₦airaland Forum

LightandDarkness:
And your belief that our existence suggests a creator doesn't make it valid, neither does perceived complexity. I guess simply agree to disagree.

Is there a proof in nature that something ever comes from nothing? Any proof that functional designs suddenly exist without intelligence?

By the way, if the complexities of nature are only my perception like u suggested, how come people get nobel prizes in science for such discoveries. It's real complexity resulting in simple functions dear. That tells anyone there is intelligence behind existence and coexistence or systems like ecosystem

Seun:
So you won't tell us the story? Not even to glorify God? Are you afraid that we'll be able to debunk your story without any physical stress?

You can debunk ANY story without physical stress... in your worldview.

Suddenly you now believe in storytelling ahead of evidence! Painfully, you are already thinking you will debunk it.
All atheists not open to knowledge are unscientific in their approach and the very fact that you already believe there is no God on the basis of not having the capacity to find Him yourself is already unscientific.

LightandDarkness:
Isn't also foolishness to accept that a god infact exists without any proof? By the W my reasoning is not clouded.

The proof is everywhere- including your existence and the complex DESIGN observed all through nature and the existence of laws/principles and systems. That someone doesn't accept proofs as proofs doesn't negate the existence of proofs. Which is exactly my previous point.

LightandDarkness:
"The most foolish set of people I have seen are those who insist there is no God yet they only have theories and propositions- no proofs- of how everything began. And they are never ready to accept any evidence from other people's point of view. If it is not what they believe an evidence should look like, it is not an evidence although they were not there when everything began. Very foolish way to live."

How exactly do you think everything began, tell us in detail please and show us your wiseness

"The most foolish set of people I have seen are those who insist there is no God yet they only have theories and propositions- no proofs- of how everything began. And they are never ready to accept any evidence from other people's point of view. If it is not what they believe an evidence should look like, it is not an evidence although they were not there when everything began. Very foolish way to live."

Maybe those emphasis will help you understand my point. I know the use of "the most foolish" could spark emotions which clouds reasoning. That wasn't my intention.

What I have said simply put is that it is foolishness to insist that God doesn't exist without proof, yet refusing to accept any evidence as true because they don't match what you think God should be or His evidence should be. If you already know, why bother anyone.

If you already have a preconceived idea of how God is supposed to be when you claim He doesn't exist and you also have a preconceived idea of what the evidence of his existence is, then you are actually saying that you believe God exists- just not the one that has been presented to you but the idea in your own mind.

By the w

LoJ:
Hello there,

I thank you for your analysis. However, I do not engage a debate with someone with preconceived ideas about who I am, and what he thinks I believe -or do not believe.

Have a great day.

Greetings.

Majority of my statement is not to you as a person otherwise I will direct it to you and use personal pronouns. I expressed a complete thought in one place rather than open another reply.

I also did not intend a debate with you.

While waiting for your reply, akintom, I should add that if someone is experiencing something, he can conceive an idea that he is not(probably because of ignorance of details or because he is in denail). It remains an idea or concept in his mind but it doesn't change reality.

akintom:
I obviously didn't create those two words. Your understanding of them, as they relate to the subject matter - God, faith and beliefs.

Will be okay, if you kick start.

Reality is something true, something existing, what actually happens, what is being experienced; as against ideation which is just in thoughts and imaginations- something conceived in ones mind which is not true, has not yet happened and is not in ones experience.

So back to you.

akintom:
The first test of your sincerity and maturity to engage me, is to first present your understanding of the difference between reality and idealization.


If you sure want to start from there

I actually asked a sincere question since you've been using those words. Knowing how you interpret them could help me see from your perspective.

Reality is something true, something existing, what actually happens, something that is experienced; as against ideation which is just in thoughts.

Why do atheists get engrossed in the debate about a being they don't believe exists? Are they trying to convince themselves that the truth is false? Just saying..

naijadeyhia:
Would telling you the "full story" suddenly make it a physical experience for you or turn you into the doctor or his family? I said clearly that stories are not what you should be looking for. You should seek physical research. Get up and go out for an actual investigation..this is what true scientists and researchers do and not online propaganda.

When you are ready you let me know then i would provide you with addresses and names so you can exhaustively do your physical research.

So seun you have joined my fan club too. I am humbled!

I will know if Seun is serious about believing reality as against the ideas-- ideas like "God doesn't exist", "Devils don't exist". Someone offered him to visit a shrine in Ondo state yesterday too when he said there are no witches. Instead of jumping at an opportunity to verify facts, he turned to question and answer again.
People should at least be honest about what they choose to believe.

Seun:
Can you just go ahead and tell us the full story? This is the first stage of the new investigation into your ability to raise the dead. Old one.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrBq_sFV3LA

Seun you are at it again. You sit with your computer acting like a judge over what you have no idea of. Someone offers you a real life opportunity to verify facts and you are acting like you are his boss. Are you not supposed to be the student if you are honest here? Get the contacts, verify from the hospital records like he suggested. Do the documentary and share it on Nairaland. We don't need his story, we need your findings.

fkdmods:
In that argument, and if you comprehended the entirety of it, i was comparing Nigeria to Ghana. In fact, almost every country on earth is better than Nigeria save for a select few. I hope you understand this since comprehension is a huge problem for you.

Comprehension is not a huge problem for me and I understand what you said.
I would have understood without you using abusive language too.
Calm down. Not every stranger is an enemy.

akintom:
I don't have who you are in mind, when am writing, it's your idea or claim that concerns me.

You can keep your concern for the reality or rationality of your ideas and beliefs.

Don't get emotional. Let's discuss. Tell me how to differentiate reality from idea.

fkdmods:
Guy, every country has problems. Since the dawn of time in fact. The problem is religion erodes common sense and facts. Left to the church, we would still hold the belief that the earth is flat. You realise that people who held a counter view were executed by the church. Or that it was wrong for ordinary citizens to read the bible. Only the clergy were allowed to do so. If you disobeyed you were executed. Plus, i'd rather have the problems of japan and china than the problems of Iraq, Nigeria, Syria, etc.

You didn't mention Ghana, South Korea, Germany etc

akintom:
Are you by any reason knowledgeable in mental health?

Are you conversant with the term "empirical facts"?

Are you conversant with the term differential diagnosis?

Are you conversant with the term syndrome?

Can you differentiate reality from idealization?

Is your God a reality or an idea?

When you attempt these questions, you will understand better

Lol.. I am not in an ego fight. Just concerned for you. But you are chatting with someone who knows something about the point he raised. Never brag about what you know when chatting with someone you don't know.

fkdmods:
Ignorance is the bane of Religion. It is funny that Nigerians claim to be religious but are probably the most depraved people on earth. You doubt me? Just look at the society they have created for themselves.

So are you and Seun not Nigerians and are you saying atheists are not part of the problem of this nation? Don't countries with anti-religion cultures have problems.
The problem is not the religion, the problem is what the expected-to-be-religious is taking out of his/her religion and personally applying.

shotster50:
I wont say mumu people because that is disrespectful and not my intention.... However , Sheeples, Gullibles, who cannot wait to gnaw at any bone thrown at them... Someone can raise a HUMAN being from the dead and it isn't the BIGGEST News of this century.. you want to know why?
By all means worship the Creator but do not pay any heed to these magicians and their bag of tricks.

Of course it was a big news but no matter how big the news there will be those who will not hear. Or do you think only what is shown on cnn is happening on earth? You only see on TV what they want you to see.

LoJ:
HERE is an article that explains to you, why this "miracle" of Bonke is most certainly fake. You will also have a collection of newspapers counting the number of deaths at Bonke's Crusades as Sarassin and Seun indicated to you.

Ps: The article is written by christians!

Greetings.

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/bonnke2.html

Do you know why you believed that article? Because you want to. Suddenly, an anti-church website became a credible source of information about church to you, while news media and actual video recording is not true.
Many of you atheists or anti-miracle people are just too dishonest to yourselves and you think everyone is as dishonest as you are.

If a normal human being hear about miraculous healing of sicknesses- healing is a positive event- what normal people who never thought that could happen will do is find out what it takes to experience that. People blinded by dishonesty and pride, unwilling to believe the truth will start giving their criteria of what should be the way for miracles should happen e.g. "Why didn't Reinhard Bonke raise the people who died in his crusade. His he God? If God used him or others to raise one person that has a relative who dares to believe in Him, how is what happened to others supposed to Reinhard Bonke's responsibility?

The most foolish set of people I have seen are those who insist there is no God yet they only have theories and propositions- no proofs- of how everything began. And they are never ready to accept any evidence from other people's point of view. If it is not what they believe an evidence should look like, it is not an evidence although they were not there when everything began. Very foolish way to live.

akintom:
Nope.

Even if you wish or pray it that i should start desiring to hear voices, that no other person can hear and see what no other person can see (hallucination, dementia, schizophrenia and delusion), it will not happen.

Am glad i can live among rational humans, as against among seriously challenged folks in religious/mental confines.

You need to read the Ops post again. You're beginning to sound like Dawkings.
In psychiatry, people's experiences are not used in isolation to define them as mentally ill.
May God help you face reality because, in my opinion, denying the existence of God and insisting so is the true delusion and living in denial.

Keneking:
Minus one

So Buhari's government could not build a case at least to contest the conviction.....useless government

If it were to be someone from the North, would he keep quiet? Nonsense

If that's how it works, what did ex-President Jonathan do in all his years in Government. Or didn't u read that he had been so sentenced since 8 years ago?
You're not even ashamed that they caught someone from your country smuggling Marijuana.

Must you use every opportunity to display your disloyalty to Nigeria and expose your unwillingness to change?

akintom:
Putting it to you, real God doesn't exist. It's ok by me.

Ask Him to speak to you in a way you cannot disproof if you want to know whether or not He exists.
If you don't want to know He exists, that's all together a different matter of self-inflicted ignorance.

akintom:
How does this your "real God" look like?

The assumption that the real God must look somehow has no basis. He is Spirit. That's all I can manage to say.

Those who claim that God doesn't exist can be categorized into

1. Those who claim so but will be willing to believe if confronted with a believe-shaking evidence that God exist

2. Those who don't want to believe God exist for reason obvious or not obvious to them

3. Those who believe God exist but don't want to admit it.

I write this to the first two categories of people. I'm including the second because we know that not every fear is objective and, many times, it is in one's best interest to face one's fears.


IS THERE A WAY TO KNOW GOD EXIST?

Yes.
Be honest with yourself and speak out to God asking Him to reveal Himself to you if He truly exist as God Almighty. If He doesn't exist, it will do you no harm wanting to know the truth. Unlike if He exists and you refuse to do this; that will mean being intentionally ignorant and that is reckless.

LightandDarkness:
And religion is a system of faith and worship, which gods, rules, doctrines etc. Also You just suggested atheists are irreligious and irreligious literally means not/absent of religion...

I said "may be religious"
Those dictionary definitions are not real definition but explanations of what exists. It doesn't necessarily cover all about religion. Religion (well, as used in the bible) is just an outward expression of faith which I consider to be a more appropriate definition.

For example, if you claim their is no God or gods yet you worship yourself or some scientists or theories you can be called an irreligious atheist (your believe is incompatible with your expression). Some atheists, for example attend church services and participate in religious rituals.

In the same way, if you believe there is God but don't express it in practice(for whatever reason: peer pressure, fear etc) you are an irreligious theist.

Seun:
As atheists, we should spend less time engaging in endless debates with apologists. Let's focus on people who honestly believe that God is real.

Seun I HONESTLY believe God is real. In fact, I know He is my Father. I don't understand what you meant by "honestly believe" but I'll like you to discuss with me because , by dictionary definition, I have no doubt I do. Awaiting your response to my questions.

LightandDarkness:
Atheism is not a religion. Religion 1. the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. 2. a particular system of faith and worship. Atheism is neither, it is more of a worldview.

To put it simply Atheism isnt a religion like "off" isnt a TV channel.

1) When they start talking about SPIRITuality then they are sending mixed signals.
2) Faith in God or a god or gods etc are VIEWS too
3) Dictionary definition changes with time.
4) Theism is different from religion. One is the believe, the other is the outward practice. Theism vs Atheism, Religious vs Irreligious. Therefore, an atheist may be religious.

akintom:
Why do you always get yourself twisted? How can "spirituality" exist outside religion?

And when does rational atheism started been seekers of spirits?

All because you don't check definition of words......


"Religion is a cultural system of behaviors and practices, world views, sacred texts , holy places, ethics, and societal organisation that relate humanity to what an anthropologist has called "an order of existence ".

Different religions may or may not contain various elements, ranging from the " divine ", "sacred things", " faith", a "supernatural being or supernatural beings" or "some sort of ultimacy and transcendence that will provide norms and power for the rest of life"

Why won't we be right to claim that atheism is a form of religion.

Seun:
As atheists, we should spend less time engaging in endless debates with apologists. Let's focus on people who honestly believe that God is real.

Seun 1) What's would be your definition of "honestly believe"?
2) Is there any scientific evidence backing your subtle assertion that apologists don't honestly believe that God exists?
3) If someone "honestly" believes that God exists, what productive result do you think will come out from a discussion with someone who "honestly" believes that God doesn't exist if none of them (the atheist inclusive) is unwilling to change their minds about the definition of EVIDENCE.

LightandDarkness:
Aren't religious/creationists debaters also guilty of a lot of these?

Thank God someone finally agreed that Dawkins writings swims in fallacies.

Now, to try to assert that someone else is wrong is not the issue here. It's a great virtue to say, "Why! My faults are exposed. I admit I'm wrong."

Lennycool:
The fear of witchcraft is directly linked to the general education of the populous. The more educated the population of an area is the less witches they perceive and vice versa.
Africans think they are the ones that started witch hunting. But the truth is compared to the Europeans we were all learners, yes the white people once believed strongly in witchcraft. The Malleus Maleficarum translated as The hammer of witches is arguably the most damning text in all of literature. Written in 1486 by Catholic Inquisitors, it prescribed how to kill, torture and identify witches. And for almost 200 years it was the best selling book second only to the Bible. The book with sponsorship from the Pope killed tens of thousands of women accused of witchcraft.
But today people in Europe are smarter and no one talks of witches again. Why?
Education my friends is a mind opener.

That you don't fear something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And there are witches and wizards just like there are Doctors and Imams. By the way, they have groups on yahoo messenger (i don't know if it still exist)just like Christian chat rooms existed and they have "churches" or covens in England and the United states. So drop that "European-African" argument

The annoying thing is that people with medical records get healed after prayers and are confirmed medically. People who say they are looking for evidence of the supernatural will not try to verify these claims. Instead, without evidence, they will claim the miracles are staged tricks (maybe because somewhere in their minds, everyone is a liar like them) and then will they be asking others who know and believe what the healed people say to produce evidence.
THOSE WHO REALLY WANT EVIDENCE LOOK FOR IT WHERE THERE ARE CLAIMS OF SUCH. THEY DON'T SIT WITH THEIR COMPUTER ASKING OTHER PEOPLE TO PRODUCE EVIDENCE.

You just stated your believe without evidence. Give facts for your believe first.
By the way, google WICCA covens and church of Satan in California.

Seun:
A witch or wizard is a person who has been granted supernatural powers by 'the devil' and uses them to perpetrate evil against other people.

I don't believe that 'the devil' exists. I don't believe that supernatural powers exist. Consequently, I don't believe witches could possibly exist.

When I read about women and children being beaten and killed for "witchcraft", I feel terrible because I know they're almost certainly innocent.

Do you disagree with me? If so, please share with me the evidence you've come across that has convinced you that witchcraft is real. Thanks.