@Febup

Please note that "pastor" Joagbaje is himself a "tithes" collector and he uses this medium to try and keep his sheeple under control; so don't be surprised if he twists the Bible and makes all sorts of somersault to defend the tithing scam.

is "pastor" Joagbaje a religious acrobat 

Enigma:

@Febup
Please note that "pastor" Joagbaje is himself a "tithes" collector and he uses this medium to try and keep his sheeple under control; so don't be surprised if he twists the Bible and makes all sorts of somersault to defend the tithing scam.

No wonder his is coming up with his own version of the bible that includes tithes from income 

Febup:

So why did you bring Abram in to this,

Because he was father of faith. And tithing was based on faith principle by men of faith.

God has not even called him when he paid tithes from the booty of war and this was the only time the Bible records that he paid tithes.

That's not true. He was called from Mesopotamia before he got to haran. His known tithe record was paid after his separation from lot. That was manny years after his call.

Joagbaje:

Because he was father of faith. And tithing was based on faith principle by men of faith.
That's not true. He was called from Mesopotamia before he got to haran. His known tithe record was paid after his separation from lot. That was manny years after his call.

His name was Abram when he paid tithes only from the booty of war, but after God changed his name to Abraham there in no record that he ever paid tithes again.

Hebrews 7: 8
8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

Does the above verse mean anything to tithe collectors and tithe payers

yes it does but what does it mean to you?

Joagbaje:

so was Abraham a Jew? . The mistake you guys make is this idea of making tithing a Jewish affair. Tithes and offerings preceded the emergence of the Jewish nation. Don't forget that. Abraham and people of his day didnt tithe according o Jewish law. You can't judge a christian by the Jewish standard. If you dint believe in tithing , you shouldn't believe in offerings as well . Because they are both based on the same spiritual principle. Andvif you say we should neither give offerings too. We will like to know which God you serve.

Again, if you don'd mind, I'm asking once more: what is this spiritual principle that tithing is based on?

Joagbaje:

Was Abraham a salary earner? .

I'm a little confused. The question was about income and your response was about salary. Are you saying that salary is the only source or type of income?

First, let's look at Hebrews 7:8:  And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

And HERE men that die receive tithes - The book of Hebrews was written before the Temple was destroyed.  The Jews continued tithing to the Levitical priesthood right up until the Temple was destroyed; thus, the Levites are the ones referred to as men that die.

But THERE he receiveth them - is referring to Melchizedek. 

Let’s look closely at Abram’s tithe.  First, the goods that Abram gave the tenth from didn’t even belong to Abram:

Genesis 14:21 (KJV) - And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself.

Notice in verse 21 the king of Sodom didn’t ask Abram if he would give back to him the people, but rather said GIVE ME the people and keep the goods for yourself.  The way that is worded indicates that the king of Sodom was claiming that the people and the goods belonged to him, but he offered the goods to Abram.

It would normally have been the custom that the victor owns the spoils, but normally the spoils would have belonged to the enemy.  In this case, Abram was RECOVERING goods belonging to the King of Sodom.

NOTE:  The king of Sodom had an original right both to the persons and to the goods, and it would bear a debate whether Abram’s acquired right by rescue would supersede his title and extinguish it; but, to prevent all quarrels, the king of Sodom makes this fair proposal (v. 21).
--Should the Church Teach Tithing by Dr. Russell Earl Kelly, pages 24-25

Genesis 14:22-24 (KJV)
22And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,
23That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich:
24Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.

Notice in verses 23 and 24 Abram also acknowledges that the goods belonged to the king of Sodom.  But the king of Sodam offered that Abram could keep the goods for himself. Abram declined the offer.  He didn’t want man to take credit for his wealth.  By not accepting any of the goods for himself, Abram was putting all his faith in God to provide for him rather than man.

Therefore, it is clear that both the king of Sodom and Abram acknowledged that the spoils of war did NOT belong to Abram, yet he gave a tenth of the spoils to King Melchizedek.  This would seem that Abram did something wrong, if not even illegal, but Biblical historians agree that it was custom in Abram's day to give the king a tenth of the war spoils.  Had Abram not given the tenth, he would have gone against custom.

Conclusion:  Abram did NOT give a tenth of his income, or his wealth.  Abram gave a tenth of the spoils of war that didn’t belong to him and declined to keep the goods offered to him.  That is NOT an example of tithing for Christians to follow today.  By declining to keep any of the goods for himself, Abram showed his faith that God would provide.  That is the example of faith that Christians should be following.  Furthermore, the law did NOT require a tenth of war spoils to be given, so to say that tithing was before the law and then in the law is not true.  What Abram did was NOT even codified into the later law.

The Bible clearly shows that the tithe ENDED at the cross in the Book of Hebrews.  In the first nine verses of Hebrews 7 the words tenth or tithes appears SEVEN TIMES.  The ONLY place in the Bible, after Calvary, that tithing appears is in Hebrews 7.

Hebrews 7:5 (KJV)  “And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:”

Verse 5 is the first occurrence of the words TITHES, COMMANDMENT and LAW.

Hebrews 7:12 (KJV)  “For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.”

Hebrews 7:18 (KJV)  “For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.”

The word COMMANDMENT in verse 18 must be referring to the word COMMANDMENT in verse 5 which is referring to the tithe.

Therefore, the COMMANDMENT to TITHE was disannulled.

Isn't it odd that even though Abram gave a tenth directly to Melchizedek, the king/priest, that some Christians think they can give directly to God by giving it to their pastor?

I find it quite offensive that pastors have appointed themselves to be the receiver of what belongs to God.  After all, the pastor says the tithe belongs to God.  Then he appoints himself to receive the tithe!!!

God never gave any pastor or church permission to receive his tithe.

Hebrews 7:7 (KJV)  “And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.”

Abram, the lesser, was blessed by the King-Priest Melchisedek, the better.

Abram gave the tenth to the better.

1 Peter 2:5 (KJV)  “Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.”

1 Peter 2:9 (KJV)  “But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:”

1 - According to the scriptures, priests do not tithe.
2 - As priests, all born-again believers are equal.  There is no better or lesser among us.  God has not designated any born-again believers to collect His tithe.
3 - To try and “tithe” today is denying that you are a part of a Royal Priesthood.

@garyarnorld
Thanx for your ever so incisive and detailed response.

All of these people who claim to be "tithing" today are NOT. They are practicing a false tradition that has the word "tithing" slapped on it.

According to the SCRIPTURES:

1) The tithing laws that God gave to ISRAEL (not the CHURCH), were a part of the Old Covenant -- and the Old Covenant does not exist anymore. It is no longer active or in use. When Jesus died on the cross and resurrected on the 3rd day, He abolished the Old Covenant and established the NEW COVENANT. In the New Covenant, we are personally led by the Spirit of God in our giving (those who are led by the Spirit of God are the SONS OF GOD), and we give from a cheerful heart. People who claim to be "tithing" are trying to obey an Old Covenant law that does not exist anymore. And they are disobeying the New Covenant principle of Spirit-led giving, which was demonstrated by the first Christians in Acts 2.

2) According to the Old Covenant, the tithe had to be produce or agriculture (meat, grain, oil, wine, fruit, etc). Not monetary income. People who claim to be "tithing" today do not tithe produce or agriculture. They give money.

3) The tithe had to be brought to the Jewish temple, to a Levitical priest. Yet today, the Jewish temple no longer exists (around 70 A.D. God used the Romans to destroy the Jewish temple because it was no longer useful or needed). In the New Covenant born-again Believers are the Temple of God.  

The Levitical priesthood does not exist anymore either. When Christ died on the cross and rose from the dead, He abolished the Levitical priesthood, and established a NEW priesthood (He is the Eternal High Priest, and the entire body of Christ is a royal priesthood). People who claim to be "tithing" today cannot bring their tithe to the Jewish temple, to a Levitical priest. It is impossible for them to do so, because the Jewish temple & the Levitical priesthood do not exist anymore. Even unsaved Jews have enough Biblical knowledge to understand that it is impossible to obey the Old Covenant tithing laws today. Yet Christians (who are suppose to be MORE spiritually-enlightened than unsaved Jews) are trying to obey a law that is impossible to keep today. What is wrong with that picture? Do unsaved Jews have a better understanding of the Old Covenant than born-again Christians?

4) The laws of the Old Covenant were meant to be obeyed as a SINGLE UNIT or contract. This means that the Old Covenant tithing laws were meant to be obeyed ALONG WITH ALL OF THE OTHER OLD COVENANT LAWS. In the eyes of God and Israel, you were not allowed to pick and choose which laws you would obey from the Old Covenant. You were expected to obey ALL of the Old Covenant commandments, and if you broke ONE LAW -- you were guilty of breaking the ENTIRE COVENANT. This is why James 2:10 says "For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all."

Since the Old Covenant laws were meant to be obeyed as a SINGLE UNIT or contract, if you put yourself under ONE Old Covenant law -- you are indebted to keep ALL OF IT. This is why Galatians 5:3 says "And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law." You cannot obey the bits and pieces about tithing, and combine those bits and pieces with the NEW COVENANT, and then ignore the rest of the Old Covenant laws. That is what I call "buffet style Old Covenant Churchianity." If you are going to put yourself under ONE POINT of the Old Covenant, then you are indebted to obey ALL of it. But guess what? You cannot even obey one point of the Old Covenant because it doesn't even exist anymore. God abolished the old and established the new. Why not give according to the New Covenant where God is moving today? Who prefers old wine over new wine, and thinks that old wine tastes better than new wine?

Those of you who are trying to obey the Old Covenant tithing laws keep in mind: "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” If you try to obey ONE POINT (for example tithing) from the book of the law (the Old Covenant), then you are indebted to keep ALL of it. Yet if you do not continue in ALL of it PROPERLY, you receive a curse (see Deuteronomy 28:15-68 which explains all of the curses for breaking the Old Covenant). Why put yourself back under an ABOLISHED law, and receive a curse for not continuing in all of it? Why not just let go of the abolished laws with their curses and obey the New Covenant where God's grace and blessings are? The only reason I can think of why a born-again Christian would put themselves back under an Old Covenant law and under a curse (for not obeying ALL of it properly), is that they have been bewitched by a false teacher (Galatians 3:1).

@ garyarnold & FreeIndeed
May our Good Lord Bless and continue to give you the understanding of His precious word you have shared with us here.

Now where are those shallow minded tithe proponents?

nlMediator:

Again, if you don'd mind, I'm asking once more: what is this spiritual principle that tithing is based on?

Don't expect response from Jo Am quite sure Jo does not have an answer to your question The man like to use terms meant to confuse the congregation, that's all

interesting thread

God does not want tithe either in money or in goods. Tithe is made for man, it is teaching the principle of live, give it shall be given on to you, water and you shall be watered, renewable energy, or like the ocean which recives and send it out on a constant basis not like dead sea which gives and never receives. Pastors preach tithe these days mainly for thier selfish interest but tithe is good for man as a whole but remember God does not need money or goods he makes everything on earth even the man and the wisdom to make wealth. My advise for you is to trust and obey. The church use tithe money for general maintainance and money for levites which are the pastors in these days. At least they are toiling day and night and they deserve an earning you can bring it in form of goods, cars, houses, money it does not matter but the instruction is tithe is needed mainly for food to be in the house of God.

2Ch 31:5  And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly.

Deu 14:28  At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:

Please when you give unto the lord do not give grudgingly, dont think about what the man of God wants to do with it. have it in mind that you are giving as on to the lord, and the bible says that the lord that sees you secetrely will reward you openly. note God is never begging for your money.

@ free indeed- why do you turn your bible upsidedown when reading, there is no portion of the bible that says you should discard the old testament- Jesus says He as not come destroy that which was said in the old convenant but through it the new might be fufill, so what about all the prophesies God told in the old convenant and are still going to come to past.
Heb 13:8- He is the same lord yesterday, today andd forever.
We have a lot odf doctrine that the Devil is bringing in now, different from what christ preaches in these last days

Deu 14:22  Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
Because they were predominantly farmers, shephards, fishermen and warriors as of old so they can only quantify things in that other. But for now our income is our produce.

live the men of God to do anything with it, because they will be judge accordingly

Malachi 3:8-10. - Please dont rob God.

What is the tithe?

Tithes is the giving a tenth of one's income as an offering to God. Abraham was the first man ever recorded in the bible to give tithes to God. Read the full account in Genesis 14.

Gen 14:17-20
17 After Abram returned from defeating Kedorlaomer and the kings allied with him, the king of Sodom came out to meet him in the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King's Valley).
18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High,
19 and he blessed Abram, saying,
"Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth.
20 And blessed be God Most High, who delivered your enemies into your hand." Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything. NIV

Melchizedek was the priest of the Most High God. The bread and wine he offered to Abraham had a close resemblance to the Lord's Supper. (Luke 22: 14 -23)

Hebrews 7 sheds more light on Melchizedek. Here he is called the priest of the Most High God. He was the only one qualified to receive tithes from Abraham. All this happened before the law was established. There is no record of Abraham, who at this time was still called Abram, being told to give tithes to God. Nor is any explanation given for Abraham's paying of tithes. It seems as if the tithes were a free will offering that Abraham instinctively knew he should give. He did it willingly.

Abraham's victory in battle led him to pay tithes. He was not paying a financial debt but offering a gratitude of praise and thanks to God with his tithes. Abraham was moved to give tithes not compelled.

Jacob gives us the second reference to paying tithes when he made a vow to God

Genesis 28:22
20 Then Jacob made a vow, saying, "If God will be with me and will watch over me on this journey I am taking and will give me food to eat and clothes to wear 21 so that I return safely to my father's house, then the LORD will be my God 22 and this stone that I have set up as a pillar will be God's house, and of all that you give me I will give you a tenth." NIV



Here Jacob was following a family tradition. Paying of tithes was an act of gratitude and acknowledgement of God's blessings. Giving was and still is an act of worship.

@garyarnold

Please read your bible telling the holy spirit to givr you devine interpretation not what you want.

Deu 14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
Eph 4:11-12 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Pastors are God's representative on earth and they are ordained as priest as of old, they are also reffered to as priest.
Pls check the dictionary meaning of pastor and priest.
They have the right too collect the tithes becaus ethey are the Head of the Body of Christ "church"- Revelation.

Leave the Judgement to God to decide what to do wit them even if they steal from God.
You are n ot perfect too. Are you?

brainpulse:


@ free indeed- why do you turn your bible upsidedown when reading, there is no portion of the bible that says you should discard the old testament- Jesus says He as not come destroy that which was said in the old convenant but through it the new might be fufill, so what about all the prophesies God told in the old convenant and are still going to come to past.
Heb 13:8- He is the same lord yesterday, today andd forever.
We have a lot odf doctrine that the Devil is bringing in now, different from what christ preaches in these last days

Deu 14:22  Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
Because they were predominantly farmers, shephards, fishermen and warriors as of old so they can only quantify things in that other. But for now our income is our produce.

live the men of God to do anything with it, because they will be judge accordingly

Malachi 3:8-10. - Please dont rob God.

I see you are trotting out the good ol' Malachi passage to support your stand. Why hold yourself to Jewish laws? If you must stand by the Old testament laws, why have you not made any burnt offering too? Why do you not declare every menstruating woman 'unclean'?
How do you follow the 'an eye for an eye' rule in the OT yet adhere to Jesus's 'turn the other cheek' advice?

@Topic
If you must tithe, please give your tithe to God not to these greedy pastors. Jesus gave lots of parables about helping the poor and charity and absolutely NONE on tithing. He even made the distinction of tellling us that what we do for the poor and needy, we do for him. Yet these greedy pastors these days will focus their sermons almost exclusively on tithing.
If you MUST pay your tithe, sort out 10% of your earnings and proceed to the nearby orphanages or prisons. I assure you, you'll be more in keeping with Jesus's teachings.

My words will fall on deaf ears, though.

brainpulse:


Eph 4:11-12 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Pastors are God's representative on earth and they are ordained as priest as of old, they are also reffered to as priest.
Pls check the dictionary meaning of pastor and priest.
They have the right too collect the tithes becaus ethey are the Head of the Body of Christ "church"- Revelation.

Leave the Judgement to God to decide what to do wit them even if they steal from God.
You are n ot perfect too. Are you?

On one hand I have your own words exhorting us to hand over our cash to these pastors.
On the other hand, we have Jesus telling us through his parables that giving to the poor and needy is the same as giving to Him. We also have Jesus telling rich men to sell all their things, give the proceeds to the poor and then follow him.

Who do we believe?
Hint: Not you.

Tithe is a helpful hint of where the dedicated believer should start his or her giving. Tithing is not an act to fulfil the law but a demonstration of our love for God. When God gives you a hint it is prudent to take it.

The need for tithing in the Household of God has not ceased. Remember tithing fulfils three needs in the Kingdom of God.

1. Supporting the work of God - Acts 4:32 - 35
2. Providing for the laborers and the work of the kingdom - 1 Corinthians 9:14, Galatians 6:6
3. To support the disadvantaged (strangers, homeless, fatherless e.t.c) - Romans 15:26, 1 Corinthians16: 1-2, Acts 11: 27 - 30

Everything we have belongs to God (Matthew 19:21)

Dear friends these last days the devil is bringing alot of Doctrine into and from the fold of christ to derail men from the truth.

Paul warned timothy to be weary of false teachers, that claim to know the truth, but are thinking of what there belly desires, he said He should hold fast to his faith.
Old or Now. Tithe is mandatory. its better we pay now, than begging to pay it when its to late.

There are somthing that might be to late to correct when you get to heaven.

texazzpete:

On one hand I have your own words exhorting us to hand over our cash to these pastors.
On the other hand, we have Jesus telling us through his parables that giving to the poor and needy is the same as giving to Him. We also have Jesus telling rich men to sell all their things, give the proceeds to the poor  and then follow him.

Who do we believe?
Hint: Not you.

@tex, Jst believe dt you are doing everything for God, tithe is just a form of trading with God, Malachi 3 verse 10 said , Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive

hel

@ texazzpete
there is different btw tithes, offerring and free gift offering. Mind you i didnt quote onlt Malachi.

No part of the bible can be interpretted or treated in isolation for proper understanding.

Concerning the sacrifice you mentioned- pls read roman chapter 5,6,7,8-it will tell you why christ have come to redeem man from sacrifice from the burnt offerings.
the old testament to the new is like a revised edition. you can not trow it away you must make referrence to it, if you have study any course on documentation (QMS) of project management.
Our God is God of Yesterday , Today and Tomorrow-Heb 13:8. God is not just God of tommorrow, is that not funny
His words are new every morning

@ dramenda
Your issue was like that of the pharisees whenn they came to jesus asking him why he should heal on the sabath day. he answered them that how many of them that have a donkey that enter a ditch on the sabath and will leave it to die, they never reponded and they went away.
let the spirit of the lord direct you to do that which is pleasing in the sight of the lord without robbing him and care for the need.

dramenda:

hello peeps,i have a tithe to pay,and an orphan came to me to help him/her out for her waec fee,the tithe money is only what i have left,if i give the money to the person,is my tithe accepted?i have spend all other money have with me,its only the tithe i have left.i need a spiritual advise,

First of all, you shouldn't be "paying tithe" as a born again Christian, you should be helping the needy like this WEAC fee orphan (double here since he/she is NEEDY and also an ORPHAN), widows, strangers, etc. These are the ones Jesus Christ CHARGED us to help, protect, left up, in addition to living a HOLY life that we might find FAVOR on that great day.

If there is anywhere Jesus Christ asked us to give 10% of our earnings to a "church"/pastor, I'll love to see the passage(s).

Anyone who's been on NL for a little time will attest to Pastor JoAgbaje's religious acrobatics which I know he didn't learn at UNIBEN, CEC university "exposed" him to a lot of antics one might add.

Nothing brings out the "NL religion section faithfuls" like TITHE,

brainpulse:

@ dramenda
Your issue was like that of the pharisees whenn they came to jesus asking him why he should heal on the sabath day. he answered them that how many of them that have a donkey that enter a ditch on the sabath and will leave it to die, they never reponded and they went away.
let the spirit of the lord direct you to do that which is pleasing in the sight of the lord without robbing him and care for the need.

Brainpulse (what a handle!)

Was the book of Malachi addressed to Christians? Think very well before you regurgitate the same BS you're being fed in your local business center/chapter.

@ bunmioguns

that was a very good reply. ibelieve people needs to know that God is greater that all what we have.
Solomon Gave more than what was required of him to God( was it dirrectly to God's hand or he went visiting God, no) but to God's house and God blessed him beyond every riches on earth even today no body was as rich as he was.

These issue of tithing as generated a lot of arguement expecially from those that dont want to give, looking out for scrpitural refrencces to quote to suit there own ego.
Whether you give or not, God's church can never go begging.

@Ogajim

2 tim 3:16-17

All scriptures, every part, every word was through the inspiration of God and was written to all children of God including me. I dont know about you. so that we might be perfect in all good works.

I was fed and am always fed thrugh the Holy spirit every day. because i want to know more about God. Its a sweet experience.

bunmioguns:

@tex, Jst believe dt you are doing everything for God, tithe is just a form of trading with God, Malachi 3 verse 10 said , Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive

Malachi 3:12
12“Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land,” says the Lord Almighty.

Why are we not seeing the reward of tithing in Malachi 3:12 on Nigeria with all the Churches that collect tithes why is Nigeria still the way it is today
Tithe payers and collectors are always saying they are blessed, Malachi 3:12 says tithing should bless the nation not just individuals.