, maybe (but I doubt it) wordtalk will tell us how many of those pastors say that voluntary tithing IS a tenth of your INCOME, and should or must be taken to the church.  And how many say you can voluntarily tithe by giving a tenth of whatever you want, to wherever you want.  Can we get an HONEST answer to these questions from wordtalk?  Just base this on YOUR experience - how do pastors who teach voluntary tithing define tithing?

Edit: I have listened to many pastors on YouTube who do in fact teach voluntary tithing, but every single one of them has defined tithing to be a tenth of your gross income.

Joagbaje:

That's a good point.


You should know that tithing didn't originate with the Jews. It's based on principles of faith . Just like offerings or prayers . Is offerings done away. Why 10% only God knows. Besides it's so minute when compared to other givings we do. Tithing seem to be the least of our givings.

At least the ten . I do give above ten. Let God owe me. And I know many others who do the same. Some give 20 or 30 %

It's true that even before the Jews, others tithed. But is that really relevant to us, i.e., can we really say it was instituted by God? Since these people did not know God - God revealed Himself to Abraham and the Jewsih people - aren't their practices simple guides at best that should not be taken with the level of seriousness we see with the tithe?

Especially in light of recent exchanges with debosky, I'd like to state something again plainly on record because there have been several false insinuations.

Those of us who are described as "antitithers" have stated repeatedly that we have nothing against a person who chooses to "tithe" (in any form) voluntarily --- especially if the person knows that tithing is not an obligation for a Christian!

Here is part of a post of mine from earlier this year https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-599711.0.html#msg7686037

There are people who teach/preach "tithing" in honest error usually simply preaching it as obligation --- but not as a necessary guarantee of prosperity. This is true of some older type/traditional churches in Nigeria (I was in one such yesterday).

There are frauds who know that tithing is not a Christian obligation or who don't even care but simply use the preaching of "tithing" as a means of fleecing the flock so as for themselves to get rich. Such people are beneath contempt.

Believe me, if I arrive in Nigeria today my local church that I will attend is one that teaches tithing ----- yet, I will still happily join them in worship.  

First of all, how do you define tithing? How do you define voluntary tithing? What does it mean to you? Is your own definition the same as the "man-made" definitions you like to accuse others about on this subject?

You see, garyarnold - this discussion is not about you or me. Nothing I do affects your life as a Christian; but I do find it diabolical for Christians to be hunting other believers around the globe in hope of telling them what to do or not do! I have stated my views as simply as can be. Since there's no hint of tithing for you and your lot, why is my tithing a huge problem for you at all?

garyarnold:

Since wordtalk has either said or inferred that he knows of many pastors who teach voluntary tithing, maybe (but I doubt it) wordtalk will tell us how many of those pastors say that voluntary tithing IS a tenth of your INCOME, and should or must be taken to the church.  And how many say you can voluntarily tithe by giving a tenth of whatever you want, to wherever you want.  Can we get an HONEST answer to these questions from wordtalk?  Just base this on YOUR experience - how do pastors who teach voluntary tithing define tithing?

I have given the example that people can read for themselves - Pastor Tunde Bakare:

Tithes are to be used to take care of widows, the helpless, and services in the house of God. . .

But it’s never compulsory. . .

Do I pay tithe? Definitely. But I don’t make it a law for everybody.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-739830.64.html#msg8972672

For some that I know personally, these are the three things that often feature in their voluntary tithes. I don't bother myself trying to superintend over the details of how their tithes should be defined as 'voluntary'. I don't try to dictate strictures for them so that they can bend to some predefined ideology in order to satisfy me or you! I find it indeed callous to be meddling too deep into how people have chosen to voluntarily give or tithe.

Besides Pastor Tunde Bakare and those that I have spoken to and learned from, there are other churches outside Nigeria that encourage their churches to tithe without demanding such tithes to be compulsory. Here is another example -

Clarifications on Tithe and Offerings
On 15 April 2009, Matthew Kang, the Honorary Secretary of the New Creation Church, posted a reply to The Straits Times on the church's website stating that the New Creation Church was not a public charity and did not solicit public donations. He asserted that "there is absolutely no compulsion to give whether in tithes or offerings, and any giving is done out of a willing heart", and that "every giver is appreciated and it is taken in good faith that he believes in the elected leadership and will trust them to make good decisions for the particular church he has chosen to attend, whether as a member or a visitor."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Creation_Church#Clarifications_on_Tithe_and_Offerings

There are many other examples and testimonies of Christians and Churches that tithe - and they have expressed that their tithing is voluntary, not obligatory or by compulsion. If that is not sufficient to bear the point out, I don't see how you ever would be satisfied with all the evidence that people can read for themselves. This is why I distance myself from any suggestion by anybody that I were closer to "anti-tithers" - I AM NOT and DO NOT SHARE in their attitude! Let people be free to choose as they want to express their giving - whether in the form of tithes or freewill or alms or donations.

garyarnold:

Zikkyy said, “the question i would ask is: since the modern day tithing is a modified version of biblical tithing activities, who defines what tithing is or should be? Pastor or the man rendering his tenth?”

Good question - the bible says the individual should decide in his heart how he should give.

However, preachers are not restricted from offering guidance on how people should give, but this should be guidance and no more.

I'd like to know how many pastors who teach voluntary tithing say that the tithe can be on anything you want, and you can give it to whomever you want.

I don't know if you can get this information or how it would progress this conversation.

Since wordtalk has either said or inferred that he knows of many pastors who teach voluntary tithing, maybe (but I doubt it) wordtalk will tell us how many of those pastors say that voluntary tithing IS a tenth of your INCOME, and should or must be taken to the church.  And how many say you can voluntarily tithe by giving a tenth of whatever you want, to wherever you want.  Can we get an HONEST answer to these questions from wordtalk?  Just base this on YOUR experience - how do pastors who teach voluntary tithing define tithing?

Again I don't see the benefit of this inquest. Wordtalk is not (I believe) holding brief for all voluntary tithing advocates out there, so why should he/she be asked to defend this position on behalf of all who preach it? There is no answer he/she can provide that will be fully satisfactory.

In any case, my own personal experience involves a church teaching that not everyone will agree on tithing - some agree with giving tithes, others do not, but this is not a fundamental issue in the church and emphasis is not placed on how you give, but for individuals to consider the needs of the ministry and give accordingly to support it. Both tithers and non-tithers get along just fine.

debosky:

Again I don't see the benefit of this inquest. Wordtalk is not (I believe) holding brief for all voluntary tithing advocates out there, so why should he/she be asked to defend this position on behalf of all who preach it? There is no answer he/she can provide that will be fully satisfactory.

Thank you for reiterating my point exactly! God bless you much!

debosky:

Good question - the bible says the individual should decide in his heart how he should give.

However, preachers are not restricted from offering guidance on how people should give, but this should be guidance and no more.

Thank you my brother if only i can get Jo to comply

Edit: debosky, i hope the guidance you are recommending does not involve coercion/scriptural manipulation (scare tactics) to confuse/scare the congregation?

I think if we continue like this its possible this might not end but l think at this point the matter is simple; Tithing is Scriptural and Bible based if you don't believe it its your choice and an option that you have chosen no one should be forced to accept it and if you believe it good LET THE CHURCH MOVE ON

Here is what I have concluded from this blog:

If I give a tenth of my income to the church on a regular basis, I AM A TITHER.

If I give a one-time tenth of one paycheck during my lifetime, I AM A TITHER.

If I give a tenth of my clothes to the Salvation Army, I AM A TITHER.

If I give a tenth of what I have in my pocket, I AM A TITHER.

If I give a tenth of my time to help someone, I AM A TITHER.

etc. etc. etc.

Therefore, when someone says they are a tither, we really have no clue as to what they believe a tithe is.

garyarnold:

Therefore, when someone says they are a tither, we really have no clue as to what they believe a tithe is.

Tithing is a tenth (10%), it is an investment (for those hoping to hit it big time), it is a principle (don't request for an explanation), it's a spiritual deed in relationship with God (copyright - Joagbaje), an act inspired by the biblical practice, it is a fraud (if you consider the motive for preaching of tithe). The modern day tithe is as defined by man, so it can be anything you want it to be i guess that's why a good number of tithe payers don't really understand what this tithe thing is all about .

TITHE - the one topic guaranteed to cause bared fangs in Christianity

@wordtalk:

I know you are not an advocate for anti-tithing! I have said that EVEN me am not whist being thought so because I argue against the COMPULSORY "legalistic" thrust it carries today!

What I meant with my statement was that your clarification about the "voluntary" nature it ought have takes the wind out of the sail of those who lay heavy loads upon God's people and who sought to use your initial statements as a prop for their avarice

Ah nuke, I had reserved this last point until now.

Apart from my later deliberate dig at Joagbaje and his boss, please do a quick go through the posts and ascertain (you don't even have to reveal publicly) who has been throwing insults all over the place ----- even from the very first page of the thread.

I have gone through most of wordtalk's website and do not find where he ever says that voluntary tithing can be on anything other than one's income. I also have not found in all his articles where he says tithing can be giving anywhere except the church.

Why is that?

It certainly appears that either wordtalk doesn't want to expose to others that tithing can be a tenth of anything they desire, and can be given to whomever this wish. It certainly appears that worktalk has an agenda, and that agenda is NOT telling the whole truth but rather to tell only that which fits his own tithing preference.

If wordtalk is sincere and really wants the tell the truth, he will revise his website and tell the whole truth - that tithing does not have to be a tenth of one's income, and that the tithe does not have to be given in church. Otherwise, wordtalk is guilty of manipulation by withholding a big part of the issue.

any discussions on what to do about the high rate of immorality, fetish behaviour and marriage break ups among christians today?

garyarnold:

Here is what I have concluded from this blog:

If I give a tenth of my income to the church on a regular basis, I AM A TITHER.

If I give a one-time tenth of one paycheck during my lifetime, I AM A TITHER.

If I give a tenth of my clothes to the Salvation Army, I AM A TITHER.

If I give a tenth of what I have in my pocket, I AM A TITHER.

If I give a tenth of my time to help someone, I AM A TITHER.

etc. etc. etc.

Therefore, when someone says they are a tither, we really have no clue as to what they believe a tithe is.

If you replace all the tenths with 'part' and TITHER with 'giver', I'm sure you won't have any objection with that, or would you?

Which is the way I think it should be - frankly I think many of us are too concerned with defining what others do/should do when it is of little benefit to do so.

All we should aspire to do is lay down the truth from the bible and let people decide what way they choose to exercise their giving.

There are weightier matters (no pun intended ) that deserve more time and scrutiny IMO and those should receive greater focus.

debosky:

Which is the way I think it should be - frankly I think many of us are too concerned with defining what others do/should do when it is of little benefit to do so.

You took it right out of my mouth!

garyarnold:

I have gone through most of wordtalk's website and do not find where he ever says that voluntary tithing can be on anything other than one's income.  I also have not found in all his articles where he says tithing can be giving anywhere except the church.

Why is that?

Without holding brief for Wordtalk (again ) I think I can answer this based on the responses I have seen. WT clearly expressed his preference by saying he/she believes tithes should be given to the Church - I don't think the purpose of the site is to share all the various shades that tithing can take on, but to express one person's opinion.

However, if the site claims that this is the ONLY way of tithing permitted, then feel free to take him up on that.

It certainly appears that either wordtalk doesn't want to expose to others that tithing can be a tenth of anything they desire, and can be given to whomever this wish.  It certainly appears that worktalk has an agenda, and that agenda is NOT telling the whole truth but rather to tell only that which fits his own tithing preference.

My brother there is nothing wrong in expressing your preference, as long as it is shown as a preference. This 'whole truth' issue is a red-herring in this case - it is up to the giver to decide where he can give it to, not for WT to stipulate all the various ways you can give it in order to express his own preference.

Besides, why do others need WT to 'expose' this to them? When did WT become the fountain of knowledge or the definitive word when it comes to tithing?

If wordtalk is sincere and really wants the tell the truth, he will revise his website and tell the whole truth - that tithing does not have to be a tenth of one's income, and that the tithe does not have to be given in church.  Otherwise, wordtalk is guilty of manipulation by withholding a big part of the issue.

Now I completely disagree with this - he doesn't have to revise anything as he is not putting his ideas out there as the definitive view of how tithing MUST be carried out. He has expressed his preference, and that should suffice.

I cannot imagine having to display every possible variant of a doctrine of faith just to pass across my own preference. This is an unrealistic demand which neither you nor anyone else has a right to make on another believer. You have now set yourself in place as the judge of sincerity and insincerity and what content a person's website should contain.

I consider such a view to be supremely arrogant.

@garyarnold,

I have said again and again that this thread or the topic thereof are not about persons or personalities or even about you or me. Nothing a tither does will ever satisfy you - and all your hunting around the globe to bend people to your anti-tithing arguments will not mature your spiritual life! It is not even as if you know what you are arguing - nevermind that you are not inclined to answer questions before advertizing your accounting career without budgeting! If your whole life as a Christian is set upon what I have said for myself, then let me know how I can help progress your spirituality. Other than that, please stay on focus and refrain from having hypertensions on what you find on my website.

garyarnold:

I have gone through most of wordtalk's website and do not find where he ever says that voluntary tithing can be on anything other than one's income. I also have not found in all his articles where he says tithing can be giving anywhere except the church.

Why is that?

That is simply because I believe that tithes should be given in Church where they could be used for the very same ends and purposes that you and your lot desire to see. The problem here is that even if I were to write everything in A-B-C fashion in your dialect, you still will never be satisfied - as long as I am not joining your drama to start hunting other Christians to prevent them from freely expressing their giving through tithes. My position is not a law for any believer - and I have said over and over again that I do not have a quarrel with anyone who wants to do as they wish!

It certainly appears that either wordtalk doesn't want to expose to others that tithing can be a tenth of anything they desire, and can be given to whomever this wish.

I certainly will not be pressured to play your games, sorry. I leave others to do as they want: I do not harangue them to bend to certain anti-tithing dogmas which even anti-tithers themselves do not obey! telling others what to do and not do while you yourself are not doing what you recommend is grand hypocrisy - that is why I will not bend or yield to your drama. Sorry.

It certainly appears that worktalk has an agenda, and that agenda is NOT telling the whole truth but rather to tell only that which fits his own tithing preference.

I have said things as simply as they are - without any anti-tithing agenda. I do not find your own version of complaints any nearer to "truth"; and if what I say is not sounding like what you want to hear, tough luck - I can't stand for your erratic assertions as "truth".

If wordtalk is sincere and really wants the tell the truth, he will revise his website and tell the whole truth - that tithing does not have to be a tenth of one's income, and that the tithe does not have to be given in church. Otherwise, wordtalk is guilty of manipulation by withholding a big part of the issue.

Lol, I am not guilty of your own manipulation. Because you do not read what you want to see on my website, you go about laying accusations just so you can sleep well at night. What I have said can be easily understood by those who do not have an anti-tithing agenda.

debosky:

Without holding brief for Wordtalk (again ) I think I can answer this based on the responses I have seen. WT clearly expressed his preference by saying he/she believes tithes should be given to the Church - I don't think the purpose of the site is to share all the various shades that tithing can take on, but to express one person's opinion.

[size=14pt]However, if the site claims that this is the ONLY way of tithing permitted, then feel free to take him up on that.[/size]

Very much appreciated, thanks a gazillion! I just marvel at his restlessness in reading his own problems into my comments or website!

Whatever the case about what is on the website and whether the owner of the site should amend it (which I have no clue about), I think it is very very pertinent to point out, certainly in the context of this thread at least, when a case/argument/presentation for "voluntary" tithing does not really mean "voluntary" tithing. I think that much is very legitimate.

tpia@:

any discussions on what to do about the high rate of immorality, fetish behaviour and marriage break ups among christians today?

[size=13pt] Because the church today has replaced the Good News of Jesus Christ with tithes, lies, controlling the minds of believers and prosperity gospel [/size]

Enigma:

Whatever the case about what is on the website and whether the owner of the site should amend it (which I have no clue about), I think it is very very pertinent to point out, certainly in the context of this thread at least, when a case/argument/presentation for "voluntary" tithing does not really mean "voluntary" tithing. I think that much is very legitimate.

I agree as well, but was such a case presented herein?

nuclearboy:

@wordtalk:

I know you are not an advocate for anti-tithing! I have said that EVEN me am not whist being thought so because I argue against the COMPULSORY "legalistic" thrust it carries today!

What I meant with my statement was that your clarification about the "voluntary" nature it ought have takes the wind out of the sail of those who lay heavy loads upon God's people and who sought to use your initial statements as a prop for their avarice

I deeply apologise where I might have misread yours or come across in a manner not intended. I was just put off by the attitude of those who cannot be rest content with the simple matters I have made plain for myself. Thanks for your understanding.

debosky:

I agree as well, but was such a case presented herein?

If you mean on this thread - YES!

I am being a bit slow aren't I?

Links please, to avoid further vain repetition.

Ah I nor fit do that one oh, I don even tire for de thread well well; you just have to read through anyway for full context, I beg.

nlMediator:

It's true that even before the Jews, others tithed. But is that really relevant to us, i.e., can we really say it was instituted by God? Since these people did not know God - God revealed Himself to Abraham and the Jewsih people - aren't their practices simple guides at best that should not be taken with the level of seriousness we see with the tithe?

Who are the other tithers who didn't know God?

Enigma:

@ Nuke

The reason why my questions have been difficult for wordtalk to answer is very simple: "voluntary" does not truly mean "voluntary"! 

Now I see it.

If WT truly believes tithes not given in church should not be called tithing, then that is something I would disagree with.

However, if this is an opinion or a viewpoint, and not the definitive requirement for tithing, it makes little difference to me personally.

Now I do understand your harping on the voluntary - i.e. you are asking if WT's view is that voluntary tithing can only occur if such tithing is done in a church setting, with anything else done outside of that (while being 'up to them') is not considered tithing, rather it is just some other form of giving.

Like I said, forgive me for being a bit slow on the uptake.

^^^ You dis bọbọ, you sabi book small oh!

Joagbaje:

Who are the other tithers who didn't know God?

The Babylonians, for example, who tithed well before Abram was born. See : http://www.keithhunt.com/Tithe2.html. Certainly, they did not know the true God and their tithes were to their gods.

^^

See this intelligent "NlMediator" bobo - are you saying you don't know that the criteria for knowing "god" is paying tithe?

Those Babylonians were born-again Jor - since they tithed!

nlMediator:

The Babylonians, for example, who tithed well before Abram was born. See : http://www.keithhunt.com/Tithe2.html. Certainly, they did not know the true God and their tithes were to their gods.

Nice Article, but there's no biblical evidence for it that's why I don't quote such. But certain truths are universal . Men gave offerings, dance,and do worship to other Gods. In certain towns here nobody can eat yam until till priest of the village has eaten the first or biggest yam. That is first fruits. The spirit of man can pick certain spiritual truths.
The father Inlaw of Moses was a priest, but was not a Jew .

Job was not a Jew but he was offering sacrifices to God . So the spirit of men even in it's dead state can still pick some spiritual truths even though they may go about it wrongly. But the idea that Abraham was influenced by Babylonia culture is not acceptable , he would have copied some of their evil culture also. It was clear God called him out of idolatry . If tithing was pagan practice ,he definateky would have dumped it. Tithing , prayers, offerings, worship are all based on spiritual principles .