₦airaland Forum

Ken4Christ:
Ignorant person praising another ignorant one. When the blind leads the blind, they will both end up in the ditch.
Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become DEAD TO THE LAW by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Romans 7:6 But now we are DELIVERED FROM THE LAW, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the END OF THE LAW for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are NOT UNDER THE LAW, but under grace.

The evidences of the Scripture are too clear to be ignored. But instead of believing it, you will ignore it and quote your own. Maybe you were a Jehovah Witness. Because this is how they behave. They must win argument at all cost.

Notice, as I said, you are still pitching Paul against Jesus Christ, the Word of God. Paul believed in the Law of 2 or 3 witnesses as far as the establishment of a Truth, and as Jesus Christ said to the Pharisees, His Father is one witness, and He is another witness...

So, where are all the other witnesses you have to this claim that the Old Covenant Law has been abolished UNKNOWINGLY by God since according to Jesus Christ, it can never happen?

Matthew 5 vs 17(ESV)
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17. “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Kobojunkie:
Abraham was also not under the Mosaic Law, yet God gave him commands, statutes and rules which He also obeyed, and was justified as a result of.
You referring to the following law...

Do we stone non-virgins to death?

Do we have to grow out our beards?

Do we have to abstain from wearing clothes of mixed materials (wool and cotton)?

Do we have to abstain from eating pork?

Trust me, those laws were useful back then but ridiculous today. And to add, they were for the Jews, never for the gentiles.

Acts 15 makes this crystal clear.

OkCornel:
Do we stone non-virgins to death?
Do we have to grow out our beards?
Do we have to abstain from wearing clothes of mixed materials (wool and cotton)?
Do we have to abstain from eating pork?
Trust me, those laws were useful back then but ridiculous today. And to add, they were for the Jews, never for the gentiles.

Acts 15 makes this crystal clear.

Right, those laws were never a concern for the gentiles back then and are still not a concern for gentiles even to this day. The Old Covenant Law is a law that only applies to Jewish people and those who live in Israel.

There are Jewish communities(non-Christian) in Israel, to this day, where those laws are practiced. Are they condemned by God for it? God forbid... they are living as God commanded they should so why would He condemn them for honoring the very Law that He gave to their father Abraham?

Kobojunkie:
Right, those laws were never a concern for the gentiles back then and are still not a concern for gentiles even to this day. The Old Covenant Law is a law that only applies to Jewish people and those who live in Israel.

There are Jewish communities(non-Christian) in Israel, to this day, where those laws are practiced. Are they condemned by God for it? God forbid... they are living as God commanded they should so why would He condemn them for honoring the very Law that He gave to their father Abraham?

It’s their business if they decide to continue with it. Obeying those laws isn’t a necessity for salvation. Unless you have a different opinion from Peter’s in Acts 15.

But anyways, I totally understand your view point.

Sticking to the dietary laws for example, though has nothing to do with salvation, definitely has a positive effect on one’s health.

OkCornel:
It’s their business if they decide to continue with it. Obeying those laws isn’t a necessity for salvation. Unless you have a different opinion from Peter’s in Acts 15.
But anyway, I totally understand your viewpoint.

As for Peter's view in Acts 15, well, we have to be sure we understand what is going on there. Recall that God made a promise to Abraham to give His descendants the land of Canaan, and from Genesis 10, we are told of the people who inhabitants of the land of Canaan.

Genesis 10 vs 15-19 (ERV)
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15. Canaan was the father of Sidon. Sidon was Canaan’s first son. Canaan was also the father of the Hittites,
16. Jebusites, Amorites, Girgashites,
17. Hivites, Arkites, the Sinites,
18. Arvadites, Zemarites, and Hamathites. The families of Canaan spread to different parts of the world.
19. The land where the Canaanites lived went from Sidon down along the coast to Gerar and from Gaza as far east as Sodom and Gomorrah and from Admah and Zeboiim as far north as Laish.

And we know that when God made His Old Covenant through Moses with the descendants of Jacob, included were laws that foreigners who lived in the land were expected to keep to.

When the disciples gathered in Jerusalem, to debate what to do about the issue of what laws their gentile Christians who also lived in the land in the territory that was Canaan should do. That is why the disciples came up with the 4 rules which are part of the Old Covenant as what foreigners in the land were required to keep.

Well, at the time the first Christians, that land of Canaan included such places as Israel, Judea, Syria, and Cilicia, among others. Hence the reason why the letter written in Acts 15 is addressed to those in Syria and Cilicia.

Acts 15 vs 22-30 (ERV)
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22. The apostles, the elders, and the whole church wanted to send some men with Paul and Barnabas to Antioch. The group decided to choose some of their own men. They chose Judas (also called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were respected by the believers.
23. The group sent the letter with these men. The letter said:
From the apostles and elders, your brothers,
To all the non-Jewish brothers in the city of Antioch and in the countries of Syria and Cilicia.

OkCornel:
Sticking to the dietary laws for example, though has nothing to do with salvation, definitely has a positive effect on one’s health.

Jesus Christ gave us a different dietary law meaning that following the old dietary law has nothing to do with our Health. According to Him, it is not what you eat that makes you unclean.

Matthew 15 vs 10-30 (ESV)
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10. Jesus called the people to him. He said, “Listen and understand what I am saying.
11. It is not what people put in their mouth that makes them wrong.[c] It is what comes out of their mouth that makes them wrong.”
12. Then the followers came to Jesus and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees are upset about what you said?”
13. Jesus answered, “Every plant that my Father in heaven has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.
14. Stay away from the Pharisees. They lead the people, but they are like blind men leading other blind men. And if a blind man leads another blind man, both of them will fall into a ditch.”
15. Peter said, “Explain to us what you said earlier to the people.”
16. Jesus said, “Do you still have trouble understanding?
17. Surely you know that all the food that enters the mouth goes into the stomach. Then it goes out of the body.
18. But the bad things people say with their mouth come from the way they think. And that’s what can make people wrong.
19. All these bad things begin in the mind: evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual sins, stealing, lying, and insulting people.
20. These are the things that make people wrong. Eating without washing their hands will never make people unacceptable to God.”

However, for those people who live in the land of Canaan, part of the Old Covenant agreement is that all foreigners in the land obey the part to the law that God has required of them, irrespective of their belief. Meaning Christians, living in the land of Canaan, cannot openly, flout those rules as given them, and restated by the Apostles in Acts 15.

Kobojunkie:
As for Peter's view in Acts 15, well, we have to be sure we understand what is going on there. Recall that God made a promise to Abraham to give His descendants the land of Canaan, and from Genesis 10, we are told of the people who inhabitants of the land of Canaan.

And we know that when God made His Old Covenant through Moses with the descendants of Jacob, included were laws that foreigners who lived in the land were expected to keep to.

When the disciples gathered in Jerusalem, to debate what to do about the issue of what laws their gentile Christians who also lived in the land in the territory that was Canaan should do. That is why the disciples came up with the 4 rules which are part of the Old Covenant as what foreigners in the land were required to keep.

Well, at the time the first Christians, that land of Canaan included such places as Israel, Judea, Syria, and Cilicia, among others. Hence the reason why the letter written in Acts 15 is addressed to those in Syria and Cilicia.

Jesus Christ gave us a different dietary law meaning that following the old dietary law has nothing to do with our Health. According to Him, it is not what you eat that makes you unclean.

However, for those people who live in the land of Canaan, part of the Old Covenant agreement is that all foreigners in the land obey the part to the law that God has required of them, irrespective of their belief. Meaning Christians, living in the land of Canaan, cannot openly, flout those rules as given them, and restated by the Apostles in Acts 15.

You’re missing one bit though. If the law was good and perfect. Why did Peter refer to it as a yoke their ancestors could not bear?


Acts 15 v 8-11;

8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us,

9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

OkCornel:
You’re missing one bit though. If the law was good and perfect. Why did Peter refer to it as a yoke their ancestors could not bear?

The Old Covenant had 613 commandments in total and a burden that was borne, not by just the one who offended, in many cases, but by entire families, and even the entire Nation in some cases. One of such examples is the story of Achan in Joshua 7. Achan sinned against God but by stealing loot where God commanded against it. God didn't punish Achan immediately but instead told the people that they had sinned against Him. It was until much later that the people found out Achan's sin, and only then did God destroy Achan's family and everything He had.

As for a yoke, well, the New Covenant, Jesus Christ, also came offering you a different yoke and burden of His own. Only, HIs version is lighter and easier than that of the Old.

Matthew 11 vs 27-30 (ESV)
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27. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
28. Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

OkCornel:
You’re missing one bit though. If the law was good and perfect. Why did Peter refer to it as a yoke their ancestors could not bear?
Acts 15 v 8-11;
8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us,
9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

The Old Covenant had 613 commandments in total and a burden that was borne, not by just the one who offended, in many cases, but by entire families, and even the entire Nation in some cases. One such example is the story of Achan in Joshua 7. Achan sinned against God but by stealing loot where God commanded against it. God didn't punish Achan immediately but instead told the people that they had sinned against Him. It was until much later that the people found out Achan's sin, and only then did God destroy Achan's family and everything He had.

As for a yoke, well, the New Covenant, Jesus Christ, also came offering you a different yoke and burden of His own. Only, HIs version easier and lighter than that of the Old Covenant.

Matthew 11 vs 27-30 (ESV)
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27. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
28. Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

Definitely, with only about 50-something commandments, and with each person carrying their own cross, the New Covenant definitely has an easier yoke and a lighter burden for each one of us to bear!

Kobojunkie:
The Old Covenant had 613 commandments in total and a burden that was borne, not by just the one who offended, in many cases, but by entire families, and even the entire Nation in some cases. One of such examples is the story of Achan in Joshua 7. Achan sinned against God but by stealing loot where God commanded against it. God didn't punish Achan immediately but instead told the people that they had sinned against Him. It was until much later that the people found out Achan's sin, and only then did God destroy Achan's family and everything He had.

As for a yoke, well, the New Covenant, Jesus Christ, also came offering you a different yoke and burden of His own. Only, HIs version is lighter and easier than that of the Old.

Now we’re talking. Old covenant or new covenant. Old laws or new laws. Old Testament or New Testament. Old yoke ancestors could not bear versus Jesus’ lighter yoke.

Either way the coin falls, there are instructions that must be obeyed.

OkCornel:
Now we’re talking. Old covenant or new covenant. Old laws or new laws. Old Testament or New Testament. Old yoke ancestors could not bear versus Jesus’ lighter yoke.

Either way the coin falls, there are instructions that must be obeyed.

Precisely! God never changes, even His character remains the same ... from the beginning with Adam, till Jesus Christ... the key to God remains the same... TRUST AND OBEY! It is the only way to be justified by God.

Kobojunkie:
Precisely! God never changes, even His character remains the same ... from the beginning with Adam, till Jesus Christ... the key to God remains the same... TRUST AND OBEY! It is the only way to be justified by God.

Gbam!

Ken4Christ:
Ignorant person praising another ignorant one. When the blind leads the blind, they will both end up in the ditch.

Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become DEAD TO THE LAW by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Romans 7:6 But now we are DELIVERED FROM THE LAW, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the END OF THE LAW for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are NOT UNDER THE LAW, but under grace.

The evidences of the Scripture are too clear to be ignored. But instead of believing it, you will ignore it and quote your own. Maybe you were a Jehovah Witness. Because this is how they behave. They must win argument at all cost.

Oga Ken, read the below:

From one of the commenters:[/b] "...he (KEN4CHRIST) said The Law has been put away and dispensed with which he does not know that legally it means "man is living outside The Law, therefore man is living lawlessly". [Is this the message Lawyer Paul gave and should give?]

Which further means that The New Law he proposes that The Lord made is A Law of Lawless living...."[b]

From the Word:
*. Jeremiah 7 :8 "KJV:Behold, YE TRUST IN LYING WORDS, THAT CANNOT PROFIT.
9
KJV: WILL YE STEAL, MURDER, and COMMIT ADULTERY, and SWEAR FALSELY, and BURN INCENSE UNTO BAAL, and walk after other gods whom ye know not;
10
KJV: AND COME AND STAND BEFORE ME IN THIS HOUSE, which is called by my name, AND SAY, WE ARE DELIVERED TO DO ALL THESE ABOMINATIONS?
11
KJV:Is this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, even I have seen it, saith the Lord."

Note:
"... YE TRUST IN LYING WORDS, THAT CANNOT PROFIT.... WILL YE STEAL, MURDER, COMMIT ADULTERY, SWEAR FALSELY, BURN INCENSE UNTO BAAL,...AND COME AND STAND BEFORE ME IN THIS HOUSE,...AND SAY, WE ARE DELIVERED TO DO ALL THESE ABOMINATIONS?

The law of killing animals to appease God's wrath have been stopped... any thing else you are posting against this is not true

*. Ephesians 5:3 "KJV:But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4
KJV:Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5
KJV:For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6
KJV: LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU WITH VAIN WORDS: FOR BECAUSE OF THESE THINGS COMETH THE WRATH OF GOD UPON THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE."

readers take note:
"LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU WITH VAIN WORDS: FOR BECAUSE OF THESE THINGS COMETH THE WRATH OF GOD UPON THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE."

OBEDIENCE ( to the law) is the very sure way to show that you believe...

Good night friends

KNOWMORE56:
Oga Ken, read the below:

From one of the commenters:[/b] "...he (KEN4CHRIST) said The Law has been put away and dispensed with which he does not know that legally it means "man is living outside The Law, therefore man is living lawlessly". [Is this the message Lawyer Paul gave and should give?]

Which further means that The New Law he proposes that The Lord made is A Law of Lawless living...."[b]

From the Word:
*. Jeremiah 7 :8 "KJV:Behold, YE TRUST IN LYING WORDS, THAT CANNOT PROFIT.
9
KJV: WILL YE STEAL, MURDER, and COMMIT ADULTERY, and SWEAR FALSELY, and BURN INCENSE UNTO BAAL, and walk after other gods whom ye know not;
10
KJV: AND COME AND STAND BEFORE ME IN THIS HOUSE, which is called by my name, AND SAY, WE ARE DELIVERED TO DO ALL THESE ABOMINATIONS?
11
KJV:Is this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, even I have seen it, saith the Lord."

Note:
"... YE TRUST IN LYING WORDS, THAT CANNOT PROFIT.... WILL YE STEAL, MURDER, COMMIT ADULTERY, SWEAR FALSELY, BURN INCENSE UNTO BAAL,...AND COME AND STAND BEFORE ME IN THIS HOUSE,...AND SAY, WE ARE DELIVERED TO DO ALL THESE ABOMINATIONS?

The law of killing animals to appease God's wrath have been stopped... any thing else you are posting against this is not true

*. Ephesians 5:3 "KJV:But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4
KJV:Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5
KJV:For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6
KJV: LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU WITH VAIN WORDS: FOR BECAUSE OF THESE THINGS COMETH THE WRATH OF GOD UPON THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE."

readers take note:
"LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU WITH VAIN WORDS: FOR BECAUSE OF THESE THINGS COMETH THE WRATH OF GOD UPON THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE."

OBEDIENCE ( to the law) is the very sure way to show that you believe...

Good night friends

Make your argument based on the evidences of the Scripture and not on reasoning. Refute each of the Scripture I quoted otherwise remain silent on this subject. We are not asking for personal opinions.

The teachings of our Lord Jesus and his Apostles are enough to guide us to live the Christian life. And his grace is sufficient for us.

Tomorrow, when you get married, give your wife commandments and laws and see how you will enjoy your marriage.

I don't know why people prefer to be in bondage when Christ has offered us liberty.

Kobojunkie:
Notice, as I said, you are still pitching Paul against Jesus Christ, the Word of God. Paul believed in the Law of 2 or 3 witnesses as far as the establishment of a Truth, and as Jesus Christ said to the Pharisees, His Father is one witness, and He is another witness...

So, where are all the other witnesses you have to this claim that the Old Covenant Law has been abolished UNKNOWINGLY by God since according to Jesus Christ, it can never happen?

Please get a reading glass and read again. Or get someone to interpret the verses to you in pidgin English. Even a primary school pupil will understand the Scripture I have quoted so far. They are not ambiguous.

I am not pitching Paul against Christ. The teachings of Apostle Paul was given to him by Christ himself. Your problem is that you don't understand what Jesus said in Matthew 5:17 - 18.

Our Lord Jesus simply said he is not using his authority to abolish the Law on an unjustified manner. He said that the Law of Moses should still be kept until it is fulfilled.

Check out the dictionary meaning of the word fulfill. It means to bring to an end. It also means to meet a requirement.

The death of Jesus on the cross met the demand of Justice for the sin Adam committed. So, he fulfilled the Law of Moses and ended it in a justified manner.

The Jews who were under the law of Moses were redeemed from the Law and grace was ushered in to accommodate both the Jews and the Gentiles.

Ephesians 2:14-16
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having ABOLISHED in his flesh the enmity, even the LAW OF COMMANDMENTS contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby.

The terms used in virtually all the Scriptures I have quoted so far are very clear.

Look at the passage above. It said that the Law of commandments has been abolished.

What else do you want to hear. Why are people so dull of understanding?

I pity the ignorant state of a large percentage of the church.

Must you win an argument even in the face of overwhelming evidences against yours?

Kobojunkie:
What many others? While the major evidence is God Himself declaring that it will never happen, do you realize the implications of saying what God said is untrue?
If you say that the above is not evidence enough, what you are saying is that God lied and Jesus Christ is a fraud!
I am not sure how many of these random verses you include here somehow provide backing for your above claim.

Please stop making things up! What Jesus Christ said to the men was from the Old Covenant Law itself, and the decision they made after being carefully reminded by Jesus Christ Himself of what the rule was as far as stoning persons to death was, was theirs. Jesus Christ did not stop them but simply reminded them of What God in fact said must be the case for such proceedings, which is, according to the Old Covenant laws of sin and death, the one who stood to condemn the woman had to cast the first stone.

I get that many of you think that Jesus Christ is somehow being pitched against the Old Covenant Laws but the truth is the same Word of God that came to Moses and gave him the Old Covenant Law is the same Word of God that came down to give you the New Covenant Law. So, can a Kingdom be divided against its own self? Ask yourself that question next time you think of pitching the New Covenant against the Old Covenant.
I am afraid you are mistaken.. you never had an Old Law, to begin with. You are a Gentile and were never included, by God Himself, in His Old Covenant with His people, Israel. Read the fine prints again...

As for the "too-many scriptures" that you claim affirm that the Law of Moses has been abolished, where are they. You only quoted several lines from one person, Paul. According to the law of 2 or 3 witnesses, Paul is only one witness against what Jesus Christ Himself said. So where are the other witnesses who say that indeed the Old Covenant Law has been abolished by Jesus Christ?
I am afraid saying you have done something and showing it are two different things.

All you continue to do here is show you have read Paul's claims and you have thoroughly digested your own "special interpretation" of what he said. Why else would a gentile Christian, who was never under the Old Law, continue to quote verses that apply only to the Jewish Christians, as evidence for his claim that somehow Jesus Christ, without realizing it, abolished the Old Covenant Laws?

Your blindness seems incurable. I really pity your state. Just continue to ignore the many verses that affirms that the Law of Moses has been abolished.

I have explained Matthew 5:17-18 but you still don't understand. The word fulfill means to put to an end in this context. Our Lord said the Law will not be abolished arbitrarily but will be done in a justified manner. And this he has done by his death on the cross.

The project you wrote in school in your final year is in partial fulfillment of the requirements for your graduation. Now that you have fulfilled the requirements, you are free to graduate from that level.

Hence Apostle Paul wrote;

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the END OF THE LAW for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Paul even said those trying to practice the Law of Moses are transgressing. They are the one committing sin.

Galatians 2:18-19
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I MAKE MYSELF A TRANSGRESSOR.

19 For I through the law am DEAD TO THE LAW, that I might live unto God.

I am even more shocked that a large percentage of Nairaland Christians don't even understand this subject. I expect contributions from a few people who understand it.

I hope to make videos very soon on this and other subjects that are not clearly understood by the church.

To KNOWMORE56

Ken4Christ:
Make your argument based on the evidences of the Scripture and not on reasoning.

To Kobojunkie

Please get a reading glass and read again. Or get someone to interpret the verses to you in pidgin English

One thing Jesus promised you for rejecting his GROUP: you will never find a single person that will agree with you on terms and conditions of worship, instead you will forever continue to argue and argue and argue unless you quietly worship together keeping what you believe only to yourself. Whenever you try to interact with those you think are your fellow believers, it will always turn to arguments, insults, abuses, curses and if care is not taken FIGHT! Luke 11:23

You can only find one big and happy family of peace loving worshipers globally and only in their midst that they can interact with LOVE, JOY and PEACE on terms and conditions of worship: JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES! John 17:20-23

KNOWMORE56:
You are doing great concerning the the Law...
and it is noble to give attention to lawyers when it comes to law

Thanks for the appreciation, For Everything in and under this world is Law'd!

Ken4Christ:
If you are born again, you will know that we are living in the dispensation of grace..

Therefore, ye say that God was not Grace-full or Gracious, in the days past before His Visitation to the world.

See, how you know too little? For Grace Always Follows God!

Is this not God's Grace in Action, if you shall Concede Truly?

I Call on my first Witness 1) Abraham - Genesis 18: 23-32
"Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

26 And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.

29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.

30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.

31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.

32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake

Was The Lord not Gracious to Abraham?

Witness 2) Moses; Exodus 32:7 -14
7 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:

9 And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

11 And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?

14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Did not Moses on behalf of the unruly people of Israel get the Graciousness of The Lord?

Witnesses 3) David
The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.
Psalm 103:8

It is Written "The mercy of the LORD is from EVERLASTING TO EVERLASTING upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;"

Dtruthspeaker:
Therefore, ye say that God was not Grace-full or Gracious, in the days past before His Visitation to the world.

See, how you know too little? For Grace Always Follows God!

Is this not God's Grace in Action, if you shall Concede Truly?

I Call on my first Witness 1) Abraham - Genesis 18: 23-32
"Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

26 And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.

29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.

30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.

31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.

32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake

Was The Lord not Gracious to Abraham?

Witness 2) Moses; Exodus 32:7 -14
7 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:

9 And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

11 And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?

14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Did not Moses on behalf of the unruly people of Israel get the Graciousness of The Lord?

Witnesses 3) David
The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.
Psalm 103:8

It is Written "The mercy of the LORD is from EVERLASTING TO EVERLASTING upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;"

Yes, there were some elements of grace before the Law of Moses was given but not in the same sense we have it now.

The grace that is revealed now brings complete redemption from the power of darkness and it qualifies everyone who embraces it to become the sons of God.

Ken4Christ:
Yes, there were some elements of grace before the Law of Moses was given but not in the same sense we have it now.

The grace that is revealed now brings complete redemption from the power of darkness and it qualifies everyone who embraces it to become the sons of God.

I thank you for saying the Truth and Admitting that indeed there was "Grace" even if you choose to make it sound too little in saying "elements"!

However, we all do know that the "Graces" exhibited to Abraham, Moses, David, Rebellious Israelites ARE NO LITTLE OR SMALL GRACES!

For, from the beginning of the Bible to the end thereof, without change and without fail "Grace" is Always been inclusive of Mercies, Special Favours, Grants and Permissions, Assistance and Allowances, Special Status and Standings, Immunity from Prosecution and Condemnation, Personal Protection, Forgiveness, any and every Good Thing that can be obtained from The Lord!

Ken4Christ:
Your blindness seems incurable. I really pity your state. Just continue to ignore the many verses that affirms that the Law of Moses has been abolished.
I have explained Matthew 5:17-18 but you still don't understand. The word fulfill means to put to an end in this context. Our Lord said the Law will not be abolished arbitrarily but will be done in a justified manner. And this he has done by his death on the cross.
The project you wrote in school in your final year is in partial fulfillment of the requirements for your graduation. Now that you have fulfilled the requirements, you are free to graduate from that level.
Hence Apostle Paul wrote;
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the END OF THE LAW for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Paul even said those trying to practice the Law of Moses are transgressing. They are the one committing sin.
Galatians 2:18-19
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I MAKE MYSELF A TRANSGRESSOR.
19 For I through the law am DEAD TO THE LAW, that I might live unto God.

I am even more shocked that a large percentage of Nairaland Christians don't even understand this subject. I expect contributions from a few people who understand it.
I hope to make videos very soon on this and other subjects that are not clearly understood by the church.

Again, Jesus Christ said that every matter must be established by the accounts of two or three witnesses. In this case, the matter is the Old Covenant and whether it has been abolished or not.

In the book of Genesis where God is said to have made the covenant with Abraham, God is said to have made it clear that this covenant was indeed an eternal covenant with his, Abraham's, descendants.

Genesis 17 vs 1-8 (ESV)
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1. When Abram was ninety-nine years old the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am God Almighty;[a] walk before me, and be blameless,
2. that I may make my covenant between me and you, and may multiply you greatly.”
3. Then Abram fell on his face. And God said to him,
4. “Behold, my covenant is with you, and you shall be the father of a multitude of nations.
5. No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham,[c] for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.
[b] 6. I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you.
7. And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you.
8. And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God.”

In Numbers, while speaking to Aaron(Moses's brother) and the other Levites, God declares that indeed this is an Everlasting covenant that He makes with them.
Witnesses to God's everlasting Covenant

Numbers 18 vs 14- (ESV)
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14. Every devoted thing in Israel shall be yours.
15. Everything that opens the womb of all flesh, whether man or beast, which they offer to the Lord, shall be yours. Nevertheless, the firstborn of man you shall redeem, and the firstborn of unclean animals you shall redeem.
16. And their redemption price (at a month old you shall redeem them) you shall fix at five shekels[b] in silver, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, which is twenty gerahs.
17. But the firstborn of a cow, or the firstborn of a sheep, or the firstborn of a goat, you shall not redeem; they are holy. You shall sprinkle their blood on the altar and shall burn their fat as a food offering, with a pleasing aroma to the Lord.
18. But their flesh shall be yours, as the breast that is waved and as the right thigh are yours.
19. All the holy contributions that the people of Israel present to the Lord I give to you, and to your sons and daughters with you, as a perpetual due. It is a covenant of salt forever before the Lord for you and for your offspring with you.”
20. And the Lord said to Aaron, “You shall have no inheritance in their land, neither shall you have any portion among them. I am your portion and your inheritance among the people of Israel.

In Deuteronomy, Moses is made by God, the notary on the Covenant and he, Moses, indeed declares that this Covenant is eternal .i.e. forever between God and the Children of Israel.

Deuteronomy 30 vs 15-20 (ERV)
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15. “Today I have given you a choice between life and death, success and disaster.
16. I command you today to love the Lord your God. I command you to follow him and to obey his commands, laws, and rules. Then you will live, and your nation will grow larger. And the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take for your own.
17. But if you turn away from your God and refuse to listen, if you are led away to worship and serve other gods,
18. you will be destroyed. I am warning you today, if you turn away from God, you will not live long in that land across the Jordan River that you are ready to enter and take for your own.

19. “Today I am giving you a choice of two ways. And I ask heaven and earth to be witnesses of your choice. You can choose life or death. The first choice will bring a blessing. The other choice will bring a curse. So choose life! Then you and your children will live.
20. You must love the Lord your God and obey him. Never leave him, because he is your life. And he will give you a long life in the land that he, the Lord, promised to give to your ancestors—Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”

King David, in one of his many songs, declares that indeed this Covenant is meant to last forever between God and the descendants of Israel

1 Chronicles 16 vs 12- 18(ESV)
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12. Remember the wondrous works that he has done, his miracles and the judgments he uttered,
13. O offspring of Israel his servant, children of Jacob, his chosen ones!
14. He is the Lord our God; his judgments are in all the earth.
15. Remember his covenant forever, the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations,
16. the covenant that he made with Abraham, his sworn promise to Isaac,
17. which he confirmed to Jacob as a statute, to Israel as an everlasting covenant,
18. saying, “To you I will give the land of Canaan, as your portion for an inheritance.”

And then in Matthew, God again, through Jesus Christ, tells you that the Old Covenant is an Everlasting Covenant between Himself and the People of Israel

Matthew 5 vs 17(ESV)
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17. “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

According to the Law of two or three witnesses which is both path of the Old Covenant, and the New Covenant, it is by the word of 2 or 3 witness that a fact/truth should be established. And so far, the only witness you continue to provide as far as your claim that the Old Covenant has been dismantled, abolished, by God too, is Paul. Why is that?

Ken4Christ:
I am not pitching Paul against Christ. The teachings of Apostle Paul was given to him by Christ himself. Your problem is that you don't understand what Jesus said in Matthew 5:17 - 18.
Our Lord Jesus simply said he is not using his authority to abolish the Law on an unjustified manner. He said that the Law of Moses should still be kept until it is fulfilled.

What part of Matthew 5 vs 17-18 do you have Jesus Christ making this exact claim you make here of His person?

Ken4Christ:
The death of Jesus on the cross met the demand of Justice for the sin Adam committed. So, he fulfilled the Law of Moses and ended it in a justified manner.

Where did Jesus Christ tell you that His death holds this meaning?

Ken4Christ:
The Jews who were under the law of Moses were redeemed from the Law and grace was ushered in to accommodate both the Jews and the Gentiles.

Ephesians 2:14-16
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having ABOLISHED in his flesh the enmity, even the LAW OF COMMANDMENTS contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby. The terms used in virtually all the Scriptures I have quoted so far are very clear.
Look at the passage above. It said that the Law of commandments has been abolished.
What else do you want to hear. Why are people so dull of understanding?
I pity the ignorant state of a large percentage of the church.
Must you win an argument even in the face of overwhelming evidences against yours?

Again, Jesus Christ said that every matter must be established by the accounts of two or three witnesses. In this case, the matter is the Old Covenant and whether it has been abolished or not.

In the book of Genesis where God is said to have made the covenant with Abraham, God is said to have made it clear that this covenant was indeed an eternal covenant with his, Abraham's, descendants.

Genesis 17 vs 1-8 (ESV)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. When Abram was ninety-nine years old the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am God Almighty;[a] walk before me, and be blameless,
2. that I may make my covenant between me and you, and may multiply you greatly.”
3. Then Abram fell on his face. And God said to him,
4. “Behold, my covenant is with you, and you shall be the father of a multitude of nations.
5. No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham,[c] for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.
[b] 6. I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you.
7. And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you.
8. And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God.”

In Numbers, while speaking to Aaron(Moses's brother) and the other Levites, God declares that indeed this is an Everlasting covenant that He makes with them.
Witnesses to God's everlasting Covenant

Numbers 18 vs 14- (ESV)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
14. Every devoted thing in Israel shall be yours.
15. Everything that opens the womb of all flesh, whether man or beast, which they offer to the Lord, shall be yours. Nevertheless, the firstborn of man you shall redeem, and the firstborn of unclean animals you shall redeem.
16. And their redemption price (at a month old you shall redeem them) you shall fix at five shekels[b] in silver, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, which is twenty gerahs.
17. But the firstborn of a cow, or the firstborn of a sheep, or the firstborn of a goat, you shall not redeem; they are holy. You shall sprinkle their blood on the altar and shall burn their fat as a food offering, with a pleasing aroma to the Lord.
18. But their flesh shall be yours, as the breast that is waved and as the right thigh are yours.
19. All the holy contributions that the people of Israel present to the Lord I give to you, and to your sons and daughters with you, as a perpetual due. It is a covenant of salt forever before the Lord for you and for your offspring with you.”
20. And the Lord said to Aaron, “You shall have no inheritance in their land, neither shall you have any portion among them. I am your portion and your inheritance among the people of Israel.

In Deuteronomy, Moses is made by God, the notary on the Covenant and he, Moses, indeed declares that this Covenant is eternal .i.e. forever between God and the Children of Israel.

Deuteronomy 30 vs 15-20 (ERV)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
15. “Today I have given you a choice between life and death, success and disaster.
16. I command you today to love the Lord your God. I command you to follow him and to obey his commands, laws, and rules. Then you will live, and your nation will grow larger. And the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take for your own.
17. But if you turn away from your God and refuse to listen, if you are led away to worship and serve other gods,
18. you will be destroyed. I am warning you today, if you turn away from God, you will not live long in that land across the Jordan River that you are ready to enter and take for your own.

19. “Today I am giving you a choice of two ways. And I ask heaven and earth to be witnesses of your choice. You can choose life or death. The first choice will bring a blessing. The other choice will bring a curse. So choose life! Then you and your children will live.
20. You must love the Lord your God and obey him. Never leave him, because he is your life. And he will give you a long life in the land that he, the Lord, promised to give to your ancestors—Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”

King David, in one of his many songs, declares that indeed this Covenant is meant to last forever between God and the descendants of Israel

1 Chronicles 16 vs 12- 18(ESV)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12. Remember the wondrous works that he has done, his miracles and the judgments he uttered,
13. O offspring of Israel his servant, children of Jacob, his chosen ones!
14. He is the Lord our God; his judgments are in all the earth.
15. Remember his covenant forever, the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations,
16. the covenant that he made with Abraham, his sworn promise to Isaac,
17. which he confirmed to Jacob as a statute, to Israel as an everlasting covenant,
18. saying, “To you I will give the land of Canaan, as your portion for an inheritance.”

And then in Matthew, God again, through Jesus Christ, tells you that the Old Covenant is an Everlasting Covenant between Himself and the People of Israel

Matthew 5 vs 17(ESV)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
17. “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

According to the Law of two or three witnesses which is both path of the Old Covenant, and the New Covenant, it is by the word of 2 or 3 witnesses that a fact/truth should be established. And so far, the only witness you continue to provide as far as your claim that the Old Covenant has been dismantled, abolished, by God too, is Paul. Why is that?

Kobojunkie:
Precisely! God never changes, even His character remains the same ... from the beginning with Adam, till Jesus Christ... the key to God remains the same... TRUST AND OBEY! It is the only way to be justified by God.

[/b]"....TRUST AND OBEY!..."[b]

What is like it....?
" Trust and obey for there's no other way to be happy in Jesus but to trust and obey"

One of the stanzas read "... for the favor He shows and the blessings He bestows are for them who will trust and obey"

KEN4CHRIST no go deceive people to be lawless please...

Kobojunkie:
Right, those laws were never a concern for the gentiles back then and are still not a concern for gentiles even to this day. The Old Covenant Law is a law that only applies to Jewish people and those who live in Israel.

There are Jewish communities(non-Christian) in Israel, to this day, where those laws are practiced. Are they condemned by God for it? God forbid... they are living as God commanded they should so why would He condemn them for honoring the very Law that He gave to their father Abraham?

I don't even believe God directly gave men laws. They were just inspired. Tell me, has God changed? would he give you a law to stone virgins or burn your promiscuous daughters, this is why it seems to me the laws were just mosaic laws.

GeneralDae:
I don't even believe God directly gave men laws. They were just inspired. Tell me, has God changed? would he give you a law to stone virgins or burn your promiscuous daughters, this is why it seems to me the laws were just mosaic laws.

Well, you are told that the same God commanded Abraham to kill for Him his first son, which he, Abraham, almost did.

I do believe that God indeed gave the people of Israel the Law of Moses in keeping with the agreement which He made with Abraham, their father. Or it would not have made sense that God sent Jesus Christ, His other plan for Abraham, without first keeping the promise He made directly with Abraham.

Kobojunkie:
Well, you are told that the same God commanded Abraham to kill for Him his first son, which he, Abraham, almost did.

I do believe that God indeed gave the people of Israel the Law of Moses in keeping with the agreement which He made with Abraham, their father. Or it would not have made sense that God sent Jesus Christ, His other plan for Abraham, without first keeping the promise He made directly with Abraham.

Well that would be a topic for another day as I would not derail the thread. There are so many things the Israelites said God did or commanded them to do that definitely look fishy. And those laws of burning promiscuous daughters and stuff like that do not align well. Anyway topic for another day.

GeneralDae:
Well that would be a topic for another day as I would not derail the thread. There are so many things the Israelites said God did or commanded them to do that definitely look fishy. And those laws of burning promiscuous daughters and stuff like that do not align well. Anyway topic for another day.

Where exactly do you find this law of burning promiscuous daughters from?
If it is defined in any one of the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, then it is listed as part of the agreement between God and the people.

Kobojunkie:
Where exactly do you find this law of burning promiscuous daughters from?
If it is defined in any one of the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, then it is listed as part of the agreement between God and the people.

If a priest's daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire.

Leviticus 21v9.

How could God have such an agreement? is it possible? Anyway.

GeneralDae:
If a priest's daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire.
Leviticus 21v9.
How could God have such an agreement? is it possible? Anyway.

With the Levites? Absolutely it is possible. You need to know who the Levites were supposed to be as far as God's agreement was concerned. They were meant as God's Policemen/Enforcers as far as the Kingdom of Israel was concerned and He held them and their families to standards higher than that He placed on those of the other tribes of Israel for good reason too.

Do you know how God decided to choose those of the tribe of Levi for the role they were to play?
Not to mince words, they murdered 3000 of their brothers when Moses asked them to do, even though they were all guilty of the same sins(worshipping the golden calf), in Exodus 32.

You should also read the book of Leviticus to learn a bit of this higher standard God had for them, and how on day one, Aaron's 2 sons went down dead because of their disobedience.

Kobojunkie:
With the Levites? Absolutely it is possible. You need to know who the Levites were supposed to be as far as God's agreement was concerned. They were meant as God's Policemen/Enforcers as far as the Kingdom of Israel was concerned and He held them and their families to standards higher than that He placed on those of the other tribes of Israel for good reason too.

Do you know how God decided to choose those of the tribe of Levi for the role they were to play?
Not to mince words, they murdered 3000 of their brothers when Moses asked them to do, even though they were all guilty of the same sins(worshipping the golden calf), in Exodus 32.

You should also read the book of Leviticus to learn a bit of this higher standard God had for them, and how on day one, Aaron's 2 sons went down dead because of their disobedience.

it's alright, let's leave it at that. To me, it all seems like laws and workings of men and men alone.
God commanding them to kill 3000 of their brothers. We know that if a community does that today and says God commanded them to do so, we would see it as highly unlikely.

Ken4Christ:
Make your argument based on the evidences of the Scripture and not on reasoning. Refute each of the Scripture I quoted otherwise remain silent on this subject. We are not asking for personal opinions.

The teachings of our Lord Jesus and his Apostles are enough to guide us to live the Christian life. And his grace is sufficient for us.

Tomorrow, when you get married, give your wife commandments and laws and see how you will enjoy your marriage.

I don't know why people prefer to be in bondage when Christ has offered us liberty.

Please post what somebody like me can understand... if you can answer the question below it will do...

You mean those who are saved by grace through faith are now free to go and kill, commit adultery, steal, bear false witness?

Is it your understanding of the places you have been quoting?


From the Word:
*. Jeremiah 7 :8 "KJV:Behold, YE TRUST IN LYING WORDS, THAT CANNOT PROFIT.
9
KJV: WILL YE STEAL, MURDER, and COMMIT ADULTERY, and SWEAR FALSELY, and BURN INCENSE UNTO BAAL, and walk after other gods whom ye know not;
10
KJV: AND COME AND STAND BEFORE ME IN THIS HOUSE, which is called by my name, AND SAY, WE ARE DELIVERED TO DO ALL THESE ABOMINATIONS?
11
KJV:Is this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, even I have seen it, saith the Lord."

Note:
"... YE TRUST IN LYING WORDS, THAT CANNOT PROFIT.... WILL YE STEAL, MURDER, COMMIT ADULTERY, SWEAR FALSELY, BURN INCENSE UNTO BAAL,...AND COME AND STAND BEFORE ME IN THIS HOUSE,...AND SAY, WE ARE DELIVERED TO DO ALL THESE ABOMINATIONS?

GeneralDae:
it's alright, let's leave it at that. To me, it all seems like laws and workings of men and men alone.
God commanding them to kill 3000 of their brothers. We know that if a community does that today and says God commanded them to do so, we would see it as highly unlikely.

To appreciate the Laws, both the Old and New Covenants, you have to read through to understand where God is coming from in each case and the why. Recall that God wanted to be the "President" of the Kingdom of Israel, and the Old Covenant was set up as the Law over His Nation, just as we have Laws in every Nation today. God never asked Man to "Worship" Him.... He asked Man to Trust and Obey Him like they would a King, but men kept setting up religion between God and themselves.

Anyways, as part of the same Law, God had such laws as "love thy neighbor...", and for the extremes cases(according to God's judgment", He had the extreme punishments added

Leviticus 19 vs 15-18 (ERV)
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15. “You shall do no injustice in court. You shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor.
16. You shall not go around as a slanderer among your people, and you shall not stand up against the life[a] of your neighbor: I am the Lord.
17. “You shall not hate your brother in your heart, but you shall reason frankly with your neighbor, lest you incur sin because of him.
18. You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

The Nation was billed to be God's Holy Nation -- well, it will be when Jesus Christ returns to reign over it for 1000 years, according to the other side of the story.
Remember, this story is unique to Israel and no other nation or people. God knew to take care of His own people too, even to this day. No other community of people can make the same claim that they make because no others have that amount of confidence.