₦airaland Forum

JeSoul:
Pilgrim & Queen, I add my own "Amen" on top the declaration & the celebration of a saved soul.
na wa oh . . . but comfort is the word of God can never be silenced, it will accomplish the purpose for which it was sent forth.

Let me say halleluyah to that O! God bless you!

^{sorry, let me edit to correct typos!}

Nne plus_Queen,

I just dey! I want to thank you all for your prayers - na now gaaan my eyes open to see how much you all have been praying for me!!

Do you know how many people have written me since we last emailed each other? Long tory short: "Seifa" finally found the love of Jesus Christ!! What is more, she asked me to come take her to church - and I did (although we both got there late and had to stay on for second service). After worship as we went over to hers, she sternly warned me to not engage Muslims in any arguments! My sis, that very warning has continued to pay off, especially because as reindeer said in another thread, testimonies of one's salvation achieve more than shouts across the divide. That is what again we heard in Church, and "Seifa" reminded me constantly about it! I asked if I could share this, and she agreed (although I let her know I would not use her real name).

Haa!! Jesus is truly Lord.

Me, I don finish with arguements - if na only one soul comes genuinely to Christ with the power of what Christ has done, that one is enough!!

Jesus is Lord O! Please join me in celebrating!

Omenuko:
This makes much more sense than what pilgrim.1 is saying. And I think most people will agree with you here. . . .

I hear. It's easy to "agree" with someone who has reasons to argue with Christ by saying:

Are we, all of us, Christians and nonchristians and oh yes, Jesus himself guilty of this direct injusction from the lips of "Master" Jesus? This is an impossible commandment to obey,

Bros, for those who call themselves "Christians" and want to "agree" that Jesus himself guilty of this direct injusction, it is not my worry. The Lord Himself observes all things and all accusations made against Him. What I do know is that He is my only MASTER (Matthew 23:8 & 10).

God bless.

^{>quoting someone above me <}

I'D rather die a 1000 deaths & 1 than b ashamed of d Father Spirit & Son

Amen!

Omenuko,

Omenuko:
It looks like you are arguing for the sake of arguing. I never said that the apostles addressed themselves as 'Pope'.

That's all there is. If they did not address themselves as such, no further argument. The rest is needless noise, thank you.

olabowale:
[s]Just my casual observation, as a layman and a beginning student of religion:

As I read the summation of that verse, Matt 23 Verse, as it is presented above, I will take it that Jesus was the speaker. But his instruction was that "NO MAN," (any male) on earth, should be called "FATHER." If we have to follow it, what was Joseph the Capenter to him? What do we humans, sons and daughters of our mothers call the men who sired us? Are they not our fathers? Are we, all of us, Christians and nonchristians and oh yes, Jesus himself guilty of this direct injusction from the lips of "Master" Jesus? This is an impossible commandment to obey, if you are a daughter or a son of a man still on earth! Fortunately, my father had long passed. May Allah the Almight make him one of the people of Jannah! Amin. So to all the believing males and females (fathers and mothers), who had passed on as Muslims. Amin.



The word "even" throws a dart that stuck on that sentence. It is not clear, what the meaning is clearly. As I read it, it is leading me to believe that but arent you (many from among the people) called Rabbi? And then begin to say that there is a single Master. Even Christ and you (the people) are brethren (brethren as same people; homogenous in culture and language). You will see with better clarity as you read the verse that speaks about God, just below.



Here, you will see that the language of instruction is very clear. Forget for a moment of father, that I disagree with. It is very clear, however there could not be a dart thrown on this verse, as the other one above that starts out with a muddled  effect as one read it. There is no "Even" as a word here. It very clear as a bell, who is been identified as being in heaven. Unfortunately the title of father is wrong and it is impossible to make it unique here, for all the males who boy a child qualifies as a father!



My point on verse is better illustrated when the above is examined. If the word masters were used before Jesus spoke this verse 10, we must be in agreement that there is nothing unique about that title, even as it is further written with upper case M! But the word even but out the smoke that somebody may mistake for a raging inferno.

If a person were to read in a newsprint or some other nonreligious piece, which will invoke a far less emotion, one will not for a moment say the quanity that follows the word "EVEN," is thought of as the single entity that is been made to absorb the quality that is being spoken of, in a loving way, before the word "Even," was written.

We must all have heard at least a person say the word, "EVEN," in a sentence to emphasis that the entity that follows the word even, is not excluded, but rather incorprated into the entity previously spoken about in the action that was prevailing before even, as a word was written.

Let me use the word even in a sentence to show that no one of the entities will have a higher previlege that the others, even though they occur before or after the word even; The wind that was blowing as the rain heavily poured on us, made everyone in the car felt will be blown off the road; even the driver! This simple means that everyone in the car had the same single opinion.



Shouldn't the semitic materials be the better sources of information, on New Testament verses, rather than labor terrible to use Greek? Not same lange and not same land. Jesus was no greek and his land was not being ruled by the Greece. What came to him and how he preached, neither was in greek language. If Jesus were to be alive,right now, whta would he do if he knows that Semitic language is abandoned for Greek, when people speak about his ministry, his works?

It is interesting that I see that master and Master are exactly the same in Greek. Do we truly know what the Hedonic or Helennic people have done to please their raw emotion to that they could fit Jesus mission to their own culture of man made gods they used to worship?[/s]

@Olabowale,

Good afternoon. I have repeatedly said that I have respected you Muslims thus far and never been interested to type anything in your Muslim section. If that cannot go down well with you, no worries. If someone from the Christian section was to go over to the muslim section to question who allah was, the thread would either disappear, the poster would be banned pronto, or the post itself would be deleted. All these issues are clearly confirming the obvious - and that is why I have bid farewell to a religion that is not satisfied with itself until it has demonstrated its restlessness towards other people.

When I left Islam, I knew what it meant for someone to know that Jesus is Lord. I still confess Him as Lord, regardless whatever anyone on planet earth would say against Him. I still know that Moses and all the other peophets who knew God as FATHER were not lying. I still enjoy the ministry of the Holy Spirit in my daily living.

           What has pilgrim.1 done to muslims that they would not let me be?!?

           What has pilgrim.1 done to Muslims that they would not let me be?!?

           What has pilgrim.1 done to muslims that they would not let me be?!?

If you must force yourself to keep denying what the prophets have taught, what is my worry? I left Islam, it did me no good at all - and your attitude is confirming it on a daily basis. . . yet I'm not coming back.

I would rather remain a Christian who has known the love of God the Father than to return to a restless religion that will not let others be. As others have observed, you're only fighting a lost battle! Enjoy.

Jesus is Lord.

@Omenuko,

Omenuko:
let me post it again:

I asked you where any one of the apostles went about with the title of POPE, I haven't seen you quote the verses. Do you mind to do so, please? Thank you.

Omenuko:
My friends. . . .for those who are still reading this, go and look up the καθηγητης for yourselves and see who is fooling who.

I haven't fooled anyone to go check which word was used in Matthew 23:10. You're so frantic to force the Greek word διδάσκαλος (didaskalos) into that verse when it is not there. Just because the NIV and several versions mistranslate a whole lot of verses does not mean we should keep perpetuating their error. Ask, and I'll give you a few more and see if you can conscienciously defend such errors.

Omenuko:
I never said καθηγητης cannot mean master.  What I am saying is that καθηγητης can also mean teacher. . . .that's why many bibles translates it as such.

Those who force that idea of "teacher" are wrong - because they ignore what the texts say.

Omenuko:
As long as you know (pilgrim.1) that most people (scholars) do not favor your view point; this is settled.

I wasn't clamouring for popularity, if that is such a high prize for you. "Most scholars" would actually know that Matthew 23:10 translates that word as MASTER. Should I show you how many scholars did so? Here are a few versions of Matthew 23:10 ~~

              (1) ALT - Analytical Literal Translation
             "Neither shall you* be called 'masters,' for one is your* Master-the Christ."

              (2) ASV - American Standard Version
             " Neither be ye called masters: for one is your master, even the Christ."

              (3) BB - Bishops Bible, 1568
             "Neither be ye called maisters: for one is your maister [euen] Christe"

              (4) DRB - Douay Rheims Bible, 1899
              "Neither be ye called masters: for one is your master, Christ."

              (5) KJV - King James Version
              "Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ."

              (6) RV - Revised Version
              "Neither be ye called masters: for one is your master, even the Christ."

              (7) NCV - New Century Version
              "And you should not be called 'Master,' because you have only one Master, the Christ."

              (8.) HCSB - Holman Christian Standard Bible
              "And do not be called masters either, because you have one Master, the Messiah"

               (9) WNT - Wycliffe New Testament
               "Neither be ye called masters, for one is your master, Christ"

               (10) WEB - Worldwide English Bible
               "People should not call you "Master". You have one Master. He is the Christ."

               (11) TNT - Tyndale New Testament, 1525
               "Be not called masters for there is but one youre master and he is Christ."

I could give you many more - and all the above all used "master" instead of teacher because they know they are not the same, nor did they try to confuse the terms.

Omenuko:
I'm not understanding you. . . .I told you way back when that we (catholics) call our pasters 'father', because they are our spiritual fathers in Christ.  You then brought up the Pope.  I gave you the meaning of the word 'Pope' and why we use the term 'Pope'.  You then came back and said Mathew 23:9 forbids us from calling someone father in an official way.  Ok, where does the bible forbid us from calling our pastors father in an official way.  I then posted scripture for you of Paul calling himself the spiritual father of one of his followers, you then posted:

Again, the term 'Pope' means 'father' (see above).

Understanding me is easy, if you cared. None of the apostles went about with the title of POPE.

More than that, if you assumed they did, I simply asked how many POPES were in the churches during the apostle Peter's day - you have always ducked that one and never thought it wise to offer an answer.

Next, I tried to help you see that Matthew 23:8-10 reminds us what the Lord said, and that is when you frantically starting running to non-Catholic websites to cut and paste. If I showed you matters from any website at all, you would hola back with your grand excuse that "they are ANTI-Catholic websites"!! You are just such a laugh! Well done this afternoon!

@Omenuko,

Omenuko:
Did you not read the above. . . .So when I address someone as Mr. such and such. Am I not giving them the title of Master.

The title Mr. does not apply to Church offices, so please don't play this childish games.

Omenuko:
The root of the word 'Mister' is derived from the same word as 'Magister'.

Does not mean therefore that the warning in Matthew 23:8 & 10 are thereby negated. Master in ecclesiastical circles is not mister.

Omenuko:
Go and look up the etimology of the word mister.

I have; and in no instance was anyone gullible enough to use that as a translation for RABBI.

Omenuko:
According to pilgrim.1 we have to stop addressing people as mister because we are giving them the title of 'master'.

Omenuko, please where did I say so? Can you be grown up enough to quote me as to where I said so?

Omenuko:
So, now the cat is out of the bag. The NIV and most other bibles translates it as the above. I looked up that greek word also and this is what it means:

καθηγητης noun - nominative singular masculine
kathegetes kath-ayg-ay-tace': a guide, i.e. (figuratively) a teacher -- master.

I said so before: [list][list][quote author=pilgrim.1]some use the term "teacher" as the definition of RABBI, and we could bear with such; because even though they ignore its etymology, they also note that it is derived from the Hebrew (rabh) and therefore connotes the idea of a commanding officer such as a magister (master). So I could well bear with the explanation and extend a genial acceptance of your own point of view as long as you know that the verse in question was actually inferring 'master' instead of teacher.[/quote][/list][/list]

Please understand - "καθηγητης" is "master" in Greek, not "teacher". There is another Greek word for teacher - διδάσκαλος, and it does not mean that same as "master".

So here: they are not the same and cannot be confused simply because the NIV is confusing them.

"καθηγητης" - Master
"διδάσκαλος" - Teacher.

As far as ecclesiatical authority is concerned, Christ in Matthew 23:8 & 10 said we should not address men as MASTER; but he did not say we should not address men as teacher. The confusion for many is that they are forcing the word teacher into Matthew 23:10 and using that as an excuse to teach that men can therefore be called FATHER! This roundabout excuse is still missing the point - because Christ never said what these men are teaching - and that is why they continue to switch the actual terms and insert "teacher" in Matthew 23:10 where the actual word is MASTER.

Do not confuse "καθηγητης" for "διδάσκαλος" - they are not the same!

Omenuko:
So, for those who are reading this judge for yourselves who is twisting what.

I'm sure they can see that "καθηγητης" is not "διδάσκαλος"; and you need to go sort out yourself on which word was used in Matthew 23:10.

Omenuko:
Most bibles translate that as teacher and the meaning of the word 'Magister' (from the Catholic Douay Rheims and the Latin Vulgate) also can mean teacher or guide.

I noted that most people mistranslate these words because they ignore the etymology of RABBI. I have said so before. . . I have said so repeatedly. . . I have demonstrated it in 4 clear outlines. I don't see where you took the time to show where they dealt with it and showed you to correct word. You seem to be running away with weak ideas and sweating to force your presumptions into a vacant canvass. I implore you - go back and see what Greek term was used in Matthew 23:10 - and call that "teacher" if it helps your conscience. Afterwards, I'll come back and ask you further questions that will help you see the point.

Omenuko:
You seem to only want to use that word in the sense of master.

Nope, I clearly showed where either word occur and it's not in my place to forcefully change them as the NIV did.

Omenuko:
And this argument of official and unofficial title stuff is you blowing hot air.

Excuse me? Who between us used the word "TITLE" at first? You make me laugh!

Omenuko:
I posted what the word Pope means and told you why we call him the Pope.

And I showed you clearly why none of the apostles went about with the appellation/title/designation of POPE.

Omenuko:
Where in those passages does it say we can call people father but not officially (i guess this is according to Pope pilgrim.1)?

If it please you: where in that verse did it say we can call people FATHER or POPE?

Omenuko:
If I have an adopted son are you telling me that he cannot officially call me father even though I'm not his biological father?

If you can show me how that means the same thing as negating what Christ said in Matthew 23:9, then please do. You're funny - you should have asked and argued this issue with Christ Himself who clearly said "call NO MAN father" in that verse. You failed to see its meaning and just making noise to force yourself further with this issue. No wahala, I like to keep people like you sweating until you exhaust yourself on your weak arguments.

Omenuko:
Nonsense. . . .that child would be my son and I his father. . . .officially and unofficially.

Good. Go apply for an official and unofficial POPE in the Vatican.

Omenuko:
I remember singing this song when I was a child: 'Father Abraham had many sons and many sons had father Abraham. I am one of them and so are you. So lets just praise the Lord (well I think thats how it goes). So according to the all and wise pilgrim.1 this song is wrong, abi?

I have not passed myself as ALL and WISE, I beg your pardon. This panic display is showing that you're frantic and have nothing to your argument - for the simple reason that you have not carefully checked the context; nor are you interested in what Christ taught in Matthew 23 thereto.

Omenuko:
And look at the passages below. The below passages from the bible show how we (catholics) view our pastors.

1 Corinthians 4:15
Philemon 1:10
Mathew 3:9

Please where in any one of those verse is the word POPE?!?

@Omenuko,

Let me help you clear the case about RABBI.

The reason why Matthew 23:8-10 is understood to be MASTER (καθηγητής - kathēgētēs) and not "teacher" are:


(1) The Etymology of the word RABBI
This word does not stand on its own, nor is it a Greek term without roots preceding it. Scholarly sources tell us that its root rabh predates the Greek and is an Hebrew term meaning “master”, while the “i” points to the pronoun “my” (hence, ‘my master’).

(2) The Derivatives of the word RABBI
Also, I already shared that the derivative of the word would present a problem for those who hold the ‘teacher’ definition in Matthew 23:8 & 10; because when you ask what the endearing term RABBONI means, you find the same interpreters coming back to the word ‘MASTER’. This would only indicate a lack of consistency and purpose in such versions criss-crossing the terms.

(3) The Application of the word RABBI
In its practical application, the word Rabbi is an official title of honour, and from the texts gathered so far, we know that only one is properly qualified in honour of that term in the Christian faith – the Lord Jesus Christ, as is evident in that same verse:

           Matt. 23:10  -  ‘Neither be ye called masters (καθηγητής - kathēgētēs):
                                         for one is your Master (καθηγητής - kathēgētēs), even Christ.’

That verse says clearly that ONLY ONE is our MASTER - the Lord Jesus Christ.
           

(4) Consistency in Use of the word RABBI
The 4th problem is that those favouring the idea of merely ‘teacher’ face the difficulty of consistency in its use. For example, in Matthew 23 we find such versions as the NIV use the term ‘master’ in verse 8 and then switch back to ‘teacher’ in verse 10 for the same Greek word; and the question would be: why this inconsistency?

Here are the verses 8 to 10 in Matthew 23 AGAIN in NIV~~

             ‘[8]"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have
              only one Master and you are all brothers. [9]And do not call
              anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is
              in heaven. [10]Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have
              one Teacher, the Christ.’ ~~ [NIV]

Both ‘master’ and ‘teacher’ are the same Greek word (καθηγητής - kathēgētēs) in those verses; so why the inconsistency of switching between MASTER and TEACHER where the Greek term is the same?!? Meanwhile, there is no such word as "teacher" (διδάσκαλος) in Matthew 23:8-10. Go and do some simple checking and let your heart admit to God's truth.


(5) The case of the RCC versions of the Bible
The Vulgate and the Douay Rheims Bible (DRB, 1582 and 1899) are two early Catholic versions of the Bible which use the word ‘master’ (instead of ‘teacher’) in Matthew 23:8-10. Although the more recent and revised Catholic versions use the word ‘teacher’ in that verse, it is instructive that early translators used master in keeping with the etymology of Rabbi – and this was why I asked you earlier to check again, Omenuko. Let me quote that verse as given in those two versions:

            8 But be not you called Rabbi. For one is your master;
            and all you are brethren. 9 And call none your father
            upon earth; for one is your father, who is in heaven.
           10 Neither be ye called masters; for one is your master, Christ.
                            ~~ [DRB, 1582 and 1899]

            8 vos autem nolite vocari rabbi unus enim est magister
            vester omnes autem vos fratres estis 9 et patrem nolite
            vocare vobis super terram unus enim est Pater vester qui
            in caelis est 10 nec vocemini magistri quia magister vester
            unus est Christus       ~~ [Latin Vulgate]

What is the meaning of the latin word ‘magister’?

MAGISTER
Noun
1. Master; sir; -- a title of the Middle Ages, given to a person in authority, or to one having a license from a university to teach philosophy and the liberal arts.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)

Date "MAGISTER" was first used in popular English literature: sometime before 1509. (references)

Etymology: Magister \Ma*gis"ter\, noun. [Latin expression See Master.]. (Websters 1913)

source: http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/Ma/Magister.html (not an anti-Catholic website).

WHY is it that even the Catholic Douay Rheims and the Latin Vulgate recognize that the word in Matthew 23:8 & 10 is MASTER?!?


Dear Omenuko, I think it helps one's heart to carefully go and check the truth out. It is actauly a loss to your cause if you keep peddling ignorance and pretending not to notice what Matthew 23:8-10 is saying. If those verses were not using the Greek terms for MASTER, please kindly furnish us with the terms used there.

If this is going to just be a wasted exercise chasing the wind because the truth is too much to digest, I bid you best wishes and may only come back where you say anything of interest. If you can't find the alternative word in those verses, please don't waste internet resources arguing aimlessly.

Regards.

Dear Omenuko,

How body?

Omenuko:
Your hatred for the catholic church is too much. Jesus says not to call one another 'rabbi', 'father', 'teacher'. Look at the way you are trying to twist your way into adding your interpretation into the scriptures.

First, I do not hate anybody. If pointing you to what Scripture says is so painful to be borne with, let me know, and I would oblige you to remain absolutely ignorant of what the same Scripture says. But to assume that my telling you the truth is tantamount to hating anybody. . . please carefully hold your tongue.

Second, I have not twisted anything presented in those verses. Where I made a mistake in John 1:38, I had the dignity to own up and not push my own agenda. If, on the other hand, Matthew 23:8-10 uses the word MASTER and not teacher, why should I be twisting it to say otherwise what it does not say? If you know something else that those verses said that I twisted, please simply state it so and let us all learn.

Omenuko:
Any you say we catholics are twisting God's word. So in your bible verse ten above has 'master' and not teacher?

Precisely.

Omenuko:
Anyway, thats beside the point.

Omenuko, if it says anything other than what I pointed, please share. Don't just sweep it under the carpet and continue to hold heated feelings where none exists.

Omenuko:
What I'm trying to get you to look at are Jesus' other commandments and him telling us to not call one another rabbi, father, and teacher.

In Matthew 23, the Lord Jesus clearly taught that:

~ we should not call anyone RABBI - v. 8

~ we should not call anyone FATHER - v.9

~ we should not call anyone MASTER - v. 10

He did not teach that there are no TEACHERS. Please check again.

Omenuko:
You say we shouldn't give people the title of father. Pilgrim.1 you seem like a reasonable person. . . .Are you also saying we shouldn't give people the title of teacher, rabbi or of master.

Phew - go and check again: the word TEACHER was not used in the text of Matthew 23:8-10.

Omenuko:
. . .my friend, what does 'Oga' mean. In Igbo we say 'Nna m ukwu' (boss/master). You are stretching this too much.

I did not use the term 'oga' as a title for you, lol. So who's doing the stretching here? I used it in anticipation that you would predictably be using the same tactics I have found many Catholics use when faced with the issue of Matthew 23:8-10. They will resort to "my language says we use oga and Nna m ukwu" blah-blah-blah, etc. I simply ask them if that is what their popes are called. Result? I get insulted like I called for the abolition of the Vatican! Here, wake up: we're dealing with official titles, bros - I have pointed it out that you have often referred to TITLE. Haba!

Omenuko:
You are puting your own. . . .should I say it. . . .twist to the passage.

Sorry, I did not write the Greek manuscripts of the Bible in verses 8-10 of Matthew 23. If you find anything other than what I stated there, please show us the correct Greek terms and their meaning in English.

Omenuko:
Reading stuff into the passage that is not there.

In Matthew 23:8-10, please show us where you find the term διδάσκαλος. If it is there, please show us. On the other hand, I pointed out that the word used there was "master" (καθηγητής - kathēgētēs) - if you don't find it there, please tell us what is actually there.

Omenuko:
You posted verse 9 without posting Jesus' other commandments (in verse 8 and 10) to show something that was not there.

WHY are you making this pitiful accusations where you pretended that I did not post them? Here again:
[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=116335.msg2867965#msg2867965 date=1222676177]⁸[/b]But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your [b]Master (καθηγητής),
even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

⁹[/b]And call no man your [b]father upon the earth:
for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

¹⁰[/b]Neither be ye called [b]masters (καθηγητής): for one is your Master (καθηγητής), even Christ.[/quote]. . . did I not quote verses 8 and 10 there? And did you not quote the same verses 8, 9 and 10 when you quoted me? What is this game you're whipping up here?

Omenuko:
Hoping that nobody would go and read it for themselves.

Stop whinging. Because I don't want anyone to be confused, I quoted all the verses. This is beyond our age, Omenuko.

Omenuko:
All this stuff are from anti-catholic websites.

So, the Bible quoted for you is an anti-Catholic website? You simply have no genuine substance to your debate and arguments. So after this, I'll just leave you to keep making noise. One can no longer reason with people who refuse to open their own Bibles and yet close their eyes to hoot this excuse of "anti-Catholic" websites. Haba!

Omenuko:
Shame, shame. . . .

Thank you. Thank you. The verses are there, and they are not websites!

Omenuko:
Another question, you still did not look at those verses I posted.

Phew! What have I examined in detail, Omenuko?

Omenuko:
We have Paul and Peter (i think) referring to themselves as father[b]s[/b] of many of the early christians. In those same verses they are calling the followers of christ 'my children'. What were they doing?

They were not calling themselves POPES! How many popes were going about in early Christianity?

@Omenuko,

Edited:

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=116335.msg2865895#msg2865895 date=1222624464]

Omenuko:
Does your translation have master instead of teacher?

Yes, my translation says MASTER and not teacher. The word teacher is not what was meant by the Greek term Rabbi. Can I then take it that your explanation is wrong?[/quote][quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=116335.msg2865915#msg2865915 date=1222624811]Omenuko,

Please check again. You're wrong.[/quote]I beg your pardon, I actually made a mix up in John 1:38 - you're right, the Greek term used in the original in that verse is "teacher" (διδάσκαλος - didaskalos) and not master (καθηγητής - kathēgētēs). In humility, it were better for me to own up to the truth of God's Word than push my own agenda (". . and lie not against the truth" - James 3:14).

However, in Matthew 23:8-10, the word twice used there is "master" (καθηγητής - kathēgētēs) and not "teacher" (διδάσκαλος - didaskalos).

So, as it is, I started out by pointing that in Matthew 23:9, the Lord taught that we should call no man on earth "father", which is clear in context that such a term is not to be taken as an official title among Christians. However, you wanted us to look at all three verses of that chapter - that is, 8, 9, and 10 of Matthew 23. That being so, the words used are precisely as I have demonstrated earlier:

                  ⁸[/b]But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your [b]Master (καθηγητής),
                  even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

                  ⁹[/b]And call no man your [b]father upon the earth:
                  for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

                  ¹⁰[/b]Neither be ye called [b]masters (καθηγητής):  for one is your Master (καθηγητής), even Christ.

Well, as you can see, I started out with Matthew 23 and the case still stands: the words there are masters and Master (καθηγητής) - same word in Greek; not teacher. There are teachers in the Body of Christ; but only one is Master - the Lord Jesus Christ:

           Matt. 23:10  -  ‘Neither be ye called masters (καθηγητής):
                                   for one is your Master (καθηγητής), even Christ.’

It is on that note that I made the point that we should be careful to not ascribe titles to men which were not meant to be so ascribed.

Blessings.

reindeer:
Dear brothers and sisters in christ

its been about 96hours since jesus called me to himself, this has been for me the most profound 96hours of my life and i have seen two of the threads that dwell on salvation achieving a whole lot more than those with arguments.

I have experienced firsthand the power in testimonies, i saw how one testimony brings about more and more to the chagrin of the devil.

@reindeer,

Jesus is truly Lord! I don't know how many people have written me by email saying just about the same thing highlighted in the quote above. Sometimes I had been tempted to engage in theological debates on the Forum; but often when chatting on YIM, those who try to persuade me to refrain seem to reach me where words cannot - and that's why I relax and let their wisdom prevail.

May God bless and strengthen you always, meet the deepest longings of your heart, and also use you increasingly to touch the lives of others. Jesus is Lord.

@Omenuko,

Omenuko: ol. . . .Ok, let me post the full context:

Mathew 23:8-10

'You, however, must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers. 9 You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor must you allow yourselves to be called teachers, for you have only one Teacher, the Christ.

Wrong. Matthew 23:8-10 reads:

[8] But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ;
and all ye are brethren.

[9] And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father,
which is in heaven.

[10] Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

The word teacher is a wrong translation in verse 10, and I've shown you why above.

Omenuko: What about these other commandments of Jesus? When you say “call no man father,”

Still holds - Jesus warned against such, and none of the apostles went about with an official title of "Father".

Omenuko: they must also argue that we cannot call any man teacher or rabbi, either.

Christ never said no man could be called a 'teacher', please go and see.

Omenuko:
1. Rabbi (master)
2. Father (father)
3. Teacher (teacher)

Wrong. The correct order is:

1. Rabbi - Master (verse 8.)
2. father - Father (verse 9.)
3. master - Master (verse 10)

The words in verse 10 are master and Master - and I've shown this above.

Omenuko:
So, I guess we are not to give people the title of teacher, ee kwa?

Christ never said so; nor did I say so either. The Bible shows that the Lord gave the gift of teachers to the Body of Christ (Ephesians 4:11); He did not say that men are not teachers, so your argument here is mute.

Omenuko:
Go back and review the passages I posted regarding the apostles referring to themselves as spiritual father[b]s[/b]. . . .and present your take on them.

I have done so, and found that none of the apostles went about with an official title of Father, Pope, Pontiff, or Your Holiness. Spiritual father[b]s[/b] (plural), if used as an official title at all would indicate that there were more than one Pope in Peter's day - but none of them ever used such as a title.

Shalom.

@Omenuko,

Omenuko:
1. Rabbi (master)
2. Father (father)
3. Teacher (teacher)

So, I guess we are not to give people the title of teacher, ee kwa? Go back and review the passages I posted regarding the apostles referring to themselves as spiritual fathers. . . .and present your take on them.

Here we go again with circular arguments. Which one of the apostles referred went about with "spiritual father" as a title? Which one of them went about with the official title of POPE?

Let me even stretch it for you:

~ which one of the apostle[b]s[/b] went about with the official title of "pontiff"?

~ which one of the apostle[b]s[/b] went about with the official title of "Holy Father"?

~ which one of the apostle[b]s[/b] went about with the official title of "Your Holiness"?

These all are titles of the same office - the Pope. It would be interesting to see where any one of the apostles went about by any such titles.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Besides, when you made this statement:

Omenuko:
Go back and review the passages I posted regarding the apostles referring to themselves as spiritual fathers.

. . . it clearly shows you're just throwing words about carelessly without weighing their implications. You used the words "apostle[b]s[/b]" and "spiritual father[b]s[/b]" in the plural. One would have to wonder that if "father" is the same thing as "pope", then how many apostles referred to themselves as spiritual father[b]s[/b]/pope[b]s[/b] during the time of the apostles? I asked you earlier to go and find out how many bishops there were during the time of the apostles - and you smartly ducked that one forever. I knew sooner or later you would bring yourself back to the same agenda because it is unavoidable when you discuss issues like this.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Thirdly, it seems that you had conceded that Rabbi is MASTER and not teacher. Clap for you, Omenuko. I was hoping you would come back and argue to the contrary with the same weak assertions, and then I would have walked you through a systematic analysis of the term even from Catholic sources as well.

I know a lot of people today confuse concepts by throwing words carelessly about - and unfortunately, some of our English translators have been as careless in their versions of the Bible. Actually, depending on the context, some use the term "teacher" as the definition of RABBI, and we could bear with such; because even though they ignore its etymology, they also note that it is derived from the Hebrew (rabh) and therefore connotes the idea of a commanding officer such as a magister (master). So I could well bear with the explanation and extend a genial acceptance of your own point of view as long as you know that the verse in question was actually inferring 'master' instead of teacher. In anycase, the point is made: none of the apostles went about with an official title of MASTER or FATHER.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


There were 'teacher[b]s[/b]' (plural), but that was more a function than an official title among the apostles or early Christians. We find that this function (not official title) was recognized among several leaders (such as Barnabas, Simeon, Lucius, Manaen, and Saul (later Paul) in Acts 13:1). Others could mature in their developments to be teacher[b]s[/b] (Heb. 5:12); and again the term is used in the epistles not as an official title such as the Catholic Church now thinks of it, but rather as a function of the service that various men render in the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:28 and Eph. 4:11-12).

However, even if one were to argue that men were recognized as teacher[b]s[/b] in the early Church, it still does not negate what Christ taught in Matthew 23:8-10. Let me quote you again and then show how wrong you were:

Omenuko:
1. Rabbi (master)
2. Father (father)
3. Teacher (teacher)

Let's understand something you're missing here, dear Omenuko: the word in Matthew 23:8 & 10 is the same - not teacher but rather master (καθηγητής - kathēgētēs). What this means is simple, and the KJV puts it so well:

⁸But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master (καθηγητής),
even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

⁹And call no man your father upon the earth:
for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

¹⁰Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master (καθηγητής), even Christ.

Now, what we have here in Matthew 23:8-10 is:

1. Rabbi - Master (verse 8.)
2. father - Father (verse 9.)
3. master - Master (verse 10)

That is why I asked you to go back and check, dear Omenuko. I would not have asked you to do so if I had not checked it out myself. Oga, na "master" dey those verses 8 and 10, not teacher. None of the apostles went about with an official title of MASTER or FATHER. If e dey your own Bible, please show us whether it was Paul, Peter, James, or John that used those terms as official titles for themselves.

God bless you plenty.

I was actually hoping you would look closely again; but since you rather had quoted from a source and run with it, not worries - let me give you the simple definition of the word Rabbi:

(1)  Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionary:

        G4461
             ραββι
             rhabbi
             hrab-bee'
             Of Hebrew origin [H7227] with pronominal suffix;
             my master, that is, Rabbi, as an official title of honor: - Master, Rabbi.

(2)  Pronunciation: \ˈra-ˌbī\
       Function: noun
       Etymology: Middle English, from Old English, from Late Latin,
       from Greek rhabbi, from Hebrew rabbī my master, from rabh master + -ī my
       http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rabbi

There are other sources one could find for an etymology of the word. However, even when some sources use the word teacher, they fail to observe something crucial - its derivatives. For those who hold the idea of teacher, what would they say about the endearing term "rabboni" (John 20:16) used by Mary at the resurrection in addressing the Lord?

Edit

In anycase, one may take teacher as the meaning of the word Rabbi - but that would only be in terms of ignoring its etymology. What is important at the end of the day is that almost all authorities agree on one thing: it is a term that is used as an official title of honour, and that is what the Lord pointed out - that such terms should not be used as official titles among the apostles.

Omenuko,

Please check again. You're wrong.

Dear Omenuko. . . broderly. . wait small!

Omenuko:
@pilgrim.1

In my bible John 1:38 says:

Jesus turned and saw them following him and said to them, "What are you looking for?"  The said to him, "Rabbi" (which translated means teacher), where are you staying?

Does your translation have master instead of teacher?

Yes, my translation says MASTER and not teacher. The word teacher is not what was meant by the Greek term Rabbi. Can I then take it that your explanation is wrong?

[quote author=A_K_O link=topic=176510.msg2865541#msg2865541 date=1222616837]All threads about the forum/moderators/members go to Nairaland section. Thats why I moved it.[/quote]Hi A_K_O,

But from the discussion so far it does not appear that this is about the forum, or about moderators, or about members. The title may have suggested it so; but that was because the other thread was locked. Anyhow, enjoy.

@mentor k,

Okay, I just figured - you're not "Hamza", sorry. What happened was when you posted this:

[quote author=mentor k. link=topic=176510.msg2865385#msg2865385 date=1222614318]hey, how are you today, i wonder if you arte there and i wont like to be replying the thin air, u there?[/quote]Actually "Hamza" was chatting with me on YIM and asking too many questions; so I invited him as a guest to come to talk on the forum so others may benefit from his opinions - since he said he was going to sign in soon, I had mistaken him for you. However, he had just come back and said that he didn't feel like signing on to Nairaland. Maybe another time. Sorry for the mix-up, mentor k.

@Omenuko,

Omenuko:
Your opinion is dully noted. . . .during the selection of the next pope I'll ask them (cardinals) to come to you and get your take on the whole thing. You who do not study the writings of the early church (who were catholic) and want to come and preach bible to catholics from your shortened protestant version. . . .lol

I study the writings of the early church, although they were not Catholics. Even so, I do not use them as Scripture; and I'm sure the cardinals in Catholicism do not need to wait upon me.

Omenuko:
Do you celebrate Christmas? Do you know how it came about? Do you know what institution established the celebration of christmas (I'll help you: the Papacy).

Okay, I hear. I just stated that I never asked you a question about December 25, so I don't see the relevance to the simple questions I already asked.

Omenuko:
Lol. . . .what I meant was, Mary et al. knew that Jesus was the Lord before Peter.

Ok.

Omenuko:
lol. . . .Ok, let me post the full context:

Mathew 23:8-10

What about these other commandments of Jesus? When you say “call no man father,” they must also argue that we cannot call any man teacher or rabbi, either.

The apostles did not refer to any Christian as Rabbi - the meaning of Rabbi is MASTER -

'Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them,
What seek ye?
They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,)
where dwellest thou? [John 1:38]

As can be seen in your direct quote of Matthew 23:8, Jesus did not mean for any one of them to refer to the other as Rabbi - (ie., MASTER); and none of the apostles used that term for anyone among themselves.

Omenuko:
Let me post other scripture to put these verses into perspective. No, better yet, before I do that pilgrim.1 tell me what this passage means to you. Give me your personal interpretation of the it.

As above, using the example of Matthew 23:8 which you interpreted Rabbi for teacher, the context is clear that Jesus meant for them not to use that title or term in addressing one another.

jennykadri:
who's this one again?

I wonder.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Em, mentor k, please I need to ask a question - nothing serious, but just out of curiosity. Are you "Hamza" I was just chatting with online on YIM about 20 minutes ago?

My broda Chrisbenogor,

I dey enjoy Sunday plenty o jare. The questions wey you ask are understandable. Believe me, I struggled with them all as well as deeply affecting theological questions like the Trinity, theotokos, the wars both in the Bible and Quran, the arguments viciously ranged from atheists against belief in God, philosophical arguments of science against theism and all the "-isms" I can remember. It's been a very interesting life of mine to have gone through all those issues and come out finding faith in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour. You will notice that whenever such debates come up on the forum, I have peacefully left or avoided them for two reasons:

(a) I have said that what settled the deepest question in my heart was not theology;
rather, it was the power of an experience I just could not deny

(b) often times, people raise such questions not because they are interested in God or
even searching for faith in God.

How did I struggle through all these things and still find faith in Jesus Christ? Did I ever try to excuse those questions away? What can I say to people or even anyone at all to benefit them when facing such questions in heir own hearts? How did I learn to ask the real questions instead of the vicious attacks I once used against Christians and Jews in my debates before I came to Christ?

So many more questions (plus the ones you may subsequently provide) are the things I have hoped to share with you and our friends in the thread you raised about my whereabouts the other day. I had hoped to settle down today, as I'm not in the office, and share these issues in hope that a lot of people will benefit and be refreshed - not because I would be doing theology and teaching Bible; but rather to help them see what power broke me down and gave me grace. The reason why I have delayed so far is because some of our Muslim friends are so "attracted" to pilgrim.1 that they would not let her be! To this end, I have posted a simple request to olabowale to please let me know if he wants pilgrim.1 to leave Nairaland for him and his folks - I would oblige him (and I know why I'm saying so).

When the tide is calmer, I'll take time and share with the house how it all went with me. People are asking loads of questions and sometimes it is difficult to chat with people online - so I just simply log out of my YIM and answer emails. Anyhow, I'll try and take the time to share more.

Thank you for your patience and reason again. many blessings.

[quote author=mentor k. link=topic=176510.msg2865421#msg2865421 date=1222614720]every christian would have been a moslem if there parents were moslems and vice versa. we don't have to defend what we got by inheritance,  trust me[/quote]My parents were Muslims, our extended/nuclear/conjugal family were all muslims; I grew up in a Muslim home - all these things I have shared already. But I became a Christian. Where does that leave your thoughts?

@Omenuko,

Omenuko:
How many times do I have to say it. . . .the scripture is silent on whether or not Peter was Bishop of Rome. We have to rely on the testimony of the early christians to prove it or disprove it. So that means, you will have to find writings from the early church, historians, etc. to disprove (or prove) the fact of Peter being the bishop of Rome. Its like saying Shaka Zulu wasn't the leader of the Zulus because its nowhere in the bible. Is your head correct?

Thank you, my head is correct.

The one thing I asked, you haven't given me - that's why I asked in another form. If you still cannot give any substance to your claim, no worries. However, that many people make Peter the first Pope of the Catholic Church without foundation from God's Word is the reason why Catholics continue to fail to substantiate these assertions thereto. This is the reason why I was trying to make the question easier for you by asking that you carefully examine what the connection between Bishop and Pope might have been from Scripture. Since you don't have that one as well, no worries.

Omenuko:
Again, the bible doesn't say anything about celebrating christmas. So, you are still celebrating a non-biblical holiday.

I never asked you anything thereto. Please remained focused and let's deal with one issue after another.

Omenuko:
Ok, you are right. . . .Mary knew (since she is the Mother of God), Elizabeth knew, and John the Baptiste knew and maybe others.

What are you talking about? How did Mary, Elizabet and John the Baptiste know that Peter was the first to prclaim Jesus as Lord?

Omenuko:
Peter is the first among the apostles. . . .The papacy is just a group of people (i believe of mostly bishops) that help the pope in governing the church (spreading the gospel, correcting false doctrines, helping those who are less fortunate, etc.). The word 'papacy' is nowhere in scripture. Just like the word 'trinity' or 'easter'.

Peter being called first by Christ among the apostles does not establish him as a Pope of anyone. I asked you a direct question about Matthew 23:9 - I didn't see you answer that one.

Omenuko:
I believe Peter was the first bishop of Rome and during the course of his bishopric (not sure if thats a word) there was no other bishop of Rome. I hope that answers your question.

Hmm, if I were you I would not be so assertive. You mentioned that it does not matter where the place is, and one could be a bishop, right? That's why I asked you to find out how many others were Bishops besides Peter. I am convinced that when you calmly search out the answer, then you will find what you have been misinterpreting.

Omenuko:
The term 'Pope' just means spiritual father. Peter was given the authority to lead the church by Jesus. Let me answer plainly, Peter was not "Pope" because of the title "Bishop".

Okay, thank you for that plain answer. Now my concerns: what is it that made Peter the POPE and how do you reconcile that with Jesus' warning in Matthew 23:9?

Omenuko:
Madam, more anti-catholic website stuff. . . .I know you have to be smarter than this.

I haven't even gone there, so what's the worry? Or is Matthew 23:9 not in your Bible again?

Omenuko:
Oya, post Mathew 23:9 and lets talk about it. Since you want to go there.

See am:

"And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. "

@Cayon,

Let me first answer your questions simply and then point out what again you're missing:

Cayon:
I've work and dealt with Jews and don't remember meeting a kind hearted one? You?

I've met several kind-hearted Jews while I was a muslimah and also have many Jewish friends who endured many harsh things from me in the past. I haven't worked with a Jew, though, I know some who have professional jobs.

Cayon:
Who crucified my Saviour Jesus Christ?

Jews, with the hands of Gentiles.
Think for a moment: if Jesus was not crucified, where would you be?

Cayon:
Who cried out Crucify Him, Crucify Him?

Jews. Today every nation under heaven hates Jesus Christ as well.

Cayon:
See link below to refresh your memory.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEdPmuPoixk&feature=related

Thank you for the link - will check it later.

Now, let me show you what you may have been missing in my reply earlier: slurring other people does not demonstrate that we are better than those we accuse. To wish for a modern Hitler against them depicts the condition of our own hearts even while we cry "my Saviour Jesus Christ". However one looks at it, antisemiticism (prejudice against or hatred of Jews) is evil.

javalove:
There are conversions everyday. People enter Islam daily so whats the fuss about someone leaving Islam. Conversions would continue to happen till end time. But my doubt in ur post is where u said islam teaches uou to hate jews and xtians!!!!! sofri sofri madam. What did u know about Islam while u were a muslim?

A friend of mine just converted to Islam too I did all the preaching I cud do before the left for holland, he didnt listen but he found the truth where he is now!!! so wats d big deal.

Well for xtians reading this post, they would say u have found the light and for muslims like me, if u die in this state of urs, u are hell bound!!!!.

If we start posting conversion stories here everyday, una go tire!!!!

Hi @javalove,

When I finally obliged the invitation to share my testimony, I made 3 things absolutely clear:

~ the testimony was not about me being an attraction; rather it was Jesus Christ that is glorified

~ I did not want to turn my testimony into a platform for theological arguments

~ I have been verbally attacked many times since that evening by Muslims inundating my email with bitter language.

Now, if you want to be sure, you could open a thread and invite me to share with you what I knew for certain that Islam taught me and still teaches until this very day in many respected mosques around the world. I have documented evidence to show this, including books, pamphlets, encyclopedias, names of Islamic Councils, individuals and Imams, video clips, audio clips, and websites to check - all recognized, circulated and published by Muslims themselves.

I have not sought to make anyone of those things any part of my testimony - and I have categorically stated that I won't go there, as well I have respected that statement. The other thing I expected people to do is contact me by email and ask questions. An email where I was called a liar several times because the emailer had not read his quran, was posted and simple answers followed. If you want me to share with you on the fact of what Islam taught me, then please by all means get in touch by email (p_romanio@yahoo.com) so I can show you in an amicable manner. I would not like to post such matters here, and that is why I simply have avoided the tendency for muslims to make my testimony into a theological debate.

If there's no big deal about my conversion, why are Muslims so disturbed about pilgrim.1?!? What did I do to any one of you, for God's sake? Like I said, rather than escalating some seething disturbance to any one of your folks, I simply asked and I'm asking again:

If you are so restless because of what God has done for me,
please simply let me know if you want pilgrim.1 to leave Nairaland for you.

Thank you.

Omenuko:
Madam pilgrim.1 we have thoroughly explained to you and Davidylan what we catholics practice and the misconceptions (maybe even lies) you guys are throwing at us.  Posting things from anti-catholic websites and such.  Oh, you think we don't know.  Well sha, nah that be between you and God.  People should read through this thread and view it for themselves who is twisting what.

Hmmm, na wah O! I quoted from Catholic websites, and in your efforts to throw in a frisby you came back claiming that they are anti-Catholic websites? Even the Catholic website where Pope John Paul's words were quoted is now an anti-Catholic website too?

Wow! There is only one thing I have for you: if you are asserting that your Catholic websites are now "anti"-Catholic, then let's dance to it!

Omenuko:
Glory to Jesus!

Amen bro, amen!

@Omenuko,

Omenuko:
Finally, you guys are acknowledging that Peter went to Rome and died in Rome.

That's quite disingenous, Omenuko. Asking questions does not mean one is admitting to your fallacy. So far we have only waited to see simple answers from Scripture; you can't wave circular reasoning in our faces and adduce from such that we are finnaly admitting - "admitting" what?

Omenuko:
. . .Your second question, how does this translate into being the bishop of Rome?  Well, did you read the testimony of some of the bishops of the early church about Peter being the bishop of Rome.  Like I said before the bible is silent on whether or not Peter was bishop of Rome.  In other words you (as the case with me) cannot prove from the bible that Peter was not the bishop of Rome.  I acknowledeged that earlier.

>sigh!< >still waiting for simple answers!<

Omenuko:
But, like I said before. . . .[size=14pt]YES! Peter was bishop of Rome.[/size]  Another thing, it be like say you people keep changing topic of this thread.

Okay, you don't have to shout. "Peter was bishop of Rome", I hear. Can I see you establish it in Scripture now?

Omenuko:
Confession good or bad -----> are catholics saint/Mary worshippers ------> Peter did not go to Rome ------> Babylon doesn't mean Rome ------>
Peter was not bishop of Rome -------->  Testimony of early christians are biased catholic talk ------> Peter was not the Pope

When I started it simply, Catholic answers were like words flying all around the place. An example, I don't remember asking to be reminded about December 25 before you spooled off on that one. That is why after my penultimate response to yours, I simply outlined what the real issues were, so that you will not predictably come back with the same complaints.

Omenuko:
The above is good. . . .you get no argument from me. . . .Mary was the first christian. . . .lol

Na your mouth I hear am! No be you talk say na Peter first proclaim that Jesus is Lord?

Omenuko:
The word Pope came from the latin word for 'father'.  In the early church to term Pope or Popa was used to refer to ones bishop.  In other words most bishops were referred to as 'pope'.  Over time it became to be solely used in referring to the successors of Peter (although the coptic church. . . .the church of alexandria, still refer to their bishop as Pope).  The word Pope is not in the bible, but all over the New Testament the apostles refer to themselves as spiritual fathers to the early christians.  That's just what the pope is, he is our spiritual father.

Thank you for the lesson.

Now, please show us where Peter occupied the office of the Papacy in Scripture. Granted: you said the Pope is not in the Bible, no wahala. That one which you have tried to enunciate, can you show me from where it is in the Bible, even though the term is not used there?

Also, since you made the inference that the word Pope is from the latin for 'father', em. . . can you reconcile that with what Jesus said in Matthew 23:9?

Omenuko:
Answer 1.  Lets see, John was the last apostle to die (i'm not sure when that was), but I believe he lived through the first three bishops of Rome (Peter, Linus, Anecletus).  You find this in the bible, you will have to read through church history.

Hmmm, you scored 2/20. . . which translates to about 10%. You owe me 90%!
Okay, on a serious note, I asked how many bishops there were during the apostles' time; not how many apostles lived through 3 bishops! Kai! You read the question or you just make up your own exam?

Omenuko:
Answer 2.  The bible is silent on whether or not Peter was bishop of Rome.  Again, you will have to rely on the testimony of the early church christians.

Okay, I hear. Good attempt. Results next time, be patient.

Omenuko:
Answer 3.  I think you are misunderstanding us catholics. . . .Peter could have been bishop of anywhere (Alexandria, Corinth, Jerusalem, etc.).  Where he was bishop doesn't really matter he still would have been the first pope and the head of the apostles.  Not because of his own authority or of him being a bishop.  He is the pope (our spiritual father) because of the authority given to him by Jesus Christ in Mathew 16:18.

Hahaha!! I anticipated this answer actually!!

Don't mind me - I have often caught a lot of Catholics making this same mistake; not because I deliberately wanted to trip them - just simply to help them see how difficult their arguments are for themselves.

Anyway, the question was: "3. Was Peter a "Pope" because of the title "Bishop"?
I didn't ask if Peter was was Bishop because of Rome; so the idea of Alexandria, Corinth or Jerusalem does not arise. All I have seen is an assertion that seriously lacks facts. Any attempt as a second go will be welcome.

Cheers.

@Olabowale,

olabowale:
@Pilgrim.1: Aburo. I guess you became the star attraction. Its like the flavor of the month at Dairy Queen. Or is it the latest invention since slice bread? Mo pe e, mo kon sie. O dami lowun. She o binu ni? Ma binu. Iya mi. She o ri pe mo ni suru gon? Tokon e ba bale, kee simi. Ko nshe kristieni nikon lo ni lati ma ba soro o. lol.

I have respected you and all Muslims in many ways by leaving your muslim section and not typing anything there. Nowhere have I tried to make myself a star of attraction, and I categorically stated that I didn't want it to be so interpreteted:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-175953.0.html#msg2854785

"Folks, could I come back and post the sequel after the heat cools?
I don't want to be the center of attraction here.
Jesus Christ changed my life; and that is Who gets the glory.
How He did this is what I will share next."

Your attitude is confirming the veracity of my experience as a former muslimah: Islam gave me only one legacy - hatred for Jews and Christians - and you're showing that it runs in the blood.

I was delivered from that lifestyle and have continued to love those I formerly hated while loving and respecting every Muslim as well. I left Islam, I'm grateful that God saved me, I'm not coming back to a lifestyle of seething hate against Christians and Jews. You can follow me all around and constantly malign me; but the only thing you're doing is give me good reason why leaving Islam was the best choice I ever made, and I'm thankful to Jesus Christ for that.

Dear Olabowale, I don't owe you anything but love in Jesus Christ. All that your attitude demonstrates is confirming what I have shared. If you are so restless because of what God has done for me, please simply let me know if you want pilgrim.1 to leave Nairaland for you.

Thank you.

Chrisbenogor:
why don't we add heartless and wicked to the list.

@Chrisbenogor,

How body? Well, only very few people take the idea that Hitler did those things without saying that God sent him. So, that is one thing that is often excused so that this same issue keep spinning in rounds. Think again about the number of people who have done the same thing to many others without claiming that God sent them. So now what? It is amazing to me that this worn out repetition ad hominem is the perfect excuse for many who fail to look in their own hearts. I only pointed out the example of the OP to show how very easy it is for us to slide into the bane of antisemiticism while feeling ourselves better than our accusations against others. If we add heatless and wicked to the list, it is no less true of each an everyone of us both corporately and individually; and for all that, some people have demonstrated in history that they do need God's help for mass murder. The problem is that we like to assume that those others are a "child's play" without weighing the implications of our own hearts.

Again, let me identify some of the issues which Catholicism as a system is practising but which we find completely opposite to the message of the Bible:


   (1)     making of graven images of Mary or any of the apostles or saints

   (2)     bowing down to any graven images

   (3)     worshipping any graven images, serpent, cherubim, or man
                                         (whether latria, dulia, or hyperdulia)

   (4)     praying to Mary or any one of the apostles, angels, or saints

   (5)     referring to Mary as THE SAVIOUR of the people of Rome

   (6)     the idea of any bishop or apostle being referred to as POPE

   (7)     the rites of the Rosary

These are very few of the issues involved in our discussions so far. Because they have been well dicussed in other threads much earlier and shown clearly to be without foundation either in the Bible or among the early Christians in the days of the apostles, I often do not like to engage in protracted arguments where our friends have been unable to show them directly from Scripture.

Yeah, I know - you guys don't practise Scripture, so anything is permissible. That being so, it makes much sense to simply say you don't take your rites from God's Word and do as you please. That is more dignified than endlessly filling pages with roundabout arguments and yet not be able to simply identify where you find your foundation in the same Scripture you boast of putting together for us.

Blessings all the same.

continued from previous page. . .

Omenuko:
If thats the case, the bible that you are reading is a biased catholic book.

Sorry, if that is what you think, the accusation is to your own account - and God will hold you responsible for that. When you discuss with me, there is one thing you will never see me do - accuse the Bible, God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit or any one of the Biblical characters with such illiterate remarks. It doesn't matter how heated the debate may be - I simply watch my words and not go there. If you want to keep up this accusation against the Bible, don't try to credit it to me: it's up to you to watch your tongue.

Omenuko:
Ok, my friends (pilgrim.1 and Davidylan) if Peter wasn't the bishop of Rome, who was the bishop of Rome?  Just because Paul did not acknowledge Peter in the book of Romans does not mean Peter never became bishop of Rome.  Just because Paul evangelised in Rome does not mean Peter (leader of the apostles, given the keys to the kingdom of heaven, first to proclaim Jesus is lord, given a name change to Petros (aka Rock)) did not either.  The early christians called Rome the city were both Peter and Paul taught, and yet still call Peter the bishop of Rome.

Circular arguments again, my dear. Just one thing, first: after the resurrection, it was not Peter who was first to proclaim Jesus as "Lord". Infact, Peter was not the first to find out about the resurrection -

   (a) Mary was the first to speak of Jesus as 'Lord' after the resurrection:
                "Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord,
                 and that he had spoken these things unto her" [John 20:18.]

   (b) John was the next to use the term 'Lord' after the resurrection:
                 "Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter,
                  It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord,
                  he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was naked,) and did cast
                  himself into the sea." [John 21:7]

In Acts 2, Peter and the apostles rose to speak to the crowd about the resurrection, and many believed (verses 14, 36, 41).

All the above are not from traditions of the early fathers - they can still be read from the Bible you boast so much about but cannot use. I apologise upfront if you're still struggling within yourself to find simple answers. But if you do have anything of substance to share with us, please save us the eyesore of circular arguments and share with us as simply where you find Peter was a POPE as well the Catholic rites you have been seeking to defend weakly.

Many blessings.