₦airaland Forum

Was a Mass Exodus Even Possible in the Time of Ramesses II?

We now know that the solution to the problem of the Exodus is not as simple as lining up dates and kings.

The expulsion of the Hyksos from Egypt in 1570 BCE ushered in a period when the Egyptians became extremely wary of incursions into their lands by outsiders.

And the negative impact of the memories of the Hyksos symbolizes a state of mind that is also to be seen in the archaeological remains.

Only in recent years has it become clear that from the time of the New Kingdom onward, beginning after the expulsion of the Hyksos, the Egyptians tightened their control over the flow of immigrants from Canaan into the delta.

They established a system of forts along the delta’s eastern border and manned them with garrison troops and administrators.

achorladey:
Person wey don lost. She is really looking for where to pick from your response to support his madness and insanities peddling brains that you are an apostate, atheist, agnostic e.t.c he obtained from the SWEET A......... S........ S of MaxInDHouse.

Hahahahahahahaha

No be small lost wey she lost Sha.

The sweet a.s.s of MaxInDHouse must have been intoxicating.

😅😅😅

So if a historical Exodus took place, scholars have argued, it must have occurred in the late thirteenth century BCE .

The Merneptah stele contains the first appearance of the name Israel in any surviving ancient text.

This again raises the basic questions: Who were the Semites in Egypt? Can they be regarded as Israelite in any meaningful sense?

No mention of the name Israel has been found in any of the inscriptions or documents connected with the Hyksos period.

Nor is it mentioned in later Egyptian inscriptions, or in an extensive fourteenth century BCE cuneiform archive found at Tell el-Amarna in Egypt, whose nearly four hundred letters describe in detail the social, political, and demographic conditions in Canaan at that time.

As we will argue in other threads, the Israelites emerged only gradually as a distinct group in Canaan, beginning at the end of the thirteenth century BCE .

There is no recognizable archaeological evidence of Israelite presence in Egypt immediately before that time.

And there were other specific details of the biblical Exodus story that pointed to the same era.

First, Egyptian sources report that the city of Pi-Ramesses (“The House of Ramesses”) was built in the delta in the days of the great Egyptian king Ramesses II, who ruled 1279 – 1213 BCE , and that Semites were apparently employed in its construction.

Second, and perhaps most important, the earliest mention of Israel in an extrabiblical text was found in Egypt in the stele describing the campaign of Pharaoh Merneptah—the son of Ramesses II—in Canaan at the very end of the thirteenth century BCE .

The inscription tells of a destructive Egyptian campaign into Canaan, in the course of which a people named Israel were decimated to the extent that the pharaoh boasted that Israel’s “seed is not!”

The boast was clearly an empty one, but it did indicate that some group known as Israel was already in Canaan by that time. In fact, dozens of settlements that were linked with the early Israelites appeared in the hill country of Canaan around that time.

Please note - A stele is a vertical piece of stone with writing cut into it, often used in the past as a gravestone (= a stone that shows where a dead person is buried).

See image below showing the stele of Merneptah.

The Bible speaks explicitly about the forced labor projects of the children of Israel and mentions, in particular, the construction of the city of Raamses (Exodus 1:11).

In the fifteenth century BCE such a name is inconceivable.

Exodus 1:11 - So they put slave masters over them to oppress them with forced labor, and they built Pithom and Rameses as store cities for Pharaoh.

The first pharaoh named Ramesses came to the throne only in 1320 BCE — more than a century after the traditional biblical date.

As a result, many scholars have tended to dismiss the literal value of the biblical dating, suggesting that the figure 480 was little more than a symbolic length of time, representing the life spans of twelve generations, each lasting the traditional forty years.

This highly schematized chronology puts the building of the Temple about halfway between the end of the first exile (in Egypt) and the end of the second exile (in Babylon).

However, most scholars saw the specific biblical reference to the name Ramesses as a detail that preserved an authentic historical memory.

In other words, they argued that the Exodus must have occurred in the thirteenth century BCE .

A Conflict of Dates and Kings

The expulsion of the Hyksos is generally dated, on the basis of Egyptian records and the archaeological evidence of destroyed cities in Canaan, to around 1570 BCE .

When trying to date of the age of the patriarchs, 1 Kings 6:1 tells us that the start of the construction of the Temple in the fourth year of Solomon’s reign took place 480 years after the Exodus.

1 Kings 6:1 - In the four hundred and eightieth year after the Israelites came out of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon’s reign over Israel, in the month of Ziv, the second month, he began to build the temple of the LORD.

According to a correlation of the regnal dates of Israelite kings with outside Egyptian and Assyrian sources, this would roughly place the Exodus in 1440 BCE .

That is more than a hundred years after the date of the Egyptian expulsion of the Hyksos, around 1570 BCE .

But there is an even more serious complication.

This is where it gets really interesting...

🤓🤓

The Rise and Fall of the Hyksos

The tale of Joseph’s rise to prominence in Egypt, as narrated in the book of Genesis, is the most famous of the stories of Canaanite immigrants rising to power in Egypt, but there are other sources that offer essentially the same picture—from the Egyptian point of view.

The most important of them was written by the Egyptian historian Manetho in the third century BCE ; he recorded an extraordinary immigrant success story, though from his patriotic Egyptian perspective it amounted to a national tragedy.

Basing his accounts on unnamed “sacred books” and “popular tales and legends,” Manetho described a massive, brutal invasion of Egypt by foreigners from the east, whom he called Hyksos, an enigmatic Greek form of an Egyptian word that he translated as “shepherd kings” but that actually means “rulers of foreign lands.”

Manetho reported that the Hyksos established themselves in the delta at a city named Avaris.

And they founded a dynasty there that ruled Egypt with great cruelty for more than five hundred years.

In the early years of modern research, scholars identified the Hyksos with the kings of the Fifteenth Dynasty of Egypt, who ruled from about 1670 to 1570 BCE .

The early scholars accepted Manetho’s report quite literally and sought evidence for a powerful foreign nation or ethnic group that came from afar to invade and conquer Egypt.

Subsequent studies showed that inscriptions and seals bearing the names of Hyksos rulers were West Semitic—in other words, Canaanite.

Recent archaeological excavations in the eastern Nile delta have confirmed that conclusion and indicate that the Hyksos “invasion” was a gradual process of immigration from Canaan to Egypt, rather than a lightning military campaign.

But there is an even more telling parallel between the saga of the Hyksos and the biblical story of the Israelites in Egypt, despite their drastic difference in tone.

Manetho describes how the Hyksos invasion of Egypt was finally brought to an end by a virtuous Egyptian king who attacked and defeated the Hyksos, “killing many of them and pursuing the remainder to the frontiers of Syria.”

In fact, Manetho suggested that after the Hyksos were driven from Egypt, they founded the city of Jerusalem and constructed a temple there.

Far more trustworthy is an Egyptian source of the sixteenth century BCE that recounts the exploits of Pharaoh Ahmose, of the Eighteenth Dynasty, who sacked Avaris and chased the remnants of the Hyksos to their main citadel in southern Canaan—Sharuhen, near Gaza—which he stormed after a long siege.

And indeed, around the middle of the sixteenth century BCE , Tell ed-Daba was abandoned, marking the sudden end of Canaanite influence there.

So, independent archaeological and historical sources tell of migrations of Semites from Canaan to Egypt, and of Egyptians forcibly expelling them.

This basic outline of immigration and violent return to Canaan is parallel to the biblical account of Exodus.

Two key questions remain: First, who were these Semitic immigrants? And second, how does the date of their sojourn in Egypt square with biblical chronology?

The Lure of Egypt

One thing is certain.

The basic situation described in the Exodus saga— the phenomenon of immigrants coming down to Egypt from Canaan and settling in the eastern border regions of the delta—is abundantly verified in the archaeological finds and historical text.

From earliest recorded times throughout antiquity, Egypt beckoned as a place of shelter and security rity for the people of Canaan at times when drought, famine, or warfare made life unbearable or even difficult.

This historical relationship is based on the basic environmental and climatic contrasts between Egypt and Canaan, the two neighboring lands separated by the Sinai desert.

Canaan, possessing a typical Mediterranean climate, is dry in the summer and gets its rain only in the winter, and the amount of rainfall in any given year can vary widely.

Because agriculture in Canaan was so dependent on the climate, years with plentiful rainfall brought prosperity, but years of low precipitation usually resulted in drought and famine.

Thus the lives of the people of Canaan were profoundly affected by fluctuations between years of good, average, and poor rainfall, which directly translated into years of prosperity, hardship, or outright famine.

And in times of severe famine there was only one solution: to go down to Egypt.

There is good reason to believe that in times of famine in Canaan—just as the biblical narrative describes—pastoralists and farmers alike would go to Egypt to settle in the eastern delta and enjoy its dependable fertility.

Yet archaeology has provided a far more nuanced picture of the large communities of Semites who came in the Bronze Age from southern Canaan to settle in the delta for a wide variety of reasons and achieved different levels of success.

But is it history?

Can archaeology help us pinpoint the era when a leader named Moses mobilized his people for the great act of liberation?

Can we trace the path of the Exodus and the wandering in the wilderness?

Can we even determine if the Exodus—as described in the Bible—ever occurred?

Two hundred years of intensive excavation and study of the remains of ancient Egyptian civilization have offered a detailed chronology of the events, personalities, and places of pharaonic times.

Even more than descriptions of the patriarchal stories, the Exodus narrative is filled with a wealth of detailed and specific geographical references.

Can they provide a reliable historical background to the great epic of the Israelites’ escape from Egypt and their reception of the Law on Sinai?

The heroic figure of Moses confronting the tyrannical pharaoh, the ten plagues, and the massive Israelite Exodus from Egypt have endured over the centuries as the central, unforgettable images of biblical history.

Through a divinely guided leader—not a father—who represented the nation to God and God to the nation, the Israelites navigated the almost impossible course from hopeless slave status back to the very borders of their Promised Land.

So important is this story of the Israelites’ liberation from bondage that the biblical books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy—a full four-fifths of the central scriptures of Israel—are devoted to the momentous events experienced by a single generation in slightly more than forty years.

During these years occurred the miracles of the burning bush, the plagues, the parting of the Red Sea, the appearance of manna in the wilderness, and the revelation of God’s Law on Sinai, all of which were the visible manifestations of God’s rule over both nature and humanity.

The God of Israel, previously known only by private revelations to the patriarchs, here reveals himself to the nation as a universal deity.

As part of my indepth research into the true origins of the Bible and religion in general, I recently added a new book to my library.

The book is titled: The Bible Unearthed - Archeology's New Vision of Ancient Isreal and the Orgin of Its Sacred Texts.

It was written by Finkelstein Israel and Silberman Neil Asher.

About the Authors:

1. Finkelstein Israel born March 29, 1949 is an Israeli archaeologist, professor emeritus at Tel Aviv University and the head of the School of Archaeology and Maritime Cultures at the University of Haifa.

Finkelstein is active in the archaeology of the Levant and is an applicant of archaeological data in reconstructing biblical history.

He is also known for applying the exact and life sciences in archaeological and historical reconstruction.

Finkelstein is the current excavator of Megiddo, a key site for the study of the Bronze and Iron Ages in the Levant.

2. Silberman Neil Asher born June 19, 1950 in Boston, Massachusetts is an American archaeologist and historian with a special interest in biblical archaeology.

He is the author of several books, including The Hidden Scrolls, The Message and the Kingdom: How Jesus and Paul Ignited a Revolution and Transformed the Ancient World (with Richard Horsley), The Bible Unearthed : Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts (with Israel Finkelstein), and Digging for God and Country.

A graduate of Wesleyan University, he studied Near Eastern archaeology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. Awarded a 1991 Guggenheim Fellowship, he is a contributing editor to Archaeology and a member of the editorial board of the International Journal of Cultural Property.

He served as the president of the ICOMOS International Scientific Committee on Interpretation and Presentation (ICIP) and was a member of the ICOMOS International Advisory Committee and Scientific Council from 2005-2015. In 2015 he was named a Fellow of US/ICOMOS.

In this thread, I going to share some excerpts from Chapter 2 of the book so that we can confidently answer this question - Did the Exodus Really Happen?

Let's dig in!

MaxInDHouse:
Hmmmmmmm you're not intelligent at all!

Can't you see that i'm breaking all the walls you have built around your unbelieving mind?

Well my response is to assure faithful people that God was with the Israelites when they spent 40 years in the wilderness the journey that was supposed to take them less than 6 weeks.

So if any of them was with the camp of Israel back then will he turn back to Egypt since they have spent more than 5 years or continue faithfully with Moses who led them out of Egypt?

I'm sure you will not even last up to two months in that camp because you will doubt the God leading them, the spirit in front of them and what would you have said about Moses the imperfect human representing God in their midst? Exodus 7:1

Ọmọ your misfortune is not just about what those apostates did but FAITHLESSNESS!

Hahahahahahahahahaha

You go explain tire.

No evidence.

Why is God confusing your Governing Body with back and forth teachings?

What is truth today can become false tomorrow and what is false today can become truth tomorrow!

Is that how God reveals truth to his beloved servants?

😅😅😅

Here is another fruit of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses.

😅😅😅

Who are the superior authorities at Romans 13 VS 1?

Romans 13:1 - Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

According to the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses :

1. Up to 1929 - “Evil as these Gentile governments have been, they were permitted or “ordained of God” for a wise purpose. (Rom. 13:1)” Studies In the Scriptures Series I - The Divine Plan of the Ages p.250

2. Between 1929 to 1962 - "The Superior Authorities are the Most High God Jehovah and his exalted Son Jesus Christ.” This Means Everlasting Life (1950) p.197

3. From 1962 onwards - The Expression “superior authorities” means the political governments or authorities.” Life everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God (1966) p.189

Why the flip flop in doctrine?

First the superior authorities was the government, then the light got brighter and it become Jehovah and Jesus, and then the light got brighter again and it went back to become the government - again.

Is that how God reveals truth to his beloved servants?

😅😅😅

MaxInDHouse:
The illustration will be really difficult for you to understand because you're not used to such in your Omni mind!

A vineyard starts from a land where nothing is planted for harvesting but as soon as the sower comes the land changes from barren to fruitful.
Now the fruit he planted will surely suffice if it's the right seed and when you look at the field from a distance you will see the fruit he planted but then he will continue working on his farm to make the whole land perfect until then you will continue to see the things that has been growing before the sower comes!



So what you're talking about is not the seed planted otherwise you shouldn't find it elsewhere the fact that you're seeing it elsewhere is evidence that it's not the seed he planted but what he found in the barren field!

Hahahahahahaha

You go explain tire.

No evidence.

😅😅😅

Here is another fruit of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses:

Will the people of Sodom be resurrected?

Yes! – July 1879 Watchtower p. 8

No! – June 1952 Watchtower p. 338

Yes! – August 1, 1965 Watchtower p. 479

No! – June 1, 1988 Watchtower p. 31

Yes! – Insight Vol. 2, print edition, p. 985

No! Insight Vol. 2, online edition, p. 985

Yes! – Live Forever 1982 edition p. 179

No! – Live Forever 1989 edition p. 179

So, for the past 144 years, “the publications” have flip-flopped on this issue!

Is that how God reveals truth to his beloved servants?

😅😅😅

MaxInDHouse:
Those are the evidence of imperfection in man so there is no group of people, no society, no country, no city or town where you won't find such ones and don't forget that these are the same people we are preaching and teaching.

Jesus came for them not perfect humans {Matthew 9:13} but despite their imperfection they will achieve what God promised in the Bible book of Isaiah 2:2-4 and Micah 4:1-3

So you have finally agreed that the Child Sexual Abuse cases are one of the fruits you spoke about right?

You can't just gloss that over.

😅😅😅

cornelboy:
The concept of the infinite mind you're talking about, did you bring it from your mother's womb or someone brainwashed you 🤣🤣🤣

Hahahahahaha

As a human being, how do you create anything?

You first think about it in your mind right?

Therefore, everything that is created both seen and unseen must have been first created in The Infinite Mind of the Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent Father of All creation.

Everything is you see today in the entire cosmos, comes from that Infinite Mind.

The Joke is really on You.

😅😅😅

MaxInDHouse:
Jesus said:

"By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise, every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit. A good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, nor can a rotten tree produce fine fruit." Matthew 7:16-18

The fruit expected of pure worship is explained in the Bible book of Isaiah 2:2-4 and repeated at Micah 4:1-3

Only the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses have achieved this so their errors as imperfect humans is of no relevance to someone who is looking out for the FRUIT Jesus emphasized!

Are these also some of their fruits?

1. 159 report being sexually abused as Jehovah’s Witnesses - https://www.asahi.com/sp/ajw/articles/15052469

2. Child sex abuse investigation of Jehovah’s Witnesses fuels speculation - https://apnews.com/article/jehovahs-witnesses-child-abuse-pennsylvania-investigation-c08b543d8b0b69e03d3c2eba08526cf0

3. 5 members of Jehovah’s Witnesses congregations charged with child sexual abuse in Pennsylvania - https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/07/09/us/jehovahs-witness-child-sex-abuse-pennsylvania/index.html

😅😅😅

cornelboy:
Seems this your mind god doesn't have a name lol.

There is no name that can qualify the Infinite Mind that created the entire universe.

This Infinite Mind is everywhere all at once, and permeates the inner spaces of the universe.

Through out the ages, many people have called this Infinite Mind different "names", some people simply call this Infinite Mind God.

I know you worship a puny god called Jehovah/Yaldaboath who neither omniscient, omnipotent nor even omnipresent.

I know this might be too immense for your mind to fathom.

But unlike your puny god Jehovah/Yaldaboath, this Infinite Mind lives in you, in me, in the flower, in the earthworm and in every single atom in the entire cosmos.

Even the Bible you claim to have superior knowledge of agrees with me -

1 John 4:13 - This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit.

1 John 4:12 - No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

Come one don't feel sorry for me but for yourself. Your cheap blackmail can't work on people like me.

I really feel sorry for you and I am not trying to blackmail you.

You feel obeying God or listening to the GBs is slavery right? Lol

Point of correction!

Obeying God and listening to Governing Body are two completely different things.

Psalms 146:3 - Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save.

MaxInDHouse:
Your Omni this and that can't be worshiped as an organized people so what exactly are you arguing for?
Is it that people should come and worship you or they should not congregate together again since there's no perfect human to lead them?

I know the god you worship is neither omniscient, omnipotent nor omnipresent.

So I don't expect you to understand.

😅😅😅

MaxInDHouse:
He can't see that Satan has blinded him completely! 2Corinthians 4:4

2 Corinthians 4:4 - The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

It is you who puts your complete trust in mere mortal men, and yet you say I am blinded by Satan?

😅😅😅

Is this what Jesus taught you?

"All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not." Watchtower 2013 Nov 15 p.20

MaxInDHouse:
The GOVERNING BODY of Jehovah's Witnesses are Christ's brothers so submitting to their words regarding the preaching and teaching assignment Jesus Christ gave his disciples is like assisting Jesus in doing his work! Matthew 25:34-40

Those claiming believers but failed to work with the GOVERNING BODY yet they can't point to another better performing group with which to do what Christ commanded are in big trouble to face Christ Jesus! Matthew 25:41-46

Did "Jesus" teach the Governing Body that -

1. The world would be destroyed in 1975?

2. They should buy the Beth Sarim mansion becuase Abraham, Moses and other patriachs would be resurrected in 1925?

3. Jerusalem got destroyed in 607 BCE when it was actually destroyed in 537 BCE?

4. They should register and become members of the United Nations for 10 solid years?

5. They should protect Child Sexual Abusers in the USA, Australia, UK and Japan?

Are these the things Jesus taught your Governing Body?

No wonder they had the audacity to say:

"All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not." Watchtower 2013 Nov 15 p.20

cornelboy:
Who's this mind?

The Infinite Mind is Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent and is behind the entire cosmos.

If you can't figure this out, then I honestly feel sorry for you.

cornelboy:
Who do you put your trust into?

I put my absolute trust in the Omniscient, Omnipotent and Omnipresent Infinite Mind who created the entire cosmos.

Unlike you, I do not put my trust in mere mortal men nor in any Governing Body.

Unfortunately for you as a Jehovah's Witnesses, you must follow all instructions you receive from the faithful and discreet slave, regardless of whether they seem to be "unsound," "strange, impractical or illogical."

"All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not." Watchtower 2013 Nov 15 p.20

The Joke is on You.

cornelboy:
He's obviously the one with the pride lol

Can you explain how I am the one who is proud?

You claim to have superior knowledge and wisdom.

Yet with all your knowledge and wisdom, you forget that your own Bible says this -

Psalms 146:3 - Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save.

The Joke is on you.

tctrills:
Yes God would approve repented sinners to rule in his kingdom.
Obviously your leaders would soon update you so for now I don't blame you fro not knowing

Well, they recently released some new light concerning the resurrection of people who died during the flood and during the disaster of Sodom and Gomorah.

MaxInDHouse:
We are submissive to anointed servants of our God! Act 2:42

The Acts 2:42 - They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.

Does the scripture you quoted above say that you MUST OBEY the Governing Body even when what they say does not make any logical sense?

Here are the exact words of your Governing Body:

"All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not." Watchtower 2013 Nov 15 p.20

MaxInDHouse:
That's how Satan recruited Adam and Eve telling them they were kissing ass.

That's exactly how his fellow apostates got him by telling him that he's kissing asses of the Governing Body.

Interesting.

So from your statement are you saying that - the god of the old testament is equal to the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses?

Thank you for admitting that you are actually kissing the a.s.s of your Governing Body.

No wonder they had the audacity to say this:

"The Governing Body could be likened to the voice of Jesus, the head of the congregation. So when we willingly submit to the faithful slave, we're ultimately submitting to Jesus' authority and direction." Kenneth Flodin: ‘Jesus’ Yoke Is Kindly’ jwb-095-10.v 3:28 min

It is such an irony because you claim to be a Christian who believes in "Jesus".

But you can't even listen to the voice of the same "Jesus" who clearly stated this:

St. Luke 21:8 - He replied: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ’I am he,’ and, ’The time is near.’ Do not follow them.

MaxInDHouse:
Pride yet has Gods in USA while you aren't submissive to anyone!

Good thing you have admitted that you worship your GODS in the USA.

Yes, you got that right - I am not submissive to any mortal man.

tctrills:
You can't be projecting personal opinion or the teachings of your fellow human when discussing bible truths.
Pls how do you know that the 120 were the first born again in history?
There is no register of the names of all born again so you don't make up things.
It's ok to say 'I don't know.'
You don't need to start inventing new theories for the sake of an argument.

That is exactly how many of their flip flop doctrines were formulated.

They make unfounded assumptions using words like "perhaps", "likely", etc.

Ask thenm for evidence and they'd start mumbling.

cornelboy:
Lol Mr max and I have spoken on the phone. He knows what my gender is lol 😂😂

Doesn't change the fact that you kiss a.s.s on Nairaland.

cornelboy:
That's none of your business. If the a.s.s was bitter I wouldn't have kissed it. It was obviously sweet.

Hahahahahahaha

I hope you don't deny this your statement later on.

Cornelboy is a woman who enjoys kissing a.s.s on Nairaland.

The same a.s.s that is known for spreading LIES on Nairaland.

Wonders shall never end!!!

😅😅😅