₦airaland Forum

frosbel: Though the bolded is possible, I have not seen it in my bible




You just contradicted yourself, how can MAN be a spirit who has a soul and lives in a body when the bible says MAN is a Soul who has a Body and spirit , this spirit being the essence of his life , the breath of GOD ?

If you read carefully the later part of Gen 2:7 , MAN only became living when God breathed into him, GOD did not create a spirit , he simply imparted life to the MAN's inanimate body.

It was precisley after this episode that MAN became a living SOUL , by inference therefore, MAN is a SOUL made up of Body ( dust ) and spirit ( life or breath from GOD ).

When MAN dies, his spirit or life which is from GOD leaves the body and the MAN returns to the dust.

To buttress this position, when God pronounced a curse on Mankind , he never said you are spirit and will return to the dust, no , he said DUST THOU ART and to dust thou shall return.

This is what the Jewish Bible site had to say about this :

You say two unclear - or perhaps - contradictory things. You refer to dust as the body, and I agree with you on that. Then, you say that when God spoke in Genesis 2:7 that man is dust and shall return to dust. From there, you come to the conclusion that man is soul and that the soul retuns to the dust. How do you make the leap from dust being body to dust being soul? Also, you state that the real man is the soul. And you use Gen. 2:7 to disagree with the assertion that man is a spirit. But won't that also mean that you'd use Gen. 2:7 to disagree that man is a soul, since it speaks of man being dust? My point is that you're making assertions and drawing conclusions that do not flow or follow logically. Kindly clarify this particular point.

shdemidemi: I respect your position, but the bible proves me right, time and time again. If you can open with me to letter to Timothy.
1 tim 4
4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

The devil have infiltrated the church, we now bring all sort of doctrine that divert us from the gospel of Christ to the doctrine of devil. Example of such doctrine are miracle, marriage, prosperity, e.t.c. The man told his 'son' to point out these doctrine of devil and stick to what he had taught him.

13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

Notice, in verse 13 he did not tell him to be claiming anything,he says study and exhort the doctrine. Check the full story, there is nothing like miracle or any of such. If you don't study correctly your depth is shallow and you can be easily moved by the wind of any doctrine.

Notice Timothy never said any spirit spoke to him, he was commanded by Paul to carry out the same doctrine he has been taught. When people say spirit is speaking to them asides the word written in the scripture, it must be a seducing spirit from the devil.

Lord, are you for real, my brother! So, Paul tells Timothy to watch out for seducing spirits. And you conclude that's about miracles and marriage? For goodness sake, I hope you're not a pastor, feeding the flock this garbage.

^^^ Man, quit being ridiculous. Did Jesus or Peter or Paul heal everybody in the hospital in their city? You've finally revealed the truth about yourself. Yours is a powerless christianity without miracles to confirm the Word. Paul made it clear that was not the type of gospel he was preaching. His was a gospel evidenced by power - a demonstration of spirit and power. Yours is talk, talk and more talk. How sad.

shdemidemi: My brother go to the same book of corinthians, you would see the gifts that are left. The gifts left are the gift of love, the gift of knowledge and the gift of teaching/prophesy. Do you think it was a coincidence that the only church that had problems with these gifts was the corinth church. Paul spoke to them as babies in the faith. Search through all the seven letters of Paul if you would see any church that talks of miracle , tongues and all other spiritual gifts you think you have.

Your approach to Biblical interpretation has no sound foundation. So, unless something is repeated in another letter written by Paul, I should discount it? And even if they are babies in the faith, are there no babies in the faith today? Is everyone mature? So, why shouldn't babies in the faith today get the same benefits (healings, miracles, etc) that the Corinthian babies enjoyed? The challenge you have is to show where the Bible says that healings and miracles have seized. You cannot show it. Besides, you go ahead to self-contradict, claiming that God would heal today according to His Will. I thought healings have seized - how come God would heal today according to His Will? And the ones He healed in the Bible, were they contrary to His Will? if not, what's the difference between their healing and the one you say has seized?

frosbel: Presumption is not a virtue.

I believe in the power of GOD to heal , but sickness is not always as a result of SIN in a believers life or a sign of God's wrath, for if we hold on to this erroneous position, it means Timothy and Epaphroditus were sinners , no ?

Besides what is medicine for, why did Jesus mention doctors when talking about the sick if he thought this was not necessary ?

"When Jesus heard this, he told them, "Healthy people don't need a doctor--sick people do. I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners." - Mark 2:17



Regarding working, I doubt very much that people who work will starve to death, besides we are supposed to meet the needs of all our brethren especially those who are poor, I wonder why Jesus specifically asked his disciples not to forget the poor. Since you and your friends deride and despise the poor , you should better read the bible to see how the early church cared for them and met all their needs. Poverty is not a crime, it is a situation.

"Galatians 2:10
Only, they asked us to remember the poor the very thing I was eager to do."

Psalm 140:12 “I know that the LORD secures justice for the poor and upholds the cause of the needy.”

Luke 12:33 "Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys."

You either assume things I never said or you move the goal post. Where did I say that sickness was always a result of sin? About working and starving, if you didn't know that, I suggest you google it. And your initial comment was not about starving TO DEATH. You extended it beyond what you wrote earlier.

shdemidemi: @ bolded, never..The best any man can do is pray. Your prayer or lack of it does not stop the will of God. If you have to be jobless for God to pass a message to you, pray from now till tomorrow, you will be jobless. Praying is a communication between you and God and not all the begging we do in the name of God. God has not appointed anybody in this age with the gift to heal anyone. We can only commununicate with God as christians, if its in His will to do it, it will happen if its not it won't. Never for once think, things happened because of your prayer, things only happen according to the will of God.

I can see where "your" problem is. You conflate things. You think it is inconsistent to say that one is gifted to heal and believe that the resulting healing is the Will of God? In 1 Cor. 12, God made clear that He gave gifts of healings and working of miracles to some people in the Church. If those gifts mean nothing, why bother giving them, since anybody can just wait and see whether God wants to heal them or not? And saying that God wants to teach you a lesson through a particular experience conflates the idea that not every experience is a lesson. And is it not funny you ask people to go to hospital when they're sick. Why don't they stay at home and suffer and go through the experience that God brought to them? And you don't think you're going against God's will by recommending hospitals since God's will is for that person to stay sick? Oh, you are beginning to sound like a broken record with this noise that people should go to work. I'm pretty sure, I work much harder than you do and sleep far less than you do. But I know that there is a God factor in success, even in the midst of hard work.

frosbel: The Apostles must have been sinners then, no ? SMH.

"…11Even to this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwelling place; 12And labor, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: 13Being defamed, we entreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things to this day"

Listen , if you do not work you will starve, if you do not take care of your health you will fall sick and maybe even die, if you cause trouble and refuse to live at peace with others, you will also have no peace.

I guess you do not realize that there are people that work and still starve; people that take care of their health and still fall sick? I know of a woman that had lung cancer even though she wasn't smoking. Babies have sicknessess and diseases that they had noting to do with - from the womb and outside. And your answer to that is to take care of your health? I think you people try to mask your powerless christianity in too many words. People need solutions and you offer them virtually nothing.

shdemidemi: Check all the names you listed alongside Paul...Are they preaching the gospel?
Is the word of faith ministry part of the gospel? Is prosperity teaching part of the gospel? Of course not, these doctrines are from the deepest part of hell.

Apostle Paul said to all believers through the Holy Spirit 'follow my teachings as I follow Christ'. His teachings were clear for all to see, the man also said in Gal 1
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Therefore any man that claims he has got a new revelation from God is a liar. We have 1 message from God, the gospel that has the power unto salvation for anyone who believe.

Yeah, they are preaching the mesage from hell, simply because you say so. Why don't you talk to the multitudes that God has used them to bring to a saving knowledge of Jesus? Or maybe, you question the salvation of those ones too? And you need to take your own advice. You say that any man that claims he has a new revelation beside the gospel preached by Paul is a liar. Yet, you are the one claiming based on "progressive revelation" that the power of miracles has seized. Something Paul never preached.

Bidam: Mr..antitither we don hear you..What contributions have you made to the body of Christ since you became born again?

Apostle Paul was a mere man with like passions just like us and he proved his ministry.
E. W kenyon was also a mere mortal and he proved his ministry.
Kenneth hagin of blessed memory also proved his ministry.
Archbishop benson idahosa proved his ministry.
Bishop oyedepo proved his ministry.

what is the proof of your ministry? you just come online spewing thrash and lies about these men who have done no wrong as far as am concerned. Are You saying the word of faith is not biblical prove it with scriptural backing lets see instead of name-callings and blaming you always do whenever you post which is your style anyway.

I completely endorse the above message.

shdemidemi: ^^^^^^ stop making the scripture say what you want it to say bro...All we have on earth is our salvation and hope of sharing eternal life in God's glory. This assurance gives us joy even at the time of tribulation and difficulties. You will go through the valley of the shadow of death, He shall comfort you. You will go through fire, He shall be there with you. If God provides all our desires today, we will not need him anymore. God has placed a believer in a position where you would need him everyday to sustain you according to His will.

6 Now godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 8 And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content. 9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

You can never tell what God is doing even while you are going through difficulties and persecution . If the devil knew what God was doing when Christ suffered and died on the cross, he would have prevented it from happening. If the devil knew what God was doing when Joseph was going through his sufferings, he would have avoided it. That you are going through problems means You are heading some where and you can never tell what God's eventual plan is, even the devil does not know.

Seek the kingdom, seek the kingdom God says he will add every other thing, asking God for the other things is like telling him he can't see. Paul prayed to him three times for his pain to go away, God replied him saying my grace is sufficient. In whatever situation, we should believe His grace is sufficient for us. Christ said to the rich man, give all you have to the poor and follow me.

In the parable of the sower, Christ said some were sown among the thorns, they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful..

No, you are the one trying to make the scriptures say what they are not saying. And your position is based on contadictions. You say God has not promised us anything, yet you also claim we can pray to Him to answer our prayers. Is the promise of answered prayers not a promise? Why are you praying to God when you don't think He'll answer? And you talk of the rich man and Jesus and also Paul's writing to Timothy on the rich but do not present it fully. Paul wrote to Timothy about the rich and what was the message to the rich? Not to trust in uncertain riches. The message was not to give up all their wealth or leave the Church.

DrummaBoy: When I was in JSS3, i came across a book titled THE COSMIC POWER WITHIN YOU. The theme of that book was that every human has a power within him, which if harnessed can bring health and wealth. The author did not refer to Jesus, his death or resurrection. But the book was replete with testimonies of healing and financial breakthroughs.

I now know that the man was a New Ager but truth is his message differ nothing from Hagin, etc, except that the latter based their teaching on Mark 11:24.

The teaching of Word of Faith is that a human being can exert HIS faith in God so much that he will see results (many times with or without recourse to God's will). The man is the centre and his pleasure, not God or Jesus, is the centre of this teaching. His happiness, success and well being is the focus and not God's will.

Most of the literature of these faith teachers rely more on testimonies and result and not simple faith - as scripture commands: the just shall live by faith.

I hope you know your message of Grace and God's love is also preached by New Agers - the One Love Crowd - only that they do not mention Jesus or give Him preeminence? So, going by your logic, your message is also false and you can rightly be branded a false teacher or a false prophet. I read some of the other stuff you wrote. There's no doubt that because we are dealing with human vessels, the message of God is not always delivered as purely as trasmitted from Heaven. But you take it to an unhealthy extreme when you use that to condemn what you know very little about. Hagin understood grace and holiness and lived it far better than you.

frosbel: I have to agree with you , Timothy comes to mind, also I wonder why Luke the doctor was such as important part of the early church's ministry.

We might as well call Timothy a fake since he fell ill quite a few times.

"Don't continue drinking only water, but use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses." - 1 Timothy 5:23

What about Epaphroditus ?

"25 But I think it is necessary to send back to you Epaphroditus, my brother, co-worker and fellow soldier, who is also your messenger, whom you sent to take care of my needs. 26 For he longs for all of you and is distressed because you heard he was ill. 27 Indeed he was ill, and almost died. But God had mercy on him, and not on him only but also on me, to spare me sorrow upon sorrow." - Philippians 2:25-27



The truth is that while we are in this body we are subject to the same infirmities as other men, if we do not take care of our bodies our health will fail.

This is not to say that God does not heal , for indeed he does, but he has also provided medicines for us to heal and recover from ailments.

I think you guys are arguing with yourselves and are not referring to anything I said. Where did I say that a christian cannot fall sick? I am glad you agree that God can heal TODAY or in this age. That's my point. And He can heal today in response to the prayers of the saints and also the prayers of those He has specially gifted to do so.

shdemidemi: Philippians 4:13
11 Not that I speak in regard to need, for I have learned in whatever state I am, to be content: 12 I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have learned both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need13 I can do all things through Christ[b] who strengthens me

bro, these are verses before the verse 13..The man is not saying he has any earthly advantage, all he is saying is that the word of God(holy spirit)/Christ strengthens him. These are words of encouragement/prophecy.

You added the bolded yourself..We are above sin because we are sure of eternal life with God not above sickness or disease. Anyone can be sick regardless of their religion.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Your initial statement was that there is nothing that the Bible promises to the christian in this life that is not promised to the unbeliever. Yet, you acknowledge that Jesus gives strength to Paul (and christians) here. Are you saying that Jesus gives this same strength to non-christians to do all things? If that's the case, why is Paul mentioning it? Why couldn't he simply say that God strengthens him like He does other human beings? And I mentioned other Scriptures. Does the unbeliever have the grace to reign in life over sin, as Rom. 5:17 promises the believer?

shdemidemi: That is not what Romans 5:17 says
17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)


chk pls

there is only 1 chapter in philemon sir




please check properly so we can discuss on them

My brother, it's Phillipians, not Philemon. And what you quoted from Rom. 5:17 is exactly what I'm saying. The christian reigns in this life - over sin and its consequences (including sickness and disease). The unbliever does not.

shdemidemi: Fine..at least, I did not in any way print the bible, I only quoted from the scripture, which I believe you have the same similar copy. Give me a quote from the scriptures where you would find the opposite of what I said.

If you had read my posts properly, I never said Christians shouldn't work or acquire skills, all I am saying is that the gospel of Christ did not promise you anything more than a non-Christian in this world. In fact, when you know Christ the devil torment your body more. But, the battle of your soul is what God is primarily interested with.

You quoted the Bible alright, but it is not a complete picture from the Bible. Beyond acquisition of skills and working hard, the christian has some advantage that the non-christian does not have. Sure, the Bible promises the christian some things more than a non-christian in this world. Since you love to refer to Paul, let's start from there. Rom. 5:17 - those who receive (present tense) abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness shall reign in THIS life through Christ Jesus. Phil. 4:13 - I can do all things through Christ that strengthens me. Phil. 4:19 - my God shall supply all your need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus. Not to forgot that Jesus said that healing is the bread of the children of the Kingdom, not outsiders. If you want some more scriptures on the believer's advantage, let me know. I agree with you though that the christian is also susceptible to more attacks from the devil. Since the devil already owns the unbeliever, he may not want to bother him a lot.

frosbel: , this is an issue that I have spent 'tons' of hours on, together with other honest brethren, going over scripture, articles , documents, historical creeds etc and testing their origin or spirit behind these points of view. I have not seen any other possibility but this one fact , that God is not in the torture business, though it is well known that this was one of the hobbies of the apostate roman church.

Besides, I waited for no more than a few minutes to accept that I could have been wrong , while on the other matter I have stuck to the truth for eons , no ?




I am happy you accept I did some research as I am apt to these days, it's not enough to say yes when I am not 100% certain , especially when the idea does indeed sound a little bizarre as it did to me at the time.



I am sure I will get to this part of the bible in the process of reviewing all my previous learnings, though the story is very common, the nitty gritty details still require further analysis, besides I have never claimed to be an authority on doctrine, I simply use the bible to support certain stand points especially those that are contrary to the creeds and dogams of the institulionaliused church.



Oh dear, this is getting serious, if you cannot do your research like the noble Bereans, you have yourself to blame.

I am sure a mark of pride is to refuse correction, don't you agree.

It sure is a mark of pride to refuse correction. It's a wise admonition that we all should heed from time to time.

shdemidemi: My friend, the bible is a progressive revelation. At the time snake bit Paul , the power of miracle had not seized and it wasn't the will of God that he died at that particular time. As par the bolded, I have many verses to show you comfort in this world isn't part of the deal. The deal is that even When you are going through the roughest times God is still good cos you have hope of a better place. The apostle said-
21 To me, the only important thing about living is Christ. And even death would be for my benefit.[c] 22 If I continue living here on earth, I will be able to work for the Lord. But what would I choose—to live or to die? I don’t know. 23 It would be a hard choice. Sometimes I want to leave this life and be with Christ. That would be much better for me; 24 however, you people need me here alive. 25 I am sure of this, so I know that I will stay here and be with you to help you grow and have joy in your faith.


How many Christian have this sort of mentality, we claim we have faith, but we cherish the comfort of this earth than the hope of heaven. We take care of our body than the real us which is inside the body. No matter how rich you are God sees you as suffering on earth, the scripture says-

7 And our hope for you is steadfast, because we know that as you are partakers of the sufferings, so also you will partake of the consolation.

This gospel teaches contentment-
7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 8 And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content.

And an admonition to people who desire the sort of break through we pray for in our contemporary churches--

9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Your position, simply put, is not God's Word. First, you cannot find any Scripture that says that the power of miracles seized at any point - before or after Paul. Couching it in terms of "progressive revelation" is unpersuasive. Second, you have to separate the attitude of the christian who craves comfort from what I'm saying. Many christians today do not want to suffer and want to float on a bed of ease. But that's not to say that Christianity is the opposite extreme which you advocate, that is, that the christian should accept a life of constant and endless suffering. No, the christian can choose to fight suffering and discomfort, while patiently for the Lord's deliverance. Paul said he knows what it means to abound and to be abased. He did not say the latter is the only option for the christian. The 3 Hebrew children in Daniels got it right: God will deliver His own from troubles. But even if He doesn't, His children will continue to serve Him and not bow to the devil. That's the correct approach. Quoting Scriptures that say one thing while ignoring numerous ones that present a more balanced picture will not cut it.

frosbel: actually I took my own advice and did the research, my conclusion is either God or an angel he sent carried out this sentence. You are right on this count, thanks for the enlightenment , I humbly accept your correction.

However this does not buttress your overall contribution to this topic.

God will destroy sinners not torment them for eons, the bible does not support this fallacy.

That's the more reason why you need to be humble about this whole issue, since there is a real possibility that you may be more wrong than you think. Only a few hours ago, you're convinced that something somebody said was a crazy idea (which, btw, is the way you see others' opinion on this topic) only to acknowledge a little later that you're wrong. Oh, and that even took some extra resistance on your part, until you're forced to do some "research." And frankly, if you didn't know that elementary point from Scriptures (a popular portion of the Bible - plagues in Exodus), there is really a lot you need to learn. And making yourself an authority on people's eternal destiny is not a good place to start. A word is enough for the wise.

shdemidemi: If you were Joseph, I am sure you would want to pray yourself out of prison but God's will was that he went through prison and all he suffered.

If you were Paul, I am sure You would say God was not with you after all the sufferings. Paul laid is life for the course, He was told not to go to Rome but what did he say-
14 Do all things without complaining and disputing, 15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain.

17 Yes, and if I am being poured out as a drink offering on the sacrifice and service of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all. 18 For the same reason you also be glad and rejoice with me.


Why didn't he pray for heaven to come down. The problem is , most Christians love this world more because they don't know what is on the other side. Suffering is part of the deal bro.

You're right that as long as the christian is on this earth, he'll face some form of suffering, trial, tests or temptation. The problem is that you make it appear that every suffering or staying in suffering is always the will of God. Nothing in the Scriptures or any part of the Word of God says that. When the snake bit Paul, he did not endure it or suffer a slow and painful death. He received victory over the snake bite. You seem to be telling christians (being) bitten by the snake of sickness, etc today to endure it and "hope" for divine intervention or even accept it into the life beyond. No. That's not what the Bible says. It tells us to resist the devil (the author of sickness and mishaps) and he will flee. It shows us in the life of Jesus that He was solving people's problem and releasing them from all sorts of prison (bondage), not telling them to be a reincarnate of Joseph in Egypt.

thorpido: May the Spirit of the Lord continue to fire us up and increase God's knowledge in us.

However we all need to grow in knowledge.Pentecost celebration was not for the Christians.The early Christians did not celebrate pentecost but were huddled up in a room on the day of pentecost.It was the Jews who were celebrating pentecost.

The term 'pentecostal churches' or pentecostals(for christians) is a misnomer.

Do you know of any christian that celebrates Pentecost? I think you're assuming a problem where none exists. Christians are aware of what happened on that particular day of Pentecost when the disciples were filled with the Holy Ghost. It does not mean they celebrate the Pentecost nor even celebrate the outpouring of the Holy Ghost. I do not understand in what sense a Pentecostal christian or church is a misnomer. We associate things or persons with landmark events, without that being a misnomer. Again, this is much ado about nothing on your part.

It's always interesting that every time this topic is discussed, you hardly hear one story about real life experiences of the people most vocal about the issue. It's only in Chrstianity that one can be an expert on any topic with little experience. People in the field dealing with these issues know what they see and that it is no fun. People who know little about how it works can always take comfort in quoting and misquoting scriptures, satisfying themselves that they have superior knowledge while many people are out there suffering. I want them to come here and share stories of people freed from demonic activity through their pontification. Without that, they're wasting their time. And other people's.

frosbel: Are you for real

So destruction is on the same level as 1 trillion years in eternal torment ?

God is loving in that he respects the wishes of MANKIND, in other words, those who aim for life will receive life while those who choose death will get their just deserts. Is this not love ? allowing people to make an informed decision without coercing them either way ?



Well , if your GOD will torture his creation for endless ages, it cannot be the GOD of the bible , that is plain and scriptural.





Indeed God is a consuming fire which goes even further to destroy you logic ,for if a fire is consuming , it consumes to ashes the objects of it's immense heat and burning. God's consuming fire does not linger beyond the destruction of the wicked.




Indeed , I reject the false god of sadism and religion.

Why don't you go to an atheist and tell him you serve a LOVING God who would destroy the unbeliever (for not believing in Jesus) and at the same time tell him that you do not believe Hitler, Stalin, Mao and other mass murderers are good people? I'll like to hear his response, commending your logical prowess. The point is that you cannot justify either conduct - eternal torment or one-time destruction - if your argument is anti-sadism. If you cannot grasp such elementary idea, maybe this topic is too high for you. BTW, can you find anywhere in the NT where God, who has urged christians to LOVE their neighbors, supports christians destroying their enemies for any reason?

TroGunn: Killing unrepentant sinners is an act of love. Love for his obedient servants. God is allowing ample time for those who want to to repent. He hates having to destroy anyone. But because he's promised eternal peaceful future for the obedient ones, the unrepentant wicked must be removed so these don't disturb God's loyal ones. It's surely an act of love. Tormenting the wicked eternally is not, but clear sadism - something that is not in God's mind according to the Bible.


Psalm 37:9-13--- For those who are evil will be destroyed,but those who hope in the Lord will inherit the land. A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found. But the meek will inherit the land and enjoy peace and prosperity. The wicked plot against the righteous and gnash their teeth at them; but the Lord laughs at the wicked,for he knows their day is coming.

Hitler and co are wicked because they act out the script of Satan -indiscriminate murder. God's judgement against unrepentant wicked can't be compared to that.

What we reject is the satanic lie that God derives some sort of sick joy from eternally tormenting the wicked.

I don't think anybody here has ever said that God derives any joy from tormenting people eternally. Just as I'm sure you've never said God derives some joy in destroying the wicked (to protect the saved). Problem is you accuse the others of saying so, when such logic applies to you too. If you can't see the illogic in insisting otherwise, you're free to continue with your strawman argument.

^^

I'm surprised you couldn't lift a finger to defend the charge of sadism you've made in countless posts around here. The simple question for you is: if you believe God would do what Hitler & Co. did, can you still justify your stance against eternal torment on the basis that it contraditcts the nature of a loving God to punish people eternally? In simpler terms, is it loving of God to destroy people one time as punishment?

If you can't defend that, then you need to quit deceiving yourself that you're arguing for a loving God and using that as a cudgel to attack others for presenting God as a sadist. Neither one time destruction nor everlasting punishment shows love. [And btw, it is irrelevant whether one is worse than the other].

But you know what? God has a side that is not about love, as we human beings define it. He is also a God of Justice; a consuming fire.

Of course, if you create a false image of God, to suit whatever interest you may have (love, etc), you can't be sure you're still describing the same God. That's the same thing as rejecting Him. If I insist you're a Caucasian female and truly beleive it, do you think I'll receive you as you when you knock on my door and appear as a black man?

[b][/b]

TroGunn: Just stating facts, bro. The teaching insults God. It's one of Satan's lies and it finds no support in the Bible. See clear simple Bible truths in the verses I quoted. God gives ample information on true teachings in the Bible. And it's understandable. Because he's a God of love. He didn't need to, but chose to explain things for us.

This teaching of eternal torment falls flat on so many fronts. Why does God need to see the wicked tormented eternally? What purpose does that serve? Does God derive pleasure somewhat from it? Can you answer from the Bible?

The Bible's clear message is that the wages of sin is death (absence of life); but he rewards those faithful to him with eternal life.

Any reference to fire as regards destruction has been shown from the Bible as being symbolic and denotes permanent destruction. The question is, will the stranglehold that traditions have on you let U believe this simple truth?

Don't you think the same questions can be posed back to you and used to impeach your arguments: Why does God need to see the wicked destroyed? What purpose does that serve? Can't God simply forgive them; after all, he tells us to forgive those who have wronged us? Does God derive pleasure somewhat from destroying sinners? Can you answer from the Bible?

You see, deciding on the question of eternal torment from the perspective of sadism is simply insensible and illogical. Because those who make that point agree that God would destroy the dead one time as punishment. But that meets the definition of sadism. Even mere human beings, much less christians, would be criticized for killing others - especially billions of people. That's why Hitler, Stalin, Mao are villified till today. They did not have to torment anybody eternally for them to be considered evil and sadistic. So, if you think God is no longer a God of love because of eternal torment, then you have to also concede He is not a God of love by killing or destorying people - including people that did Him no direct wrong; only that they rejected His message. And you also have to concede that the God in the Old Testament that helped the Israelites destroy their enemies is not the true God.

Bottomline: some of us may be toying with the danger of rejecting the only true God. I'd urge caution.

chukwudi44: One of the very rare occassions where I will quite agree with Frosbel.This heresy is indeed one of the most dangerous heresies ever to emerge in xtianity.The word of faith movement have used this heresy to give its members free pass to sin.

Let us be careful not to bear false witness. I know many people who belong to what you call the Word of Faith "movement" and not one of them believes in or preaches "once saved, always saved." In fact, I was at a major convention last year when Jesse Duplantis stated openly that he did not believe in the message. If you have any information to the contrary, please share with us. One prominent minister I know that believes in eternal salvation is Charles Stanley. And he is Southern Baptist, not WOF. I'd even consider him opposed to WOF.

^^^
You keep hurling insults my way, even when I try to ignore them and inject some humor. I don't know what your problem is. But I certainly know that you're not worth my time. That I hang out around here does not mean I do not know who I am.

ooman: Because your questions do not show intelligent thought. Disgusting!!

Wow, see how easy it was to get you to concede that your premise lacks intelligent thought?! My question followed the same line - are similar cultural traditions necessarily works of plagiarism? If you had adopted the same approach toward the Greeks, Persians, Hindu etc as you did with the Jews, you'd not have opened the thread. Now, go deal with those issues burning your intestines. BTW, Jesus is ready to help. He's the Healer, you know.

ooman: Genesis is not just similar to the Ebla docs, it in fact contains the Ebla docs and since Ebla docs are older than the Bible. The Isrealites copied the Eblas. This is what archaeologists have proven true with proofs.

In other words, you have no intelligent answer to my question(s)? Shocking!

ooman: Archaeologists think the Jews copied the Eblas. Ebla civilization is older than Adam himself. So shut up and do some reading.

Let's stipulate that the Jews copied the Eblas and that Ebla civilization long preceded Adam and that I need to do some reading. Now, can you answer my simple question: The Persians, Hindu and Greek have similar stories: Who did they copy from? From each other? From the Eblas?

ooman: are you saying God appeared to the Eblas first, because the Jews will not take that likely with you!!

Your ignorance is showing. I hope your atheism is not founded on such a weak level of reasoning. No Jew would claim that God appeared to the Jews first. God appeared to Adam first. And Adam was not a Jew. Every Jew also knows that Adam had many descendants before anyone thought of the birth of Israel (Jacob). Yes, my response was based principally on the creation story. If you went to p.93 of the Halley book I referred you to, you'll see other traditions regarding the creation story, Garden of Eden and Adam's Fall:

"Persian: Our first parents, innocent, virtuous, and happy, lived in a garden, where there was a tree of immortality, until an evil spirit in the form of a serpent appeared."
Hindu: In the first age, people were free from evil and disease, they had everything they wished for, and lived long.
Greek: The first people, in the golden age, were naked, free from evil and trouble, and enjoyed communion with the gods."

There are other accounts. Which of these traditions is plagiarizing the other?

ooman: ^^^ the ebla docs are older than the bible. This should tell you that the bible alludes to ebla and not vice versa. The Jews do not have/own original version of creation.

You did not catch the point. There was neither allusion nor plagiarism. The Ebla, like every other human, descended from Adam. They told their (creation) stories as they recollected it as it passed on from Adam down the line. The Jews told theirs, as they recollected it (I'm not mentioning God to make the point clearer to you). So neither is copying from the other. It's like your grandfather had several sons, including your father. He tells them a story about the family. Your father tells you the story he heard from his dad. Your uncles also tell their children what they heard from their dad. Some of your uncles and cousins wrote their story down. Years later, you write down the story your father told you. The fact that your uncles and cousins had the story and wrote it before you does not mean you copied from them or even knew their own written accounts of the story existed. So, you need to drop the plagiarism charge.