₦airaland Forum

** PLEASE ATHEISTS DON'T CONTRIBUTE. THANKS**
Today, we are not talking about Catholics that call Mary "mother of God" and don't find that disturbing.

AND, SINCERELY, THIS IS NOT MEANT TO BE A SHAMING OF ANYONE. WE ALL KNOW IN PARTS AND CAN GROW IN KNOWLEDGE IF ARTICLES LIKE THIS ARE READ. IT IS MEANT TO HELP IN A REASONABLE THOUGHT PROCESS.

In the holy book of a man known as a prophet from the Arab world (who claimed to be a prophet to the whole world), it is written that

1. God- ALMIGHTY GOD- CANNOT have a Son because He doesn't have a sexual partner.(6:101)


But closer look into that theory, you will see that the same book states that the being the prophet calls God said

2. Mary who was then a virgin can have a son without a sexual partner. (19:20-21)

One now wonders if Mary can do what God cannot do...

But it gets complicated when we now find out that the same God says in the same book that He is not just willing to have a son; otherwise He CAN. (PRIDE OVERRIDING LOVE?) (39:4). If this is true this makes that book unreliable for important information because that is a major contradiction, especially when it is said to be A MESSAGE DIRECTLY FROM GOD that is preserved from corruption, unlike other holy books. "God CANNOT" and "God CAN but is not willing" aren't easy to reconcile especially when reasons are given.

How shall we deal with the matter now?

For the Christians, Jesus is not the Son of God because God had sex with Mary. Rather because only God was involved in the formation of the physical body of Jesus in Mary's womb AND THIS GOD SO MUCH LOVES YOU AND ME THAT HE IS WILLING TO MAKE YOU AND ME HIS CHILDREN IF WE BELIEVE AND RECEIVE JESUS HIS SON INTO OUR LIVES HAS LORD (1st John 3:1, John 1:11-12)

So, basically, either Mary can do what God cannot do (since Jesus is called Son of Mary and there was no sex involved) or the God of the Arab prophet is not willing to claim fatherhood at least out of love because he is just too proud (better still, has self-esteem issues).

We know that love is the primary nature of the true God. So let's judge the situation ourselves. What do you think?

Ragnorak:
As if they'd have granted approval if the churches applied.


The churches should have still applied to fulfill all righteousness.

Exactly my point. We need to hear from them too. If they didn't apply at all, they are not just wrong, they are dragging the Lord's name in the mud.

naijagobetter:
the existance of nigeria as it affect religion has to be redifined, meanwhile, 'christian states' should respond in same measure if not this rubbish wil consume us all before we know it. El rufia is begging for military deployment in Kaduna state to consoludate their gains not to maintain peace nd protect lives.

Stop raising religious sentiments please. The Bible teaches to obey the governing authority "for the Lord's sake". If the church didn't get permit because they didn't apply (I'm not saying they would have been given permit if they applied) then the state is justified.
We need to hear from both parties before making conclusions anyway.

[color=#000099]It's important to mention that prayer is one of the responsibilities of the authority of man.
God will not violate human the will and authority He gave to man on earth.
Concerning issues that are obviously out of your control at the moment or for wisdom to use the best approach for what is within your control, you still need to pray. But not an irresponsible prayer expecting God to do everything. [/colour]

akintom:
The fellowship part is not of interest to me, as long as it's kept personal and private.

But this interventionist concept of god idea, which is the focus of your thread, has no shred of trace in human experience.

Intervention is a precursor of fellowship. Since god never intervened, except in the unfounded assumptions of Bible, the fellowship part is unknown.

It's okay. But don't superimpose your experience on others. If you've not experienced God's intervention or don't acknowledge them as such, you may say so but don't generalize. Others have.

menxer:

Miracles are natural
When they do not occur
Something has gone wrong.
~Helen Schuman
A course in Miracles

The perspective you are speaking from is not the background here. Try follow the line of thoughts and I gave an example to show what I mean.

The world itself is a product of continuous miracle. A farmer plants just a seed, it becomes crop with fruits that can be replanted to become a plantation. That is a miracle continuously going on but not without humans taking responsibility for what they can do. Even when the manna was given, Israelites still have the responsibility of going out to pick for their families.

*Please this is not meant to be an argument to prove superiority of knowledge. Meant to help people and show them how things work in God's kingdom. Some who don't understand have become discouraged and faithless altogether. It's a serious issue please. .*

akintom:
It thus means i can do without consulting god, until such a time that god becomes a relevant factor.

This also means that in the event that i never ever need god help, i can eternally consigned god to oblivion.

Now the god idea concept, is inching close to reason.

There is a difference between intervention and relationship.
You needed you parents and caregivers once when you were a child. They even fed you after providing the food. That you don't need your parents to spoon-feed you anymore doesn't mean you should break up relationship with them.

Even then, God will always put things in your heart to do for humanity that is greater than you if you fellowship with Him. He would require your faith in Him but you must take responsibility to start what you can do.

Many Nigerians need to understand this issues. Miracles are not meant to be continuous interventions.
The day Israelites entered Canaan, the miracles of manna (food) stopped because, now they can get food by themselves.

cc: Lalasticlacla

menxer:
So you are saying we shouldn't "wait on the Lord," when he is the "author and finisher of our faith?" what role do we have again than to bask in grace?

"Waiting on the Lord" in the Bible is for renewal of strength(suggests you've been doing things).

It also means patience which is also not doing nothing. Rather, it means you should not give up under pressure.

AnonyNymous:
Whoever God is, or whatever form he/she/it takes on (assuming there is one), I think everything that humans need to make a better world already exists. Besides, religions define god as perfection, and tampering with his work would invalidate that definition because you don't tamper with something that's already broken. . . So stop waiting for 'supernatural intervention' because any change/improvement you need in your life has to be initiated by you and you alone

What people who don't believe in God say about Him is mainly what they believe and what they've heard religious people say about God.. not necessarily the reality.

God is perfect doesn't mean once God did something, man cannot alter it. In fact, God gave man authority over other things He created. With authority comes responsibility. Many people are not using their authority, some are misusing or abusing it. The consequences abound around us.
It is not tampering with God's work when a mother takes care of her baby; that is taking responsibility. If she leaves the child uncared for and the child dies, that's a consequence of negligence- not a proof that God is not real.

We have experienced so much disappointments from failed leadership and bad governance and deprivations that many are beginning to say "ONLY God" can do this; ONLY God can do that."

What has happened to us is that we are internalizing the failures of leadership and deprivations we see around us and the ones we've experienced and we are beginning to define ourselves by our experiences- seeing ourselves the way God is not seeing us. We see hopelessness, helplessness, failures and we even call ourselves so e.g. when we say,"No hope for Nigeria". It is people that make Nigeria what it is, so speaking hopelessness affects the speaker too.

I remember the story of Gideon in the bible whose people were being oppressed by another country- allowing them to farm and them showing up during harvest to carry away their harvest. Like many Nigerians Gideon internalized the weakness around Him and wondered why God didn't come to their aide. Finally, an angel of God appeared to get something for his family and called him "a mighty man of valour", later following up to say, "Go in this your might".

All the while, the mighty man was hiding because he defined himself by his situation. He didn't see himself as the solution.
What I am saying is that God is real and he loves you and me, but God will not do for man what He has equipped us to do. He intervenes when He knows we truly need help and when we ask for it but even then He still shows us what part we are to play.

WHAT ATTITUDE SHOULD WE HAVE?

Before we hurriedly conclude that ONLY God can do anything, we should remember that He created the laws of nature and the laws of success and gave us brains so we too can get busy becoming creative like Himself. God wants to see us act like Him together with Him.

If we focus on what we can do e.g. thinking solutions instead of worrying; trying to find out why things go wrong instead of transferring responsibility to a who (devil, witches, God) and if we genuinely pray for God's help while we go into action to solve problems rather than asking God to take up our own responsibility all together etc, if we make this our way of life, Africa will change very quickly for the better and Nigeria in particular will change to become one of the leading nations on earth.

We are so blessed by God already. Let's stop asking God to take up our own roles too- to do for us what we are a not willing to get involved in. It is not "ONLY GOD", otherwise God won't give us brains.

DeSepiero:
Hahaha interesting! Who made the statement? Kindly refresh my memory.
Maybe you're misunderstanding the speaker's perspective, maybe. That statement has a point though.

Oga of Nairaland himself

DeSepiero:
What's your argument?

Responding to the statement that everything makes sense when one becomes an atheist. That's a statement far from reality.

DeSepiero:
That's a good response Sire

except that EVERYTHING in your life makes perfect sense. That's a statement in ecstasy. If that's true what's the cause of high suicide rate among atheists?

Seun:
The meaning of atheism in Greek is completely irrelevant since "atheism" is an English word. It hurts to have to explain something so obvious. You can't prove that God exists by messing with meaning of the word "atheism". The word's current meaning is clear. Accept it and move on.

Everything that has "atheism" written by a someone who is not an atheist is not necessarily an attack on atheists bros.

Seun:
PDBonline, I think this writeup is a bunch of nonsense, and I'm glad to know that you didn't cook it up yourself.

What point are you trying to make by posting this writeup here? Can you make the point in your own words?

That is the REAL MEANING (not English dictionary meaning) of Atheism in the Greek and you can find it on Wikipedia as provided in parentheses before the English definition:

Atheism (derived from the Ancient Greek ἄθεος atheos meaning "without gods; godless; secular; denying or disdaining the gods, especially officially sanctioned gods"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_atheism
It has been said that Christians were once regarded as atheists in Rome because they did not subscribe to the officially sanctioned gods.

Silvereze:
Makes a lot of sense...

Sorry. The error is from Nairaland. Removed anyway.

"Atheism" in the true sense is not lack of faith in God/god(s); it is god-LESS-ness or lack of God/god(s). It is more properly defined as a state of living without regard or obedience to or concern for diety, especially a supreme personal Being, called God. (So people can be religious but godless or atheists. Disregarding God or God's word, even if you are Pope, to practice your church tradition will still qualify you as atheist.)

Atheism could have been simply defined as "lack of God/god(s) but if indeed God exists, you couldn't live without his input one way or the other even if you didn't acknowledge him or his input- either due to cheer rebellion or ignorance.

(Permit me the use of "him" for "God/god". It's for ease of writing.)

Atheism (from Greek: "a"= lack, absence; "theos"= god/gods) should therefore not be defined as a lack of faith in God. There is a proper word for that: "Apistis" (a-pistis; "a"= lack or absence; "pistis"= conviction, credence).
So, people who are generally called "Atheists" are actually "Apistis". As far as the truth of God or concept of a god/gods is concerned, they live in "apistia" (unbelief).

Also, in reality or practice, many who identify as atheists are just anti-theos: against God or the idea of his existence. Their opinions are formed; formed based on incidences( especially personal), subjunctive ideas that found co-sympathizers, and not on evidence because there is none. But they do have ideas which they hold on to by faith. This is the paradox. Their lack of faith is towards god but they do have faith towards men.

The fact that you asked God to reveal himself to you, for example, and he hasn't or at least you believe he didn't, doesn't make the experiences of those who said God reveals himself to them false. You may gain wisdom and better perspective by listening to those who get what you couldn't get. You may not believe them(to not believe is a choice) but you may be wrong as well.

Yet you may find apistis aggressively holding on to their own personal world outlook and experiences-academic experiences inclusive (e.g. researches, lectures, and readings), while rejecting and doing all they can to create doubts in people concerning the worldview and experiences of others.

They are in contrast to Propistis: those who seek to know (or to know more) of the reality of God, especially in a personal way. Those among these who do not know God in a personal way (and so atheists- lack of God), are willing to find him even if it means, looking into other people's experiences as a starting point.

SOURCE: www.House-Era.com

Originalsly:
Some people swallow without chewing... hook, line and sinker.... gullible people. I don't. The questions are not meant to be answered.... by Nairalanders nor the church... that's just me chewing over the story.... just can't swallow it..... looks very much like something staged.

It's okay then.

Philip Vander Elst was born to and raised in a family where both parents had no faith in the existence of God. He said:

Growing up in a non-Christian family with intellectually gifted but unbelieving parents, I used to think that belief in God and the supernatural had been discredited by the advance of science, and was incompatible with liberty. Religious faith seemed to me to involve the blind worship of a cosmic dictator, and the abandonment of reason in favour of ‘revelation’. Why, in any case, should I take religion seriously, I thought, when the existence of evil and suffering clearly discredited the Christian claim that our world owed its existence to a benevolent Creator?

But he wouldn't brush aside the writings of C.S. Lewis who had graduated with a Triple First Class Honours in Classics, Philosophy, and English; who also experienced great suffering from childhood and was equally an atheist turned Christian.

Read about the journey of Philip Vander Elst from atheism to the Way he once despised. Follow the link below.
http://www.bethinking.org/is-christianity-true/from-atheism-to-christianity-a-personal-journey

My first story is that of Lee Strobel a former Chicago Tribune journalist whose wife was the first to be converted to Christianity from atheism.

"I thought that the mere concept of an all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing Creator of the universe was absurd. I thought that God didn't create people, but people created God because they were afraid of death — so they invented this idea of Heaven. Those were the kind of thoughts that I had," he says. "I was hostile toward Christianity."

However, after his wife's conversion, he began to search for answers in the Bible and interviews of other christians of what was so powerful to change his wife for the better after her conversion.

It was this search that led him to Christ.

Read the interview he granted ChristianPost here: http://www.christianpost.com/news/ex-atheist-lee-strobel-my-wifes-conversion-to-christianity-nearly-led-to-divorce-interview-170581/ "

Welcome

Please follow this Post as I provide links to and share the story of former atheists who later became Christians.

Please feel free to share your story too if it is about atheist turned Christian.

Originalsly:
So the man just walked out of prison?..... spent 16 yrs and CAN'T SAY what he was accused of?.... nor which prison he was released from?.... neither his name nor where he s from?.... and is he an orphan that no one is there with him? Hmmm.... I think I know why no information for anyone to investigate.

Was this meant to be a joke?
Not everyone thinks everybody lies- including about God-related issues.

A lot of people who react like you will have something else to say, like "they bribed someone", "they lied about the term he was jailed for" (someone even said he was paid and he is just hearing about it here) even if the information was provided. Why don't you direct you questions to the church instead. They will be in the best position to answer, not fellow readers here.

And I hope you read it again. It wasn't the man sharing his experience. This is just a Facebook report. Wondering why the "can't say".

Ochoiho:
Am waiting for the comment of the God-haters.

You better don't wait. They say very annoying things o.. as if God will be hurt by human stupidity.

Dc4life:
Why kneeling before a pastor I'm sure this man was paid to give this false testimony

Na wa o. Your own pass vision sef. Maybe u you should produce yr evidence so the rest of us can be sure too.

*Just state your sentiment and move on; which one is you are sure he was paid.

Felixomor, Seun just confirmed what you've been saying ever since.

Mr Seun now. Please close this thread.
Nobody gave what I requested. Only excuses and some very annoying comments from people who find empathic reasoning difficult.

plaetton:
Bingo! !

The key WORDS here being ' ASSUME ' and 'THINK'.

You have just proven, without knowing it, that God is NOTHING but a product of Imagination and Wishful Thinking.

I rest my case.

Hmmm... did you read to understand at all? Your response is both shocking, disheartening and disappointing.

* That was just a post asking you to see from another perspective!
More absurd when I saw someone liking the response.

You don't think there is a reason why the sun is visible yet you can't just jump to reach it but you benefit from it?

God is not far from us and He speaks to anyone who cares to listen and no amount of proofs will satisfy anyone who doesn't want to listen.

plaetton:
How come we don't just sit back and ask the Sun, our Glorious Orb, to reveal itself to us individually ?

Just assume for a minute that God is real and think about the Sun constantly available to fulfill its God-given role. Your perspective will change.

Seun:
Experience are subjective. For example, a God appearing to me in a dream won't convince me because things that are not real appear in my dreams all the time. I'd just wake up and immediately forget the dream.The evidence will have to be independently verified by scientists.

1. God doesn't need the dream state to appear to you.

Dreams, from God however can be verified.
I once dreamt seeing a man saying he would love his wife to come back to him but she is the one unwilling to return. In the dream, I knew the man was the father of someone I just know from a distance but I verified the content of the dream. She told me the parents were separated and the mum is truly the one refusing to come back.

2. "WILL HAVE TO BE independently verified by scientists" is assuming the omnipotence of scientists. Have you heard of the scientific breakthrough where Spirits are spotted- like a spirit detector?

plaetton:
Funny how theists bother atheists to prove that god doesn't exist.

I mean, why can't the same theists ask atheists to prove that SUN doesn't exist ?

God is Spirit, sun is not.
The real issue is not the proving; the real issue is the attitude of many atheists towards God's existence and those who believe He exist.
It's like if it cannot be seen or proven, it is neither real nor important.

A little reasoning shows these are not true. Many things couldn't be proven, until someone deliberately did a research. Some of the findings are saving lives and changing society today--- for those who choose to believe they work.
We have the negative consequences of ignorance and complacency too. Knowledge must be sought and believed when found for it to be useful.

So plaetton, I won't call that funny. It's a drawing of attention to something important