₦airaland Forum

coogar:
hare-brained and yet this lummox cannot even use the quote button to reply like intellectuals do.
how ironic.

stung? because i have no time to carefully fine-comb your baseless stats.
ma hands are tied tonight - if i start paying attention to your heap of trumpery - your folly shall be exposed.

hehehe - you are the joke!
keep laughing at your own idiocy.

yet more fuckery for a supposed intellectual.
listen very well this time cos i know your brain processes information at snail-speed.
i said only nigerians complain about tithing and they do so by denigrating their pastors and accusing them of stealing tithes.

you then foolishly stated americans do it as well.
i have asked you more than 5 times to show me where americans have accused a pastor(without proof) of stealing funds and you have been speaking in tongues since then bed hopping from one spineless comment to another.
did you pass out from any citadel of learning at all?

that is if you have ever touched a credit card before with your leprous hand in your pathetic sad life.
see his mouth like credit card. the mongolian airhead probably thinks credit cards just work without a billing address to match the details. the way you have been illogical and misconducted with your vacuous reasoning - it is safe to assume you are just a wannabe. the tool might actually be slapping mosquitoes on one of those dinghy streets of ojuelegba -

just when i thought internet usage was banned in psychiatric homes in lagos - this lunkhead has just broken from his shackles.

Is that your new line of tomfoolery - I'm technologically behind? Isn't that interesting that even with my low-tech skills, I was able to find and post information that debunked your nonsensical assertion. You don't have time to cross-check what I posted, but you've been posting virtually non-stop for the past 7 hours.

I have provided an example of Americans complaining about tithes and pastors. Read the book. My offer still stands.

Never claimed to be an intellectual. I need not make such claims to an idiot. I know who I am.

coogar:
this is one moronic way to debate - where is the proof?

lemme understand this. . . . . . .china have executed 60 nigerian men for drug trafficking. in other words, breeze5000 is a drug mule. the proof is staring in my face since breeze5000 is nigerian and nigerian males are all drug traffickers.

that is the way the above post sounds. like i keep repeating - each case should be considered individually. just because some pastors are criminals should not convict the others. you have no proof but hollow sound bites. it's a shame that your supposed intelligence has no spine but conjectures and rumours.


you are a consummate simpleton!

you are a cretin of diverse proportions.
the poor in america is like a middle-class in nigeria but he's still poor in america where he's expected to pay the tithes.
if he was paying his tithe in nigeria, then you have a point but he's tithing in america(where he sees himself as a poor person)

yet more asinine comments from a vermin.
of course, the average american live on $1per day like nigerians. 200 people share one flat like they do in lagos.
their buses are packed. 49 sitting, 99 standing. america is ruined with famine, drought, malaria, hiv, etc like nigeria.
your moral and intellectual compass is so screwed up i doubt you can find your way to your study room - bloody irritant!

you were still a spermatozoon when i started visiting the states.

of course, i have to visit every country to know the time difference is not the same. i have to visit every country to know different countries have their own currency, etc.
and yet when they ask graduates to raise their hands up in the society - you will raise your hands up not knowing you are a quarter-baked graduate whose intelligence quotient is lower than your shoe size in inches.

Like I said, keep the entertainment coming! Would not have believed we still have such idiots around until today. Do you have DVDs or CDs of your antics?

There's solid documentation of the number of countries in the world, currencies, flags, etc. Where is your documentation for the brainless assertion that people in other countries do not complain about tithing?

Nobody said that the poor in America are not better than the poor in Nigeria generally. But that's only general. In particular cases, some poor in America are poorer than the poor in Nigeria. Your references to crowded buses, etc showyour below-zero level of reasoning.

"you are a tool and i have my reasons for saying so.
firstly, the word poor is relative - a poor man in america can still afford the basic necessities of life and he is almost equivalent to the middle-class in nigeria. i don't see how you think the word poor in america and nigeria means the same thing in terms of what they can both afford.
i detest half-witted crooks but yours is more detestable because you should know better."

What expression of illogic and incoherence!

Shouldn't it be the other way round? If the poor in America are almost like the middle class in Nigeria, shouldn't they be in a better position to pay tithes than the poor in Nigeria? So, why claim that some christians in America are not paying tithes because they are poor, when by your baseless assertion they're not truly poor?

Oh, btw, your claim is false again. There are many poor people in America that are poorer than the poor in Nigeria. Saying that the poor in America is almost equivalent to the middle class in Nigeria is complete rubbish. And persuades me that you cannot even find the US on a map, much less getting a visa to visit.


And my earlier question remains: how many countries have you visited (to know that it's only in Nigeria that people complain about tithing . . . .)?

"you cannot have it both ways. . . . .if you are correcting my assertion, then you are backing the touts on this thread who think paying tithes is evil, irresponsible and a waste of time. your moronic diligence to even go on the net to dig up a pitiful link that only 6% americans pay tithes show how spiritually-corrupt you are. it's not by force. . . .i don't think churches charge gate fees in nigeria. . . .if they bring the offering bag to you, just pass it on - you won't be arrested for it. what i will not have you do is to covet another man's fortunes. if you feel aggrieved, convert your father's living room into a church and collect tithes/offering."

Hey, slow down! You may be hare-brained, but you need not make that so obvious.

I can see you’re really stung by my debunking your baselessly false claim that it’s only in Nigeria that people complain about tithes. You’re the type that because they managed to visit Ethiopia a few years ago, bamboozle people in Nigeria with claims about what happens in foreign countries that they know next to nothing about. Sorry, wrong forum and timing!

I know I’m basically wasting time instructing you, but I’m enjoying the amusement value. Your comments evidence a staggering ignorance and simplicity. Here’s a guy that professes interest in exclusive conversation with intellectuals when he’s so poorly educated and largely unexposed.

Hardly anybody who has successfully gone through a thorough graduate program in a real university will make such an asinine claim that ‘only Nigerians complain about tithes (on the ground that the pastors misuse the money). Because such graduate or even student would know that (1) he cannot prove the assertion, having not been to all the countries in the world nor in possession of any decent study that says the same, and (2) the claim can easily be disproven, even by pointing to just one country that shows the contrary.

To disprove it, here it is – this time read s-l-o-w-l-y:

1) In the US, vast majority of Christians do not pay tithes.
2) One can assume that they do not pay because they have one complaint or another about tithing. But we need not rely on assumption. We have the evidence published on the internet, at least.
3) Some of these complaints relate to how pastors use (or misuse) the money. For a sample, see a book published recently on that: “What Your Pastor Didn’t Tell You About The Prosperity Message” by Leah L. Davis, available here - http://leahldavis.com/main/

If you cannot afford one or have no accessible credit card, let me know and I can send you a copy at my expense. That’s worth it for the free entertainment you’ve provided. Even your insults are hilariously unimaginative. Keep the amusement going. You're an answer to prayer!

garyarnold:
Pastors who teach and collect the tithe show lack of faith that God will take care of His Church. They put their faith in man rather than God.

The pastor will say give your tenth and put your trust in God that He will provide your needs. You need to tell the pastor to stop asking for money, and for him to put his trust in God that God will provide for his needs.

In the United States, tithing is a very hot topic. Many pastors have stopped teaching this false doctrine, and many ministers have left their church because of this false teaching. I have personally met with several pastors to discuss this topic. One, who has a Ph.D. in theology, told me that he knew tithing is not for Christians, BUT he said he has to make his congregation believe that it is required as he is afraid that they wouldn't give enough to keep the doors open. Most of the others STOPPED teaching tithing after they did their own research.

NO CHRISTIAN CHURCH taught anyone to tithe on their income until the 1800s.

The New Testament teaches generous, sacrificial giving, from the heart, according to our means. For some, $1 might be a sacrifice, while for others, even giving 50% of their income might not induce a sacrifice. In the Old Testament, ONLY the farmers tithed, and it was equal percentage (a tenth). The New Testament teaches the principle of equal sacrifice instead of equal percentage. Equal sacrifice is much harder to achieve, if not impossible, than giving ten percent.

And some guy that clearly does not know his left from his right was here trying to make another false claim that American christians do not complain about tithing. Time is past when people can make foolish claims and think they'll stand. We're in the information age now.

dare2think:
@ Cooger

" The Tithes belong to the welfare of the pastor and the Church"


Says who?



By the way, the ability to conjure insults does not make you cool or gives you an articulated leverage in debates.


It only makes you sound very immature.

Sure, it makes him sound and appear immature and foolish. The higher you get in life, the more sensitive and considerate you're likely to be to your perceived juniors or inferiors. With his attitude, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't pass a test to be hired as my admin assistant.

coogar:
and i think you are the ignoramus with the poorest comprehension skill on this planet. . . . .
it's one thing not to tithe - as a result of not having or not even interested in going to church. . . . .it's another thing to come on a forum and start complaining. there's a universe of difference between the 2 categories but i know your comprehension skill is so poor to grasp this.
that only 6% of american christians pay their tithes do not mean the other 94% complain like rhesus monkeys - something you are obviously doing here. a pastor leaves his job full-time to teach you the morals and the value of life and you think it should be free services?

and the moronic link you posted is just a collection of all articles related to tithing. i have not seen where anyone has accused any pastor of stealing church funds to enrich himself like you are doing on these pages.
these days, i always take my time to debate with intellectuals. . . .not touts with poor comprehension skill who cannot discern the simple difference between not tithing and moaning like a slave about pastors who cruise chelsea tractors.

please shut up with your bigotry nonsense.

evidently? you are an auditor and you looked into your pastor's account to notice the misappropriation of funds? the tithes belong to the welfare of the pastor and the church. do not think you are entitled to a lexus jeep from the tithes because your pastor drives one from the tithes.

Smart man,

I understood your point perfectly. If Americans do not pay tithes, it does not occur to you one bit that some of them would be out of an unwillingness to do so – not because they’re poor. Isn’t it silly to assume that American Christians refuse to tithe because they are poor, when the vast majority of them are richer than Nigerian Christians including jokes like you that come here to make empty noises.

Evidently, you know why American christians do not tithe, even though you probably have not met any. Have you ever visited or lived in the US or been to any US church? If you are not as idiotic as you sound, you’d check through the net and see Americans complain a lot about tithing. And if you step into some American churches, you’d hear the pastors addressing some of these complaints. But typical Nigerian that you are, you can claim to be an intellectual with nothing to back it up. Barely literate intellectual!

And I never complained about tithing. I only corrected your inaccurate assertion.

coogar:
trust a typical nigerian to respond the way i would expect a mutant herbivore to do on matters like this.
so because i believe tithes should be paid makes me a pastor/aspiring pastor? i shake my head at your sheer ignorance.

and yet more sheer ignorance.

in germany, the government actually deduct 8-9%(depending on which federal state you dwell) of your earnings every month and pay it directly into the church coffers. church taxes are collected for catholic and protestants by the german government.
grab a book and read if you cannot travel!

I think you’re the one writing out of ignorance. You have no basis for your claim that it is only in Nigeria that Christians complain about tithing. How many countries have you been to and how many materials have you read about Christians in other countries? In the US, for instance, only a small portion – roughly 6% - of American Christians pay their tithes. Everybody should feel free to pay their tithes. But basing tithing on false premises or inaccurate claims does nobody any good.

For those interested in statistics on tithing in America, this link may help.

http://library.generousgiving.org/page.asp?sec=28&page=223

Joagbaje:
Was Abraham a salary earner? .

I'm a little confused. The question was about income and your response was about salary. Are you saying that salary is the only source or type of income?

Joagbaje:
so was Abraham a Jew? . The mistake you guys make is this idea of making tithing a Jewish affair. Tithes and offerings preceded the emergence of the Jewish nation. Don't forget that. Abraham and people of his day didnt tithe according o Jewish law. You can't judge a christian by the Jewish standard. If you dint believe in tithing , you shouldn't believe in offerings as well . Because they are both based on the same spiritual principle. Andvif you say we should neither give offerings too. We will like to know which God you serve.

Again, if you don'd mind, I'm asking once more: what is this spiritual principle that tithing is based on?

Yeah, I missed the fact that Raji Fashola reads a devotional before he gets up from bed every morning. And Lagosians have the best character in Nigeria, making them deserving of a good governor. The extent Nigerians go to excuse poor leadership is startling. The greatness of Nigeria requires a number of factors including prayers, good citizens, but good leadership is at the top of the pole. I can’t readily think of any society that advanced in modern times without sound leadership. The other day I was listening to how Turkey has been transformed in the past few years by Recep Tayyip Erdogan. Yet in Nigeria, we expect God to come down from Heaven and help us. Pastors that have access to the leaders should tell them the truth, not just pray for them. They should critically evaluate their silly statements about how ministry materials are influencing them. For me, to paraphrase a wise saying, it’s a case of your actions are speaking so loudly I can hardly hear what your mouth is saying.

Image123:
Some David beats up Goliath in some instances, but generally, EMOTION is stronger than REASON. BTW, Jesus overcame His 'emotion' by a surrender to God, a death to self and His own will which was already influenced by His emotion.

I would think it's the other way round, i.e. emotion occasionally beats reason. Otherwise, reason generally dominates emotions. The only people whose emotion is stronger than their reason are people with some form of mental or emotional disorder, such as obsessive compulsive disorder, kleptomania, addictions. For normal people, reason rules everyday, most of the time. The few occasions when emotions rule over reason are usually when reason was suspended on its own, not because it was overpowered by emotion, taking the person to the point where emotion then dominates. E.g., people committing sexual sins. Young man knows he shouldn't be alone with that girl, in a dark room, with nobody around. He convinces himself that nothing would happen. One thing leads to another. He doesn't want to go too far. But he doesn't seem to be able to reason himself out of it. He commits a sin. Well, the problem was that he didn't use reason properly - at the initial stage, not when emotion has taken charge.

Monumental accomplishments have taken place in life by people using their reason, subjecting their emotions to their reason or employing the emotions to serve the end of their reason-engineered endeavor. So, they ignore pain, taunts, etc or embrace joy, etc. Contrast with Nigeria. Where emotions tend to rule - crying (even in church), smiling while suffering, anger at no one in particular, etc. These things may not be bad in themselves, but they shouldn't rule over reason, or use of the brain, if real progress is to be expected. And if God had designed it that they'd dominate reason, and make man work extra hard to get reason on top of them, man's lot would have been far worse.

But Glory be to our Loving God!

^^^ The topic puzzled me too. But I guess he was trying to say we should not be ruled by our feelings.

Joagbaje:
The target is the people mind set. God only give a people the government they deserve. If the people become Godly , the government will change. Because the government is a reflection of the people. It starts with the mind set of people.
So the idea is about the spirit of patriotism . Chinese built china, Koreans built Korea , and Nigeria can only be built by nigerians. The change agent for rewal of minds is the word of God. And a daily devotional is a good instrument to start with . We also distribute free bibles.

We should remember that Christians are points of contact for Gods blessing upon a land. People have been cursing governments all through decades. But that's a mistake . Curses will cripple economy. But through devotional we are made to bless by positive confessions daily. Imagine millions blessing a nation daily. Satan will be resisted.

Proverbs 11:11
11 By the blessing of the upright the city is exalted: but it is overthrown by the mouth of the wicked.

Haven't we seen the changes Going on. Evil is being restrained , there is a wake up call for accountability and nation building. Many action governors are emerging.  I went to ph recently , I lost my way. Development everywhere. Bridges and roads, lagos , Benin, uyo and several places. even people who never painted their houses before began to pAint them. There is a growing consciousness for beautification. We pray for the nation on regular bases .

There is a wake up call.  The church also partner with the government is development by helping out in the prisons,school buses and library and helping out in security by donating, patrol vans , computers, communication equipment, Internet etc to mention few.

Reach out campaign has brought joy and pomp to the celebration of independence again on our street. There is hope for a powerful emerging Nigeria.  We spend time to pray for the nations economy regularly . Our language must change. A christian shouldnt criticise leaders . Our responsibility is intercession.

1 Timothy 2:1-4
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Agree on the bolded. But you also should realize that the government is negatively affecting the quality or character of the people. Nigerians were not always this way, as anybody that was sentient there 30 years ago, or earlier than that, would attest to. When government officials continue to steal the people dry, instead of providing jobs, wouldn't the number of criminals increase? After stealing, they'd come to churches to salve their consciences and give some silly testimonies about how a devotional influenced them, among other syrupy talk. And of course, they receive a loud applause from the people and give a fat donation to the church. The pastor receives it happily, saying that Jesus did not question the sourcces of His offering. Those are the kinds of nonsense that will keep the country in darkness, regardless of the endless number of night vigils, binding and loosing, confessions, etc.

You mention China and Korea built by the Chinese and Koreans. Partly true in the case of Korea (since they had foreign help). But, did you think those countries were built because the citizens were patriotic alone? Do you discount the quality of leadership provided by Deng in China? With ridiculous leaders, such as those currently there, Nigeria is not going anywhere far.

I must commend your mindset. That type of optimism is a necessary ingrediaent for personal, corporate and national success. But we must be careful of taking it to excess. It's the same attitude that has bred self-deception and suffering and smiling.

As to the rest of your post, PH and a pocketful of places are improving all right. But only because Nigeria has been so terrible that even hardly noticeable changes look so monumental. So shameful not too long ago when I was at the PH Int'l Airport and there was even no conveyor belt to move luggage. And this is wonderful? If you want to do a fair comparison, compare PH with a Ghanaian city. That's where leadership is making a bit of progress. Oh I forgot, their leaders also read your devotional.

Not sure where you get the idea that because the Bible says to pray for leaders, it also forbids criticisms and corrective action. The history of the world before the NT, during the NT and after the NT, has shown that people play an important role in holding their leaders accountable. Even the Israelites criticized God's government and asked for a king. If Martin Luther King Jr. had adopted the posture of the Nigerian pastors today, black people would still be eating at the back of the counter, including these Nigerian pastors whenever they were allowed to visit the US. The Pray-Harder Only Campaign, with the occasional "partnership" with the government is OK, but people deceive themselves if they think that's the pathway to Nigeria's greatness.

I wouldn't be too quick to associate with Akunyili's misconceived and unsuccessful re-branding campaign. I also remember spending a little time with her predecessor, Frank Nweke Jr., when he came up with his own image-making campaign. Nigeria does not need all these wasteful efforts at re-branding. Just do what other countries have done - curtail corruption, spend money on infrastructure, speed up manufacturing, etc - and your brand will skyrocket. No church should be supporting government officials when they utter all this nonsense, while innocent Nigerians continue to die in ill-equipped hospitals and crappy roads due to the incompetence and corruption of these officials. It's good to know that they do read these devotionals, but I'll believe that it is immensely benefiting them when I see it in their conduct. So far their conduct is largely immoral and disgraceful.

Joagbaje:
There can only be an interpretation for scriptures. Stop privatising interpretations.

2 Peter 1:20
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.


I still maintain that this "copy" utterance is carnal. Do you copy the word of God? . There is difference between Inspiration and copy. I can be influenced and inspired by another man. In different ways. If you teach truth and it agrees with my heart . I accept based on the word. Not because Mr A says so. But because the word says so. Anybody can quote truth from scriptures . I will take it because it is in the scriptures like the bereans. For that I don't need to quote a man.

But if I'm quoting a man teaching. Or principles, nuggets ,quotes etc . Of course courtesy demands we make references to such sources. And I do where applicable.

.

Generally agree. For me, it's not even necessary to make reference to the source, unless asked. The point remains that what many Nigerian preachers share (again not necessarily "you" the poster on nairaland) is influenced by foreign sources. Nothing wrong with that. Just do not pretend it was not. And that the Holy Spirit revealed it to you at night. Such pretence makes the members rever the preacher the more and that may be the only motive behind hiding the influence and you even hear people "quoting" those pastors when they're actually quoting the foreign preacher or motivational speaker the pastor borrowed from). Which is the real carnality, not your fixation with the word copy. The private interpretation scripture is irrelevant to the discussion, as you already confirmed my main point - which is influence.

BTW, it could also be the major reason you hardly hear preachers sharing their reading lists.

Joagbaje:
Far from it. It's Yoruba thing. And if you observed , it's mostly among the yorubas. It has nothing to do with the emergence of new churches. It started in the 1940s. The emergence of the White garment churches who had supernatural manifestations and miracles. Nominal christians began to leave the old churches to join the miraculous churches. "the God of orimolade" etc.

As a child in celestial church as far back as the 70s I used to hear such sayings as "Olorun Oschoffa " (God of oschoffa) so let's not use everything to attack innocent men Of God. It is not them that make such claim but the followers. It's a Yoruba thing.

I’m not keen on laying the blame on pastors. It’s more of a congregation thing and that was my focus. The first time I heard it, it was by an Igbo man in a church pastored by another Igbo man. Perhaps, they were influenced by Yorubas around them? Or the two practices (white garment and Pentecostal versions) are independent but related. And I’m pretty sure I’ve heard justification for that practice with a reference to Phil. 4:19.

MANCHUKWU:
The Lord will destroy these false pastors and lies. Garbage for the fire. Show me a man blind from birth and heal his vision. Stop being simple.
Use the brain that God gave, respect the dietary laws, recognise your enemy and stop eating his food, use herbs for healing, [b]get rid of your white flour white sugar etc.[/b]How can a 18 stone woman stand on stage and say she barren, of course because you eat too much meat, you got gout, high blood pressure, you eat pork, you dont keep active what do you expect. When the Lord truly pours out his spirit in the last days then you will truly see miracles, people being brought back from the dead, someone with no legs having his legs grow back, a decapitated man having his head stuck back on, someone who fell off a mountain being healed. do not underestimate the power of HE who made the heavens and the earth. All these churches are just seeking reward the error of Baal. Money and bullshit. Real churches comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable, bring the proud man down low stop being a respecter of persons. I say your church is garbage and God dwelleth not in a temple made with hands. Who will stand up for me against the evil doers and be a living sacrifice, silence, thought so, off to get a happy meal from mcdonalds,

One moment you are against white flour and white sugar and all the bad food and the next moment you're getting a happy meal from MCD! interesting.


As to the original post, I think the incident was an honest mistake. I don't see why anybody would want to do that.

Regarding testimonies following medical examination, what kind of credible tests can a doctor run in a few minutes? I think churches are too eager to receive testimonies and validate their crusades. If people are healed, I don't think it hurts to wait for weeks and months to run all the relevant tests and re-confirm them before testimonies. I really do not understand why a trained physician would lend himself to these instant verifications.

ogajim:
This is a new one, I haven't heard this one before but I will keep my ears open going forward to see if I can pick something up, MOG is the one that pisses me off the most, every believer ought to be able to call him/herself an MOG since Christ died equally for all of us and no one is more"special" than the other.

It is very HARD to tell those "under the influence" otherwise because they believe they are "blessed" because some pastor prayed for them rather than God's mercy. We need to keep them in our prayers.

The practice is based on their spin on this scripture: "But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus." Phil. 4:19.

The point being that Paul said "MY" God, not just God or our God. So, Paul had such a special relationship with God that when people gave to his work, they were likely to receive unlike if they had just given to anybody else. The people making prayers in the name of these ministers believe that these ministers are unique, as evidenced by God's blessings upon their life, so one can acccess similar blessings by going through their God, the God that gave them all that stuff.

Frankly, sometimes, you wonder whether many Nigerian christians are simply retarded.

Joagbaje:
@NLmediator
True


Very funny post. Who is claiming originality. Does Gods word have copyrights. When I quote pastor chris article ,I always acknowledge the source. And when I quote bible ,I didn't claim to write it, I acknowledge the book. Wetin remain?

Where did i make these funny and petty claim of yours? Somebody must be missing something here. And Which preacher I'm I copying?.

It was a generic "you" - not you in particular.

Yes, God's Word does not have any copyright. But not everybody comes up with the same interpretation. If a preacher uses another's interpretation, he doesn't necessarily owe him any acknowledgments or copyright respect, since the other preacher freely received it from God. But what the copying preacher should not do is deny that he received it from the other preacher or indicate that he got it some other way. Also, he should not see reference to the fact that somebody preached the message earlier as a claim that the message could only have originated in a certain country. The printing press was invented by a German. Pointing that out is not asserting German superiority or inferring that Africans couldn't have come up with that or some other invention. The facts do not change.

ogoamaka99:
The BIBLE made a vivid declaration in Hebrew 7:7 “And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.” People who understand this principle do everything to tap into the anointed MOG.

Abraham knew this and gave tithe to Melchizedek in Genesis 14:20 and by reason of that encounter, GOD visited him after. Is it not an irony that SOME sons of perdition and belial in this forum are saying all sort of rubbish against some MOG, while some people are planting seeds of money and expensive vehicles into the lives of these MOG.

And the BIBLE said in 2Chronicles 20:20 “Believe in the Lord your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper.”
And in Hosea 12:13 “And by a prophet the Lord brought Israel out of Egypt, and by a prophet was he preserved.”

The prophets are agents of prosperity, agents of deliverance and agents of preservation etc. The reason why the devil is using the sons of perdition in this forum to say all sort of rubbish against MOG is to ensure that you don’t have encounter with these prophets of GOD. So you need to be persuaded AND PERSONALLY convinced about these MOG and don’t base your actions on the basis of what anybody is saying. Do you know that the testimony of the sons perdition about these MOG are not important, neither the testimony of ogoamaka about these MOG important? But what is important is the testimony of GOD about these MOG and secondly WHAT YOU SAY ABOUT THESE MOG. What opinions do you have about these MOG? The opinions you has about these MOG, are they based on the opinions of the sons of benial and perdition or ARE YOU PERSONALLY CONVINCED ABOUT THESE MOG YOURSELF? Be careful and do not to be deceived by anybody but be persuaded yourself i.e BE PERSONALLY CONVINCED.
DON’T BE DECEIVED

Constantly calling people here sons of perdition because they disagree or demand better explanation, discredits everything you have to say. You can keep your foolishness to yourself. And if you dodn't know that Abraham was already blessed before he met Melchizedeck - and every christian is already blessed today - that's your cup of tea. And coming here to pretend that the thousands of people that give directly to the man of God in Nigeria have car testimonies suggests that your level of honesty needs some additional work.

Joagbaje:
You've just answered yourself.

the wealth of a christian is not by what he has aqcuired . A christian is a channel of blessing to his world. It is carnal to quantify blessing by THINGS.

But the widow's blessing here was physical. You can't say if you give to prophet like the widow did, you'll be blessed as she was, and then turn around to say but the blessings would not be in the form of physical things! No wonder many that give to prophets on the basis of the manipulation of that Scripture, instead of the leading of the Spirit and love, have little or nothing to show for it.

No, I did not answer myself. It was sarcasm.

Giving works. But the idea that every giving multiplies is false. It accords neither with scripture nor common sense.

Joagbaje:
Read the bible for yourself dear. Ministers were called , man of God , prophet , teacher, master. Etc.

Jesus himself was called master , by people of his time . Because that was the way to address leaders. I don't know why you guys just have bad belle for ministers . The fact that paul and Peter address each other by name doesn't mean they were addresses by their followers likewise. Theres difference. Paul himself taught many times about respect for leaders.


1 Thessalonians 5:12-13
12 Dear brothers, honor the officers of your church who work hard among you and warn you against all that is wrong. 13 Think highly of them and give them your wholehearted love because they are straining to help you. And remember, no quarreling among yourselves.


This long Tory. Question, is it wrong to call ministers men of God? Answer = no it is scriptural to call them so. Case closed.

That's your personal bias. I never said I knew more than any person. But I'm glad to share what I know. Of a truth different ministers function at different levels of understanding. That's true. Paul obviously had deeper revelations than Peter and co. It's not a compettition. Peter himself acknowledged it.

That is carnal of you to use such language. Can you copy truth. Truth is truth . Did they write their own bible? We believe and teach what the bible say. Was paul an American ? Or John? . Even smith wiggles worth known as apostle of faith is not an amerrican. Why over exalting American preachers. I think you still have what they call the slave mentality. (not an insult but observation). Those who believe nothing good is in africa. I quote scritptures and not american man dear.

Let who has been "oppressed" by me make that complain.

1. Again, nothing you have said shows that people were "officially" addressed that way. People recognized that they were ministers, men of God, teachers, etc. Doesn't mean that's the way they were officially addressed. Possible exception is Jesus but that's outside the discussion.

2.  Respect and titles are 2 different things. People respect their parents and siblings everyday without using titles. Even in Nigeria. Among non-Africans, people respect their bosses and pastors while addressing them by their names. If your argument is that it is a cultural thing, stick with that and don’t claim it’s Biblical.

3. So unless those you oppress complain, it is not oppression? It can be discussed on its own without anybody coming out to cry.

4.’ Slave mentality’ is another in your bag of marketing tricks. It’s only effective for people at certain levels. Not me.

5. Funny enough, nobody wants to copy America or foreign things more than some of you – from the way you look to the way you speak to the way you organize your things –even when you’ve never lived or worked there. Yet, you have the nerve to think it’s others that have the slave mentality. Harriet Tubman was right after all: that some slaves were unaware they were slaves and that’s why she could not free them.

6. Never said that any truth originated from America. But if you study the law of gravity or the law of relativity and do not acknowledge Newton or Einstein, after reading them and getting the ideas from them, you’ll be treated as an academic fraud. Claiming that the law of relativity is the truth regardless of who says it will not absolve you. Worse still, when you pretend that you discovered the truth by reading the bible when there is every indication you borrowed it from known authors. I’m completely surprised that you’re trying to claim that God actually revealed these truths to you when you clearly got them from others. Nothing wrong in learning from others – I do that all the time -  but my quarrel is pretending this knowledge either originated from you or is peculiar to you when you *know* for sure that’s not true. I consider that dishonest.

7. Worse still, to use the so-called knowledge to put down others or claim 'specialness'.

^^^

You've got some good points there! [But I still think I'm right!!]

[
I would say nobody has received anything remotely resembling that result. Don't mind Jo jare, pastors use this verse to deceive the congregation

[quote][/quote]It's a bit troubling that people quickly use the Elijah-Elisha widows' stories to get people to give, but never report back on testimnies of hose people getting a similar result in terms of speed and content. Yet, these people operated in the OT. We, outside the OT, should even be doing better.

nuella2:
When you give its a principle, it must multiply.

Where do folks get all these fancy ideas from? When you give it must multiply and yet we have poor people in the church who have been giving for donkey years? Oh, I forget they do not have faith. How about those that have faith in the church? If their giving multiplied all the time, wouldn't they all be richer than Carlos Slim by now?

livin:
^^^ and if u r not a "Man of God''?

Excellent question.

Joagbaje:
I don't see any point of argument here. A minister criticises another for being called MAN OF GOD . And I said it is not unscriptural. It is left for individuals what they want to be called. Either it is "brother" hagin o or "pastor" chris or "prophet"tb or "bishop"td jakes.

You were not there to know what brethren call the early apostles. They must have addressed them according to their offices. Paul many times emphasised his apostleship .

In Jesus days , teachers were called. Rabbi, master, etc. Jesus also was addressed as master many times. I don't know know why people are just on the cases of servants of God for condemnation. Is that a message? Let's leave off petty matters.

Is there any place in the bible where people addressed them as "minister" of God?. What we have in the bible is "man of God" .And the funny thing here is that the person criticising MOG here himself is addressed as "BISHOP" what contradiction? The issue with critics is the idea of "I am better than others" yet they don't see the hypocrisy .

Remember, my initial quibble was with your claim that people were addressed “officially” in a particular manner. You have no support for such an outlandish claim. Resorting to ‘you were not there in the Bible days to know what happened’ is a cheap ploy often employed when it’s convenient and quickly discarded when it is not. That is, you start demanding for chapter and verse when it is in your interest and when it’s not, you ask us to accept or be bound by a practice not in the Bible because it “must” have been so. Interesting.

Paul emphasizing his apostleship does not mean people were addressing him, officially or not, as Apostle Paul. Even when he confronted Peter, he referred to him as Cephas, while reporting the incident. If it’s the church today, especially among black people, it would be “I confronted Bishop Peter”. Hagin’s official title was Rev. or Dr. and people also called him Bro. But I’m sure somebody could call him Kenneth and he wouldn’t jump off a window. Imagine that with any Nigerian pastor today. I’m not sure if their wives while mentioning them in church ever omit their title. Even in their absence, people can’t even refer to them without titles. If a high school friend stops by, he can’t call him by his first name as in school days without attracting attention or seeing members around roll their eyes. And you tell me that must have been the case in the Bible because Paul emphasized his apostleship?

I agree with you about critics and “I’m better than you” attitude. But you need to look at the mirror more often because it applies readily to you. An example is your constant reference to “lesser truth” or that churches are operating at the level of their understanding, in a way that drips of “I’m better than you.” BTW, that’s part of why I point out when you’re copying the teachings of American pastors, not because I want to show America is competing with Nigeria. Point being that you can’t go about “oppressing” others with what you copied or establishing your “specialness “with something you know is available outside your circles. That may be good for marketing, but something about it is not right.

Joagbaje:
I don't mean to be critical, but it's possible to drive forward while looking at the mirror . We do it everyday.

The man Who compares himself with others is not wise.

2 Corinthians 10:12
For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

Joagbaje:
so when you use the mirror while switching lanes, does your car still continue going forward or you have to stop each time you look at your mirror?

Talk. . .

The guy said rearview mirror and you're focusing on mirror! Big difference. I think what he meant is that you can't drive for long. It's just like saying if one is doing something wrong, one may not get immediate results, but that 'grace' may not last very long. More directly, I think the poster is making a very important spiritual point: nobody who wants to make progress in christianity and life generally should be focusing on the past. Paul said it in Phil. and Isiaiah also said the same thing - about forgetting the former things and pressing forward. It does not mean that the past is totally irrelevant. Au contraire, it may be a good guide sometimes to help us maintain the right perspective - e.g., to remember God's deliverance.

I agree on the comparison part. It's one of the most foolish things we do as human beings. We need to realize that everybody is running his own race and not competing with us.

The striking thing is that the woman got the right result. Today, many people that respond to that verse do not receive anything remotely resembling that result. Instead, after sowing, they have to spend years confessing and sowing some more. I guess the big difference is hearing God for yourself and obeying, doing or following His instructioons.

Of course, I know that the expression "man of God" is used in the Bible. It's simply descriptive, not ta title. Moreover, I simply disagree that it is the "official" way of addressing ministers in the Bible. As I said, you can't find that as a way of addressing many leading servants of God like Peter, Paul or James. And btw, neither is pastor an official way of addressing anybody in the Bible. People today, especially among Nigerians, are obsessed with title, including "pastor." There's absolutely no reason why a christian cannot be addressed by his name. Yet, it's near-sacrilege to do so in many churches today. While it's more tolerable to accept in the case of senior ministers or resident pastors, I simply find it ridiculous that churches organize a few training sessions for committed members, graduate them after a couple of months, and from that moment everybody is obliged to address them as 'pastor'. Ditto, deacons, etc. Simply doesn't make sense to me.

^^^

official way? Please don't introduce the Nigerian or black man's penchant for titles and recognition into the Bible. I've not seen anywhere Peter, Paul or James was addressed as Men of God, much less officially. It's really sad to see that today you can hardly walk into a church and address anybody by their names. That would be considered disrespectful, even though the young man that went through 6 months of classes in his church and is now a pastoral assistant, is way younger than the person addressing him by name. How ridiculous!

And, I was expecting a response to my question about the spiritual principles upon which tithing is based. Some of us are eager to learn. Also, we expect those who make claims to back them up, just as you admonished the pastor here.

And I'll make out time to watch the videos or at least some of them. I'm happy to hear that they contain some solutions.