₦airaland Forum

If you are an atheists kindly let us know your stand on abortion. Do all atheists support or oppose abortion? This is neither a debate on the existence or non-existence of God nor a debate on whether abortion is right or wrong?
Just a sincere question to know what atheists think about abortion.

randomperson:
This is an excerpt from a Christian website, grace to you:
” The word is doulos. Have you heard that word? The word is doulos. In the Greek, that word means “slave”--never means anything but “slave.” It doesn’t mean “servant”; it doesn’t mean “worker”; it doesn’t mean “hired hand”; it doesn’t mean “helper.” There are six or seven Greek words that mean “servant” in some form. Doulos never means “servant.” A servant is someone hired to do something. The slave is someone owned."
It even goes further to say that many places where the actual manuscript contain slave, servant is used but slave is never used in place of servant. So, your submission is wrong. When the bible says servant, it means servant. Those two references u quoted refer to servants.

Did you actually read before quoting Please read again.

Also check Greek-English dictionaries like I checked. Doulos is Slave. And you need to be interested in knowledge not just in trying to be right. The slavery that is wrong is the type of slavery you've been describing as wickedness not the ones allowed in the Bible which you seems to have not been willing to understand. Otherwise who is wicked when a man goes to voluntarily become someone else 's slave without coercion or when someone refuses to leave a master that said he can go free.

Now, I promise I won't answer YOU again except on issues of your objective source of right and wrong.

randomperson:
Apart from the issue raised by eyehategod, Colossians and Ephesians was very late for a reaction from God...slaves had already suffered for centuries and neither god nor jesus fixed it and even Paul's admonition didn't fix it as it was meant for servants not slaves.
And we are not discussing isolated situations here, imprisonment is not better than slavery. I already told you, imprisoning innocent people for whatever reason is bad.. And it doesn't matter how much resources u give a slave, if he's still a merchandize to you, it's wrong. There is a reason slavery has been abolished, and imprisonment is still allowed. Humans have succeeded where God failed in determining that slavery is wrong

Did you intentionally avoid answering my question on your objective source of right and wrong? Tomorrow prisons may be gone too. Will you change your mind? Is it right because it is retained?
Now that you agreed that prison is right. Just visit how people are treated in prisons. You are happy with prisons okay? Slaves have become great in the house of their masters and have enjoyed kindness and people have voluntarily offered themselves for slavery.

I know you've been told before you just don't want to get it because you think you love humans more than God ( Very funny of you.)

Just talk about what the standard of morality is? What informs right and wrong?

EyeHateGod:
WTF? You are now cherry picking? What of the ones in OT or do i have to Quote them out?... And Ephesian 5 wasn't talking about slaves it was talking about servent again their is a difference your house maid is not your slave...

Again colossian is also talking about servent and not slaves the op is talking about slaves we talking about wips here...

What do you mean Yahweh didn't command slavery?

It all boiled down to the fact that One derseves it and the other doesn't now there is an exception for the first that's if he didn't comite crime still stop comparing slavery to Imprisonment it doesn't make sense

The only response you will get from me is intended to prevent you from misleading people with confident error. The Greek word for that "servant" is doulos and it means "slave" "bondman" just as douloo means enslave.

randomperson:
The mere fact that God didn't address the issue shows implied acceptance. Abraham stopped idol worship but didn't stop buying humans as merchandize and God didn't tell him to stop... If God told him, be would have stopped.
And when abimelech gave him slaves he could have set them free if need felt it was wrong to regard human as property.
And plss, how many people will freely become slaves?? Most slaves were captured victims of war and were sold against their will.
And there is a difference between servants and slaves. Servants are like employees, slaves are merchandize bought and sold the same way we sell condom and garri. In fact, Hagar was another slave. When Sarah couldn't give birth, she told Abraham to sleep with her. That was rape because there was no consent.
That a word is derived fun another word doesn't necessarily make them similar. For example, converse and conversion

"Bond servant" equals slaves. When you say "Human RESOURCES" that is what you are saying. "Hired servants" equals paid employees(they shouldn't be called resources because they are rather partners). Both are servants or employees.

* You've not answered my question on your objective source of what is right and what is wrong since you've used the term passionately all these while.

randomperson:
Imprisoning people for the crimes they committed is not wrong but imprisoning innocent people is wrong... Imprisonment can be right or wrong depending on the s circumstances. Slavery, however is always wrong. It's wrong to buy people as merchandize and to use them as labourers with that paying them... That is slavery. Do u think it's right?? I would like to know

So where did you get your idea of right and wrong? And what is your proof that your source is reliable?

People Go to prison because of the crime they committed slaves are being bought or it might be voluntary slaves don't commit crime! Before becoming slaves so i don't see why you related the two together... Pls you should also do well to explain why you related them together...

The Bible states how slaves should treat their masters with respect and how masters should not even threaten their slaves but give them what is just and fair (Ephesians 6:5-9; Colossians 4:1). That's definitely not the kind relationship you and the rest have in your minds when you say "slavery" or is it?

The concept of slavery is not a moral issue. God determines what is right or wrong and He doesn't forbid slavery, He indeed allows it(now I didn't say He commanded it.) especially when voluntary and He also allows for freedom too.
God didn't have to forbid slavery because there is no need for that if people will be kind to their slaves and if slaves can gain freedom.

Slavery and Imprisonment

1. Both are USUALLY against people's will. Perpetrated by those more powerful than them.

People end up in prison because they committed crimes? Yes. But must criminals be imprisoned? What about people who are thrown to jail because the government in power does not like them or is threatened by there freedom? What about "prisoners of war"?

2. There are circumstances where both slavery and imprisonment are by choice and circumstances when they are preferred to other options.

In fact there are situations when a slave is better than a prisoner, especially when they have masters who treat them like the Bible says. They have access to the resources of their masters (good food, good shelter etc), the marry, fulfill sexual gratification and have children. Most prisoners have their lives come to a halt. Again, this is not how God wants it. This is man's careless invention- because a man should always be given a chance to become better and improve his or her life as long as he lives.

3. Both MAY involve forced labour and inhuman treatment.

4. Both have possibility of freedom

5. Both may be the result wickedness or kindness, injustice or justice for example during war situations

6. Both can bring positive changes AS JUDGED BY THE "VICTIM'S" EXPERIENCE not the society.

7. Both can actually be one experience: an imprisoned slave.

8. God doesn't forbid any of them. In fact, He allows both. But God teaches us to love all humans- slave or free, prisoner or free

randomperson:
When you have to forget all morality in an attempt to justify a good God's action, and u have to make statements like nothing is right or wrong, u wonder if Christianity actually make people better or worse

Please stop quoting me. You seems to find it difficult to understand statements. When did I say nothing is right or wrong? Is that what you wanted me to say so you can have a reason to show anger cause I don't get you.

EyeHateGod:
There is a Difference between imprisonment and slavery and am sure you know that so please don't bring that bullshit in here...

I didn't know you came here to fight. If you can't discuss intelligently without bringing in emotions and using abusive words you don't have to participate in such discussions.

But if you are ready to discuss intelligently, please tell me under what circumstances are people enslaved (the ones the Bible talks about) and how people are not imprisoned under the same circumstances. Do people usually go to prison intentionally or is it usually against their will? Are people captured during war situations imprisoned? etc

You don't have to answer if you are more driven by anger than by reason.

4everGod:
My position has been made clear on this thread and try as you would to twist that, it wouldnt alter the fact that you lot simply have this overwhelming need to be right but does that make you right? It actually makes you twisted like the one whose defense you jumped to. Even outside NL he is a sad lonely fellow that Akingbade character.

When you have to answer the same questions several times in different ways and they keep asking all over again... you wonder if atheism puts a cap on how far people can reason and grasp thoughts.
Understanding the perspective of someone else is different from agreeing with it but when they don't even understand.. that's the problem.

randomperson:
Yh... Others are reading and they will read where u implied that slavery is not wrong. What they won't read however is your answer to the question why god forbade eating shellfish but not slavery.... Because u failed to answer...
Oh, lest I forget, they would also read where u said if marriage is right, then being single is wrong

You are just happy to argue, not to reason if you actually read what I've been writing to you, understand it and this is all you have to come up with.

akintom:
Certainly not a deluded and blind one.

Your God didn't approve slavery, yet he gave rules about slavery.

Of course, it's only a god created by primitive Jews that can be this twisted.

Rules were given about kings and divorce to the Jews too yet the Bible reveals that these were not what God wanted for them. In fact Jesus clearly said, it was because of their stubbornness the they were permitted to divorce (except in marital unfaithfulness) but that wasn't God's will. God didn't create robots without will power.

hopefulLandlord:
this shows morality is subjective and not objective

this shows the bible does not dictate 100% your morals but society plays a part too

Morality is objective but issues of perception and conscience are recognized to be subjective in the Bible. There are issues people feel strongly about that are neither right nor wrong but because of someone's background, he or she attaches morality into it. The Bible says they are disputable matter and no one has the right to judge someone else's conscience.

That's different from saying there are no rights or wrongs.

EyeHateGod:
From my understanding non of you have been able to provide reasonable answer.. The question was simple why didn't yahweh or jesus forbid slavery?

Because He didn't have to.

Why didn't Yahweh forbid imprisonment?
Because He didn't have to.

hopefulLandlord:
this shows morality is subjective and not objective

this shows the bible does not dictate 100% your morals but society plays a part too

It's going to be impossible for you to understand morality if you don't understand that God exists.

4everGod:
You are wasting your time with that guy. Truth is not his desire but using your words to distort the truth is what his agenda is. Show him the truth for the next 20yrs and he will always say you are wrong. My advice, do not bother anymore!

Sometimes you need to be patient with people who see things differently from you or are even outrightly foolish (not interested in gaining understanding, just waiting to express their own opinion).
I know others are reading to gain knowledge.

randomperson:
God... That's some confuse logic... So nothing is wrong or right??... U no try at all...
And there's no need to charge god to court, he's imaginary

I understand that there people whose way of thinking is "if it not white, it must be black".
Interesting that you feel killing may not be right or wrong. Killing? But I get your point and I'm not confused.
Slavery is not the best of human relationship but it is permissible under some circumstances. However, where it already exists, if the slave find the opportunity to gain freedom, they should do so.

Is putting other humans in prison not worse than slavery? The Bible doesn't condemn that too because it is neither right nor wrong. The right or wrong comes with the circumstances.

randomperson:
I ignored those questions because they were of no issue to the topic... Anyways, marriage is right, government is right, killing can be right if justifiable... For example, self defense...
Why are u comparing these things to slavery... So u feel God didn't forbid slavery because slavery is not wrong??

I have answered you already and plenty times.
If you say marriage is right, meaning it is wrong to be single? If you say government is right? Does it mean that lack of it is wrong? You only got the answer to killing. There are relationships and actions that may develop and be accepted by people because of necessity or a perception of it. You judge each case differently. That's different from morality. If you are not satisfied, please, go charge God to your court.

Randomperson let me just help you. Everything is not either right or wrong, black or white.

randomperson:
Still dodging... I thought u Christians claim god is source of morality... So why didn't he tell us slavery was wrong?? He told us homosexuality was wrong, didn't he?? If u don't have an answer to this question, just say so and stop wasting my time

You quoted me. I asked you if marriage was right or wrong, if having government was right or wrong or if killing was right or wrong.

If you had done some thinking before quoting me again, you would have discovered that you were asking the wrong question.

randomperson:
Why do u keep avoiding the main issue... In the ten commandments we have "Thou shall not commit adultery". Why don't we have a verse like that against slavery... Stop dodging!!

The last time I checked you didn't start this thread and I told you that you don't bring God to your level, you move up to or at least try to move up to His level of thinking.

Why do you think slavery is so fundamental that it should be included into the commandments. Have you tried keeping the first commandment? Even the "Do not commit adultery," you mentioned, have you acknowledged that that was very important?

randomperson:
It is wrong now and it was wrong at that time... God should have known that then and should have told the humans... Why did men have to arrive at that conclusion themselves? What is God's duty if me can't tell if us what's wrong as at when due

Is marriage right or wrong? Is having government right or wrong? Is killing right or wrong? Is sex right or wrong?

IF YOU READ MY PREVIOUS RESPONSES AND THINK ABOUT THESE QUESTIONS, YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THAT GOD HASN'T LEFT US ALONE TO MAKE THE CONCLUSIONS. HE 1. OFFERS GUIDANCE, 2. GIVES COMMANDS AND GRATEFULLY 3. ALSO ALLOWS US TO USE THE BRAIN HE GAVE US- ALL THREE!

randomperson:
I think the bible should condemn slavery because it's barbaric, wicked and inhumane... U don't think the bible should condemn slavery??
And what point are u trying to prove by saying freedom of the mind?? Remember, that in spite of all Joseph did for Potiphar, he was still thrown in prison for the unsubstantiated claims of a promiscuous wife... That's slavery for u, no right to fair hearing
I would like to know, do you think slavery is bad?? If it is why didn't God or Jesus forbid it?? How can u reconcile this blatant omission with the fact that God remembered to forbid eating shellfish, homosexuality e.t.c. Are these ones worse than slavery.
FYI, there's a new thread on an other issue u might be interested in: https://www.nairaland.com/3511203/did-god-accept-human-being#51796001

You got it wrong dear. Go to any prison today and you will find people in there who are not slaves.
When people say "slavery" their minds go to the display of wickedness from one man to the other. These things are present between husbands and wives, between parents and children, between employers and employees etc.
There are slaves who were treated well by there masters that they rejected freedom when it was offered them. So your argument is against evil human-to-human behaviour, not against slavery- which is just another form of relationship.

However, the Bible indicates that freedom is better. For example, God commanded years of Jubilee where every slaves MUST be freed except he/she personally decides otherwise.(The God of the Bible doesn't violate people's will).

Also, as I mentioned earlier, 1 Corinthians 7:21-23 shows that if you are not free, have freedom in your heart (that's a clear path to mental health) but if you can be freed, use the opportunity.
What else do you want the Bible to say on the topic? Approve what YOU think is correct? It doesn't work that way! We just have to swallow our pride and walk in humility. You can't get it wrong obeying the Bible so far you understand it

People who think the Bible should outrightly condemn slavery while supporting capitalism are not consistent in their thoughts.

Why should some people own land? Did they create it? Is it just and fair that some claim ownership of any resources? And why should some people do all the work while just some few share the bulk of the profit? Do you think if workers have a true say, they will grant signature to the so called employment contracts? Who can really pay for the worth of another human's time?

I'm just saying that there are things that are only permissible and reasonable just for now. What is most important is how to live under whatever condition for your best result. What will warrant a slave to be beaten and treated harshly? People can behave wrongly- master and slave alike and there will be consequences. But the Bible places emphasis on how to behave with respect and love and how to accept freedom when you have the opportunity, which the Op did not consider.

If I may ask, why do you think the Bible should condemn slavery?

You didn't quote from 1 Corinthians 7:21-23:

"21Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. 22For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord’s freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ’s slave. 23You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings"

Your attitude in whatever situation you find yourself matters. I know it's difficult for some people to get rid of the victim mentality but the Bible teaches you to stay free in your mind and attitude even if you are a slave.
In the old Testament also, we read the story of a slave who went on to become the ruler of the then Super Power Egypt because he had freedom in his disposition to life and retained his inner identity with God.

The society is yet to be free of slavery even among the free but if you understand the Bible stand on the topic, you current situation will not affect your mindset and you will be able to recognize opportunity for freedom.

Al-Qur'an (The Koran) as we have it today was never so all through the lifetime of the Prophet of Islam.
Some of the debates in the Islamic world on issues of Alcohol, Punishment for Adultery, succession of the prophet of Islam and other issues including violent Jihad can be traced to

1. The existence of verses not present in the current Qur'an which some Islamic scholars claimed were omitted.

2. The Qur'an itself stated that there are verses that have been abrogated or substituted but we still have them now.


Giving the fact that all through the lifetime of the prophet of Islam the Qur'an was not compiled into a book and he neither claimed to have received a revelation as touching that nor did he suggest it, is the Qur'an as we have today not an error or innovation of overzealous religious enthusiasts?


Addition
Na wa o. Seun I can't even reply to my post again. And this is not muslim chat box o.

Anyways, Friendchoice and ohiMuk, do you know the history of the Qur'an as you have it today? Just google it lest you say a non muslim is trying to attack Islam.
But I will say the Qur'an was recited by Mohammed and written down by many on leaves, stones, tree bark etc and memorized.
What you have as the Qur'an today was compiled after the death of Mohammed. My question is should this have happened. Should people not just be reciting it? Should there be physical book called Qur'an

2. Are Shiites and Sufis Muslims or not by the standard of the Qur'an?

foladara777:
So God can provide for them, but chooses not to?

You are not realistic about your views. You are just like a thief blaming the judge for his agony in the prison, or student blaming teacher for failing them when they did not know the answer to the question.
You sound like "So the teacher can pass them, but just choose to fail them."
His God to be blamed too when your food gets burnt, when a car gets hit etc. In your mind, thirst for power without regard for the cost of human lives, greed, selfishness are not responsible for hunger when after God said love your neighbour as yourself they said why should we obey God?

NinjaX:
If God can lead his priests to perform just one _fucking "real" supernatural stunt, we won't need to shove it in your faces again.

About landing on the moon; this goes to display how skewed the reasoning of a regular theist is.

With all the advanement science has witnessed it's a pity you still don't want to cure yourself of your ingrained ignorance.

You guys are the ones selling blind faith to us from day one, telling us that some dead jewish dude died for my sins when I know nothing about him. You told us that a guy stayed in the belly of a fish for three days and survived. Yet no single evidence has been provided. Except the bible. And how the bible came about? You guys are blank on that.

If God is so proud that he can't spare time to convince man, then why the cunting _fuck does he crave adoration from men?

He is just wise enough to pay attention to those who pay attention to Him. If you can't find evidence in all the evidence He already provided; if you prefer to call other people's experiences of Him a lie then what else do you want from God?
You are the one who needs Him. He hasn't neglected revealing Himself to those who care to know Him.

foladara777:
The problem is not that the success is not immediate, it's that the success never comes, especially for those that die of hunger.
And are u claiming every Christian that never has success in their lives- who are many BTW, don't have success because they don't have faith??

Sit down with the Bible and read with humility to learn. Success is achievement of a set goal. Not accumulation of money. For Joshua, he was meant to lead the people of Isreal into Canaan. Accomplishing that is success.

When it comes to material wealth God guarantees that if you follow His instructions to you, you will not lack. But we are earned again and again not to set our hearts on acquiring wealth because God has promised never to leave nor forsake us.

I will advise you to stop judging God by other people's experience (you were not in their hearts to know what the issues are between them and God) and seek Him to know Him for yourself. Those who get discouraged in the way and give up end up trying to make it hard for those who choose to listen to God: "DO NOT BE AFRAID OR DISMAYED(meaning to feel disappointed)" There is so much to learn. Quiters don't win and their failures- no matter how hard they complained and abuse God- can never turn the success of others to an hoax.

@ foladara777
Let me give you another one to talk about. I hope that one day you'll stop giving excuses for your loss of Faith and you will actually humble yourself and repent of your lack of faith.

I was told by my department in school to withdraw and go to another department because of a policy that they discovered affected me. That was when I was in 200 level.
I got home that day looked at my text books and thought "so this is the end of the journey?"
Trying to console myself I picked my Bible to read. A chapter came to my heart so I opened it. It was Psalm 37. As I read on verse 7 seemed to jump out of the book into my heart. IIt knew that's one of the ways God speaks to people. Some say " the verse came alive to me". It reads
"Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for Him " The latter part actually read "Do not be hasty for God to act" in the translation I read that day.
I knew immediately that God will act on my behalf but I have a responsibility not to become impatient and not to act in fear (exams were about starting in other department and if I wanted to change department, the rational thing to do was to move immediately).

Because God is not an idea to me but He is very real and my Father whom I honour, I obeyed Him. I must confess I had to fight to keep my mind from fear. I did my best to continue taking lectures in the same department while some other affected course mates had changed department.

Time passed (I don't remembee how long now but it naturally looked so long)And then, one day we were in class when our "class governor" as we called him came in and announced that a meeting was just concluded and those who fulfilled a criteria among those affected had been allowed to continue. Of course, I happened to be one of them.

foladara777:
That verse is talking about God's impartiality towards poor people, it is not apt to the issue here
But Joshua 1:8 says if u meditate an the word of God, u would be successful and prosperous, Psalms 35:27 says God delights in the prosperity of his people.. So why do we have serious committed Christians who can't afford three meals a day.

Does Joshua 1:8 say the "success" is immediate without passing through any process? You should have also pondered on why God told you in the next verse not to get discouraged or feel disappointed.

Secondly, "serious committed Christian" will not replace walking by faith with God. If you don't believe what God says about you in your heart, it doesn't matter how "committed" you are, God's standard won't change because of you.

"...do not become sluggish, but imitate those who THROUGH FAITH AND PATIENCE inherit the promises." Hebrews 6:12

.

foladara777:
So u are not even sure if it's online transfer and u still concluded that the payment was an answer to your prayers..

It is online transfer.

And God doesn't have to wait till you pray?? He also could have provided for that other person so that he won't have to borrow from u or he could have enabled the person to repay you earlier.. Or u didn't think of that??

Why do you think God has to do everything for humans to be God including when He is not invited? You need to understand that God has given man authority over the earth and He has decided that He will do things in earth in answer to prayers and with people obeying His words.

Atheists seems to think like "We can do what I want or refuse to do whatever we don't want. If God exist,He should be responsible for the consequences otherwise, if He exist He must be wicked."


And u failed to address this: do people they pray always get their money back?? Do people who don't pray never get their money back?? Do Christians even have a higher chance of getting their money back??

Why do you think we have the Bible and why do you think God says we should seek to know Him- because we need to have a personal relationship with God to get the best of Him.He is more important to us in the equation than what we get from Him. You will understand why some prayers don't get answered if you start reading the Bible to learn not for other reasons.

And when you lump everyone together and say "Christians" That I profess to be a Christian doesn't mean I have chosen to follow God's way on any particular issue. We are all still learning to be who and what God wants us to be and that at all times.