₦airaland Forum

[quote author=A_K_O link=topic=169302.msg2776918#msg2776918 date=1220981413]Fastest growing chred[/quote]wonderful 'chred' indeed!

@justcool,

justcool:
My dear pilgrim you are right in the above(Although I don't know what you mean by[b]Tritheism[/b])

A quote:

[list][li]"Tritheism is the belief that there are three distinct, powerful gods, who form a triad. Generally three gods are envisaged as having separate powers and separate supreme beings or spheres of influence but working together."
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritheism[/li][/list]

So you see what I mean?

justcool:
The human words can never truly convey the concept of trinity which is divine.

You're absolutely right, bless you.

justcool:
Jesus, The Holy Spirit, and God the father are one and inseparable.

Amen. Glory be to God.

justcool:
Jesus is God, or God is in Jesus; The same is applicable with the Holy Spirit. God is one and not three. By using of the word "part of God" to describe Jesus and the Holy Spirit, I do not wish to infer that God is three. I don't believe in three separate Gods. There is only One GOD, which is in Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and God the Father.

I understand you, bro.

justcool:
Now about God or The Holy Spirit being inside believers.
I have studied the verses that you provided and I believe that when they said that the Holy Spirit will dwell in you, it is a figure of speech that should not be taken literarily(actualy). For example they say that God dwells in the church, this does not mean that God actually lives in that Church.

Well, I don't think that the Lord Jesus spoke in a metaphorical sense when He declared the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the believer. It is a statement of fact as all the references will show.

However, that does not mean that He never spoke of the Spirit in figurative terms. Yes, He did - for instance, where He said that "out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water (John 7:28)". This is not to be understood as a literal statement, but rather as a figure of speech, as explained in verse 39.

justcool:
If God is inside you literally, then what is the difference between you and Jesus?

The fact that God dwells in the believer by His Spirit does not mean that the believer automatically becomes Jesus. I was given a tape recently by a friend whose pastor taught that when we receive the Spirit, we become everything that Jesus ever was - the pastor went on to say that such a believer becomes the very Word of God! I listened patiently to the end of the tape, but sadly had to confess that the pastor was dead wrong!

When we receive the Spirit, we don't forget for a moment that only Jesus Christ alone is the Head of the Body, He alone is the Lord and Saviour, and He alone is the Lion of the tribe of Judah (Rev. 5:5). If there was no difference between the believer and Jesus Christ, I wonder why there was found no man that was able to "open the book and to lose the seals thereof"!

justcool:
God cannot be inside or in a human being, only his power and his will and can be inside a person. when they say that God is in you, it is a figurative statement signifying that you have completely merged with the will of God and theirfore God works through you.

I can only state again that when you carefully study the Word, you will see that the Holy Spirit actually is declared to dwell inside the believer.

justcool:
This idea of God dwelling inside humans sounds like the notion of some eastern mystics who claim that we are all parts of God. They claim that humans carry God within them. This is blasphemy and self worship.

Christianity is not like some oriental mysticism. It is a reality that does not glorify itself in self-worship. The oriental mystics made the fatal mistake of stretching their concept of God's unity as a matter extending to matter itself - a form of hylotheism (the doctrine of belief that matter is God, or that there is no God except matter and the universe).

justcool:
What is inside us is spirit, not Divine or Divinity. Only God is divine. The human spirit can never become divine or carry even the smallest particle of Divinity within it.

Okay then. I only ask you to consider 2 Peter 1:4 --

[list][li]Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.[/li][/list]

justcool:
man is a creature and not part of the creator and can never carry the creator within him.

Indeed, man is a creature. . . and only in the regenerated man can God dwell.

justcool:
Even the whole universe cannot carry God.

True, but God is pleased to dwell in man by His ubiquitousSpirit.

justcool:
Thanks and remain blessed

You too, bro.

Hi Pataki,

Glad to see you're here also. God bless you plenty.

Now to your questions:

Pataki:
Would you be so kind enough to explain further between Trinity and Tritheism?

Gladly.

By Trinity, I understand the concept of the Godhead more as a matter of the Triune God. The word Trinity connotes different things to different people, and yes I believe in the Trinity as well. However, I'm persuaded that the word "triune" is closer home than I can convey in sharing this matter. It denotes that God is one and indivisible. His unity is given to us throughout the Bible in terms of the Godhead - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - hence we read very early that God said: "Let US make man" (Gen 1:26).

This "US" is not a question of separate Persons doing different work - it simply means that God is tri-unity in a way that is distinct from how we understand numbers. A good reference is John 1:1 where we read that the Word is God Himself and yet "with" God.

Pataki:
While I clearly note from your quote above that trinity points to inseparableness of of God, I am also mindful to know that it is a Godhead that functions in three differen[/b]t or [b]separate categories of operation.

God works in many ways past our finding out (Job 9:10). But in His essential Being, He is inseparable, although the Son is distingusihed from the Father, as is the Spirit distinct from the Father and the Son. When we assume to try and "separate" the Person of God Himself into "modes", we come to a dead-end with the question the Lord Jesus asked the crowd in His day: "If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?" (Matt. 22:43-45). The point there that stunned the crowd was that there was only one LORD, but to the casual and careless reader who reads Psalm 110:1, there seems to be two Lords - an idea that is directly opposite to divien revelation. Any wonder why no one answered that question?

Pataki:
Would you therefore imply from your post that tritheism is a subset of TRINITY?

No, rather tritheism is a very different matter and bears no semblance to the Trinity. When scrutinized, tritheism is simply belief in 3 Gods - which is not what the Bible teaches.

@justcool,

justcool:
What believers(children of God) can have within them or in their Spirit is the Power of the Holy Spirit and not the Holy Spirit itself. This is only logical considering that you cannot have another person dwelling in you.

The problem here is simple: human beings are trying to measure God the way we measure ourselves. That should not be so. God in His omnipresence is able to be in any place at any time and through any person. He is not bound by physical elements, time or space - He is ubiquitous.

justcool:
You cannot have my dwelling in you but you can have my power or you can work with my power.

Well, as can be seen above, the Scripture says that He dwells in us.

justcool:
If you agree that the Holy Spirit is a person and not just a force like the JW claim then you must agree that you cannot have another person dwelling within you at the same time with your spirit.

Is a demon known as "person" or a force? If you agree that a demon can be understood as a living being with faculties such as man possesses, then the case is not difficult to understand what is known as "demon possession". This is when a living being takes possession of a man and lives inside that person! This is why you find that when the Lord Jesus Christ cast out demons, His word was clear:

[list][list][li]Mark 9:25 -- "When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him."[/li][/list][/list]

Think for a moment: this sinister spirit exercises the properties of a living being with personality:

[list][li]. . . he could be spoken to[/li][/list]

[list][li]. . . he could hear what was said to him[/li][/list]

[list][li]. . . he could respond intelligently to the Lord's command[/li][/list]

[list][li]. . . he could also speak intelligently (compare Mark 5:7-9)[/li][/list]

Now, that was simply an illustration on the negative side to share with you that another being can indeed dwell in a human being!

Further, remember what the Lord Jesus said about the dangers of an "empty house" in Matthew 12:43-45?? When a man seems to be satisfied with the idea that he has been delivered and does not need to have God's Spirit dwelling inside him, the enemy will find an "empty" house in that man and demons will take up residence in him. Ican't say it better than Jesus:

[list][li]When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.[/li][/list]

The point is clear - yes, a living being (which is here used as a "person" can dwell inside another person!

Moving on quickly to the positive side: God is a Spirit (John 4:24), and we know that this Spirit is a Living Being - the very "Person" of God Himself. The question is: does this divine Living Person live inside man? And the answer is quite simple: Yes, He does - because He said so Himself!!

[list][li]1 Corinthians 3:16 -- "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"[/li][/list]

There I rest my faith.

justcool:
If in the case of possesion, the possessor first pushes away your spirit before posesing your body. But the Holy Spirit cannot posses people because possesion is evil and God cannot do evil.

The demon does not "push away" a human spirit - for a man without his human spirit is only a corpse.

justcool:
It is the power of the Holy Spirit that the apostles received on Pentecost and not the Holy Spirit Itself.

If that were the case, the apostles would not have been inspired to let us know that the Holy Spirit Himself lives inside us.

justcool:
If you read John 16:13 carfully you will see that Jesus was talking about a person to come and not just the power that the apostles received on the Pentecost day.

That very Person to come was the Holy Spirit - He came according to the promise of the Lord Jesus Christ and dwells in those who believe (John 14:17 -- "for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you".

justcool:
I repeat: What dwells inside every man on earth is the human Spirit(the Breath of God) which originated from the kingdom of God and which is a part of the Kingdom of God.

Okay.

justcool:
Hence Christ said to the pharisees:
" The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (Luke 17, 20 and 21).

Remember the pharisees are not believers, but yet the kingdom of God is within them. The kingdom of God is within every man, but only few listen to it. i have already explained this in my earlier post.

I appreciate your earlier explanation, but I'm persuaded that the traditional misconception that many people apply to Luke 17 is what you have given here. . . and in due course I shall show why that is not accurate.

Shalom.

Dear justcool,

Once again, thank you for putting your views across with reason. I love that.

justcool:
What you wrote above is a popular Christian belief and interpretation which I disagree with.

Well, I cannot be 'right' or 'popular' most of the time - and that is the beauty of a discussion: to be agreeable and disagreeable at some issues.

justcool:
The Holy Spirit is the third person in the trinity. Just as Jesus was part of God, the Holy Spirit is also a part of God.

I am not sure that is what Scripture persuades me to believe. The idea that either Jesus or the Spirit is "a part" of God implodes into numerous questions that will be hard to defend from God's Word. Jesus is God and so is the Father and the Holy Spirit. I think the mistake many people make when trying to understand God is that when they speak of the Trinity, they are actually thinking of Tritheism.

The difference between the two concepts is that Trinity points to inseparableness of being (more properly "Triune" - we thus can distinguish between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; but we cannot separate them. On the other hand, it is tritheism that separates between them, and that is why many people have such a difficulty understanding the mystery of the Godhead.

justcool:
The Holy Spirit is a person just like Jesus. It is impossible for any creature to have a part of the creator within him. Therefore it is impossible for the Holy Spirit to be inside a human being.

Well, at the backdrop of this persuasion, my conviction is that the Holy Spirit actually lives inside a born again believer. Here is my conviction:

[list][li]John 14:17 -- "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."[/li][/list]

[list][li]2 Corinthians 13:5 -- "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"[/li][/list]

[list][li]1 Corinthians 3:16 -- "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"[/li][/list]

Well, that is not a sample of "popular" belief; but if the Bible decalres it, I'm humble enough to not argue against it but rather rejoice therein.

If I could just develop this thought a bit further. You know, this indwelling of the Holy Spirit is what forever separates the Biblical faiths (Judaism and Christianity) from all other religions. The religions of the world at best speak of God "with" them or God "for" them. However, how many faiths do you come across who speak of God "IN" them? When Christ came into the world, we have the blessing that is found nowhere else:

[list][li]God is "with" us -- Matt. 1:23[/li][/list]

[list][li]God is "for" us -- Rom. 8:31[/li][/list]

[list][li]God is "IN" us -- 1 John 4:4[/li][/list]

It is this concrete reality that is lacking in many people's fellowship with the living God. For He whomade our bodies to be His temple is actually living inside of us - He is not building us into an empty temple; rather, He is living inside those who call upon the name of Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Moyola:
Aterere kari aiye!!!

Wow! Repeat again!

FifiO:
Question: Is a miracle glorifying Jesus Christ evil, does it decieve?

It all depends on what is meant by "gloryfying" Jesus Christ.

Perhaps this is the sort of thing that the Lord Jesus warned us against in the endtimes. Remember that:

[list][li]Jesus said many will come in His name (Matt. 24:5, Mark 13:6, Luke 21:8 )[/li][/list]

[list][li]Jesus said many will claim to be working miracles in His name (Matt. 7:22)[/li][/list]

[list][li]. . but Jesus will proclaim that He never knew them! (Matt. 7:23)[/li][/list]

I am not against miracles done in Jesus' Name to glorify God. But more important than that is what the Lord warned us to watch out for: that our names are written in heaven (Luke 10:20).

Amen. Halleluyah! Amen!

He IS Father

He IS God

. . . but have life

. . . may not perish

He says "WHOSOEVER"       _{John 3:16}

He welcomes all

He is FATHER

naomijt:
be damned forever

_{. . . just show him love, he can't resist that.}

God is love

Gamine:
What do these pose for us?

Well, IMHO I think it all goes to show that science is breaking forth into new frontiers -especially where science as a tool is handled responsibly.

But like you said, perhaps there is a line (or may I say a certain 'boundary') which science may not be able to cross. The reason behind this thinking to me is that science does not seek to answer the question of "why" as regards the reality of life or our observable world. It is this fundamental question that worldviews and philosophies graple with, and especially on the question of moral principles, the natural and physical sciences are said at present to be inadeqaute tools of measurements.

olabowale:
to his people

You are invited!

. . . the Living Bread         _{John 6:51}

. . the good Shepherd _{John 10:11}

so do I

Well, the line ought to be drawn somewhere, somehow, someday. . . and I think many voices are beginning to be raised about that.

It's clear that science will continue to bring us many amazing things - many of which we thought impossible. A few other things that are getting people excited already is the work on a project to fabricate an "invisible coat". The process is founded on the principle of bending light rays so that at a critical angle whoever wears the coat would appear invisible to others. This is for real.

However, as was hinted at before, the big question is on the moral and philosphical grounds on scientific enquiries in our day. Of course, many scientists understand that the physical and natural sciences do not concern themselves with moral questions or aesthetic enquiries, yet these concerns cannot be disregarded. I have in mind the kind of science that people conduct with reckless disrespect and abandon for the quality of life. But that is another issue entirely.

Anyway, what is clearly before us is that even theistically inclined minds who engage in science understand that it is a tool and not an end in itself. To such ends, science should be handled responsibly.

olabowale:
begged his Lord!

. . .called God "FATHER"

Ahem! _{cough cough}

But Abraham was a man of God, abi? Was his wife not super-pretty as well? Abi wetin make the king of Egypt in his time drool for Sarah?

. . . Son of God.

People sef. . ! Relax, Obama is not the Antichrist.

. . . you're a leader

Hmm, I'm excited about this. Seriously.

Calm down, people, calm down. Let us understand that science is a marvelous thing that can achieve "wonders". . . things were never dreamed were possible. And this is just the beginning!

A few decades ago, man panicked when he heard some of his restless kids mooting the idea that one day they would fly big machines through the skies! "Impossible!" cried the grandfathers. The kids smiled. . . and in time, not only were the big machines flying through the sky, but they were carrying people as well! Welcome the age of aeroplanes (or 'airplanes' if you like)!

The 'kids' then took it one step further by mooting the idea that they would take this heavy machines to outer space. Before the grandfathers scratched their beards, we woke up to hear of Sputnik 1!

You get the drift? Cool.

But what is the concern here? I think what gets a lot of us alarmed is not the science itself but the questions surrounding our moral and philosphical outlook on life. That seems to be where the big question is.

most certainly yes

@nwakaibe,

nwakaibe:
So pilgrim1, at Christ embassy, we dd not embark on name calling.

I don't think I accused BLW of embarking on name calling. And if we can be fair to ourselves, one wonders that even on this forum the first thing to strike any reader is the unhealthy attitude of some BLW replies which are quick to denounce others as "of the devil" simply because the BLW brethren in question were unable to proffer answers and clarifications to the statements they made.

KunleOshob:
The day churches start spending their millions on helping the needy and the less priviledge instead of distributing "millions" of booklets (advertising materials) and the church not making noise (advertising) about it then i would believe that christ is finding his way back into the church

Well, bros, in my view there is nothing wrong with distributing any amount of booklets (and may God Himself increase such a work done for Him). To be fair, BLW claims it helps the less privileged - amen. Others also do the same. . . amen too. I don't have "millions", but may God increase my capacity to make a difference in the life of people - one person at a time. Amen? Amen!

The question I often ask myself is this: which one is more important to me between these two:

(a) spending more of my time fishing out the "phoney" among us. . . or:

(b) spending more time seeking to make a difference in one person's life?

Hey. . . that question was for me O! Anyhow, whoever Dem say na this or dat, may God help me to do the more important. Amen? Amen! Again. . . amen O!

@littleb,

littleb:
Neither do I have issue with pilgrim.1 nor sharing her testimony. The main point is why are you so unbalanced in your reasoning and attacking Islam and the God(Allah) who created you ignorantly.

I'm glad to know that even if you don't share my testimony, you don't have issues with me - that indicates at least that we can rub minds on issues in an amicable manner.

Often times, what you may be complaining about is actually the very thing that Muslims do. They have been quite unbalanced and attacked the very Biblical faiths they claim were revealed by allah in the Qur'an. Perhaps as a Muslim it is easy to accuse others as being "ignorant"; but if one makes such allegations, the better thing to do is share your answers in a friendly manner so that doubts and 'ignorance' are dispelled.

littleb:
You never study Islam and compare it with what you believe.

But what if I actually have studied it and compared it with so many other religions. . . until I became born again by receiving the salvation found in Christ?

littleb:
You rebuked Muhammad being a prophet of God and lay infallible to the human handiwork.

It all depends on what you assume to be infallible.

littleb:
I think many people have proved it fallible.

Perhaps so. . . if you meant the Quran.

littleb:
It is a combinations of many books with many unknown authors with many contradictions therein.

The Bible is a collection of several books which were penned by several authors that were inspired by God. If these men were contradicting themselves as you allege, then the Quran is making a false claim when it states that Allah revealed the same books that you are criticizing!

If your accusation was against David, Moses, Solomon and several other prophets, did you forget that Muhammad got to know these names only through the Biblical faiths? Were Moses, David and Solomon the "unknown authors" that Muhammad spoke about in the Quran? Did Allah in the Quran claim that he sent down the books of the Law (Torah), Psalms (Zabur) and Gospels (Injil) by "unknown authors"?

Yet, the wonderful thing about the claims of the Quran is that Muslims are asked to respect the Biblical scriptures and read them! Before you accuse Christians of being "ignorant", perhaps you may need to consider the fact that your Quran explicitly states that Christians are far more intelligent than your accusations (see for example, Quran 5 v 82, Yusuf Ali).

littleb:
So, why you lay false accusation on the book(Qur'an) which you never read.

I have read it through and through.

littleb:
Nay, the truth is there for you to find out; your Lord God is nobody other than Allah.

That is not true. Is Allah known as the same God whom Jesus Christ called "FATHER"?

littleb:
He is the one (not trio) who created Jesus and Muhammad and made them His prophets.

He is not the one whom Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Jesus Christ addressed as "FATHER".

littleb:
If you care to know the truth, read Qur'an and compare with what you called infallible.

I do not find anywhere in the Quran where Muhammad ever agreed with Moses, Isaiah or Jesus Christ in addressing God as "FATHER". Do you care to show me?

Blessings.