₦airaland Forum

Pastor Kun: They don't collect salaries because the church account is merely an appendage of their personal account. They already have unfettered access to the church's finances to spend as they please so why should they restrict themselves to salaries?

I for instance run my own personal business and I don't collect a salary from it but that does not mean I am not the chief beneficiary of the business so you guys should stop playing on our intelligence.

I'm sorry, but your post betrays a lack of familiarity with the facts about some of these ministries. The ministers have millions in their bank account, e.g. from selling books that they have no need to dip into the church's finances. That a business head or even some head pastors have compete control of and access to the church's finances does not mean that one cannot be independently wealthy apart from church funds. Rick Warren made so much money from his books that he paid back to the church all the salary they paid him over the years and now tithes about 90% if I'm not mistaken. I guess to you, he paid all that money back because he has access to the funds and can take it back. That makes no sense.

Goshen360: ^

There no ONE Apostle that received constant, continuous and monthly 'pay' as salary but support. This support must be from the people's heart and decision as they desire it to be fit towards whatever they want to give. This to me, is even better than 'fixed', constant and continuous 'monthly' salary'. Again, ministry is not about gathering people together and making merchandise of them but a call to service and to serve.

You're in ministry to give to people and the people when taught, in return should by the knowledge of what was taught see the light of the scriptures by the Holy Spirit to extend their pocket to their teacher, NOT their teacher demanding monthly 'pay'. That's exactly what Paul was saying when he said, "don't he have the right to living"?

Many church leaders use Paul's example to justify 'pay' for gospel ministers BUT they also refuse to take the sacrificial decision of Paul when he said, he did not use this right because to advance the gospel. We cannot take one side of Paul's right and leave out his sacrifice - saying, that's his personal decision. Aren't all ministers of the gospel?

You're right that people giving to ministers is even better than salary. That's why I don't understand what the fuss is about. Do people realize that virtually none of the big ministers of today - be it Oyedepo, Osteen, Prince - receive a salary? And they are even richer than when they did.

However, I disagree with you that because the Apostles did not receive a salary, it becomes a standard for us to follow today. We're bound by Scriptures, not examples that were informed by the context of their existence. Neither Jesus nor Paul married. Why are you not insisting that ministers not marry? Oh, I forgot some christians already do. It's called the Catholic Church. And neither Jesus nor some of the early apostles received formal education. So, why not discourage formal training for ministers or even formal education beyond elementary schooll? Oh, some christians already do. It's called the Amish.

Candour: My bro, we have the apostles and our Lord as examples in Scriptures and even the prophets of the old testament as examples. Can you point to one that had a smooth ride? have you read Foxe's book of martyrs to see how all the apostles ended their lives? What about Hosea who was forced to marry a prostitute and live with the stigma? how many chariots did Elisha, Elijah, Jeremiah etc have? My bro, If we have to go by the life our forbears of ministry lived, we will find it hard to refer to pastors of today as men of God. Pls hope you dont see Solomon, David in the same mold as Elijah or Elisha?

No matter how we look at it, the service in the vineyard of the Most High God comes with peril, deprivations, etc and that is the truth. The work of the ministry is not a pathway to gain and profit. Paul said as much to Timothy in 1Tim 6:5. Paul described it as the life of a soldier because that is what it is. We Christians must endeavor not to allow our ministers become destitute of resources but a pastor who is called into ministry must be ready to tread a rough road if he accepts it.

@ the bolded, Why can't he change his fortunes if he is opportuned? but saying the congregation or ministry owe him a similar lifestyle to that of the rich elite of his congregation is a totally wrong statement. If it's just a question of meeting needs, it wont be a problem but when our ministers now try to measure the quality of life they live by the number of cars or houses they own thereby competing with the rich elite in their congregation, then i am afraid they've missed it.

This isn't a picture i created bro. It's the reality of the life of a worker in the vineyard and examples abound all over the bible if you'll look for it.

No, the examples you gave do not work. I asked for scriptures - chapter and verse that support the idea that a minister's life outcomes should be different from that of the congregation. You did not provide any, because you have none. Instead, you choose to sensationalize things. The prophets you mentioned had their assignment, and executed it accordingly. That does not in any way suggest that in the OT, all ministers were like Elijah. A more appropriate example would be the priests (and the levites). Was Samuel poor? Were Eli's kids destitute while their neighbors were riding horses? Was Moses poor or living differently from the rest of the Israelites? Besides, our Lord Jesus made clear that His ministry was different from John the Baptist's, which was modelled after Elijah's. He did not live in the bush, dress differently or eat locusts and wild honey. For you to use an example even Jesus did not follow shows how off the mark you are on this issue. Saying that the Apostles died horrific deaths is meaningless in the context of this discussion. The issue is daily living, not manner of death. What makes you think that a guy that rides a BMW cannot die for Jesus, but the guy that owns a bicycle or beetle can? Again, ministry involves sacrifice - nobody is disputing that. The problem is that you're the one defining the sacrifice, not the Lord, not the Bible. Apart from the apostles, can you show me other ministers in the Bible that died the same way? Why didn't all the ministers that succeeded them in the early days of the Church die similarly? Because, they understood everybody has his call. They suffered in their own way. Ministers today suffer in their own way. That suffering does not ALWAYS mean being different from the congregation simply because you accepted the call of God.

God established the right model for ministry in the OT. And Paul adopted it in the Scriptures. That is: the tribe of Levi would not get any land. So they can be poor or different? No, so they would not be distracted. To ensure that they were not deprived economically because of the absence of an important factor of production - land - God arranged for their financial upkeep. Paul made clear that's how it should be. Those arguing differently are doing so out of emotions and human traditions. Not Scriptures.

^^

First of all, I should have made clear that the 2 people in my story were classmates - read the same course, the same year and in the same school. So, theoretically, their chances in life should be similar. Sure, ministry is sacrifice. But what we're discussing here does not negate sacrifice. It is sacrificial enough that the minister fasts several days a week while his friends are feasting on lobster and steak; it is sacrificial enough that the minister misses a whole lot of family events because he has to attend to the various needs of the congregation; it is a lot of sacrifice to devote countless hours, including constantly studying tons of material and picking up the phone at midnight to address a terrible situation that just arose relating to the church or its members. Granted, some ministers sacrifice more than the others, based on the nature of their asignment. However, ministry sacrifice does not necessarily mean you cannot own a house and that only the engineers at Mobil and similarly employed people should. Can you show me ONE place in the Bible where it says that if you choose to answer the call of God, you and your family forfeit all or most opportunities open to other christians? You are only creating your own picture of a ministry lifestyle and expectation that have no Biblical foundation, but only based on human traditions. What is happening is that some are condemning ministers to a life of poverty and penury because of the excesses of other ministers. That is as wrong as using the excess lifestyle as a yardstick for what a church should provide for its pastor. Both extremes are wrong.

And what you forgot to mention about people that study different courses is that while the Education student is expected to make less money than the Finance major, there are lots of educators (and graduates of less-lucrative courses) who through dint of hard work, proper investment and even wise inventions have become millionaires and much richer than the doctors, lawyers and bankers. But in your ministry example, the pastor no matter what he does cannot change his financial fortunes. Yet, every other person, including the teacher can. Again, can you show me where the Bible says that?

Image123: Some folks here are just plain ridiculous and have failed woefully in the second great commandment, to love your neighbour as yourself. i guess it would have been better if some had no Bible like most of the first century christians. So, a christian would need to be soundly drilled and convinced to agree that a minister of the gospel deserves to be paid. He is expected to only perhaps have his basic needs needs met. Basic needs in this case referring to feeding and clothing. There should be no thought for his family, he would not educate and raise his children, he would not send them to good schools, he would not have enough as to be able to do all the things that you want and pray to do, becuase he is a minister abi. What i see is people who have little or no field experience of what service is. They are just here to run mouth as talk is very cheap these days. You want to build house and become landlord of tenantS self, you want to buy car and change cars, buy for your wife and friends, you want to travel for courses, and go for vacation, you pray to be able to give quality education to your loved ones and kids in any part of the world, and to have access to the best medical care possible. But your minister should go and sit down and thank God that he can get breakfast today, shameless christains abound here.

This is what I've not been able to understand all these years. Two guys graduate from school. One gets a good job that assures a good living for himself and his family. The other hears and heeds the call of God to go into ministry. The non-minister buys cars for himself and his wife, builds houses in the city and the village, sends his kids to decent schools. His kids graduate and live a good life, while serving God, like their parents. The minister struggles to pay his house rent. He manages an old car with his wife. He has no house anywhere. His kids go to terrible schools and eventually end up in some low-skilled trade. Their life is hard, financially. They see their father's classmate and children and resent the path their minister father chose. They hate the ministry. In fact, their parents almost regret answering the call. "WE" run out good people from ministry and turn around to complain that charlatans run the church. Lord have mercy!

Zikkyy: blame it on the pastors/preachers/teachers of tithe. its due to the level of attention given to the preaching and collection. i want to believe tithe was not an issue in Nigeria 30 years ago, so why the sudden craze for tithe collection?



@bolded, It has to do with the 'quality' and 'size' (of congregation).



Maybe they are remitting to HQ (located somewhere in Lagos )



Lol @bolded, you made it sound like it was a shop he opened



Don't think you can separate the two. they go together

Oops, I posted a detailed response to you - or at least so I thought - but it looks like it never showed up. Oh well . . . .

Bidam: Here in Nigeria it's not up to 5 pastors that owns private jets,but it is on record that when the late saraki of ilorin died over 40 private jets landed in ilorin,and some of these jets where owned by imams.Where did imams get money to buy private jets? Is it not our tax payers money? Nobody is complaining about these things.

I know of bank executives who owns private jets using OPM(others people money) and people still see it as normal.Why is it that it's concerning the church you see most of these complains,arguments,negative criticism and rantings God will help his church.Amen.

I concur that the tithe issue is blown out of proportion. Granted, there are abuses but the critics go overboard – attributing to tithe collection the level of ‘evil’ powers it does not have. To put it in context, there are probably 100-200 pastors in Nigeria that are really rich. The rest (thousands) struggle even though they preach and collect tithes. I have a number of friends and relatives in ministry and I don’t see the wealth. A cousin of mine, after pastoring for about ten years, with a church that grew to several hundreds, and visiting the U.S. many times to preach, still had to depend on the aunt to send him money to renew his rent in Lagos. To people outside, he’s making it, but we knew the fuller story. A friend of mine is building a large auditorium in the Southwest of Nigeria, which has gulped tens of millions of Naira. He took me to his house recently. It was quite decent. Nothing rich or opulent, and I’m being charitable here. Frankly, it’ll take the grace of God for me to be able to sleep there for even one night. Nigerian churches here in the U.S. also preach tithes. But hardly any of them is quite rich. While some of the pastors are not necessarily poor, I know none of their pastors that lives large. I basically stopped wearing suits to church because the church doesn’t seem to have enough money to move to a more spacious accommodation yet or maintain a comfortable air-conditioning system. Interestingly, I heard last month that a friend in the U.S. closed a church he opened here, choosing to minister as an evangelist. Either he was not getting enough tithes or money could not keep him?

debosky: No - you still don't understand. Giftaid is simply a way to encourage people to give to charities and in majority of cases doesn't benefit the giver. It does affect their income because the money given to charities is taken from their incomes - the only difference is that the money they've paid in tax isn't lost to the government, but is instead directed to the charity. The giftaid money doesn't go to the individual, it goes to the charity or church. unless of course the individual is a higher rate payer and chooses to reclaim tax.

Even in the situation where the individual reclaims some tax, he is still giving more than he is getting back in tax - at least 2/3rds the amount.

The individual would have more money in his/her pocket if he/she didn't give than if he/she gave and claimed back tax.

That is correct. But I don’t think it defeats his larger point, which is that the Nigerian giver is giving more than the UK giver. In your example, the UK giver would be better off financially if he did not give; so, his motivation cannot all be about tax benefits – a point with which I agree. But the UK giver still gets some money back. The Nigerian giver gets nothing back from the government, and so is giving much more than the UK giver. Put differently, the Nigerian giver would keep more money in his pocket if he did not give at all than the UK giver would, which is the central point our beloved brother was making. [I didn’t want to bore with the math, but would be happy to do so if anybody wants it]. Also, I don’t know much about the UK, but I believe a lot of people in the U.S. take the tax deductions for charitable giving. That’s why it’s been difficult for President Obama or previous leaders to eliminate or reform it, with people complaining that universities and other institutions (Red Cross, etc) that depend on such giving would suffer greatly if a portion of the giving is not tax-deductible.

You seem like a fine gentleman and brother and I'll be happy to continue this conversation with you, but we may end up going around in circles, partly because you do not have as much facts as you should. Your exposure to Joel's message seems to be limited, so you are convinced he teaches only the things you think he teaches. For instance, do you know that at Lakeowood they teach about "ancestral curses"? And Deepak and Iyanla do teach hope but you err also on that score. First, the source of their hope is different from the hope Joel preaches - Jesus. They may appeal to the mind and the body but Joel's message with the anointing backing it penetrates to the spirit of man, in addition to the mental and physical realms. To the extent that Dr. Chopra and Ms. Vanzant are able to intervene spiritually, they would only use satanic powers and thus unable to TRULY deliver those under the bondage of their master. Joel's message delivers from demonic bondage, as I can testify to. Second, Jesus also taught on things other thinkers had taught eons before him, and I'm NOT talking of the OT. E.g., the Golden Rule. Following your logic, Jesus should not have mentioned it nor should we teach it today, because Ms. Vanzant can deliver a good message on that or some philosophers of old did? Joel's message may not be as deep as some would want but it has sufficient depth; just that his delivery is different. I've listened to virtually every major faith teacher today and I don't see how the teaching of say, Fred Price is different from Joel's on faith. Joel will give you the same message in summary without teaching the Bible passgaes line by line. Some people prefer Fred Price's approach. I'm fine with Joel's. Important thing is to get the message.

And I'm still trying to grasp what you mean by pointing people to the cross: are you saying every service we have, we should be talking about the cross and it doesn't matter whatever people are going through in their individual lives? Does it matter to you that nobody may even be listening to your beautiful message about the cross when their goods are out in the rain and their children risk sleeping on an empty stomach? Perhaps, you have a great formula for making people ignore their issues and pay serious attention to your CROSS message, as though telling people how to access the benefits Jesus died on the cross to give us is not part of the message.

Candour: I'll not argue with your experience but pls note it's YOUR OWN experience just like i relayed mine. I'm happy we both agree that Ministers should spend more time talking about the the cross than material benefits that might come because of the cross.

I listen to Joseph Prince also and even though he's friends with Joel Osteen, I can't but notice the difference between them. While Osteen quotes from Psalms and Proverbs majorly to make me feel good about myself, Prince opens the bible in a more detailed fashion which leaves his hearers with a better understanding of the bible.

Like I said, I've benefited from the motivational messages just as I've benefited from Gandhi's thoughts.but motivational messages will never take the place of the details of the cross.The message of the cross is not about a better here and now but a glorious new dawn when Christ returns.

Receiving a pep talk on success every Sunday didn't do my Spirit man much good and that is the summary of my post.

Cheers brother

Joel is NOT a theological giant and have never claimed to be one. In fact, he would be the first to tell you that. He always refers to the fact that he was content working the cameras for his dad and would never get up to preach, despite his father's urging on numerous occasions. If you can find the video of when Joseph Prince came to preach at Lakewood for the first time, you’d hear Joel saying that he marvels at Joseph Prince's knowledge of the Bible and his ability to present deep truth from familiar scriptures. It’s not God’s plan that only the deep theologians can preach the Word and minister to people. For the deep and mature, there are the Joseph Princes of this world to minister to them. To those who crave simplicity, a simple messenger like Joel is there for them. That’s the beauty of our God. Trying to delegitimize one group of ministers by calling them motivational speakers is completely unwarranted. And interesting that you’d complain that Joel is preaching about success, while raising Joseph Prince as different. First, Joel’s message is about Hope (even “his” Bible is called Hope for Today Bible) not simply success. He gives hope to the hopeless. And this could be people in need of success in their finances or on their jobs. But it also includes people who are burdened by shame, guilt, marital issues, health problems, relationship issues, including relationship with God. Second, I listen to Prince fairly often and I’m looking at his book, “Unmerited Favor” as I type. I’d say that Prince preaches about success more than Joel, including financial success. For one, Prince has messages on tithes. I have listened to Joel for about 10 years now and have scores, if not hundreds of his messages. Not ONE of them teaches tithing. Now, I’m not complaining that Prince preaches about success. I need every Success message I can find. And some of you that are successful have scant idea what people in bondage to lack, rejection, dejection and the like are going through. Such people need the Jesus of the Bible, who fed the people spiritually and met their physical needs. Not make them feel terrible for seeking help to meet their basic needs. Finally, so Joseph Prince’s message “is not about a better here and now but a glorious new dawn when Christ returns”?

^^

My brother, I wouldn't be too quick to haul accusations of lying. Especially when the only falsehood here so far has emanated from your corner. First, you claim that Joel Osteen said he has 16 Thousand gays in his church. I have a simple challenge for you: provide just ONE authenticated source that shows Joel Osteen said that and I'll donate $1,000 to any charity of your choice in Nigeria or in the U.S. On the other hand, if you cannot show it within one week, I expect you to retract that false allegation and perhaps apologize to the forum. Second, you suggest I may not have listened to Pastor Muoka. Well, I have - in person (live), on the internet and through his DVDs here at home. And I know that he lists sins and asks evil people not to put money in the offering. But that's not necessarily his teaching on prosperity. It is his teaching on Holiness. When it comes to what a person living a holy life should do to experience God's prosperity, i.e., his prosperity teaching, I see no significant difference between him and Joel. To make it easy, share with us what your church believes about prosperity and I'll compare it with Joel believes so that everyone can see if there is a difference. Third, you seem to suggest that Joel is against holiness. Rubbish. Joel has lived a far purer life than possibly you and any leader in your church. He was raised a pastor's kid and never strayed - of course not saying he has lived a perfect life. On that same CNN you refer to, he and his wife answered the anchor's question that they never kissed anybody in their life, indicating that they never slept with anybody else either. Why do you think he kept himself pure in his youth and in marriage, if not the fact that he was riased to value a holy life? If he and his parents prospered while he lived that way, why do you think he'd encouarage people to live differently? I've seen different pastors in his church preaching to teenagers about keeping themselves sexually pure. I've heard Joel preach against ungodly gain, such as cheating on your taxes or keeping an over-payment made to you by mistake and claiming God has blessed you.

As I told you earlier, your accusation is founded on ignorance.

Candour: @the bolded ,i must agree with you. Most of our modern pentecostal preachers are motivational speakers and nothing more. While you can see that they evidently succeed in motivating their members to higher achievements(something Deepak Chopra, Iyanla Vanzant etc also do nicely), they add little or nothing to their spiritual growth. So we have our Church buildings filled on sunday mornings but no decrease in the crimes and moral decadence of the society. Testimonies of one breakthrough or the other are printed and spread through mass mobilisation, an activity they erroneously tag 'evangelism' asking people to come receive their miracle with no effort to introduce them properly to the giver of that miracle.

They won't be out of business anytime soon as long as we have hopelessness and despondency in the land but i wish they'll be honest enough to stick to their motivational messages and leave the gospel stewardship to those who are really entrusted with it. The message of the cross is far greater than bling bling and jeeps.

I have read some Joel Osteen books infact i have 'It's your time' here with me but i dont delude myself thinking i'll get closer to Christ reading it. There is very little difference between it and Deepak Chopra's 'why is God laughing' and Chopra isn't a Christian.

Though motivational messages have their place, they'll never take the place of the gospel and we should learn to separate them so we don't fall into error.

Motivation and motivational messages are part of Christianity and part of any minister's calling. Jesus motivated people. Paul lifted people through his messages. You come out of the presence of God and the presence of those who have been with God and feel relieved and refreshed. There are times you feel burdened by all the devil is throwing at you and all you need is an uplifting message. Just as Joel Osteen may not have drawn you closer to God, others have a different testimony. I was reading one guy on the internet the other day, who didn't seem to be a christian, say that since he started listening to Joel, he has been reading his Bible everyday. The first time I stepped into his church, I felt the presence of God so much, I told that to a friend in another part of the world almost immediately. Every minister has his own calling. Let's do our best to fulfill our calling instead of trying to fit everybody into our mould. I agree with you on one point though: preachers and christians need to do a better job of living a prayerful life and teaching the importance of spending time with God (not just because we want anything). That's where the power lies. And that's the difference between the church of old and today. That's why even those that are not preaching motivation or prosperity are not that much better in transforming anybody's lives. Otherwise, we'd be seeing and hearing of such results. Or perhaps, you have such a list to share?

^^^

You're speaking out of plain ignorance. I've listened to Joel Osteen far many times, apart from being in his church many times, to know that your views of him are incorrect. And for your information, I've listened a lot to Pastor Lazarus Muoka and testimonies from his church, and there is no difference between both preachers beliefs regarding prosperity. If you have any evidence to the contrary, please point it out directly and clearly, instead of long meaningless messages from others.

Damsman10: To reinforce ur point ''GOING TO CHURCH DOESN'T MAKE YOU A CHRISTIAN ANY MORE THAN GOING TO A GARAGE MAKES YOU AN AUTOMOBILE.

What makes you think that statement does not apply to you? How do I know you're a christian? The fact that you go to church and claim to be a chrisian does not make you one. You see, two can play that game. But that helps nobody. Why don't you let the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit minister to you about who on this forum is a christian, instead of relying on fanciful platitudes?

DrummaBoy: So very well said.

Check and see how many times the word dispute was used in Acts of the apostles and see how many times the apostles disputed to uphold the faith. Jeremiah said God has a controversy with the nations. Jude 3 says we should contend earnestly for the faith: my friend, it doesn't mean all this love making that is being advocated on this thread. There is a tough love from God; it is what makes Him a consuming fire. Lastly, look at what Paul said of false prophets in 2 corinthinans 10 and 11. He was not pathing them on the back.

There is a place for a literal curse for anyone who teaches anything not in keeping with the gospel of Jesus Christ, Galatians 1:8,9, wether he is a Christian, angel, demon or otherwise.

We are simply doing our job of propagating and preserving the gospel of our Lord.

Can you show us where in Acts people were having the kind of un-Christlike disputes that you engage in and promote here? As young and immature as the church in Acts was, you don't find this level of unchristian conduct that we are seeing here from supposedly mature christians. When Paul confronted Peter for his error, he did nothing with hatred. He did not curse him. There was no lack of love. And they did not become enemies afterwards. Here, you guys are treating fellow christians as enemies. And doing so proudly. By procliaming that they are not even christians in the first place. I just read the Gal. 1:8-9 that you referenced in 4 versions (NIV, NASB, KJV and AMP). First of all, the focus is on a different gospel, not a disagreement on an ISSUE. In fact, the people that are preaching a different gospel are more likely those that deny the deity of Jesus. But you embrace those. More importantly, not one of these versions mentions that you should be the one cursing those who preach a different gospel. Ok, I believe some of the things you write here are wrong and hypocritical. Can I term them a different gospel and curse you now?

Pastor Kun: The fact that one labels himself a christian does not automatically make him a true follower of christ. The bible warns us to be wary of wolves in sheeps clothing and expose false teachers/teachings. There is no way to do it nicely, you have to call a spade a spade. That said the Pharisees contrary to your assertion up there, were not only Jesus fellow believers they were the religious leaders of the religion Jesus practised only problem is that they were mostly hypocrites just like a lot of our religious leaders today and Jesus rebuked them very sharply. That said, another point to note is that Jesus did not discriminate btw his followers and others. So if I see a fellow christian falling out of line I am not supposed to cover up for him but rather I should rebuke him and call him to order like Paul did to Peter.

Jesus came to introduce a new way of life, a new order, a new message called the message of Grace. This new order we now call Christianity. The Pharisees did not belong to that order. In fact, they (including Saul of Tarsus) fought those trying to belong to that Way. Saying that Jesus and the Parisees shared a common faith is technically accurate but misleading. It's like somebody telling you that Ojukwu fought the civil war against people different from his own. And you respond that at the time Ojukwu was fighting, he was a Nigerian and aso were those on the other side of the war. That does not make sense in the context of the discussion, because Ojukwu did not see himself as Nigerian at that point. Jesus knew He was different. He made clear to His disciples that the Way He was introducing was different. It's interesting to see you defend the law and Judaism (the religion of the Pharisees) as the same as Christianity because you want to continue in your ungodly behavior while what you do almost daily here is to argue that Christianity is different from Judaism (Levitical priesthood, etc). Also, your charge that people are not christians here and that gives you a license to attack them is baseless. If the Holy Spirit is working in you, it'll be clear in your spirit that the forumites you're attacking are fellow christians. Hiding under the label of falsity to give yourself a license to hate (which Jesus called murder) is wrong. Amend your ways.

Pastor Kun: ^^^
Jesus not only insulted your type by calling them white washed sepulchres, he also flogged them for turn the house of God into a business venture like you and your cohorts have been trying to do.

The pharisees were not Jesus' fellow believers. Put differently,it's like you dealing with a non-christian. But here you're dealing with fellow christians. Jesus never encouraged such behavior within the family. Instead, He said the evidence of our passing from death to life is if we have LOVE for the BRETHREN. love is an action word. Show love to your brethren, even when you disagree with them. I know that once in a while, we 'lose' it and speak angrily to other christians. But that should not be a consistent manner of relating to the brethren. In fact, the Holy Spirit would minister to your spirit when you cross the line, if you care to heed His voice.

DrummaBoy: With all this cherished liberty of yours, why are you denying another of his liberty:

If you have the liberty to open a thread like this, anyone has the same liberty to make their own opinion known on it.



When you do the same it is not religious e-wars or babbling; until someone else does it. I shouldn't comment? abi? You are the one that makes the rules and break them at the same time. No one must comment; no one must make thier own opinion known except the most "holy" Bidam. Leave the state of my heart alone and learn to be more concerned about how yours is before God.



My opinion about you and your clique has been clear as noon day from day one I met you guyz on this forum. I was restrained from joining issues with you on the convention threads because those are not the avenues for it. But here is a good time for it. I am ready for you!



This thread is not about Paul's appeal for support for ministers, this thread is about sowing seeds. Arm twisting God to bless man. Sowing seeds of money and for which ministers will be the chief beneficiaries. Check the whole collections made in the NT, starting from the time money were laid at the apostles feet to Paul raising collection for the needy in Jerusalem, it was all to meet people's needs. Today, it is how to enrich those who are already rich from collecting fraudulent tithes.



You know one of the blessings these men who teach the nonsense you put up there in the name of an OP have is that no one is there to challenge what they preach. But you and OLAADEGBU cannot come to this forum and put up this same nonsense. You will have people who will challenge you. And we would continue to challenge you, showing you the true purpose of God in our lives today, until you run out of business! Just in case you didn't see my second post, here it is:

My brother, the level of bile and bitterness that you and some of your co-travelers exhibit against fellow believers (that hold a diferent view on "prosperity" or related issues) is worrisome. Y'all are about showing love and grace and not being legalistic. But that preachment ends when you meet some group of christians that disagree with you. How about showing them grace in deed, not just in words? I think some of you need grace more than those you're preaching it to.

The level of ignorance around these quarters is shockingly nauseating. Copeland is not opposed to medicine, and with his wife even have a personal physician, Dr. Colbert. The opposition to vaccines because of concern with autism is not a general opposition to vaccination nor is it a "christian" opposition. Google it and find more about it. Science seems to debunk it, but that's not a reason to link it to Christianity. People are entitled to a healthy skepticism, until convinced otherwise. Even science encourages that.

christemmbassey: my bros, eh eh eh. Well no mind me o, but seriously, tithe is one of d foothold of satan in d church today, appart from d truth dat tithe was effectively abolished by d priesthood of Jesus, u may b sincere, but i tell u, many are commiting more attrocities bc of tithe, they use tithe to clean their conscience, they feel as long as God don collect im share i'm free from dat sinful act dat i got d money from, eg, d army man who stole 150ml n gave sm of it to winners chapel. Remove TITHE, me n u na real bros, as for malaria, its nt ur portion n Jesus name. Bless u.

My brother, you may be against tithe for good reason, but the ones you have above do not qualify. If you remove tithes, people would still seek to cleanse their sins through offerings. Catholics do not pay tithes. But check out the same practice you denounce and you'll find it in the Catholic Church, including people building churches or parsonages with questionable money. And the Army man you mentioned did not pay any tithes. He took 130 million or 150 million and gave about 11 million Naira. That's not a tithe!

DrummaBoy: Ok, I take up the challenge. I took up the time to write this; pls read:

MY POSITION ON KENNETH HAGIN AND THE WORD OF FAITH MOVEMENT

The nairaland.com religious forum is supposed to be a public religious discussion internet site and it makes some sense that if we shall be discussing Christian doctrine we find a common ground to discuss from. For us Christians this is not difficult to do as we have the bible that most churches take as final authority on issues concerning our faith. That is why if the OP brought a video discussing the excesses of the Word of Faith movement I would expect that we use this bible to speak both for or against it. If however we find some folks come here and begin to make insinuations that are almost equating Hagin’s books with the bible, we must resist it adamantly. The Spirit of God is dynamic and can use the basest thing possible, which names the Lord Jesus, to bring men to faith in Christ and grant salvation ultimately. This does not mean that such means are scriptural and a time comes when He, the Spirit of Truth, comes to restore order to such a means. Such is the case with the Word of Faith movement – God used it for a time to bring about His purpose but the WOF is not necessarily scriptural.

I have not been able to finish one book written by Kenneth Hagin despite the fact that I have come across many. The reason is simple: even before I got to know the errors in the WOF I have always found his books boring. The intellectual basis is very shallow; the books seem more packaged for sales than for edification with the glossy paper backs and so on; the text are replete with scripture quotation so that close to half of what is written in the book is a direct quotation from the bible – I often wonder why not just publish the bible and sell; the books contain little discussion on the subject of matter but so many stories bordering on the author’s experience; and finally, and the most tragic, the fact that Hagin uses his visions to grant authority to his writing – such that no one can question his theology and such that his adherents equate his writing with the bible (the very thing I am attacking on this nairaland thread). Hagin is not the only one guilty of this; virtually all authors from the WOF movement do the same.

Unfortunately these are the literatures that make their way into the Nigerian Christian community and so we have the mess we have today. In the USA, were they operate, their fraudulent activities are well known – but they take advantage of our ignorance and gullibility in Nigeria to make money.

Very few people know that Kenneth Hagin plagiarized a lot of the writing of E W Kenyon. A simple google search on this matter will reveal how Kenyon’s daughter had instituted court cases against Hagin on this matter. But even Kenyon’s ideas are not originally his. Kenyon was influenced by the teaching and ministry of Mary Eddy Baker, the founder of Christian Science. One of the major theologies of Christian Science is healing. This sort of healing comes by exerting the will in a metaphysical manner where the spiritual is used to bring about physical changes – New Age. Traditional protestant churches consider Christian Science as a cult and the exertion of the will to obtain healing (which Hagin calls faith) has been proven to be of the occult. Many New Age teachings talk about how one can use the mind to obtain wealth and health; Kenneth Hagin simply adapted this teachings and added some scriptures out of context to them to have the Word of Faith movement. The Mark 11:24 scripture that some of his adherents thought he wrote is a case in point. On this basis and so many others, Hagin have been proven to be a false prophet.

The WOF movement’s chief error is the prosperity gospel. This gospel is called the health and wealth gospel. The means of achieving this prosperity is via the name it and claim it principles. Many adherents refuse to accept the fact that the prosperity teaching is a gospel because it would bring out the truth to them that what they believe in is another gospel. The easiest litmus test of this gospel is to compare it with the gospel in the New Testament. I have argued in other places on this forum that the gospel God would have the church propagate is the gospel of grace. This gospel was preached primarily by Paul the Apostle, while Jesus and the other apostles testified to it. Jesus did not preach the gospel of grace exclusively (and that is why I think we should all give Shdemidemi the opportunity to explain to us the gospel of the Kingdom which he claims Jesus preached) because he was born under the law and was subject to the law. He however lent credence to this gospel of grace in many instances when he made it clear that man was not made for the law; but the law was made for man – and so the Pharisees preoccupation with the letter of the law and refusing to submit to the Spirit of it was in direct conflict with God’s will. So we must compare the WOF teaching or the prosperity gospel with the gospel of grace to know whether it really is a gospel we should believe or another gospel that Paul said the church was ever in danger of being infiltrated with.

In spite of what I have written, my Pastor here in Ibadan, Pastor Sola Kolade of the Vine Branch Church, Mokola, is a Hagin disciple. But his story is worth hearing. Pastor Sola started ministering after graduating in Kano and he said he preached mostly Faith, following Hagin of course. He told us that one day he felt God told him that the bible contains much more than faith and that he was to teach the whole counsel of God. From that day he began to teach everything the bible teaches but he still teaches faith when he is led to. My point: a definition of heresy is making something major that the bible does not. Paul said in the end we will have Faith, Hope and Love; but the greatest of them is Love. The WOF will have us believe the greatest is Faith. I still attend the church but I continually find myself in conflict with the practices and doctrine there because when Faith is believed and taught the way Hagin does, it would lead inevitably to men setting their hearts on things below instead of above as Paul calls us to in Colosians 3:1. As for why I have not left the church – well, I am trusting God for his leading on that.

I am not an authority in preaching against Hagin; I just don’t read his works or care much about his life and ministry because of all I see around me. The excesses of so many Nigerian pastors can be traced directly to this same Hagin man and it is very distressing to behold. However, there are others who have written volumes on the WOF movement that we can find their works to read; I will endeavor to find some of these literatures and post them here. But to respond to Bidam query that do I have a ministry of condemnation; i say I don’t. However, a balanced reading of the New Testament will reveal that God will have us to both propagate his gospel and to preserve it: propagate it to the unbelieving and to build the church. Also, to preserve it from heresies and errors. Any man of God who is worth his salt that does not do both is probably guilty of one of them. So I hear some say we should not criticize these men (one even said we would not last two years – nonsense). Truth is if you are sure of the gospel you are propagating you would not be afraid of being held accountable via criticism; neither will you shy away from criticizing those you think are speaking contrary to it. The Nigerian church is in danger of being corrupted by two major heretical teachings: the prosperity gospel and the holiness movement. The former through their emphasis on the physical - blessings, health and wealth; the latter through their legalism. We must contend earnestly against all this for the truth that was once delivered to the saints of God (Jude 3).

I really do not have time to waste on you guys. So the basis of judging the quality of Christian writing is whether or not it is intellectual? And I guess you consider yourself and your writings as intellectual? You obviously need a dictionary. Again, if any of you is up to the challenge, meet it. If not, let it rest. That's the honorable thing to do. Everything else is hot air.

^^

Idolize ke.

Interesting you're seeking support and solidarity from WOF - when it suits you!

DrummaBoy: And Hagin has become holy scriptures... smhl

It is no wonder Bidam and others come here and spew the rubbish they believe; it is Hagin that is influencing all of that.

Nonsense!

My brother, I think you can do much better than that. Somebody opened a thread about Hagin and suddenly you do not want us to talk about him? You talk about "rubbish" and "nonsense" but you've given opportunity for the umpteenth time to spell out this rubbish and not one of you have been able to do so. All I need is "Hagin said X in p. 85 of Y Book and that is scripturally unsound" and we'll take it from there. I believe I have most of Hagin's books in my study or around here. But I promise that if the book you're quoting from is not here, I'll endeavor to order it without delay.

So after many pages and wasted hours, not one person can still point ONE error in HAGIN's message? And here we have people that are quick to judge. Lord have mercy.

Bidam: “We shall, as we ripen in grace, have greater sweetness towards our fellow Christians. Bitter-spirited Christians may know a great deal, but they are immature. Those who are quick to censure may be very acute in judgment, but they are as yet very immature in heart. He who grows in grace remembers that he is but dust, and he therefore does not expect his fellow Christians to be anything more; he overlooks ten thousand of their faults, because he knows his God overlooks twenty thousand in his own case. He does not expect perfection in the creature, and, therefore, he is not disappointed when he does not find it. ... I know we who are young beginners in grace think ourselves qualified to reform the whole Christian church. We drag her before us, and condemn her straightway; but when our virtues become more mature, I trust we shall not be more tolerant of evil, but we shall be more tolerant of infirmity, more hopeful for the people of God, and certainly less arrogant in our criticisms.”
― Charles H. Spurgeon, Spurgeon's Sermons Vol. 1-10

My brother, thank you for this beautiful quote. Problem is that the critics are very clever. What they do first is lie to themselves and lie to others that WOFers are not even christians. That way, they have free rein to assault it, showing no love to their brethren, while fooling themselves that they're doing the work of God. How do I know? Because in their unguarded moments, you hear stuff like: "as terrible as WOF is, I can worship in a WOF church, if . . . ." If they truly belive the crap they peddle against WOF, they cannot even consider worshipping there for a second. Another trick is to drop every sense of logic. If a man's followers are working in excess, the man is to blame. Following that logic, the law lecturer is to blame for the former student who becomes an unethical prosecutor or civil litigator. After all, these people had no criminal history until they attended law school! Apostle Paul is to blame for early christians turning grace into licentiousness. Etc. Etc. Third, they shamelessly lie agasint the WOF message. If the message is so terrible, why add lies to crucify it? Fourth, they make it appear that WOF is behind every problem in the church. WOF is probably less than 1% of the worldwide Church. If 99% of believers were without greed, selfishness and all the things they accuse WOF of, why are we not hearing from non-christians about how good christians are, with the tiny exception of this little group called WOF? Finally, a thread like this would have been a good forum to point out specific teachings of Hagin, in particular, that are wrong. After several days and direct pleas, not one of them has been able to do so. Instead, they waste their time and ours with inane generalities like poisons and parables. The consolation is that nobody outside their pitiful crowd seems to be convinced or persuaded by their shenanigans.

frosbel: ^^

I agree with your post bro, but exposing the unfruitful works of darkness and especially false damnable doctrines, does not count as bitterness.

To keep quiet when the poison is being prepared for the spiritual slaughter of our brothers and sisters is next to a crime against humanity.

The main objective for all believers is the kingdom of GOD and through much tribulation we will enter into it, not through the sweet coated, ear friendly doctrines of demons being perpetuated in many so called Christian circles.

Remember Jim Jones !

Very funny. The truth is that you are accused of peddling false doctrines too. So, everything you accuse them of applies to you too. Difference is that while you are receiving your assaults directly, the people you are attacking do not know that any of you exists. That must be painful, seeing that some of you actually think you have any significance and that your words are affecting anything about WOF. Some of the accusers have been at this game for upwards of 2 decades, going from site to site, place to place, railing against WOF. Yet, instead of their predictions of WOF imploding, it is exploding! Alleluia!!

frosbel: Mate, your statement does not change the fact that you are following after false prophets and false teachers, you need to come back to the bible.

You do not need to travel for miles to get your healing, except of course your prayers are not working, then you need to check up.

The WOLF movement is dangerous for your health.

Obviously, you know next to nothing about WOF, your claims to the contrary notwithstanding. WOF emphasizes praying and believing for yourself. You heard the charge about WOF and confession. Who do you think makes that confession of healing? The person that needs healing or the evangelist on the crusade ground? Few months after getting saved, I went to this brother who was a leader of a WOF fellowship and asked him to pray for me, as I had a fever (malaria?). Instead of praying for me, the guy gave me verses of scripture to read and believe on healing. I was a babe! Now, I concede that some WOFers depend on their pastors to an unhealthy extent. But you can find that in virtually in non-WOF churches too. So, why focus on WOF?

Did I read you right that a person that needs healing should pray for his healing and expect to be healed and if it does not happen, something is wrong with the sick person? Imagine if a WOFer said that. Some people here would have been up in arms and unfold pages of writing about WOF leaders and their relatives that did not get healed. And you’d join them. That’s what I find unfortunate. As Bro. Hagin would say, it’d be funny if it wasn’t so pathetic.

teeo: Let me hint you about a sermon i heard this sunday, the pastor was saying all the right things until he got to a point where he said the following comments. i cant remember exactly how he said it but let me paraphrase.

You as members are to be a blessing to your pastor, God has said it the tithes should be brought into the house of God. Some of you would listen to people say all sort of things about your pastors who have private jets, it is not your business, it doesnt concern you if your pastor owns a private jet. Your business is to be a blessing to him and when God blesses you, you can choose to do what you like with yours.
He continued, you are not to take your tithe and give to the poor, it is for the church where you are being blessed, God has a protocol(and am like wtf), his protocol fo beggers is alms. You cannot be blessed by your pastor the same way another who writes a cheque for him is blessed

The whole of this part went through my ears and came out the other way. I was still blessed by the remaining sermon. Everybody adds a little personality to what they preach as long as it isnt what i know is not a commandment of God, i am not compelled to act on it. I believe in faith and the Living word of faith, simple but no pastor is going to corner me into giving anyhow.

My brother, you're a true child of God! What you did is exactly what I do. And that was exactly what Hagin continually encouraged.

^^
Refutal? Disclaimer? The brother is still maintaining the position till today! He only walked back the part about pre-marital sex for non-engaged people. For engaged people, he believes they can sleep together. And even claims that it is a teaching for mature people only! Yes, the devil was there all along. Question is: why wasn't he mentioned more than a handful of times? More precisely, why didn't we read about those he possessed? None of you has been able to answer the simple question.

Chibuebem: wow! I hope you were blessed exceedingly

My brother, I was abundantly blessed! I got delivered of a vicious attack from the devil. I was reflecting on something Creflo Dollar preached the day before or so while in front of the elevator. Immediately, I experienced the deliverance I needed. I've been free ever since. I didn't even have to pray. Just the Word. And the anointing. Preached by His messenger. I was convinced I'd go back for this year's convention, but other things came up. Will likely attend next year, if Jesus tarries His coming.

^^

God bless you too.

I have no interest in making the thread about you. You’re not that important. But I’ll not stand by while you lie about others. So, your explanation for the lies is rustiness? Then, when they were pointed out, why not acknowledge you may have innocently misrepresented some things? Up till now, you’ve not done such. You can keep on emphasizing flaws. Some of us prefer to focus on the countless numbers of people that have been saved and blessed through Hagin and the WOF movement.

1. Is WOF perfect? No. I encourage people to discuss the scriptures and teachings in love. We all benefit. Iron sharpens iron.

2. WOF teaches confession. I believe many people take it to the excess. I have even criticized that here on this forum. I can see a WOFer confessing for genotype change. I don’t see any serious WOFer confessing that they be changed from man to woman. That’s contrary to WOF teachings. I keep on wondering if you really understood the teachings. First, your faith and confession must be based on the Word of God. Second, you have to believe in your HEART before you expect to see what you confess. For you to give the impression that WOF teaches such extreme crap is what I find upsetting about you. Why can’t you limit your focus to what they really teach, not what you make up?

3. You did the same thing with the definition of faith. So WOF preaches that you should believe God only when it is
convenient? And you can point me to where you read it?

4. Hagin’s salvation story is not spectacular. I’ve read the story of his salvation numerous times. At no point did he claim that he had a dramatic experience. I clearly saw the point he was making: that he was unsaved on a death bed for months, died and went to hell. He came back to life and got saved. Every Christian should rejoice at this story. That’s what as Christians we believe: that sinners go to hell. Instead, you found something there to carp about. The originator of this thread has claimed to have had a miraculous salvation experience. When I read it, I felt happy. Such stories confirm to me that Christianity is real. I did not feel that he was trying to equate himself to Apostle Paul. Same with Hagin’s story. A friend of mine got born again after dreaming of rapture. I didn’t see her as claiming to be special.

5. If you do not believe that people still have visions, that’s OK. Many people outside of WOF would disagree with you.

6. The standard you’ve set for who is a false prophet is scriptural. I hope you’ll apply it to every prophet on earth today, not just Hagin and WOFers. I’m sure not one would pass the test. The good thing is that many things Hagin prophesied about came to pass. I like how all of you set a 100% perfection test for WOFers, but not for yourselves.

7. Jesus appearing to people. So, your point is that Jesus cannot appear to anybody today. What a God you serve, who’s limited by your imaginations. That’s your business.

I am glad you’ve moved on. I’d never encourage somebody to stay with anything that is bad for them. As for me, I got born again in a WOF fellowship. I grew up spiritually in a WOF setting. Applying some WOF teachings, and by His grace, God has taken me to some of the highest places on earth, beyond my imagination. To Him be all the glory.

Wouldn't be it nice if the anti-Haginites here would engage with posts such as the ones being sent by this poster? Yes, identify what you disagree with and let's know why, instead of making empty general statements to gain popularity. And one can see clearly here how Bro. Hagin was insisting on making the Word of God the standard, not spiritual manifestations. Yet, he's accused of saying the opposite. The devil is really out in these end times to overthrow the faith of many.