₦airaland Forum

Seun:
I don't believe any God exists. I will believe it when someone can provide me with reliable, reasonable, objective evidence that a God exists. Just as you don't believe that Wonder Woman exists, but if she shows up in public to demonstrate her existence, you'll probably change your mind. You live your life without being worried about whether or not Wonder Woman loves you, though you can't prove that she doesn't exist.


We know that a God who wants everyone to know that he exists doesn't exist. If such a God existed, he would've provided very clear evidence.


If a God existed and wanted us to know that He existed, we wouldn't need to stumble about trying to prove his existence. He'd prove it to us!

It is possible that a God exists but hasn't provided objective evidence because He doesn't want us to disturb Him. Why not grant him His wish?

Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid:
While we were with the Prophet, a man stood up and said (to the Prophet ), "I beseech you by Allah, that you should judge us according to Allah's Laws." Then the man's opponent who was wiser than him, got up saying (to Allah's Apostle) "Judge us according to Allah's Law and kindly allow me (to speak)." The Prophet said, "Speak." He said, "My son was a laborer working for this man and he committed an illegal sexual intercourse with his wife, and I gave one-hundred sheep and a slave as a ransom for my son's sin. Then I asked a learned man about this case and he informed me that my son should receive one hundred lashes and be exiled for one year, and the man's wife should be stoned to death." The Prophet said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, I will judge you according to the laws of Allah. Your one-hundred sheep and the slave are to be returned to you, and your son has to receive one-hundred lashes and be exiled for one year. O Unais! Go to the wife of this man, and if she confesses, then stone to death." Unais went to her and she confessed. He then stoned her to death."

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
... In the meantime, 'Umar sat on the pulpit and when the callmakers for the prayer had finished their call, 'Umar stood up, and having glorified and praised Allah as He deserved, he said, "Now then, I am going to tell you something which (Allah) has written for me to say. I do not know; perhaps it portends my death, so whoever understands and remembers it, must narrate it to the others wherever his mount takes him, but if somebody is afraid that he does not understand it, then it is unlawful for him to tell lies about me. Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him, and among what Allah revealed, was the Verse of the Rajam (the stoning of married person (male & female) who commits illegal sexual intercourse, and we did recite this Verse and understood and memorized it. Allah's Apostle did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him. I am afraid that after a long time has passed, somebody will say, 'By Allah, we do not find the Verse of the Rajam in Allah's Book,' and thus they will go astray by leaving an obligation which Allah has revealed. And the punishment of the Rajam is to be inflicted to any married person (male & female), who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if the required evidence is available or there is conception or confession

iLiquidator:
I need to show blind followers like you the truth. Let him heal all the HIV positive people in Lagos first then I will believe his miracle is not a scam.

iLiquidator:
find me the contact of the priest I will take a different Aids patient and I will prove him wrong

Seun:
No, but that's because we don't need to prove it. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in any God. But you probably know this already.


Yes, this is what we do. We think it is sensible to withhold belief in anything until there is some objective evidence that the thing exists.

dalaman:
A bacteria can not communicate with a human being. Gods are said to communicate with human beings. You on your own have claimed to be communicating with God. I can ask you specific questions about your claim and it will show that you are lying and you are not in communication with any thing m you are only communicating with your imaginations. So do you communicate with God. Yes or no?

Deicide:
How Many times Would i Say this? Atheism is Not "There Is No God"

damogul:
Saying you were once a Christian is no proof to your claim. I am a Christian and have been for 30yrs of my life so our positions differ so can you show me real tangible proof to your claim

dalaman:
Personally I came to the conclusion that no God exist base Gods are man made ideas and conception. No God can be shown to exist on its on independent of man's input and societal acceptance. Men sat down and invented what ever concept of God they imagined based on various reasons.

dalaman:
I've been seeing many theist here (christians and muslims,) arguing about how their religion and God is true and those that do not accept their religion/ God are either blind, arrogant or foolish. What I have never heard from any of the theist arguing in support of one religion/ God or the other is providing an objective and incontrovertible way through which we will all test and know which religion/ God is true. How do we objectively know which God exists and controls thrle world and which God is false and vice versa? Where is the objective test to prove any of these religious claim? What methodology can be used to test and verify the existence of God that is objective to all? How can other religions/Gods also be shown to be false, what methodology do they need to fail for us to know that they are false? Instead of repeating what you have been coerced and indoctrinated with since childhood mostly, why don't the theist here do something different and show us with objective evidence why their religion/God is true and other religions/Gods are false. The theist making the claim that God exist should provide objective evidence that their Gods exist so that when we come in contact with it we will know for sure that it is their God and not some other phenomenon.

Blackbolt:
The problem is that you are yet to define GOD and EXIST. when can we say that A EXISTS?

ScepticalPyrrho:
@PDBonline.

Read below to see who is shifting the burden of proof.

@KingEbukasBlog why don't you tell dis man that we've gone past this a long time ago.

Atheists are not the claimant!!!

They lack believe because of lack of proofs! That is why they not need to proof the inexistence of God.

Why are doing this all over again. It's exhausting.

Can you provide proofs for the inexistence of Aliens?

Blackbolt:
I have been categorized as atheist because I havn't seen sufficient reasons to believe that God exists, nt because I claim GOD doesn't exist. That's all.
BTW op, define GOD and then define the word EXIST.

LiberaDeus:
The universe hasn't been searched thoroughly. Science doesn't know up to 2 percent of the possible knowledge in the universe. We don't know if VOD exists or not. I personally believe that there must be other intelligent things existing within and outside the universe.

Now for you theist or Christian. You know fully well that the universe hasn't been discovered fully, you know man can't aspire to know things that are beyond him. But ironically you don't just accept that there is a god, you claim to know him, to know his name and the name of his son, you also claim to hear from him, you claim to know when and how he created the earth, you claim to know his will for your life and what turns him on and off.

You my friend are making the boldest claims ever, for such extraordinary knowledge you claim to possess, you have put a very big big burden of proof on yourself. If you have made such a claim, then you must prove it.

For me I am not interested in the claim of the existence of a god, am just interested in the claims of those who know the god personally and understand his will and are chosen by him. It's you theists that am interested in.
Please don't shift the burden of proof.

There is a big difference between me claiming that there is a sky and you claiming that you know there is a sky and you also know that in the sky, there is a blue colored mansion with a golden door, plus a beautiful blonde haired lady guarding the mansion, plus a flying horse encircling the mansion and tons of gold in that mansion.
Such claims cannot just be taken at face value, you must prove it totally because the claim is so specific.

So you theist, prove that your god Yahweh is the creator of the universe. Am waiting for your answer

LiberaDeus:
I don't need to come to a conclusion, you just have to give me a reason to believe it. You were the one who first claimed that science proves the biblical claims.
You brought out a link to show that Noahs ark story was being proven. I showed you that the link said the opposite.
The onus is still on you. Please bring out scientific proof concerning your biblical claims. If you can't then just roll back into the canopy of blind faith and stay there. I have a problem when you religious people try to use double standards. You want to use faith and science at the same time. But science and blind faith can't work together so kindly choose your method of observing truth cause I have chosen mine and it isn't blind faith.

Am happy you said that several individual cases are used to provide conclusions. The key word is several. Am not dismissing your experience. But your experience is just one out of many experiences and it is gonna be arrogant for you to place your experience above all others including Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus etc. In your mind now, because of your personal experience, your god is real and every other god is fake right?


The fallacies you talked about will be addressed now

1. Yes I know many lazy Christians. But I also know not all Christians are lazy. That statement wasn't meant to be accurate, just like you telling someone that he is crazy. You might not mean it in its entirety but you still use the word. We are humans and we can make such mistakes. Coming to the accurate description, your claim about Noahs flood was lazy because you posted an article and didn't bother to read it till the end. Such lazy claims do your argument no good.

2. Appeal to ignorance. Now I want to personally tell you that I have a flying horse in my backyard. Please don't doubt me because you can't prove that i am wrong. If you say that I am wrong, you are only appealing to ignorance since you don't know if I am right and you can't prove it.
Now how does my logic sound to you? Cool right
Back to reality, if I make such an extraordinary claim like having a flying horse in my backyard, then the burden of proof rests on me to prove it to you. If I can't prove it to you then there is no reason why you should take it as real. If you choose to disbelieve me after years of me failing to prove it to you then you are doing the right thing.


3. Appeal to silence. The same as above. I can tell you that in my village in Nigeria, just last week a man raised 500 dead people, walked on a river, healed every cripple in the general hospital, brought down fire from heaven, caused a solar eclipse, caused an earthquake, pulled crowds of up to 10000 people throughout etc. Will you believe that something like that happened in Nigeria last week and no one heard of it. You can't believe that because you know that things far less shocking than that attract crazy media attention. So won't it be stupid for me to claim that you disbelieving my fairy tale is a fallacy that appeals to silence?
In such a case, silence is impossible. That's the same with your Jesus, silence to the wonderful works described in the gospel is totally impossible especially during the Roman literary classical period. He exhausted quite alright but all those things didn't happen.

4. Ad hominem. There is no fallacy there because the position of Gary Habernas is very clear from the start. You were the one who tried to appeal to his authority and I told you his authority is a Christian authority not a universal one. What if I told you god doesn't exist because Richard Dawkins said so, won't that be stupid? For me to expect you to disbelieve your God because an avowed atheist said so.

The reasonable thing to do would be to present Dawkins ideas and arguments to you. Ideas and arguments don't have flesh,blood and spirit. They are logical constructs that can be dismantled or upheld.
You didn't do that. Instead of bringing Habernas ideas to the forum so we can dissect them and analyze them, you brought Habernas himself and appealed to his authority expecting me to bow down to a supposed scholar. Well I can't bow down to him but instead I dismissed him because his position is biased.

There was no ad hominem there, the only thing I did was to dismantle your appeal to authority fallacy. Next time please list out Habernas arguments and I will face them. Bring the arguments not the man.

Kendzyma:
Nigeria itself is enough evidence that he doesn't exist,of course u had claim ur own proof of his existence is because u are alive.....
Think about it,why does he require human effort to prove his existence?...

akintom:
Can you please provide one "supernatural" experience of yours, that defied scientific explanations? . Pls make it short.

If rehab centers can achieve what you claimed a god did, don't you think that it wasn't God in the first place?
Or ascribing such transformation to god is fraudulent?

You're conflicting your points of arguments.
If you came forth to claim that you know the reason or cause of certain events, and you provided premises on which you based your claims.

On scientific investigation of these claims, based on your premises of proposition and other scientific principles, your claims were found to be untrue and inexistent.

How do you relate with that?

You're guilty of what you're alleging here.

Using a microscopic number of atheists style of arguments or their basic understanding of atheism, to conclude on the comprehensive propositions of atheism, is nothing but cheer mental laziness.

You folks claimed god exist. And base on the premises of your proposition, it's been found to be inexistent.

The burden of disproving the prove, of your falsehoods is squarely on you folk.


Until you're able to disprove, the prove of your falsehoods, the proves of atheists remain valid.

dblackninja:
Oh my good gracious tribalistic angry scared god!!! This is by no means an answer to my question to Pdb. HOW DID YOU KNOW GOD IS REAL ? Circumvent no more! The question is a no-brainer.

LiberaDeus:
Its good that you have accepted the fact that Noahs ark is not scientific.

As for your personal experience. I understand how you feel. When I had my own strong conversion experience, I dropped some habits too. When you have an emotional conversion, the force of it can make you drop some habits. Its purely psychological. Not only Christians experience that.

Secular institutions achieve much harder feats. Think of being addicted to cocaine, that's much worse than lying addiction. But rehab centers use secular methods to achieve it over and over and over again.
My friend, people have epiphanies, eureka moments, turn around points etc in their lives and these moments are characterized by unusual emotional strength that leads to changing a lifestyle.

You have to consider something, you are using your subjective experience to determine a much much larger universal truth.
If two events occur, the first being that the acclaimed word of god is proven to be contradictory and false and the second being that you had a wonderful experience that you attributed to god.
Which one should you use to base your belief in god on?

Most people like you will choose the latter. But realistically that's wrong. A universal truth cannot be determined by subjective facts and feelings that's why I asked for empirical evidence. Evidence is the thing that should make any religion be chosen as the right one.

Pastafarian:
anecdotes is all they have