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Christianity Etc › Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by pilgrim1(f): 2:29pm On Sep 12, 2008

@Chrisbenogor,

Chrisbenogor:
@pilgrim
My sister body dey inside cloth oh, still feeling bad that I lost my cool last night though, but I guess that makes me human.

No worries. . . we are all human. I have lost my cool so many times on the Forum; but I learnt to settle down and be more coherent and sane in my discussions after the experience.

Chrisbenogor:
I didnt see you on that thread lol must have had fun on the side lines.

Lol. . . I was deeply tempted and gritted my teeth as I watched the banter; but I didn't want to wade into the hot tempers.

Chrisbenogor:
Seriously how many christians believe other religions would partake in paradise?

A serious answer is this: I believe IMHO that Romans 2:4-14 gives the clue. Verses 7 and 8 especially highlights the two sides that people often struggle with: (a) "to them who by patient continuance in well doing", contrasted with (b) "unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth". One can claim to be a "Christian" and still be ridiculously contentious as well; so I don't see the question simply as a matter of "religions". I think it's more coherent to understand the question more as a matter of relationships than of religions. God often sets the former (relationships) before us, and not so much the latter; and I think that the problem people have about such is because they often confuse the two and generalize them one and all only in terms of "religion".

Chrisbenogor:
The question even confuses me because other religions have their own definition of paradise

I have no problem with anyone's definition of any concept. Here is where I would like to borrow from davidylan's wisdom: Christians endeavour to share the Gospel with everyone - it's all a matter of choice. If people, however, begin to borrow from the Bible to build their own religious worldviews and at the same time castigate the Biblical teachings, that is where Christian apologetics come to the fore - simply, the defense of the Biblical faith against misrepresentations deliberately caliberated for the very purpose of false accusations against the veracity of Christian theism.

Chrisbenogor:
so how does one enter into something he does not believe in?

Good question: the very thing that I had to struggle with before I became a Christian. I wondered how it would be possible to believe at all in the very same thing I previously attacked. . . and up until now I cannot put in words the spiritual experience that brought me here, but I know that many intellectual exercises (theological, teleological and philosophical) have helped to shape my thinking. Bottomline: I had to make a bold resolve to stop deliberately misrepresenting people's convictions - and that was a huge step that has helped me to this very day.

Chrisbenogor:
Surely not the same God would order women to cover their body in Islam and let them be free in christianity?

Well, that is a volatile question - and I don't want to be insensitive to my Muslim friends here. Many people have the misconception that it is the same God that is being worshipped between Islam and the Biblical faiths. Now, apart from the intellectual arguments, I am convinced that each faith is quite definitive about that question - and that is why I simply hint to my muslim discussants to note that the Quran declares they are not the same God. Period.

Because public opinions often mistake this, I hitherto have only been hinting about it but have never quoted any references; yet, in both the Quran and the Hadiths, there are numerous declarations to that point.

So, in answer, I don't want to get into protracted fissures on that - but simply state that the question is self-evident.

Christianity Etc › Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by pilgrim1(f): 1:43pm On Sep 12, 2008

@Olabowale,

olabowale:
I want to know if the Bible are capable of justifying how God becomes a father, when He is aways the Creator?

I have said this so many times till I'm wondering if you're deliberately under a special spell that you cannot read. The Fatherhood of God does not include the idea of "sex" - I quoted a few references where it is used (in my reply to littleb) to show that as regarding Isreal, it was simply a matter of His covenant relationship with them; as pertaining to the Messiah, it applies to two things primary things - more importantly the Resurrection.

olabowale:
Except that your Bible is written down by the Ispired Writers, who are different from the "Prophets"!

Did the Quran refer to Moses and Isaiah as "different from the Prophets"? If yes, please quote the sura. . . and if yes again, why are Muslims quoting the same Bible to "prove" Muhammad's prophethood?

olabowale:
The word Trinity does not appear in any part of the Bible, yet those people who claim to be Christians all accepted it!

True. . . the word "bridge" does not appear in the Quran; but Muslims accept it in hope of crossing over and not falling into hell fire.

olabowale:
Is there anywhere in the Bible that Jesus says, "Listen, I am god, a partner of God the father, who He and me and holy spirit, are each part of the same GOD"? I want to read it. If no onecan present it, then, that is lie or the first order!

Is there any place where Jesus said, "Listen, I am not God, not the Son of God, and God is not the Father"? Please dear sir, if there is such a place, can we read it?

This attitude of ferreting doctored questions is no longer a viable tool. I once argued with a muslim 'scholar' about this, and i'm so ashamed to reprint the stupid things he said against even Muhammad. . . and went so far to shamelessly said that Allah can forgive him, because we were just "talking". While I will never make such denials and caricatures against the prophets, what struck me is the propensity of some Muslims to easily damn their souls against their own consciences in the name of "just talking".

olabowale:
And there is not verse that the muslims accept from the Bible that contain the word father!

I know - afterall you said earlier in the deleted section yesterday that Muhammad received a revelation of denials. So if he also denied what Moses and the prophets taught, what is my worry?

olabowale:
Finally, again, the Inspired writers words can not be 100% trusted!

Okay then. . . we now know why we should not trust the Quran, afterall Muhammad claimed in it that he was inspired just in the same way as those prophets. In order to ridicule the prophets, you unwittingly ridicule and make nonsense of your own Quran. Olabowale, I'm not vexed at all; but even when you are averse to other people's belief, do you have to make senseless statement without realizing how they reflect on the Quran as well?

Just so you know, you can check the following, where Allah claims that inspired Muhammad in the same way as the Biblical prophets: Sura 4 v 163 -

[list][list]"Verily, We have inspired you (O Muhammad SAW) as We inspired Nuh (Noah) and the Prophets after him; We (also) inspired Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Ya'qub (Jacob), and Al-Asbat [the twelve sons of Ya'qub (Jacob)], 'Iesa (Jesus), Ayub (Job), Yunus (Jonah), Harun (Aaron), and Sulaiman (Solomon), and to Dawud (David) We gave the Zabur (Psalms)." [Hilali-Khan][/list][/list]

Now, Olabowale, by your own very assertion that "the Inspired writers words can not be 100% trusted", then by extension nothing Muhammad said in the Quran can be trusted 100%.

Christianity Etc › Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by pilgrim1(f): 1:22pm On Sep 12, 2008

Hi Olabowale,

Thank you for trying once again to fill pages with claims that have already been settled as empty. I wasn't surprised yesterday that after you claimed Muslims never refer to Muhammad as "Lord", that whole section was immediately deleted after I gave the clear evidence - both from individual Muslims as well as the Islamic Supreme Council of America. What are you guys really afraid of?

I know again that if I should provide evidence to dismiss your fresh untennable assertions, the sections would be deleted. . . or worse yet, the entire thread itself would vanish. ^{[*Mr Hussein who sent me an email, thank you. . . but that is the reason why I never came back to post answers to your numerous questions: such answers would have been deleted].}

olabowale:
Dishonesty as play. What litteb said what no gospel according to, Matthew, Luke and John, in the Qur'an, as the Gospel revealed to Jesus! I guess when people are playing this type of slight of hand, one will have to ask, are the 4 gospels in the bible the only gospels supposedly written by the disciples of Jesus? I know there is another set of writers who finally penned the 4 accepted, since they were under inspiration of the ghostly spirit! But thats another matter!

We have gone through that debate: I provided answers, asked questions - and I never saw you or your friends in those threads ever again. What was the result? You went off in a huff and declared you would never speak to me again - why are you so restless and attracted to my posts? cheesy

olabowale:
What is now required that the eminence, in Christianity is to tell us what Waraqa was writing was "Gospel,' and not Bible! Rather, to be specific, the 4 gospels in the present day Bible. And that somehow Muhammad (AS) directly or through somebody got hold of it and used it as the basis of his "Jesus story" in the Qur'an! I remember reading that Waraqa died shortly after Khadihjah took Muhammad to him, simply because he was familar with the signs of thebeginning of Prophethood!

From Waraqa into Muhammad's era and today, no Islamic document can account for a different set of Gospels than the one Waraqa was reading and translating into Arabic. If there was any such, why is it taking for ever for Muslims to just produce those documents and let's read them for ourselves?

olabowale:
Two things I got from the Waraqa episode; he Waraqa compared the experience of Muhammad with that of Moses, and then he wasstill writing the "Bible"! There was no mention of the specificity of which part! One can not say then that he was writing Matthew, etc Godpels! Interestingly, there was no time that Muhammad said to anybody that he read the gospel, privately or publicly. Neither was it ever mentioned that the story was ever told to him. What is important though, is that did he used anything from Waraqa'a on ging, probably unfinished Bible! Why would he talked about the virgin birth and all he refuted is the deitification?

I told you already - the answers were deleted: Muhammad was tested by the Jews of his day about who the Holy Spirit was, and he failed the test. Is there any other reason why he hated the Jews and Christians?

olabowale:
Please magic is not allowed in islam. I am sure there are some muslims practicing magic and worse things, including calling Muhammad their lord/god ! Still it is not allowed, when you use the Qur'an and hadith as your base!

Thank you, I rest my case. Previously you claimed that Muslims never refered to Muhammad as "Lord", but now you are eating your words. Thank you again.

olabowale:
If the Bible does not contain the apocritic or the uncanonized Gospels of Peter and others who knew Jesus intimately, how can anybody trust the canonized gospels are the total truth?

The only reason (among many) why I can trust them is that the mullahs deliberately caliberated duplicities about those documents. If a body of Muslim scholars would do such, I can as well discard their hypocrisy and simply take the Quran in its claim that it came to CONFIRM the Biblical scriptures and not to correct them. So, yes sir. . . I can trust the Bible.

olabowale:
Now, there is a video on goggle that Huxley called my attention to, in his "Jesus did not die" thread. I think a sincere person should watch it for good information. Interesting iwas on BBC! I wonder how a good Christian who is up on all thing Christian, while still in England could have missed out on such an indictment against Christendon!

Thank you sir. There are many such vids on google and Youtube that regard the Quran as a myth - and they were produced in America. I wonder how you never refer to them even though you're living in New york.

olabowale:
Lying against God by saying that He has a child wiith a woman, where by the Child becomes begotten and also god/lord is the worse kind of lie!

It is muslims who projected that lie - so what is my worry? If your conscience is beginning to stir, happy for you: the repercussions are yours to deal with. many times I warned you that "begotten son" does not include wife and sex images - you actually kept on harping on that idea and now begging to be released from your own lies. I am happy for you, sir.

Christianity Etc › Re: Chris Oyakhilome Is A Phoney by pilgrim1(f): 12:40pm On Sep 12, 2008

Lol. . . donnie,

How body? cheesy

donnie:
I have known pilgrim (and he can attest to that) for pretty long time and he has always been about trying to maintain a balance but hardly without a trace of understanding of the Spirit and the Word.

Thanks for the compliment. . . it's all well that someone believes that about me, lol.

donnie:
And I also recognize many times his desire to have me express same views on these threads. That however, is hardly my queue on n'land . . . with no regrets though.

Well, it's not been my desire to get you to say anything you don't agree with. Is that not why people discuss in a public forum? All the same, enjoy. wink

Christianity Etc › Re: Am Tired Of Being Lied To! Christainity Is Becoming An Embarassment. by pilgrim1(f): 12:33pm On Sep 12, 2008

Dear donjon,

How body?

donjon:
while i know that there is a GOD somewhere. . .

I want anybody to give me only one good reason to continue attending church,
before i enter into the more serious aspects of astral travel , and other phychic phenomena.

You don't need any reason - good or bad - to continue attending church. None whatsoever. If you started out with anger burning in you, and feel that you have been lied to, and yet know that there is a God "somewhere", all well for you in your astral journey. Doesn't it make someone "feel good"? At least, if men can lie to you, it doesn't mean that God lied to you. If He did, you're still on the road to a feel good lie - whether or not you believe that there is a "God somewhere".

Let's start from there - and see the "light" in your tunnel.

Shalom.

Christianity Etc › Re: Am Tired Of Being Lied To! Christainity Is Becoming An Embarassment. by pilgrim1(f): 12:28pm On Sep 12, 2008

@image123, thank you. . . and may God bless you with both hands. cheesy

Christianity Etc › Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by pilgrim1(f): 12:22pm On Sep 12, 2008

Dear Chrisgenobor,

Chrisbenogor:
Infallible is quite a big word. I think people have to understand believing in God is more about faith than about what checks out in the physical world.

There's nothing wrong in believing in God, actually - and I'm glad you recognize that fact. What is worrisome for those who make it their brithright to be restless about theism is that they often have no clue how to enter upon a discussion on such subjects. The rage, irrational reactions and slurs hardly pass the test of coherence - and that is the unfortunate thing I often read from people who seek to "answers" from theists about their convictions.

If I were an atheist, for example, what does it matter whatever anyone believes? To assume to test theology by teleology is quite hilarious, because the person who attempts to proceed from the physical understanding about the world and remains on that same strian of thought is violating his own principle of investigating the experience about the reality of the world we live in. This is why I have refrained for the moment from engaging in such noise and racketeering until I find people who are willing to engage their intellect without the discourtesies. Like I remarked recently to huxley, quite often the real questions are cleverly left untouched; and in another I asked mazaje what the philisophical and empirical connection could be between infant mortality and prayer. Or even, what are the dynamics of nation development as measurable against the concept of prayer (I even went so far to offer a few - political, social, cultural, economic, demographic, etc).

Quite often is the case that people do not carefully weigh their approaches in making enquiries - and for those who assume that atheism is a more rational worldview than theism, I wish them good luck. All I can do for the moment is watch in amazement as such fellows convince me of their abject irrationality.

Chrisbenogor:
I know I do not have all the answers and most likely will not till I die, but for now whatever you believe works for you no religion is superior to another.

I don't think you get the gist, bro. If anyone has been hooting for the idea of a "superior" religion, please look the other way - Muslims are the ones trying ever so hard to "prove" that their god is right (I quoted it earlier from littleb); and Christian apologetics should not be narrowed to this idea of "religious superiority". You may not have all the answers, that's okay; neither do I. The one reason why I am even on the forum is to help set these gentlemen straight about the untennable claims they often make.

How are you anyways?

Christianity Etc › Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by pilgrim1(f): 12:07pm On Sep 12, 2008

@littleb,

littleb:
This is no christian motherboard. The Board name is religion.

My mistake - 'childboard' rather (or 'section' if you prefer). If there were no such distinctions, please let's drop this hypocrisy and merge them all to a single motherboard.

littleb:
This is the most misconception ever. Even, the idol worshipers belief there exist only one God. All their dieties is solely purported as intermidiary. It is only in christianity that has three Godhead and believe in human God.

Christianity never speaks of 3 Godhead(s) - not in one instance. The Godhead is a term describing what the OT prophets already knew about God - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. In earlier discussions with others, I have shared that even we Christians have to be careful in our understanding of the Trinity; because often times, when many people are speaking about the trinity, they are thinkingin terms of tritheism (belief in 3 gods) which the Bible never teaches. That was what I used to believe as a muslimah about Christianity, but when I took the bold stand to stop lying against other people's beliefs, I saw that Muslims (and indeed anyone else) who accuse Christianity of teaching "three Godheads" are wrong.

Yes, I used to lie against Christianity with these stereotypes. . . until I saw that the such pigeonhole allusions did not help me on the path to truth.

Rather than denying anything the Biblical prophets have taught, I went rather to embrace them. Why? For 3 basic reasons:

(a) because lying against the prophets is a serious issue in Islam - and as a (former) muslimah, there was no reason why I should be doing that;

(b) we were misled by the mullahs and Muslim scholars who deliberately caliberated the misconception that the Biblical documents have been lost and no longer existed. The hypocrisy in that was the attitude of the same scholars to quote from the books of the Bible to "prove" that Muhammad was the prophet in Deuteronomy 18!! If they do not believe that the Torah and Injil are found in the Bible, why quote from the same Bible to make any claim for Muhammad at all?!?

(c) in my former religion (Islam), we claimed that we believed in the prophets sent to the "people of the book" (meaning Jews and Christians); but yet at the same time we fancy it a thing of joy to castigate their teachings! I could not be living my life with such double standards - and several other things led me to finally decide to take a bold stand to investigate my own convictions: were the prophets right, or wrong? Did allah ask me to first believe in those prophets and then at the same time ridicule and deny their teachings? No.

Now, if I actually believed in the prophets, then I have no reason to castigate their teachings. Afterall, it is the same Quran that states that we make no distinction between the prophets; so why should we be so bitterly engaged in making a distinction where allah says the direct opposite?! This is why I finally had to throw away my hypocrisy and double standards and rather embrace the teachings of the prophets as found in the Biblical texts.

To answer your second allegation: ". . . and believe in human God". I confess that yes indeed, I believe in the incarnation: that Jesus is deity. Please bear with me (if you may) and let me share with you why I so believe.

I believe in the Incarnation for some reasons:

(a) because the same prophets (in whom muslims believe) have taught that God would come in human flesh. I believe in Isaiah as a prophet - and he spoke by prophecy that the Messiah would be called "the Mighty God" (Isaiah 9:6). Both in the Hebrew original text and sincere Hebrew scholarship on that verse agree that the reference was clear that indeed the Mighty God Himself would come in Humanity. Not only

(b) because also, we know that in Islam the Incarnation did not involve "sexual intercourse"; but no muslim in his right mind would deny that only Jesus Christ is referred to as the Word of God! (Although this is often denied, most Muslims actually state it as it is - example, this site that states: "The Qur’an also refers to Jesus as Kalimat Allah, which means The Word of God." wink

Muslim scholarship try to excuse this away by saying that the term "Word of God" only refers to Allah speaking to bring a thing to pass ("be - and it is" wink

. My objection is that even the Hadiths did not teach it so, but categorically call Jesus Christ "the WORD" as a proper Name!

(c) because thirdly, even as a muslimah I joined in ridiculing the doctrine of God sharing anything with mankind - not even any semblance of title or characteristics. But even though I already knew this, I was stunned in further research to find that Islam actually believes that "Allah created Adam in His image" (sahih hadiths of Bukhari and Muslim) - the very thing that the Biblical prophets had taught! I'm not intersted now in the doctored interpretations the mullah have given to this; but what is interesting is that Islam actually acknowledges the very same thing that it tries to repudiate in the Biblical faith!

Therefore, after carefully weighing the options, there was not much I could do than sincerely bow to the revelations given to the Biblical prophets - because the Quran did not come to "correct" those scriptures, but rather it many times states that it came to CONFIRM them!

Christianity Etc › Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by pilgrim1(f): 11:12am On Sep 12, 2008

@littleb,

littleb:
This has been proved by many scholars of the world. Not only Muslims.

. . . and we have examined some of those so-called scholars and found them empty! What about the scholars who have proven the same Quran as a set of confused revelations - what do you say about that then? Even the many attacks on the Bible on this Forum have been defended rigorously. . . but any questions on the Quran worldwide is often taken with a retreat to an island, a case in point is the divide now between the Christian and Muslim sections, No? Christians do not retreat when questions are advanced - we cautiously defend the veracity of the Biblical faith against such attacks.

littleb:
Jesus spake "Eloi, Eloi, " provide the translation in Arabic and Hebrew which you understand.

Lol. . . when you are ready to do Biblical studies on their original languages, call on me. Go and first carefully read your claim on the direct connection to make Eloi translate in Allah.

littleb:
Next, Provide "Allah" analysis in arabic with plurality and gender plus their translation in english, Hebrew, greek and Aramaic. In arabic bible, there is no God translation other than Allah.

You're becoming a bit irrational as it does not appear that you have any substance to your overwheening pride. But I'll oblige you once again if you care.

The first thing to understand is that the translators of the Bible into Arabic (as far as I know) did not accurately represent the Biblical texts. Take, for instance, such passages as cited above where Moses and Isaiah were given the revelation of God as Father - what do those verses say in Arabic, my dear littleb?

Second, Christians who know that such translations in Arabic are inaccurate have calmly rejected the compromise and that is why they refer to God in Arabic as "Allāh al-Āb (الله الآب) - God the Father" (see, for example, John 6:27, Philp 2:11, 2 Peter 1:17 and Jude 1).

Third, the word "Allāh" is not a proper name for God, and it was well known by the Arab pagans before Muhammad founded Islam. We all know that it is a contraction of two words - the Arabic article al- and ʾilāh "deity, god". Put together, it stands as al- ʾilāh ("the god" wink

. Please understand that "god" is a generic (or common) term for deity, and is not a proper name, so there's no need here to go into semantics about small "g" or capital "G" (later, if you care, I'll show you that even Muslim translators of the Quran have used "god" in reference to Allah).

However, since we know that the word stands alone as "ʾilāh" ("god" wink

, the Quran uses its several derivatives to refer to plural deities (such as "aliha" - "gods" wink

- see for example:

[list][list]Quran 7:138 - ""O Musa (Moses)! Make for us an ilahan (a god) as they have aliha (gods)" (Hilali-Khan)[/list][/list]

[list][list]Quran 21:43 - "Or have they aliha (gods) who can guard them from Us?. . ." (Hilali-Khan)[/list][/list]

I could expatiate on this with further references if need be, but there are numerous such in the Quran itself where the word "god" has plurals (gods) as well.

Now, as to the gender, we know that the masculine form of deity is called "allah" ('the god'), while the feminine form is "allat" ('the goddess' with a final 't'). It could be written as either "al-Lāt" or "al-'Ilāhat", and the difference is simply the grammatical forms in Arabic ("ta-marbuta", more precisely, as it is the consonant used in the ordinary feminine singular ending of such arabic words). One such reference in the Qur'an is Sura 53:19 - "Have ye thought upon *Al-Lat and Al-'Uzza" (*'Al-Lat' simply means "the goddess" in contradistinction to the masculine form 'Al-ilah' or 'allah', the god).

This is just a summary, but should you need to be better informed, then I could oblige you and provide classical distinction both from within the Quran, the sahih Hadiths, several Islamic texts and documents, and standard Arabic scholarship. Please don't try to tease yourself on this, because I definitely will take you up on any bluff you advance on these matters.

The point so far is not to ridicule you or Islam. . . not at all. My style is often to provide evidence for what I state as clearly as daylight so that no one is left in doubts. I don't make statements I cannot defend, that is why I don't plagiarize materials or make defenseless statements/claims. For this reason again, I often appeal to my Muslim friends to hold their peace and enjoy their muslim section instead of coming here to be the brigaders of such fallacious claims as they often assert.

I could stop here, but if you'd like me to answer the rest of your claims with crystal clear evidence, I would oblige you.

Shalom. wink

Christianity Etc › Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by pilgrim1(f): 10:12am On Sep 12, 2008

@littleb,

Even if my replies will once again be deleted, I'll take a few lines from yours and offer answers to clear your misconceptions.

littleb:
This is a white lie. There is no single verse in the Quran ref a Gospel according Mathew, Luke and John as the one revealed to jesus(PBHM) and no single reference exit where muhammad(PBHM) ever read it.

It is not a white lie. The sahih Hadiths clearly establish that during Muhammad's career on the road to proclaiming himself a prophet, the same NT Gospels were known, read and even translated into Arabic by one of Khadija's relatives - to be precise, her cousin (Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza) who was an old man and blind in one eye (see, for example, Bukhari Bk #60, Hadith #478). There was never at any time when a separate Gospel was purported to have been sent down besides those Gospels, and this idea of a separate set of Injil being sent down was engineered by Muslims scholars who found their defence untennable in derogating the NT Gospels. Today, such a dubious claim has been endlessly circulated by the likes of Zakir Naik, and if you asked such men to produce the original Injil for you, you can be sure they would offer you excuses instead.

littleb:
Yes it doesn't exist.
I have read page to page. All in the new testament about jesus is nothing but a report. Historical compilation of many incoherent events while they garbled the original saying of Jesus(PBHM). If you insist there is gospel given to jesus in the bible, kindly site it.

The Gospels are found in the New Testament. Please provide the so-called missing Injil and let's read it for ourselves, thank you.

littleb:
That is according to what your claimed anointed men wrote about them. Even, not only father, there are several imperfect description of God such as; burning fire, like a man, drunk e.t.c.

Where was God ever drunk according to the prophets? You see why Muslims often make claims they cannot substantiate? This is what I often cautioned Olabowale against - lying against the prophets is a serious issue in islam - I should remnd you of the same.

littleb:
In more civic term you are right. Morphologically, God has been relegated to a just being like human and this is the concept that resulted to trinity. A concept that has generated many transformation from father to son, son promoted to god.

The Biblical prophets did not at anytime morph their teaching from what was revealed to them. Anyone who is careful to do literary history without bias will see the point crystal clear.

littleb:
There is no single revelation from God refer himself as a father in the Torah, injeel or the Quran.

On the contrary, there are several references to God revealing Himself as "Father" to His covenant people. Muslims who respect Moses as a prophet of God often like to quote from the same Torah (particularly Deuteronomy) to argue that Muhammad was the promised Prophet whom Moses spoke about. But the same Muslims who quote Deuteronomy are too afraid to quote Deuteronomy 32:6 where Moses stated: "Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not He thy FATHER that hath bought thee? hath He not made thee, and established thee?". I could give you several other reference both in the Torah (the Law), the Zabur (the Psalms), and other prophets in the Old Testament, if you care.

On the contrary, the Qur'an denied the revelation of God as "Father". . . and all the claims that Muhammad previously made about worshipping the same God as Jews and Christians were thrown overboard when he stated clearly that he did not worship the same God whom the Biblical prophets knew as Father. This is why even today, Arab Christians address God as "Allāh al-Āb (الله الآب) - God the Father". The only was Muslim scholars try to evade this concrete fact is to claim that the Torah and Injil in the Quran have all been lost - again, a defenseless duplicity!

littleb:
God is named Allah plus all other 99 atributes which are not sharable by mankind.

I have also examined the issue of 99 names earlier - Muslims are not in agreement as to what names make up the 99 attributes. Everyone says different things and lists different names - so which one should I believe? Besides, you may assume that Allah does not share any of those attribute with mankind, but there again you are wrong - the same thing I have debated with Muslims in the past.

littleb:
You can only be His servant in any ramification. No revelation came from God depicting His name or attribute as father. If you have ref to that and you can prove it, I will take your side.

I have already referenced Deuteronomy 32:6. Do you want more? Besides, the prophets knew their relationship with God as more than "servants". . . they also knew that God saw them as His children (without the idea of sire or sex). Let me give you a few references:

[list][li]Exo. 4:22 - "And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn"[/li]
[li]Deut. 14:1 - "Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead."[/li]
[li]Isaiah 63:6 - ". . . Thou, O LORD, art our Father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting"[/li][/list]

Now notice Exodus and Deuteronomy are part of the Torah (the Law), and even if you read those verses in their Hebrew original, they state precisely what I just shared with you above. Isaiah was another authentic prophet who also knew God as "Father", and I wonder why Islam never recognizes him as a prophet even if Jesus did!!

Christianity Etc › Re: A Prayer Request For Bisi Olofinyo by pilgrim1(f): 9:25am On Sep 12, 2008

Please brethren, let's not make this a discussion thread - it was meant to be a request. There's another thread where this subject is being discussed. Blessings all.

Christianity Etc › Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by pilgrim1(f): 9:23am On Sep 12, 2008

@littleb,

Thank you for taking the time to make some notes in what you assumed to be quite disturbing to you. However, I would have hoped that you did some search through the Religion motherboard to see where we have dicussed the same untennable issues that you are recycling here and see that you haven't added anything to clear your case.

What is amazing is the fact that Muslims who are often so dissatisfied with Islam deliberately come over to the Christian section to trump up ridiculous claims in the hope that nobody will notice the duplicity therein. I wasn't keen on paying any attention to the recent attitude demonstrated by Olabowale in this regard: but I expected that after I had deflated his false claims, the entire sections would either be deleted or the thread will suddenly disappear! The former is what has happened - and that is what disgusts me about discussing with Muslims.

It is okay around the world for Muslims to be restless about Islam and seek to misrepresent the Biblical faiths. . . but as soon as answers are provided to counter such misrepresentations, the threads suddenly vanish without a trace! This is what has happened with the fallacy of Olabowale claiming that Muslims never refer to Muhammad as "Lord" of any kind! As soon as evidence is given to the contrary, it didn't surprise me that the entire section went missing. Should anyone be asking what is happening?

Anyhow, littleb, nothing in your replies are surprising to me - and it won't take me very long to dispell your myths and set you straight. But there again, I expect that after I've replied your misgivings, my replies would once again be deleted! Such a panic reaction is very understandable - it only confirms that being a Christian is the best choice I ever made in life. . . because Christians are never at any time concerned with that kind of attitude.

Thank you once again, but I urge you to demonstrate an attitude of sincerity before engaging pilgrim.1 in discussions. wink

Christianity Etc › Re: A Prayer Request For Bisi Olofinyo by pilgrim1(f): 9:06am On Sep 12, 2008

Praise God for a successful operation.
Father we thank You for today. . for Bisi. . . for the blessings upon her life
we give glory to You that her healing is yea and amen
all things are established to give her perfect recovery
and all the praise to You O God - in Jesus Name. Amen.

Christianity Etc › Re: Must We Shout When We Pray? by pilgrim1(f): 7:00pm On Sep 11, 2008

manmustwac:
orunta all my spellings are correct you dey confuse me with mazaje

Wahala don start to shele again O!. . . make I take a long break until. . . cheesy

Christianity Etc › Re: Must We Shout When We Pray? by pilgrim1(f): 6:57pm On Sep 11, 2008

mazaje:
the bottom line is this if prayer works nigeria will never be where it is at the moment because Nigeria is the most prayerful nation on earth that i know. . . . . . yet all its prayers have remained unanswered. . . . . . .

Lol. . . your inferences are wrong, dear mazaje. You seem to be scuttling round the real dynamics of nation developments and narrowing it down to prayer. The political, economic, demographic, philosophical, social and cultural indices are often largely forgotten by people making such an inference. There's only one question here: why is it that people often forget these indices? cheesy

Christianity Etc › Re: A Prayer Request For Bisi Olofinyo by pilgrim1(f): 6:49pm On Sep 11, 2008

enitan2002:
@ pilgrim

hmmmm, i can see, so u be prayer warrior? how body na?

_{Broderly. . . I didn't ignore you. I initially didn't make any comment here as I didn't want to turn this to a discussion thread. Tried emailing you. . . wonder why it's being returned: am I missing something in your e-addy? Wire me some lines let me reply. . . please darling, I dey beg! Thank you.}

Christianity Etc › Re: A Prayer Request For Bisi Olofinyo by pilgrim1(f): 6:45pm On Sep 11, 2008

mazaje:
sorry the post will be removed. . . . . .

Thanks. I'm sorry that I was very firm there in my tone - but I didn't want anyone feeling that I'm rubbing you on the rough side, and that is why I never quoted you. My respects remain with you, and thank you again. kiss

Christianity Etc › Re: A Prayer Request For Bisi Olofinyo by pilgrim1(f): 6:42pm On Sep 11, 2008

@mazaje,

. . . adjusted as well. Thanks for understanding.

Christianity Etc › Re: Give Your Life To Jesus Christ Here by pilgrim1(f): 6:31pm On Sep 11, 2008

olabowale:
I know its hard to swallow. They say truth is bitter. Why would I not be labelled sexual freak, since I pointed to the fact that the Christians say that God has a child!

Truth has always been more than hard for folks like you to swallow; and a case in point is the dishonest claim that anyone was labelling you a "sexual freak". You, of your own accord, cast yourself as one with a dirty mind, so why come here with this pseudo-crank complain? cheesy

olabowale:
Am sure i will annoy them, the same way Muhammad (AS) annoyed them, when the revelation denying it came to him!

Sorry, we are not annoyed, that is why we still keep inviting you to keep abandoning your muslim section because of the restlessness in Islam. And thanks anyway for acknowledging Muhammad's denials - that is precisely what I have always told you guys before: that denials do not make a prophet of God.

olabowale:
I guess in the minds of the Christians, children can be gotten in the time of Jesus without any sexuality to it.

Please stop whinging and simply show where "sex" was involved was involved in Jesus' conception.

olabowale:
Fantasy Islanders! People who left Islam because they know that muslims 'Think" alot about sex should be asked how they know what a person was thinking?

I left Islam and glad I did because you're always proving my case of dirty-minded muslim-mindset.

olabowale:
Were the themselves thinking about it and they were virgins at that time? And now that they are no more muslims, if not married still virgins? Big confusion and lies!

Lol. . . you're more confused than ever. Where in the prophets words did they talk about sex as you allege, sir? Are you so far removed from honesty that we have to be entertained forever by this display of immaturity?

olabowale:
Everyone who know enough about the Jews and ever read their Torah and Mishnash, will not disagree that their God, in their own mind is unique and very ethnical!

I asked you to go read your Quran and see that Muhammad denied the God of the Biblical prophets - and by so doing he constituted himself a false prophet by the very same standard Moses set. Is that such a hard task for you?

olabowale:
They own God Almighty, alone and no one else is part of it! Even the Christians are gullible enough to still refer to God as"God of Israel!"

Simply because Christians are not prone to make denials. . afterall, did you not just say above that a revelation of "denial" was given to Muhammad? cheesy

Is there any parameters between the person who only knows how to "deny" and he who confesses God's revelations to the prophets?

olabowale:
I am not in the mood for dishonest and childish thinking! If mature conversation can be held, I will not be interested!

Please rest. If you were not in the modd, you would have removed yourself from all this silly complaints that keep bringing you back to display your dissatisfaction with the muslim section. Please stay long enough to find the fellowship to put you in the mood.

olabowale:
And as I have a too much nack for "SEX," the foolish will say, I am not involved in Zina. Alhamdulillah!

Hahahaha!! Wetin concern me with whatever you're involved with? cheesy

Na only you get yourself involved, and na only you dey complain! Wahala knows no end O!

olabowale:
And I see, almost on a daily basis Christian Nigerians who can't get enough!

Hehehe. . this is dramatic. Please tell us wetin you "see". . . what took your eyes there in the first place? Have you never heard of the advice: "hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil" before? grin

olabowale:
I guess birds do it and bees do it. How thoughts all of a sudden could be taking as just doing is is amazing! But thos who are not thinking about it but do it on impulse, the sex police will not complain about it!

Why are you grumbling so much? So if the police never complain, does that provide you with the licence to be careless every single time? undecided

olabowale:
If you are matured enough and you are suspecting that people are thinking about sex, and its a big deal to you, then marry! Don't suffer in silence.

Pity! This is not about marrying; but rather about the seriousness of forcing a false accusation into the words of the prophets! You know how serious it is in islam to say false things against the prophets. . . but oh, you already said earlier that many muslims do not obey their religion! Weldone.

olabowale:
I guess a person who thinks people are thinking about stealing or thievery, especially when those people have consequential law against such an offense, may be intending to steal or practice thievery!

Was your accusations against the prophets a matter of "stealing or theievery" (was that supposed to be rather "theft" wink

? Wonders shall never end.

olabowale:
Those who can't control their emotions in critical matters need to pay attention to details! I guess many act on impulse!

I see evidence of your complain. . . don't worry, I shall be praying for you to control your impulses and emotions, so that you can think straight and not falsely accuse the prophets of what they never taught!

Shalom. cheesy

Christianity Etc › Re: Must We Shout When We Pray? by pilgrim1(f): 4:30pm On Sep 11, 2008

Lol. . . we all make typographical mistakes (I'm guilty of many in recent times). But let's continue to share with these gentlemen with a calmer and more resolved attitude - I have seen people who listen more when we show them love and reason, than when we put them on spot.

Enjoy. wink

Christianity Etc › Re: Give Your Life To Jesus Christ Here by pilgrim1(f): 4:25pm On Sep 11, 2008

@Olabowale,

olabowale:
But then we find that some people still go against Muhammad's instructions to them! Should this people be considered muslims, especialy when they call him some lord or some god?

Sir Dr. Alhaji . . . please tell the truth and put the devil to shame! cheesy

You categorically claimed that Muslims ("we" wink

never refer to Muhammad as a Lord of any kind! That was your claim - and I only showed that you were trying to deceive the simpletons who swallow your remarks gullibly without knowing any better!

olabowale:
They are not to, but they can continue to bear the label, which many who are clearly not muslims have continued to cling to.

It is not in your place to deny others their right to be called "Muslims". If they say they are muslims, then they are such. This exculpation is simply a convenience game that borders on altaqiyya.

olabowale:
If a person created a lord or god for himself, should he not be punished since this will will clearly go against Allah's order and descriptions: Remember Surah Iklas?

Lol. . . who are you now complaining to. . . me? Lol, sorry sir - I'm not the one calling Muhammad a "Lord", so please talk to your own people at the I[/b]slamic [b]S[/b]upreme [b]C[/b]ouncil of [b]A[/b]merica, afterall you can easily reach them from NY!

olabowale:
The benefit of being alive is that there is opportunity to repent. I ask everyone not allow a group or a person to be the shaitan that gets him out of Islam.
Why are you suddenly shivering with this panic-measure? When people wey no dey rest continue to come here and read your false claim, it will get them thinking. . . and sooner than later, they will leave your Islam in "peace" for you. So please keep coming back and let's help them see how seriously flawed are your presumptions.

olabowale:
I see many things [b]muslims do which are clearly against islam.

Thank goodness you called them "muslims" - and it is now clear that "muslims" do not obey their own religion. Thank you sir.

olabowale:
But should I abandone Islam for what religion: Christianity with its Trinity or Judaism with its tribal GOd? Never!

But wait O, alhaji. . . the "tribal" God of Judaism is clearly respected in the Quran. Should I put you to the test? Remember, I said that everytime you make a false claim, I'll lovingly expose it gabadaya!

olabowale:
I advise everyone not to be deluded and allow shaitan to come in form of familiar faces and send them to the fire of hell!

Amen. Nobody should be deluded by your false claims, sir.

olabowale:
All glory is due to Allah. May His Mercy be upon His slave and servant the unlettered Prophet/Messenger, Muhammad bin Abdallah (AS). I am saying to everyone that there is a Creator; Allah. Everything else is creation and they all depend on HIM!

Even with that doxology, it is still Muslims who refer to Muhammad as "Lord".

Christianity Etc › Re: Give Your Life To Jesus Christ Here by pilgrim1(f): 4:25pm On Sep 11, 2008

@Olabowale,

olabowale:
A one liner will not be sufficient to deal with matters of religion. A person who left Islam because he/she believed that islam talks too much about sex must be expected to remain a virgin, if yet unmarried. Afterall, as bad, sexually Islam is, I know men who are in 30s and 40s who are still virgins. And thy live in the city of New YOrk. The Americans who will engage in all types of sex at a drop of a hat, are now chase men and women!

It is true that one-liners do not establish matters of religion - but is that not what you been trying to smuggle in through the back door forever? And talking about 30s and 40s remaining virgins, good for them; but such people do not run their minds in the mud to dirty talk the way you do, sir.

olabowale:
I hope that a woman or man would not expect spouses not to engage in legally acceptable sex in their own space. I live in NYC, and I know what amount of women that could have been available to me if i were not muslim! Afterall, I am a Yoruba man, and i know about the sexuality of african men with their african women counterpart!

Alhaji, please be mature and honest. This is not about marital issues. The point of reference has been on your propensity to always drag your mind to sex in every line you read about the prophets teachings. So this exculpation you're trying here is a weak device of distraction. You will do better if you do a little mind-cleaning. cheesy

olabowale:
But the Qur'an frowns against Zina! The punishment for it still stands, even till today. I wonder what company a person was keeping in Islam that will mke them leave it to a Tahgut! Well, if one left Islam for christianity, where the worst kind of behavior, including unmarried sexual activities can be forgiven by just mere believing in the death of a man on the cross, I wonder if such a person is sincere!

No matter what allegations you make, they do not change the facts, and by forcefully making such false claims you make the matter worse for your case - because again it shows that honesty is a scarce commodity in your writings.

olabowale:
How do you leave a camp where the rule is strict, with even stricter rulings of an offense, to another camp where everything and anything is okay, as long as one believes in the death of an innocent man? Wow! This is far out.

In Christianity, things are stricter than in Islam. The difference is that we don't bend the necks of people with a knife to their throats when they choose to go elsewhere - judgement is in God's hands, and not in man's.

olabowale:
I have heard every lame excuses, this is the lamest, yet! What deters a christian from engaging in sex? Conscience alone?

It is not about engaging in sex - it is rather your dirty mind that is a put-off. If dirty talking is all that you enjoy in Islam, I'm glad I left and never hope to return.

olabowale:
That can do it, if you mix a little alcohol here and there with some music. The end result is always the same. Something is bound to happen, because the senses are dulled to sillyness!

I know - and I've actually seen the effect among Muslims, believe me! undecided

olabowale:
But in the Qur'an, the warning is there against sex and at least intosticants! You are supposed to be away of your situations, all the time.

If there is such warning against sex in the Qur'an, how come you have never been able to follow that warning? How come the warnings in the Quran are not able to heal your mindset from such dirty talk, sir?

olabowale:
I will not claim that muslims don't participate in things that are against the commandment of Allah and the sunnah of the Prophet (AS).

Okay, that just seals the concrete fact! wink

olabowale:
Thats why we have 73 divisions. But one will go to paradise, directly, while the rest and all the others among mankind will head to hellfire! Should we not be concerned about the fire created to punish when the fire we have on earth is to benefit us, but yet it burns terrible if one have the wrong contact with it!

Sad, sad division. I thought that Islam was never meant to experience such things - and which one of those 73 divisions is going to escape the hell promised by allah? This is like hopelessly repeating the same thing and shouting it from the minaret in hope that your skin will not be charred. I wish you a tall hope.

olabowale:
I remember that Muhammad (as) said to people do not praise me, as the the Christians have praised son of mary and then they began to give him a wrong title.

Muhammad had no reason to hate Jews and Christians.

Christianity Etc › Re: Give Your Life To Jesus Christ Here by pilgrim1(f): 3:28pm On Sep 11, 2008

@zayhal,

zayhal:
Why are You getting so hot? I only responded to what you posted. If You need answers to the other issues you raised, why not create a thread and we'll discuss this better. Or betterstill, learn about Islam objectively and see the beauty therein.

No one should be hotheaded here - good advice, and I've always called for reason in discussions. However, I've also studied Islam with serious objectivity rather than hotheadeness - I still haven't had reasonable responses from those I discuss with. I don't mind being invited to another thread to rub minds with you on the same issues, though.

zayhal:
Funny, aren't You? Can You boast of never going to the Islamic forum at any time.

Lol. . . I'm not being funny; and yes, I haven't been to the "Islamic" forum on Nairaland since it was created. There was no such "Islamic forum" when I joined Nairaland; but I missed hugely while I was on break and didn't realize what must have happened for the divide! You can check for yourself and see.

Besides, I don't miss anything from that section, that's why you guys continue to visit here for what you cannot find in your sections. Please stay long enough and enjoy! cheesy

zayhal:
Are u unaware of the number of Christaians who parade the Islamic forum and hardly leaves there? Do we say You and these others are tired of Christainity and the lack of fellowship in d christain forum?

What do we lack, please tell us. Is it the dissatisfaction manifested in the misrepresentations Muslims often make about issues they can't defend? The callous misrepresentations? Hmmm. . . na wah O! grin

zayhal:
Did I hear You say no one is claiming that Jesus is God? Then that must be a new development. Consult with fellow christains and they'll tell he's God. Or do You have a different ideology? where exactly do You stand?

Oh, I left Islam for many things - part of which was the inability of Muslims to defend the idea that the Torah and Injil were lost. It is because they cannot handle what is taught by the Biblical prophets, that is why they can make huge claims that they know deed in their hearts are not true.

Christianity Etc › Re: Give Your Life To Jesus Christ Here by pilgrim1(f): 3:18pm On Sep 11, 2008

olabowale:
NO one, including the Angels can hurt Allah the Almighty God! Allah says hurt to mean in intensed disappointment He feels from the selfishness of the children of Adam, who see that they are favored and under the mercy while others are in trial.

Hold ona minute. If "allah" was above every need, above every person, above every thing past feeling or weakness, what was he doing with "intense disappointment"? A being who claims to be above all is not supposed to be expressing disappointment (actually, hurt was the word)? Why should he be complaining about being "hurt" in anyway?

So, allah can be "~~intensely disappointed~~" hurt but you have aproblem with Genesis where the word "rest" is used to express God's satisfaction after the creation? Please throw this mind games where the belong - to the recycling bin. Allah said he was "hurt". QED.

olabowale:
The ones are favored and enjoying the mercy of god do not do anything to aleviate the condition of the ones in trial, for the pleaseure of the One who has favored and shown them mercy. This is what is meant.

And what more have you added to the confusion, sir?

olabowale:
I guess no one have heard the expression, "I was hurt," before? Yet the speaker of the hurt was just expression to his/her audience that there was disappointment in the behavior which was expressed in a way to show that it was not expected!

Why would allah be complaining about being "hurt" if he was indeed above the feelings of humanity? If men say they can be hurt, and Muslims say that allah is above that, why was he yet complaining like the rest of men who can be hurt? You are not making any sense at all - just excuses after your swollen pride.

But sir, I must remark that you are different from other Muslims with whom I discussed this point. They all denied the hadith ever said so - but you have been kind to not deny it but acknowledge it is so. For that, I commend you.

olabowale:
Those who wish to guide themselves will do so. But those who wish to be fast and loose, lacking the patience to seek some beneficial understanding will respond in carefree ways, anyhow.

I agree, sir. That is because you have been playing the fast and loose track all along and never been patient to seek some beneficial understanding in the teachings of the prophets.

olabowale:
There will be surprise on the day that is certain when Jesus will say to the Christians, "I do not know you!"

Wrong again - that is what you wish; but nowhere is it taught that Christ will deny those who are Christians.

Christianity Etc › Re: Give Your Life To Jesus Christ Here by pilgrim1(f): 3:08pm On Sep 11, 2008

@Olabowale,

olabowale:
No wonder some people would leave Islam, since they do not know the difference between purity and what has been compromised with other materials.

Well, I chose to leave Islam when I discovered that most Muslims are prone to dirty thinking. . they see "sex" in almost everything even when it is not there. Talk about "purity", you don't qualify to discuss the subject, please.

olabowale:
If a groover were to squeeze Oranges in a pitcher. If somebody were to add the juice Mango to it, can we say that we now have pure orange juice in the pitcher? The answer will be NO! Even though the color will remain orangey. But it will be fuller getting to the brim, depending on the amount of Mango juice added. When it is observe with naked eyes, one may not be able to see any Mango substance. But when you smell it, the Orange smell will not be as sharp and crisp! When it is tasted, the Mangoy taste can not be masked away.

Good analogy that applies to the Quran. Well done. With all the squeezing and juicy stories made up in the things we read about your claims, we must have a delicious reason as to why the hadiths reveal the real character of Muhammad. wink

olabowale:
In the casual observations of the Bible, one see the hands of non-prophet authors; Mark, Luke, Matthew and John. One sees materials that are post Jesus; Acts of Apostles, Revelations, The letters. In the letters we see that these were opinions of ordinary men, Paul who use to be saul, is a very good example. The trick he devised was splice all of his writing with what may be considered some statement from Jesus! These Books, in the New Testament can never be called words of God, or can they?

Lol. . . these books can be hated by Muslims today - but it was the very same books that the Quran claims allah sent down. Talking about your hatred for Paul and the other disciples, please ask yourself where Muhammad got his idea of a "trumpet" that shall sound at the return of Christ. Is it not from the same epistles of the apostles? I sorry for you, but such is life.

Come closer and enjoy fellowship - we have so much to offer for the lack you experience in your own Muslim section. Welcome again. cheesy

Christianity Etc › Re: Give Your Life To Jesus Christ Here by pilgrim1(f): 2:57pm On Sep 11, 2008

This is what Olabowale loves so much to do - to be given a little opportunity to spew such a vast encyclopedia of . . . absolutely nothing! cheesy

However, since he always makes some very interesting claims, I take it that the gentelman could be forgiven for simply not knowing anything about what he claims. It happenz! But before he wonders any further, let me give a small example:

olabowale:
He ran or left Makka to Madina. We all agreed. This is the nature of man. Just like Moses did, before him! This is nothing strange, since we are not calling Moses and especifically Muhammad (AS), a lord or god of any kind!

Uhm. . . hold on a minute, alhaji! grin

This is funny. . . who are you trying to deceive, eh?

First of all, who is included in the "we" in your statement that "we are not calling" Muhammad a "a lord" of any kind? Just who are the "we"? Is it not an open truth that MUSLIMS are the ones calling Muhammad "Lord"?

Hold on small nah. . . make I land! grin

Yes, Muslims refer to Muhammad as "Lord"!

I'm not whipping this up; but indeed Muslims are the ones who have been calling Muhammad "Lord". Before I became a Christian, I came face to face with so many shades and denominations within Islam that refer to Muhammad as "Lord" - although as a non-Muslim who tries to confront them with the fact, they will categorically deny it!

However, let me give you guys a few examples of direct quotes from Muslim websites just so you see the fact:

[list][list][li]Daily Wird After Fajr and Magrib
“O Allah bless our liege lord Muhammad, your Servant and Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, and his folk and Companions, and grant them peace”.
source: [url=http://home.hixnet.co.za/qs/Preliminary%20dates%20for%20Shaykh%20Hazim%20in%20SA_files/Daily%20Wird.htm]see it here[/url] [/li][/list][/list]

[list][list][li]Send peace from us to our liege-lord and master Muhammad.
O Allah, bless our liege-lord and master Muhammad the master of the First and the Last.
O Allah, bless our liege-lord and master Muhammad at every moment and every instant.
source: read more here [/li][/list][/list]

[list][list][li]Islamic Supreme Council of America
Praise be to Allah, Lord of all the worlds, Who, through His Eternal Word, does not cease to be praised: We further bear witness that our liege-lord Muhammad r is the Perfected (‘insanu-l-kamil) Worshipper (`abdu-l-llah), His Slave and the Final Prophet and Messenger chosen from the seed of pure nobility, selected from a family of honor whose virtues falls short of describing.
source: Islamic Supreme Council of America [/li][/list][/list]

In more serious cases, I know of Muslims who have offered rites in worship to Muhammad - but that would be for later (as Muslims are very careful to not publish this in English on the internet).

The point is simple: Olabowale cannot claim that Muslims never refer to Muhammad as a "Lord" of any kind! That is simply not true! Only people who never know will believe such childish claims.

Christianity Etc › Re: Just 3 Words by pilgrim1(f): 2:22pm On Sep 11, 2008

[quote author=tonye-t link=topic=169302.msg2785203#msg2785203 date=1221134702]what is titheing?[/quote]For this thread. . .

. . .even here again?!? shocked

This is serious!

Abeg us plenty -
back to topic:
just praise Jesus! grin

Christianity Etc › Re: Give Your Life To Jesus Christ Here by pilgrim1(f): 2:12pm On Sep 11, 2008

@cold,

cold:
If he's a bloody human y d "peace be unto his name"crap or the so called "SAW".Besides u only touched on the human part,what about the promiscuity & deceit part.

Please don't be disturbed or over-react by the silly things you read from these fellows. cheesy

We have argued endlessly about the same things you highlighted: some of the threads have been deleted; others locked; and yet others marked out as no-go areas. So, there's nothing new about these debates.

One can understand why the few muslims you see in the Christian childboard are only showing that they are not satisfied with their Islamic/Muslim childboard - which is a very, very good sign. . . because we can show them the truth they deny, shower love upon them, and constantly invite them to reason and enjoy the fellowship that they so miss in their own section. If they were satisfied with Islam, they would not be here. So let them come over and keep coming to prove their disatisfaction in their own quarters.

Cheers. cheesy

Christianity Etc › Re: Give Your Life To Jesus Christ Here by pilgrim1(f): 2:05pm On Sep 11, 2008

zayhal:
Muhammed, Rasullulah (p.b.u.h.) never claimed to be God and the Quran does not tell us that too,

Muhammad never claimed to be God; but he denied the revelation of God as given to the prophets whom he claimed were sent by Allah.

zayhal:
he, (p.b.u.h), was a human, a Prophet and messanger of God and he lived a fulfilled life as a human, messanger of God.

So many have made the same claim after Muhammad: 'prophet(s) of God, . . . lived fulfilled life as human, . . . messenger(s) of God', blah. . . blah. It is one thing to claim to be a "prophet"; it is another thing to deny the very revelation of the same God who revealed Himself to the Biblical prophets.

zayhal:
The point here is that the person You claim is God, should not run for cover because God is a life giver and sustainer and is above everyone. Do you get the point?

I get the point. But the same 'god' in Islam who is said to be above all is also one that could complain bitterly that he was hurt by one of the nameless sons of Adam! I know this point is bitterly regretted by Muslims - and that is why many today are too scared to believe in the Hadiths.

zayhal:
Have You read the rejoinder to the book u mentioned?

No, I have not. But perhaps you could be sincere to clarify the relationship of al-manat, al-lat and al-uzza in Muhammad's confession before the story was edited in the Quran

You see, Christians do not need to try and give credit to their faith by running to the Quran for anything. On the other hand, it has always been the desire of Muslims buttress their religion from the same Bible they repudiate. Can you explain why this restlessness in Islam?

Christianity Etc › Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by pilgrim1(f): 1:50pm On Sep 11, 2008

Hi Roughlen,

Roughlen:
You and others have proven beyond any reasonable doubt that tithing is not required of us as christians and is therefore, not mandatory.

There is not a single type of "giving" in the NT that is required or mandatory. Often times, people switch onto something else that was never said in Scripture and make it a "requirement, command, mandate," etc. whereas it was not taught as such. Any believer who doesn't want to give in anyway should feel free of their conscience to keep their pennies - it is not mandatory.

Roughlen:
Thank God that those arguing for tithing (having tried fruitlessly to defend their arguement) have shifted grounds and agreed that it is not compulsory to pay tithes neither is it a requirement for getting blessings from God,

I was one who consistently discussed the veracity of tithes and other types of giving in the NT - I never "shifted" my grounds at any time, nor did I speculate about tithes as a mandatory profession in the NT.

Roughlen:
and they have also agreed that no punishment is reserved for non-tithers.

That may be so; but no one can argue against the fact that givers are never treated in Scripture the same as "withholders".

Roughlen:
It is for these reasons, and for the fact that you have said it time and time again that you are not against tithing as a from of giving to the church, that i called for an end to this arguement.

Aiight! If non-tithers are not against tithing, what is the bother to have argued against it at all? cheesy

Roughlen:
It is pointless to keep repeating yourself over and over again. A word, they say, is enough for the wise.

The repetition ad hominem underscores the restlessness we often feel about a subject, which in itself is a good sign - because it forces the person who draws a hasty conclusion to go back and study his ideas again.

Christianity Etc › Re: Should Men Of God Divorce And Remarry? by pilgrim1(f): 1:38pm On Sep 11, 2008

disease:
I want to become a pastor one day, so that I can marry and divorce 20 times.

Good luck to you! cheesy

Christianity Etc › Re: Big Bang; Only A Theory But We Are Being Forced To Accept It by pilgrim1(f): 1:33pm On Sep 11, 2008

@huxley,

huxley:
Let me try and relieve you of you ignorance of the way science works.

Lol. . . you often come off as quite a fellow sometimes, you know. You tried to 'relieve' someone of your perceived ignorance without even the patience to carefully weigh his point.

From all you said, you didn't add anything to his point. He said: "Science is not supposed to have an answer and then work towards the answer." That is classic, my dear huxley; and you should've realized that a "hypothesis" is not an "answer". Some scientific enquiries start from the hypothesis, they never start with an answer.

There should be no quarrels between people trying to share views on issues like this. It is when people become too polarized in their own ideologies that we find unnecessary fissures in relating with other people. Anyhow, cheers. cheesy

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