dare2think:

Neither can you pay God for Blessings, (atleast not the God I know of),

True talk, my brother

tunnytox:

i don't know why many preach this tithe issue as if their life depends on it.

Pastor need to feed as well so don't blame them for 'milking' the congregation

Tithing and the Law
The commandment to tithe was part of the Law that Jehovah God gave to the 12 tribes of ancient Israel more than 3,500 years ago. That Law decreed that a tenth of the produce of the land and fruit trees and a tenth of the increase of the herds be given to the tribe of Levi in support of their services at the tabernacle.—Leviticus 27:30, 32; Numbers 18:21, 24.

God assured the Israelites that the Law 'would not be too difficult for them.' (Deuteronomy 30:11) As long as they faithfully observed God's commandments, including tithing, they had his promise of abundant harvests. And as a protection, an additional yearly tithe, normally consumed when the nation met for its religious festivities, was regularly set aside. Thus 'the alien resident, the fatherless boy, and the widow' could be satisfied.—Deuteronomy 14:28, 29; 28:1, 2, 11-14.

The Law did not specify a penalty for failing to tithe, but each Israelite was under a strong moral obligation to support true worship in this way. In fact, God accused Israelites who neglected tithing in Malachi's day of 'robbing him in tithes and offerings.' (Malachi 3:8, New International Version) Could the same charge be leveled at Christians who do not tithe?

Well, consider. National laws are not normally valid outside a country's borders. For example, the law that obliges motorists in Britain to drive on the left does not apply to drivers in France. Similarly, the law requiring tithing was part of an exclusive covenant between God and the nation of Israel. (Exodus 19:3-8; Psalm 147:19, 20) Only the Israelites were bound by that law.

In addition, although it is true that God never changes, his requirements sometimes do. (Malachi 3:6) The Bible states categorically that the sacrificial death of Jesus, in 33 C.E., "blotted out," or "abolished," the Law and with it the "commandment to collect tithes."—Colossians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:13-15; Hebrews 7:5, 18.

dare2think:

@ cooger
Perhaps, you have a crystal ball to know they are not stealing

except that the burden of proof is on you to prove they are stealing.
innocent until proven guilty not the other way round, amigo.

@zikkyy
Lol @milking the congregation   yes the Pastors need to feed but definitely not by forcing members of their church with threats of failure etc to compell them to pay tithe. Nothing should be done by compulsion even our salvation is not by force.

These days many pastors have devised several means of compelling their members to pay tithe, they'll do special prayers for their tithe payers while reiterating that for those members who don't pay it is the reason why things are tight for them. Its the same pastors that'll be riding jeep, live in luxury while church members struggle to even afford 3 square meals.

In Acts chapter 2 the apostles and early Christians ensure that every members of the Chritendom were catered for those who have excess sold their possesions and divide it all equally among the brethen but today all we are concerned about is who has build the best house in town, who is riding the latest car etc in fact salvation now has been relegated to the backdoor. All i know is that the wrath of God will soon descend on all children of disobedience who think they can mock God

tunnytox:

These days many pastors have devised several means of compelling their members to pay tithe, they'll do special prayers for their tithe payers while reiterating that for those members who don't pay it is the reason why things are tight for them. Its the same pastors that'll be riding jeep, live in luxury while church members struggle to even afford 3 square meals.

are the tithes meant to be shared equally by the congregation each month?

coogar:

except that the burden of proof is on you to prove they are stealing.
innocent until proven guilty not the other way round, amigo.

Lol. proof?

It is evident for all to see. Like I said, if you choose to ignore, Fine.


But dont expect others to keep quiet.


There are so many to choose from. ( Documented Fraudulent Pastors)
I'll give you just one.
http://www.entrepreneur.com/tradejournals/article/175076397.html
 

gat to go now dude. next time
Sleep tight.

coogar:

are the tithes meant to be shared equally by the congregation each month?

If your argument is that "tithing" as the Bible teaches it is for Christians today, then the answer is YES they are meant to be shared by the congregation "equally" (depending on how we interprete "equally" each month.

dare2think:

Lol. proof?

It is evident for all to see. Like I said, if you choose to ignore, Fine.

But dont expect others to keep quiet.

evident for all to see? how?
if it's that obvious, why haven't you arrested your pastor when you have a waterproof evidence that he has been stealing your tithes.
i don't work with conjectures or hearsays. if you are not an eye witness, you are a lie-witness.

Updated my post.

Enigma:

If your argument is that "tithing" as the Bible teaches it is for Christians today, then the answer is YES they are meant to be shared by the congregation "equally" (depending on how we interprete "equally" each month.

the sole purpose of tithing is provision for the church - there should be no lack of means or money to carry out God's work.
sharing equally like the 40 thieves in ali-baba must be your own wet dreams.

There are so many to choose from. ( Documented Fraudulent Pastors)
I'll give you just one.
http://www.entrepreneur.com/tradejournals/article/175076397.html

this one has already been caught. . . . .is this man the one running your church currently?
or should we put all pastors against the wall and have them shot based on this particular article?
common sense demands each case should be considered individually. this article does not prove chris okotie is fraudulent - does it?

coogar:

are the tithes meant to be shared equally by the congregation each month?

Lol   why not? if we can pay tithe introduced thousands of years ago why can't we share all our belongings just like early Xtians?
You see in the churches today there are several members who are in one need or the other but the Church these days has forgoten these set of people, all the church is concerned about is raisng fund for several projects, in fact the amount of pressure that some pastors put on their congregation has pushed them into commiting sin and to the extent of commiting several criminal acts just to belong. The church is not meant to be like that it should be a place of succor for the needy, the sick, the oppressed, the rich and all manners of people united by one thing which is our believe in  God and His Son Jesus Christ.

I was in one church few years ago when members were asked to contribute for the church to buy a building beside it to be used as guest room, function hall etc many members came out to contribute and even many more make pledges but it is in this same church that when a member cannot pay his house rent they asked him to come out of the congregation for members to contribute towards his house rent not many came out. And even I still wonder why he was asked to come out, the pastor of the church usually boast about how much God has blessed him and I  wondered why he or many other priviledged members cannot pay this rent instead of humilating this man who has a young family to cater for.

Examples of pastors that by law can definitely be said without fear of libel (or more importantly, fear of God) to have misappropriated tithes:

1. Matthew Ashimolowo
2. Douglas Goodman
3. Robert Tilton.

This is just a few; many more can be given.

Many others have been shown with reasonable proof to have most likely misappropriated "tithes". These will include Eddie Long, Benny Hinn, Paul Crouch etc. In fact, here the list that can be given is extremely lengthy but no need to go that far.

If we are to close our eyes and leave them to it, then this question arises: why did Jesus not leave the money-changers to it and instead chase them out of the temple? Why did He so often speak against these very "pastors" warning against them? Why did He so often speak against the equivalent of these very "pastors" in His own days?

coogar:

the sole purpose of tithing is provision for the church - there should be no lack of means or money to carry out God's work.
sharing equally like the 40 thieves in ali-baba must be your own wet dreams.

Well, let me show you what the Bible says: I will use an old post of mine for the purpose; (in fact, let me also tell you now that none of your arguments is new; we have exposed them all to be false before and we have been doing so since 2005)

I will use that my post from the following link just exactly as I first wrote it: from here https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-685535.0.html#msg8497302


If there are three types of "tithes", and one of them is below

Deuteronomy 14

23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and olive oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always.

then, when last did any tithe preacher preach that as it is important to learn to revere the Lord your God always, every month you must take a tithe of your income and throw a party and jollify yourself with it. Oh, and you should do this in church every month! Why? If storehouse now equals "church" what about "the place where God chooses as a dwelling for his name"? That has to be the church too kẹ! Therefore, every month "tithers" should throw a "tithe party" in church and jollify themselves with a "tithe" in addition to paying the Malachi "tithe" into church.

Meanwhile, give me a bit of time to work out how we sort out the third "tithe", you know the one --- that one for widows, orphans etc. Come to think of it, I don't recall any "tithe" preacher telling us we should do that one or how!

Hmmm anyway ṣha, we now know that every month, "tithers" must pay at least 30% in tithes! Cool.

tunnytox:

Lol   why not? if we can pay tithe introduced thousands of years ago why can't we share all our belongings just like early Xtians?
You see in the churches today there are several members who are in one need or the other but the Church these days has forgoten these set of people, all the church is concerned about is raisng fund for several projects, in fact the amount of pressure that some pastors put on their congregation has pushed them into commiting sin and to the extent of commiting several criminal acts just to belong. The church is not meant to be like that it should be a place of succor for the needy, the sick, the oppressed, the rich and all manners of people united by one thing which is our believe in  God and His Son Jesus Christ.

I was in one church few years ago when members were asked to contribute for the church to buy a building beside it to be used as guest room, function hall etc many members came out to contribute and even many more make pledges but it is in this same church that when a member cannot pay his house rent they asked him to come out of the congregation for members to contribute towards his house rent not many came out. And even I still wonder why he was asked to come out, the pastor of the church usually boast about how much God has blessed him and I  wondered why he or many other priviledged members cannot pay this rent instead of humilating this man who has a young family to cater for.

my question is. . . . .whose decision is it to build more buildings, buy fleet of cars, buy air-planes, etc? is it the sole decision of the pastor or is there a committee that handles these huge expenses?

moreover, the church i attend whenever i visit nigeria, they care for the needy. they have this big box in the church where the less-privileged drop their requests and there's a committee that look after them. they connect them with jobs, supply them basic needs, etc. i really don't think it's morally right to buy a lexus jeep for all the congregation because the church made $1 billion profit in the last accounting year.

tunnytox:

yes the Pastors need to feed but definitely not by forcing members of their church with threats of failure etc to compell them to pay tithe. Nothing should be done by compulsion even our salvation is not by force.

I agree. it's just that the congregation could be stubborn, only willing to drop if there is something to gain. A good number of church goers will not 'drop' if there is no promise of blessings. So, pastor pastor need to be innovative, come up with various money yielding products that would appeal to the customers sorry congregation so my brother, it's business for pastor and some members (the business of give and receive).

tunnytox:

These days many pastors have devised several means of compelling their members to pay tithe, they'll do special prayers for their tithe payers while reiterating that for those members who don't pay it is the reason why things are tight for them.

See this as pastoral innovation

tunnytox:

Its the same pastors that'll be riding jeep, live in luxury while church members struggle to even afford 3 square meals.

Pastor is just smart (or smarter), that's all

tunnytox:

In Acts chapter 2 the apostles and early Christians ensure that every members of the Chritendom were catered for those who have excess sold their possesions and divide it all equally among the brethen

This model will not work in today's environment How do you expect the pastor to 'hammer' with this model

tunnytox:

but today all we are concerned about is who has build the best house in town, who is riding the latest car etc in fact salvation now has been relegated to the backdoor.

Yes oh pastor like to look good, live large and oppress the poor it's human. i guess

Err, How many of you people have received Jesus as your personal saviour and have a daily and ongoing relationship with Him? As I understand it, the topic of this thread would be the last on your minds if you've established the said relationship.

coogar:

my question is. . . . .whose decision is it to build more buildings, buy fleet of cars, buy air-planes, etc? is it the sole decision of the pastor or is there a committee that handles these huge expenses?

moreover, the church i attend whenever i visit nigeria, they care for the needy. they have this big box in the church where the less-privileged drop their requests and there's a committee that look after them. they connect them with jobs, supply them basic needs, etc. i really don't think it's morally right to buy a lexus jeep for all the congregation because the church made $1 billion profit in the last accounting year.

are you by any way insunuating that church are meant to make profit? if the church have more money left why not sponsor member to go on evangelism in rural ares and if there's still moremoney left in the cover it does no one any harm if the money is shared equaly

Enigma:


Well, let me show you what the Bible says: I will use an old post of mine for the purpose; (in fact, let me also tell you now that none of your arguments is new; we have exposed them all to be false before and we have been doing so since 2005)

I will use that my post from the following link just exactly as I first wrote it: from here https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-685535.0.html#msg8497302


If there are three types of "tithes", and one of them is below

Deuteronomy 14
then, when last did any tithe preacher preach that as it is important to learn to revere the Lord your God always, every month you must take a tithe of your income and throw a party and jollify yourself with it. Oh, and you should do this in church every month! Why? If storehouse now equals "church" what about "the place where God chooses as a dwelling for his name"? That has to be the church too kẹ! Therefore, every month "tithers" should throw a "tithe party" in church and jollify themselves with a "tithe" in addition to paying the Malachi "tithe" into church.

Meanwhile, give me a bit of time to work out how we sort out the third "tithe", you know the one --- that one for widows, orphans etc. Come to think of it, I don't recall any "tithe" preacher telling us we should do that one or how!

Hmmm anyway ṣha, we now know that every month, "tithers" must pay at least 30% in tithes! Cool.

i cannot understand a single thing you wrote up there.
don't refer me to any post in 2005. it muddles up the argument. kindly state your case why you feel the tithes collected every month should be divided equally among the whole congregation.

tunnytox:

are you by any way insunuating that church are meant to make profit? if the church have more money left why not sponsor member to go on evangelism in rural ares and if there's still moremoney left in the cover it does no one any harm if the money is shared equaly

the church is meant to keep a retainer so they can continue God's work in evangelism, expansion and development. more branches, home and abroad, etc.

For the benefit of those who were asking about the Hebrews 7 point, again here is an old post on that point. From here: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-685535.0.html#msg8477468

Hebrews 7

Verse 5

And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

Verses 11 & 12

If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12[b]For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.[/b]

Verses 18 & 19

For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. 19For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

In other words: "tithing" has been "disannulled" (abolished) along with the Levitical priesthood on which it was based: both have been replaced by the bringing in of a better hope (which makes things perfect) and by which we draw nigh unto God.

coogar:

i cannot understand a single thing you wrote up there.
don't refer me to any post in 2005. it muddles up the argument. kindly state your case why you feel the tithes collected every month should be divided equally among the whole congregation.

Of course, you can't! OK here is the breakdown:

- God said the tither himself should eat the tithe.
- Alternatively, God also said the tither himself should spend "tithe" money on whatsoever his heart pleased.

EDIT This was to be done in the company of other "tithers" i.e. what you call "the congregation" --- so each member of the "congregation" was supposed to take part in eating and jollifying themselves with the tithes!

But here you say that tithes are only for the "church"; so who do you want us to believe: God or you?

Enigma:

Of course, you can't! OK here is the breakdown:

- God said the tither himself should eat the tithe.
- Alternatively, God also said the tither himself should spend "tithe" money on whatsoever his heart pleased.

But here you say that tithes are only for the "church"; so who do you want us to believe: God or you?

but the tither already eats from the tithe in the modern era. when the tithes are collected to build huge edifices with the modern hi-tech gadgets, do you not benefit from those as a member of the congregation? buses to travel from point a to b. an enabling atmosphere to pray, adequate security of lives and properties, alternate power when nepa/phcn strike, etc. are those not the things the tithes have done that every member of the congregation enjoys? who do you think pay for the renting of the venue of the church, the plastic chairs, the people who fix the place every service? where do you think those people are paid from? the pastor's inheritance from his dad or from the federal ministry of works and housing?

Enigma:

In other words: "tithing" has been "disannulled" (abolished) along with the Levitical priesthood on which it was based: both have been replaced by the bringing in of a better hope (which makes things perfect) and by which we draw nigh unto God.

white elephant lie. matthew 23:23 says you are lying.

see, i don't have any problem if you decide not to tithe(it's your prerogative). . . . .but don't discourage the people who tithe with your heresy.

coogar:

but the tither already eats from the tithe in the modern era.

Now you are making things up and suggesting that people should disobey a specific command of GOD HIMSELF; go back and read the passage and see how important it was to God that the tither should eat the tithe.

coogar:
when the tithes are collected to build huge edifices with the modern hi-tech gadgets, do you not benefit from those as a member of the congregation? buses to travel from point a to b. an enabling atmosphere to pray. alternate power when nepa/phcn strike, etc. are those not the things the tithes have done that every member of the congregation enjoys? who do you think pay for the renting of the venue of the church, the plastic chairs, the people who fix the place every service? where do you think those people are paid from? the pastor's inheritance from his dad or from the federal ministry of works and housing?

God did not send anybody to build any "edifice" for Him; in fact He said He does not dwell in "edifices" made by human hands. Where God wants to dwell is in a man's heart and the man in whose heart and mind god dwells will realise eventually that God does not ask him to "tithe" anywhere in the New Testament. As for people acting in a serving role, if God dwells in their heart, they will serve joyfully especially if it is an atmosphere where everyone else, especially the "pastor", is by and large true to God and are not deceivers.

coogar:
white elephant lie. matthew 23:23 says you are lying.

Ask yourself who Jesus was talking to; check if you have ever read Matthew 23:23 (and its Luke equivalent) in proper context

coogar:
see, i don't have any problem if you decide not to tithe(it's your prerogative). . . . .but don't discourage the people who tithe with your heresy.

We have no objection to a person choosing to tithe; what we object to are false teachers and ignoramuses misleading other people back into a bondage from which Christ and His gospel has freed them ----- all simply to satisfy material desires and aspirations.

Enigma:

Now you are making things up and suggesting that people should disobey a specific command of GOD HIMSELF; go back and read the passage and see how important it was to God that the tither should eat the tithe.

i read the passage and i think you are the one making things up to satisfy the lusts of your argument. you people love to twist it the way you want anyways - i am not surprised.

God did not send anybody to build any "edifice" for Him; in fact He said He does not dwell in "edifices" made by human hands. Where God wants to dwell is in a man's heart and the man in whose heart and mind god dwells will realise eventually that God does not ask him to "tithe" anywhere in the New Testament.

yes, pastor chris can shepherd his sheep on the streets. . . .no cover from adverse weather, no organization at all. he can just call his congregation, and they block up a street and worship. sometimes i question the intelligence of some of the christians i debate with these days. how can you liken the old testament to now when more than 2000 yrs have passed. in these days where space is a key - these days where you cannot infringe on the rights of others - you want a pastor not to build edifice and shepherd sheep on the streets like a bunch of lunatics?

wow - you have it all figured out, don't you? keep on with it - you will win a nobel prize by the end of the year at this pace of yours.
don't give up.

As for people acting in a serving role, if God dwells in their heart, they will serve joyfully especially if it is an atmosphere where everyone else, especially the "pastor", is by and large true to God and are not deceivers.

please be realistic. you cannot expect every member of the church to be working full-time in the church. life on the outside must go on. people have their needs, their family to feed. in such situations, won't the church committee hire professionals to carry the tasks needed out? where will this money come from if not the tithes people have contributed. . . . .

Ask yourself who Jesus was talking to; check if you have ever read Matthew 23:23 (and its Luke equivalent) in proper context

hypocrites like yourself, of course.

We have no objection to a person choosing to tithe; what we object to are false teachers and ignoramuses misleading other people into a bondage from which Christ and His gospel has freed them ----- all simply to satisfy material desires and aspirations.

misleading? are people held at gun-points/knife-points to contribute tithes? has nigeria gotten so bad to that extent?
if you don't have tithes to pay - do the church refuse entry? stop you from sitting down? deny you the rights enjoyed by tithe payers?
mr enigma, you have got issues!

the hypocrisy becomes more glaring when men of your ilk go to whorehouses and there's no hesitation when you fork out $300 in one night.

This one's case is worse than pathetic, it would be a waste of time discussing with him much further; moreover he is a fine example of the fruit that the fraudster Oyakhilome produces in his followers.

Enigma:

This one's case is worse than pathetic, it would be a waste of time discussing with him much further; moreover he is a fine example of the fruit that the fraudster Oyakhilome produces in his followers.

so oyakhilome is a fraudster now? where is your evidence?
where is your proof? any criminal charges levelled against him?
is this a genuine accusation or one of your periodic wet dreams

@Febup said, "Hebrews 7: 8
8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

The above verse in the new testament tells us the men that die receives tithes, it does not tell us that God receives tithes. This shows that pastors are the ones receiving tithes and they are not collecting it for God as they claim."

No, that is NOT what the New Testament tells us. The Book of Hebrews was written BEFORE the Temple was destroyed. The Jews kept taking their tithe to the Levitical priesthood until the Temple was destroyed in 70AD. That verse is referring to the Levites and has nothing to do with today.

Those who think they are paying the Biblical tithe today are merely taking a tenth of their income to man, NOT God. They have been deceived.

MORONS!!!

Get busy co-operating and building economic capacity and create heaven on earth for your citizens.

@Febup and co,
I beg una too much jare! You understand the scriptures so well. But the sad part is, this tithe thing is like a "CULT" that even when you are quoting the Bible showing what God's says peeps are so deep into tithe (cos their pastors say so) that they cant see any other way.

@Coogar,
I would expect you to disprove all the Bible quotations (here) instead you are just showing the world that you know no other way even when the proof is staring you straight in the face. Whatever you do, just know that God does not need your money (though pastors do) What God needs is kindness to your fellow man, so you might wanna think on spending some of those tithe money on Widows, Orphans and the poor not turning Pastors into celebrities that wanna compete with Puff Daddy with their bling! bling! lifestyes

Febup:

Hebrews 7: 8
8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

I can see that tithe collectors and those claiming they pay tithes are running away from the above verse.  Why  

Who receives the tithes is it men that die or God But I keep hearing all these false teachers telling us that the pastors are collecting the tithes for God.

You too much my guy, Abeg explain the Hebrews 7: 8 for me well cos I no grab the full gist. Thanks

"you cannot have it both ways. . . . .if you are correcting my assertion, then you are backing the touts on this thread who think paying tithes is evil, irresponsible and a waste of time. your moronic diligence to even go on the net to dig up a pitiful link that only 6% americans pay tithes show how spiritually-corrupt you are. it's not by force. . . .i don't think churches charge gate fees in nigeria. . . .if they bring the offering bag to you, just pass it on - you won't be arrested for it. what i will not have you do is to covet another man's fortunes. if you feel aggrieved, convert your father's living room into a church and collect tithes/offering."

Hey, slow down! You may be hare-brained, but you need not make that so obvious.

I can see you’re really stung by my debunking your baselessly false claim that it’s only in Nigeria that people complain about tithes. You’re the type that because they managed to visit Ethiopia a few years ago, bamboozle people in Nigeria with claims about what happens in foreign countries that they know next to nothing about. Sorry, wrong forum and timing!

I know I’m basically wasting time instructing you, but I’m enjoying the amusement value. Your comments evidence a staggering ignorance and simplicity. Here’s a guy that professes interest in exclusive conversation with intellectuals when he’s so poorly educated and largely unexposed.

Hardly anybody who has successfully gone through a thorough graduate program in a real university will make such an asinine claim that ‘only Nigerians complain about tithes (on the ground that the pastors misuse the money). Because such graduate or even student would know that (1) he cannot prove the assertion, having not been to all the countries in the world nor in possession of any decent study that says the same, and (2) the claim can easily be disproven, even by pointing to just one country that shows the contrary.

To disprove it, here it is – this time read s-l-o-w-l-y:

1) In the US, vast majority of Christians do not pay tithes.
2) One can assume that they do not pay because they have one complaint or another about tithing. But we need not rely on assumption. We have the evidence published on the internet, at least.
3) Some of these complaints relate to how pastors use (or misuse) the money. For a sample, see a book published recently on that: “What Your Pastor Didn’t Tell You About The Prosperity Message” by Leah L. Davis, available here - http://leahldavis.com/main/

If you cannot afford one or have no accessible credit card, let me know and I can send you a copy at my expense. That’s worth it for the free entertainment you’ve provided. Even your insults are hilariously unimaginative. Keep the amusement going. You're an answer to prayer!