MaxInDHouse:


If you call 10,000,000 different readers to say something about Jesus the only reason why two of them can agree perfectly is after studying the book together.
So don't worry, i'm not going to challenge your stand on whatever you concluded on Jesus of Nazareth in your heart after reading the Bible!
One thing i await is just a GROUP of people whose faith in Jesus is uniformed because that is the only reason why they'll work together as ONE with the Father and the Son just as Jesus prayed for in the Bible! John 17:20-23

Anything apart from that is STORY STORY STORY to me!

MaxInDHouse:
Sorry jare, i hate arguing fruitlessly when i see EVIDENCE.
Jesus is the Archangel Michael and he has been working with JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES since the year 1914 till date.
So if anyone wants to disprove that fact it's not going to be the Bible anymore because there are over 42,000 different religious sects with contradicting teachings and conflicting doctrines all claiming CHRISTIANS.
Why aren't they united in faith the way Jesus prayed for? John 17 20-23
Well it's due to the same problem of fruitless arguments with no PRACTICAL BENEFITS!

Therefore if anyone wants to disprove the JWs claim, let him just PRESENT a GROUP of people PRACTICING Christianity better than Jehovah's Witnesses globally! Act 1:8

Ah, yes. The standard "Max fallback" when he wants to avoid a portion of Truth he doesn't agree with.
JWs are like any other religion... they have some right doctrines, some wrong ones, they baptize, they try to discern prophecy, etc.
But even some atheists are seemingly nice to people sometimes, and even the devil tries to present himself as an angel of light sometimes.
The JWs also have high attrition rates, and maybe the highest attrition rate of any religion worldwide.
I'm not bashing JWs, but you can't just pretend "they are it" when not all JWs will be Saved, and many who are not JWs will be Saved.
I've seen you, Max, also act non-Christian sometimes out here as well, so your Walk still has some room to grow (as does mine).

The fact is the overwhelming majority of those who claim "Christian" do not care to remove the sin out of their lives.
And that's because they do not Love like God and Jesus say any believer of Theirs should... by giving up "self" and following Them instead.
I already told you before, if the JWs truly Loved God, they'd keep the Bible Sabbath instead of the "Catholic" "sabbath" invented by men.
But JWs still hold fast to Sunday.
And there are other examples, but no one cares anyway...

When you can claim all JWs are sin free, then you have something to boast about.
But if not, I'd say that the numbers of Catholics who practice whatever religion they like far exceeds the JWs, and they have some good works too, like not supporting the murdering of the unborn (abortion).
But, like the JWs, they too keep wrong things because their leaders think they're "so religious".
If fact, sin-keeping "religion" is what we are called to escape: "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues." - Revelation 18:4 (NKJV)
Pride is a killer...

Sometimes I agree with BK, sometimes I agree with Max.
And sometimes I disagree with them when the Bible tells me something different.
Well, I know if I can get BK and Max to battle against the undeniable Truth I pointed out, that it surely is the Truth.

Even so, I still Love you both.

awitness41:

Even so, I still Love you both.

Just as i love everyone around me equally as my neighbours {Mark 12:29-31} but the type of LOVE my Master, Lord and King commaded me to have for my fellow believers supercedes that of neighbours {John 13:34-35} i share that with no one else but JWs! Galatians 6:10

So stay cool my friend you have no problem!

awitness41:


BK, when Jesus was on Earth in the flesh, did He pray to Himself, or to His Father, God ?
BK, when Jesus ascended to Heaven, did He sit down at His own right hand, or the hand of God His Father ?
The Two are separate entities, Jesus says this Himself.
And please -- answer the two questions above (not that I'm going to track you down if you don't... I'm not a nose-grinding face-masher like so many out here.)

When Jesus says if you see Him, you see His Father... it obviously is just saying that He has the Father in Him, and that's why He acts just like God does. Jesus wasn't saying that those who saw Him were literally seeing God Himself. You know this, too... it has to be taken in light of all other Scripture, and not just cherry-picked out as a single Verse.

Yes, there is God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, just as Jesus says.

You, nor Max, nor anyone can disprove anything I said above... and that's because it's simply the Truth when considering ALL Scripture being taken together, and throwing away none.

Believe what you want, and I won't condemn you for it, but I did not lie in what I said above.

Question
BK, when Jesus was on Earth in the flesh, did He pray to Himself, or to His Father, God ?
BK, when Jesus ascended to Heaven, did He sit down at His own right hand, or the hand of God His Father ?

Answer

First you need to know who Jesus is
Jesus is complete man and complete God almighty

did He pray to Himself,......... As a complete man the scriptures commands all men to pray to God that why he equally has to obey this set of rules no exemption

He as a man has to feel what other men feel that how he can be the perfect sacrifice the thirst, hungers, shit, equally can die. All the things that can befall Adam can touch him because he is the second Adam

AND as God he Jesus can equally do what only God can do like forgive sins, raise himself back to life, cast out Devils with his finger which is the finger of God almighty
Notice God has ability to be in heaven and equally be on earth at the same time so as God the son on earth he can look up and call on God the father in heaven

Notice Jesus brought many new things which God the father said he will do on his own in the old testament

did He pray to Himself,......... Notice God has the ability to be in heaven and equally be on on earth at the same time, and the father can appear in heaven and the son can appear in heaven too at the same time
Why do people find it strange God praying or speaking to himself in genesis did God not speak to himself when he said let us make man.... In Hebrew God swear by himself

Hebrews 6:13
When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself,

It just later as revealed information came in that we knew it one manifestation of God speaking to the other manifestation

God was looking at his three dimensions existence when he was speaking to himself as he created Adam
Jesus is the real express image of God so God did not just imagine the shape of Adam when creating Adam he was already like man just not flesh body but exactly the shape of man when he created Adam


Question
BK, when Jesus was on Earth in the flesh, did He pray to Himself, or to His Father, God ?
BK, when Jesus ascended to Heaven, did He sit down at His own right hand, or the hand of God His Father ?

Answer
The sitting at right hand of God means At the Rightfull place Jesus is God Almighty he is God sitting in his throne which is God's throne

It please God the father to dwell in Jesus all the God head dwell in Jesus there is nothing like Jesus sitting differently from God the father no

Notice when the disciples told Jesus we want to sit at your right and left side Jesus did not say no that left side is for my father rather he said it for those who God kept it for,,,, “Those places belong to those for whom they have been prepared.”,,, Jesus explains that it is God's decision who takes the seats of honour in Heaven,,,,

To understand this things
God manifest as the Father to do a specific work
God manifest as the son to equally do a specific work
God manifest as the holy spirit to do a specific work

When God manifest as the Father his personality is different from the son equally different from the holy spirit

Just like your soul personality is different from the body and the spirit

Your soul can speak

Your spirit can speak

Your body (flesh blood) can speak

I have explained this things many times in nairaland it all in the scriptures

The only reason I understand it because God revealed it to me and those who know it have confirmed it too if you do research

Nothing you ask me that I won't try to explain it besides I have seen Jesus on the throne holy spirit took me in the spirit to see him so I know what I speak.

Question
When Jesus says if you see Him, you see His Father... it obviously is just saying that He has the Father in Him, and that's why He acts just like God does.

Answer

Half truth also because God almighty in the father is also in Jesus because Jesus is God Almighty too that why Bible calls him everlasting father too.

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6, ESV).

Jesus calls God the father God
And God the father also calls Jesus God
The holy spirit also bears all this names too

God revealed himself as the Father first that why his position is the head

Then God now revealed himself as God the son Jesus we now call him the second person in position

God then revealed himself as the holy spirit we call him the third person of the God head

Note there is no difference we are just following the order which God does things

Now who is God
God has no limits
So if God stretch his hand it has no limits
God can't enter heaven because it can't contain him so what did he do he manifest as the Father to be able to enter heaven

To enter earth what did he do he manifest as the son of man so that earth won't melt so that earth can contain him

God wants to help each believer the same way Jesus did to the disciples what did he do he manifest as the holy spirit
The holy spirit ability is to be everywhere at the same time

Bishopkingsley:



Question
BK, when Jesus was on Earth in the flesh, did He pray to Himself, or to His Father, God ?
BK, when Jesus ascended to Heaven, did He sit down at His own right hand, or the hand of God His Father ?

Answer

First you need to know who Jesus is
Jesus is complete man and complete God almighty

did He pray to Himself,....

BK, I want you to know that I did read all of what you wrote.
We still disagree, but that's okay.
Thanks for speaking your heart on the matter.
Peace to you.

awitness41:


BK, I want you to know that I did read all of what you wrote.
We still disagree, but that's okay.
Thanks for speaking your heart on the matter.
Peace to you.

Welcome

But

Why do people find it strange God praying or speaking to himself in genesis did God not speak to himself when he said let us make man.... In Hebrew God swear by himself

Bishopkingsley:
But

Why do people find it strange God praying or speaking to himself in genesis did God not speak to himself when he said let us make man.... In Hebrew God swear by himself

As noted before, God had company in Heaven, namely Jesus Christ (besides Angels and perhaps other Heavenly creatures).
God wasn't praying in Genesis, but He was speaking to Jesus when He said, "Let Us make man in Our image..." (Gen 1:26)

I don't think God swearing by Himself has anything to do with anything, because no one is above Him.
Should God swear by Jesus instead ? No.
Nor should any of us human beings swear at all.

Ok, BK, I have go off line.
Take care for now.

The highlighted is clearly explained @ Proverbs 8:22-30
Apart from JEHOVAH all other heavenly spirit beings are angels (God's messengers) so for Jesus to have confirmed that he was SENT makes him a messenger to the One who sent him. So he is surely an angel!
Since he controls all the angels in heaven as their Commader then he must be the Archangel Michael! Daniel 12:1-3
Anyone can argue this from today till tomorrow the one and only way to disprove it is by PRESENTING a visible earthly organization under the control of Jesus. After all he has become King in heaven and so far so good billions are calling upon his name on this planet but they're not united.
So before we can say this are the real followers of Jesus, it must be a global family of peace loving worshipers unitedly doing what Jesus laid down as a legacy. Matthew 28:19-20
There is no other group doing this apart from JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES!

awitness41:

As noted before, God had company in Heaven, namely Jesus Christ (besides Angels and perhaps other Heavenly creatures).
God wasn't praying in Genesis, but He was speaking to Jesus when He said, "Let Us make man in Our image..." (Gen 1:26)
I don't think God swearing by Himself has anything to do with anything, because no one is above Him.
Should God swear by Jesus instead ? No.
Nor should any of us human beings swear at all.
Ok, BK, I have go off line.
Take care for now.

awitness41:


As noted before, God had company in Heaven, namely Jesus Christ (besides Angels and perhaps other Heavenly creatures).
God wasn't praying in Genesis, but He was speaking to Jesus when He said, "Let Us make man in Our image..." (Gen 1:26)

I don't think God swearing by Himself has anything to do with anything, because no one is above Him.
Should God swear by Jesus instead ? No.
Nor should any of us human beings swear at all.

Ok, BK, I have go off line.
Take care for now.

If you think praying is all about shouting and only asking for a favor then you have missed the beautiful point

Prayer is also taking to some one it discussions too it is the same thing God did with his other manifestation

He talked with them about the most important creation he was making another type of god just like himself in another dimension or in another realm

God talking to himself is equally prayer you are free to refuse this principles you can look to your self and notice the number of times you spoke to your self

Example you went somewhere it did not go successful you speak to yourself hey my spirit told me not to go there that is your spirit to your other dimension or when you say my mind told me this is not the answer to that exam question it your soul talking

We speak to ourselves each day and when God does it people find it strange

God is a family on his own before he even created anything

He has always been God the father God the son God the holy spirit

sagenaija:
Archangel Michael Is Not Jesus Christ
I intend to show in this thread that the Jehovah Witnesses (JW) claim that Archangel Michael is Jesus is not supported by Scripture. In doing so I will look at some of the passages they use in their claim and bring out their errors in the interpretation of those passages. I will also present scriptural passages which show the SUPERIORITY of Jesus Christ over ALL angels, no matter their ranking.

For those who want to give honest comments I ask that discussions stay within the topic of the thread and not veer off to other unrelated issues.

Daniel 10:13 & 21, Daniel 12:1 and Jude 9
JW adherents like to point to the above two as justification for their claim.

In the first place, none of those portions make explicit reference to Jesus. He has to be read into the texts which is what JW do.

In addition, Michael is not called the chief prince. He is referred to as ONE OF the chief princes. In other words, Michael is ONE of a group of chief princes. If Jesus is Archangel Michael and "one of the chief princes", does that not mean that there are other angels with the same ranking as Jesus? That would be the rational conclusion since he is just ONE OF the chief princes. This would then puncture HOLES in the JW claim that Michael ranks above all other angels.

Ofcourse nothing in Jude links Archangel Michael's mention there with Jesus. And Jesus is CLEARLY the starting point of the book, the emphasis of the book and the closing. Did Jude lack the understanding of the JW and failed to point him out directly as the Archangel Michael he referenced in his writing? I don't think so. Jude knew that they were two different individuals.

A Case of Mistaken Identity
Because the JW start from using their belief system to interpret Scripture rather than let the scriptures guide their understanding they end muddling things up and have to go into a lot of weird semantic gymnastics of statements of scriptures to attempt to prove their point.

The Archangel Michael is simply what the Bible says that he is - an angel of the highest rank.

On the other hand, Jesus is clearly shown as being superior to any angel, no matter the rank.

Jesus's Superiority Over Angels
Hebrews 1 starts off with the statement that Jesus is "MUCH SUPERIOR to angels"
"So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs."
Hebrews 1:4 NIV
We see here that Jesus is superior, in quality and position, to the angels.

CLEARLY the book of Hebrews emphasizes the superiority of Jesus over ALL angels. When we are told in Hebrews 1:5 "For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”?
that rhetoric question makes us come to only one conclusion: God never said that to ANY angel.

Archangel Michael is what he is said to be - an angel, whilst Jesus' position is said to be superior to that of any angel.

Jesus's Demonstration of Authority Over Satan versus Michael's
Jesus in his humanity - Jesus as a man - showed authority over Satan which Michael as an archangel could not do when contending with Satan over the body of Moses in Jude 9.

Jesus Accepted Worship
Jesus received worship from both men and angels. No man or angel is to be worshipped. No true angel (as opposed to demons) accepts worship - Rev. 19:10; Rev. 22:8&9.

To be continued........

Here's my take I will like to share;

The bible says Jesus is first among all sons.
Jesus is man.
Jesus is angel.
Jesus is god.

Jesus is Man:
While we were not told Jesus is Adam. We know he was addressed as the second Adam. He was conceived after the Holyspirit overshadowed Mary. He was born as a baby, grew as a boy, his adult like was documented when his ministry began after his baptism up until his crucifixion.
He experienced every emotion of man. And which is why he is able to intercede appeal to God on our behalf since he was in touch with our feeling, weaknesses, indecision, etc.

Jesus is Angel: (Theophany)
While angel simply means messenger of God just like Prophet, we also need to distinguish between angel and prophet.
Angels are usually not men. God can use men as angels. Angel's can also appear as men to fulfill whatever God needs to be done.
We have seen in the old testament where God appeared to Abraham, Jacob, Noah, Lot, etc in the form of angels.
We even saw where God appeared to Moses as a burning bush. And also as a Rock and Rod of Moses which healed the Israelites.
God also appeared to Joshua as Leader of army on his way to battle.
So Jesus was an Angel of God.
If Michael is the first of the Angels. Then Jesus is very likely the same person as Angel Michael.
However the contradiction is that Jesus is a prince of peace while Michael is an angel of battles.

Jesus is god.
This is the most controversial.
While some believe Jesus is The God, I opine that Jesus is a god.
Jesus himself taught that he was simply the Son of God. He taught that he could do nothing without his Father, God.
He cautioned Peter when he tried to worship him.
Even as an Angel he caused John to only worship God in revelations.
Stephen at the point of his death saw Jesus and God as separate entities. Jesus standing at the right hand of God.
Jesus is god just as God made Moses a god to Pharaoh.
God had elevated Jesus above human standard and made him a god.
But still there's a difference between Jesus being a god and the God father.
Which is why it still boils down to idolatry to worship Jesus instead of God.

Devil love when his children say Jesus is an angel.

That is the only way he can get back at Jesus for removing the original sin from human race that he caused on human

But at the end of the world every one will bow and kneel before Jesus and confess that he is God Almighty

Even devil too will confess Jesus is God Almighty

Myer:

If Michael is the first of the Angels. Then Jesus is very likely the same person as Angel Michael.
However the contradiction is that Jesus is a prince of peace while Michael is an angel of battles.

Jesus is called the Prince of Peace because his mission on planet earth is to make LOVE, JOY and PEACE {Galatians 5:22} reign in the midst of humble, obedient and faithful people throughout the earth. Micah 4:1-3

Only Jehovah's Witnesses knew that he is the same Archangel Michael the warrior who stands for the salvation of God's people {Daniel 12:1-3} presently Jesus (Michael) is working with his angels in gathering all faithful people throughout the earth under one umbrella {Matthew 13:30} after which he will lead his angels down to the earth, first he will seaze Satan and cast him into the abyss {Revelations 20:1-3} then he will exterminate all the faithless people who has been opposing his true followers {Luke 19:27} just as he destroyed all the armies of Egypt who were pursuing God's people in the red sea!

Jesus's Superiority Over All
The book of Hebrews begins by telling us that God who employed others as his messengers in time past has now chosen to do his work through his Son whom he has made heir of ALL things.

In Hebrews 1:3 we are told that apart from the Son being the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being that he sustains all things by his powerful word.
It should be obvious to even a casual student of the Bible that NO CREATED BEING can sustain ALL THINGS by his powers. The sheer vastness of the universe with its complexities requires nothing short of omniscience and omnipotence to sustain.

We have already seen in the earlier post that Jesus is superior, in quality and position, to the angels Heb. 1:4.

In spite of the clarity of Hebrews 1:8
'But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom."' many Jehovah Witnesses and those who believe along the same lines with them still attempt to use their weird semantic gymnastics of statements of scriptures to want to look at reinterpreting that portion of Scripture. What they seem not to look at is that God in making a statement there continues it into verse 10.

The JW translation of verse 8 is so convoluted and they appear to lose sight of some of its implications. JW say there: "God is your throne". Is that really what the writer of the book of Hebrews conveying there? What is a throne? What does God as throne mean?

Verse 10 goes on to say:
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands."
Notice that the FOUNDATIONS of the earth and the heavens are the work of the hands of the Son. And he is also said to be unchanging.

If we are to go by JW claim that Jesus is Archangel Michael then does it mean that ultimately he will join in ALL ANGELS serving those who will inherit salvation as stated in verse 14? Or will they at this point want to conveniently leave him out? Will they now want to separate angels from Archangels and tell us that this applies only to lower class angels?

Obviously what we again see in all that we have examined here is that Jesus is not in any category of angels whether ordinary or Archangel.

freshboi88:


I like how u shoot yourself in the foot.

Yes Seun is equal to Fela in terms of their humanity, essence and value before God. That is why Seun can do whatever he sees Fela doing.

A cat or goat cannot claim to do whatever it sees it's owner doing because they are not of the same nature and essence as it's human owner.

So using your logic you only prove me right.

So why can Jesus do everything that God can do? Answer this question carefully this time and don't rush to answers that actually put u in more trouble

@Janosky come and see how ur own lies have turned on u.....

Your faulty goat & cat logic proven you lack SENSE

Ephesians 5:1,1 Corinthians11:1and John 5:19 proven that you and your crew members rants no get SENSE
According to your faulty logic Paul is equal to Jesus Christ because he copies whatever Jesus does.
Everyone who imitates God is equal to God.
Ephesians 5:1
Imitate God, therefore, in everything you do, because you are his dear children"


Ephesians 5:1, 1Corinthians11:1 & John 5:19 pari pasu

sagenaija:
Jesus's Superiority Over All
The book of Hebrews begins by telling us that God who employed others as his messengers in time past has now chosen to do his work through his Son whom he has made heir of ALL things.

In Hebrews 1:3 we are told that apart from the Son being the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being that he sustains all things by his powerful word.
It should be obvious to even a casual student of the Bible that NO CREATED BEING can sustain ALL THINGS by his powers. The sheer vastness of the universe with its complexities requires nothing short of omniscience and omnipotence to sustain.

We have already seen in the earlier post that Jesus is superior, in quality and position, to the angels Heb. 1:4.
#1
In spite of the clarity of Hebrews 1:8
'But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom."' many Jehovah Witnesses and those who believe along the same lines with them still attempt to use their weird semantic gymnastics of statements of scriptures to want to look at reinterpreting that portion of Scripture. What they seem not to look at is that God in making a statement there continues it into verse 10.

The JW translation of verse 8 is so convoluted and they appear to lose sight of some of its implications. JW say there: "God is your throne". Is that really what the writer of the book of Hebrews conveying there? What is a throne? What does God as throne mean?

Verse 10 goes on to say:
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands."
Notice that the FOUNDATIONS of the earth and the heavens are the work of the hands of the Son. And he is also said to be unchanging.

#2
If we are to go by JW claim that Jesus is Archangel Michael then does it mean that ultimately he will join in ALL ANGELS serving those who will inherit salvation as stated in verse 14? Or will they at this point want to conveniently leave him out? Will they now want to separate angels from Archangels and tell us that this applies only to lower class angels?

Obviously what we again see in all that we have examined here is that Jesus is not in any category of angels whether ordinary or Archangel.

#1
Psalms 45:6-7 Hebrew Masoretic Text DISPROVEN your faulty Trinitarian rendition of Hebrews 1:8.
Your Trinitarian Hebrews 1:8 is GIBBERISH
"God is your throne" meaning your throne is from God".
Similarly God is your Strength meaning your strength is from God.
NWT, Message Bible, Byington Bible, Catholic Jerusalem Bible, Moffat Bible, Goodspeed Bible are correct @ Psalms 45:6.
It is FRAUDULENT to misquote any source.
Your Trinitarian Hebrews 1:8 is a misquote of Hebrew Masoretic Psalms.
Isaiah 28:5 "God is the Crown", are you going to change it to suit your Trinitarian taste?

Hebrews 1:2,10, Proverbs 8:22-29, 1 Cor 1:24 acknowledge Jesus role as a "Craftsman" working "at the side of his Father" @ the Creation of the universe..

#2
No, not at all.
Hebrews 1:5,9 , Jesus Christ was exalted above angels by his God and Father.
Jesus Christ is king of his Father's kingdom.
Luke 1:31-33, Revelation 3:21 is precise.

sagenaija:

MaxinDHouse, DappaD,
Go through this thread again carefully and honestly tell us who is doing what you are accusing others of.

My responses have been reactions to what you guys bring up. My focus remains the same. Take my last post for example, I've still pointed out how Michael can't be Jesus; the latter is referred to as the 'first born' while the former is NOWHERE in Scripture referred to as that. Is that a deviation from my thread topic? I know that you will not answer.

All angels are God's sons by creation.
Inclusive of Jesus the Archangel Michael.
ALL of them have a Father.
Bros, your food for thought:
Why is JEHOVAH God without his Father?

sagenaija:


The other issues have to do with you guys insistence on 'practical works'. Also to show the weakness you live in and wrong approach to scriptural interpretation. So, where have I deviated. I have brought up nothing CONTRADICTORY.

I said it earlier, shouldn't 'weak shots' be easier to debunk? You have made no attempts at disproving my 'weak shots' but you are asking for 'best shot'. You guys must think very highly of yourselves: what does the Bible call that?

I give my points and what I see you guys do is engage in DEFLECTION.

A sign that a person is UNABLE to present a better argument is when he runs away from addressing the points the other side has given, whether 'weak' or 'strong'. If you can't show why a point is weak or how the supposedly strong points have loopholes you are just showing yourself as being incapable or unprepared.

Or maybe you just following your leaders instructions not to look into any other materials apart from Watchtower's.

I believe that, even when you don't admit it, you guys know when you have no answer or when you have been boxed into a corner. I believe MaxinDHouse knew this in the other thread we were engaged in.

When you claim "TO BE THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE CHRISTIAN GROUP", (MaxinDHouse's exact words), you make all others false. The onus is then on you to prove how you are what you claim.

A person's actions are most times based on his belief system. For example, a person who believes that if he kills others who don't believe in his god is doing what his god wants would likely act it out. But if he is confronted to show how his belief system is right and he can't clearly show it he may begin to rethink the necessity of his actions.

In the same way, you guys base your attitudes and actions on some beliefs. Unfortunately you have not been able to show how those beliefs stand true test.

MaxinDHouse is FIXATED on "which group is PRACTICING what Jesus taught?". He seem to forget that Jesus Christ addressed seven (7) churches in the book of Revelation. Were those churches his own? Were they one (1) group? Did they have different issues confronting them?
So, what was the singular UNIFYING thread or bond between them?

The focus is not man or group otherwise glory will be given to the man or group. The focus is on him who said "I will build my church".

The ultimate issue is 'What think ye of Christ?'. Who is he to the individual or to a group? A mere out-of-this-world super angel OR the creator, saviour and sustainer of all?

That belief on Christ is the foundational basis for everything else that follows. Once it is missing or misconstrued everything else, every purported practical works, will crumble before him when he comes to judge ALL.

For your mind ?

All the Churches @ Revelation and Jesus himself belongs to his God and Father.
That is why you have 1 Corinthians 3:23 ,
Acts 15:14, John 17:6-7, Revelation 1:1 and John 9:4 in your Bible.
JEHOVAH works with his group chosen to bear the name Jesus revealed to us, John 17:6-7,26.

Bishopkingsley:
But

Why do people find it strange God praying or speaking to himself in genesis did God not speak to himself when he said let us make man.... In Hebrew God swear by himself

Afterall you claim that Genesis 1:26, your deities are three.
Why did God not swear by the other 2 persons you deceptively worship?

Why would 3 persons swear by himself?
Is it now crystal clear to you that you and your Trinitarian devotees are polytheists DECEIVING yourselves?

sagenaija:

Janosky,

1. Here is Genesis 10:25
Two sons were born to Eber: One was named Peleg, because in his time the earth was divided; his brother was named Joktan.
Genesis 10:25 NIV

Here is Genesis 4:19
Lamech married two women, one named Adah and the other Zillah.
Genesis 4:19 NIV

Here is Daniel 10:13
But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.
Daniel 10:13 NIV

Please show us in simple terms (1) how these verses are related and (2) how "one of" and "the one" translates to the first, the Head, the Senior.

Please break it down since many of us here may not have your IQ.


You post so many times that one is beginning to think that you just want to confuse issues rather than face them squarely. You seem to be engaging in some kind of sophistry. Or are you simply a peevish person.

I have the liberty to make posts as time permits.
I don't confuse issues, neither do I engage in sophistry.
Therefore, your claim is NOT true.
Not peevish.
@ Genesis 10:25, who Is the senior/first among the two brothers, Peleg & Joktan?
Peleg came first.
What is the meaning Hebrew lexicon 259 translated "one"?
First
First refers to whom?
Peleg.

@ Genesis 4:19, Lamech had two wives Adah and Zillah.
What is the meaning Hebrew lexicon 259 translated "one"?
First
"First" refers to whom?
Adah.

Is the same Hebrew lexicon 259 @ Daniel 10:13?
Yes.
.
Is there rank among angels?
Yes.

@ Daniel 10:13, another Hebrew lexicon 7223 "Chief= first in place/time/rank"
Archangel Michael the Head/First leads other sons of God.

Matthew 16:13-7, John 20:17, Revelation 3:5,12 in heaven and earth,Is Jesus Christ son of God?
Yes!
What is the meaning of son of God?
Angel, Job 2:1, Job1:6.
Jesus is the son of God.
Is he the Head of other sons of God?
Matt 25:31, 2 Thess 1:7, 1 Thess 4:16?

Does he lead other sons of God in victory and glory?
Daniel 10:13, 2 Thess 1:7, Matthew 25:31, Revelation 12:7-9, 1 Thess 4:16 says yes.

Who is the seed of Genesis 3:15?
Jesus Christ.
Who is the serpent of Genesis 3:15?
Satan the devil, Revelation 12:9.
Who gains victory over Satan the devil, the serpent?
Jesus Christ, 1 John 3:8.

Funny enough, most Bible scholars , John Wesley, Adam Clarke, John Trapp, James Moffat (to name a few) your Trinitarian devotees share this belief.
Who taught them?

Janosky:

All angels are God's sons by creation.
Inclusive of Jesus the Archangel Michael.
ALL of them have a Father.
Bros, your food for thought:
Why is JEHOVAH God without his Father?

For your mind ?

All the Churches belong and Jesus himself belongs to his God and Father.
That is why you have 1 Corinthians 3:23 ,
Acts 15:14, John 17:6-7, Revelation 1:1 and John 9:4 in your Bible.
JEHOVAH works with his group chosen to bear the name Jesus revealed to us, John 17:6-7,26.

He thought when Jesus addressed seven Churches it was different religions altogether with contradicting teachings and conflicting doctrines like they're PRACTICING today, shey?

Once i discover someone is deceiving himself i focus on better things to do unless someone is around who wants to learn.

If he doesn't agree that JEHOVAH differs from Jesus then he should PRESENT a gathering of people PRACTICING a religion with TRINITY as their doctrine that's all!

sagenaija:

Janosky,



2. Where did Sagenaija make a claim that
Jesus is Archangel Michael doctrine is exclusive to JWs?
Show me or apologise.

3. When I quote Bible verses and you don't address them but instead bring up other verses you are simply being disingenuous. Did the verses I quoted prove my point?

4. Janosky, even for you guys who believe that Jesus was an angel before he became man let me ask you this:
When Jesus became man did he still exercise the powers he had before becoming man or did his mission require that he restrict himself to human limitations?

5. John 19:6-7, confirmed John 5:18. How did they confirm that they were lying?
The Jewish leaders insisted, “We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God.”
John 19:7 NIV

For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
John 5:18 NIV

Note janosky, that John 5:18 IS NOT a statement of the Jews. It is what the writer under INSPIRATION has given us. So, the issue is do you believe what the writer of the book of John said that it was because they understood him to be making himself equal with God that they wanted to kill him?
Secondly, is John 19:7 not clear enough?

.

2.
Did you intend to show this forum that your fellow Trinitarian devotees believe in the doctrine of Jesus is Archangel Michael on this thread?
Have ever said there are Trinitarians who believe that Jesus is Archangel Michael?
The same Scriptures JWs have proven to you, is that the same scriptures your Trinitarian devotees believe in?
When & where did you say the doctrine is NOT exclusive to JWs?

3.
Are you kidding me?
Let me see your evidences.

4.
Jesus Christ is a perfect man without limitations.
Trinitarians brought in the claim of limitations because they can't explain why their fully God man doesn't know nah nah about Matthew 24:36

5
John 5:16
Now because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews began to persecute Him.

John 10:33
"We are not stoning You for any good work," said the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because You, who are a man, declare Yourself to be God."

John 10:33 and John 5:16, John have proven that the Jews made the FALSE accusations at John 5:18.
John 5:18, John 5:16, John 10:33 is the same FALSE claim of the Jews.
John 10:36, Jesus Christ proven the accusations FALSE

sagenaija:

This is a knockout punch!
Jesus said he gives life just like the Father does.
I bet janosky will evade this.
John 5:21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.
It can't be more clearly stated.

Is John 5:26 missing from your Bible?
Who gave life to Jesus ?

John 20:17,Revelation 3:5,12, Ephesians 4:6, in the spiritual realm& earthly realm, why does his God have no Father ?
1 Corinthians 3:23, Why is his God not answerable to any God?

awitness41:


John 5:21 (NKJV): For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
John 5:26 (NKJV): For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself...

These Verses also mean that Jesus can create matter from nothing at all... something which no Angel can do.

Let me also ask all of you to please consider this:

At the very beginning - before the first atom, molecule, planet, or being - there was God alone.
For Jesus did not create God, just as a son cannot create his own parent, nor can a son come before their own parent.
#1
God, therefore, [b]MUST HAVE created Jesus... at the very beginning, before anything else (even an atom) was made.
[/b]
In addition, God taught Jesus everything, gave Him every ability, and also gave His Son all authority over everything that would be made.
#2
In essence, Jesus was [b]just like God, for even though the Father is greater than Jesus (John 14:28), God gave Jesus every God-like trait.[/b]
(Therefore, it is no affront to God when Thomas refers to Jesus as "my Lord and my God"... because to us puny human beings, Jesus can be considered as One with His Father, or as God is, #3
even though Jesus Himself is not God.)

To note: Jesus was not an Angel, just as God is not an Angel... for Angels were created by Both sometime afterward.

Now, on to Creation.
We know this is also true (John 1:3): nothing was made without Jesus also being present to make it.
That includes the first atom, the first molecule, the first planet, and the first beings... all of which God and Jesus created.
And to do that, #4
Jesus also had to be given the ability to create matter from nothing at all, just like God can.

Consider our own body temples... a mass of atoms and molecules that would otherwise have no Life unless God and Jesus also put our own Spirit within us.
Thus, God and Jesus also make the visible (the body) and the invisible (the Spirit of Life in flesh that allows the atoms and molecules to become a living being).
Can we do that ? No.
Can Angels do that ? No.

Can't we simply believe that Jesus is just like God His Father in all ways - Spirit, form, and authority ?
Why not ? It's the Truth.
That's because God, the Greater One, made it that way !
And as God is NOT an Angel, neither is Jesus... for Angels came well after the very beginning.
#5
And you can all find the Scriptures that support this... without saying explicity that God created Jesus.
But if we actually think about what is presented to us in Scripture, ALL Verses included, then we can, in Truth, draw no other conclusion.

#1,#5
Jesus was given power to create by his Creator his Father in the spiritual realm.
John 5:26,Romans 11:35-36, Colossians 1:15.
Which first born has no Father?

#2
Jesus is godlike, a god is godlike, divine.
That is the true meaning of John 1:1
Resembling God. Check your Dictionary.

#3
John 20:17 and Revelation 3:12

#4
John 5:26, power given by his Creator.

You are not a Trinitarian or you have your own version of the Trinity.
Matthew 11:10 Jesus is an angel just as John the Baptizer is.
Envoys , Messengers of God.

Janosky:

Is John 5:26 missing from your Bible?
Who gave life to Jesus ?

John 20:17,Revelation 3:5,12, Ephesians 4:6, in the spiritual realm& earthly realm, why does his God have no Father ?
1 Corinthians 3:23, Why is his God not answerable to any God?

Always incoherent in his statement.

Jesus was given life by His Father in his humanity after setting aside His God's nature Phil 2:6, Jesus is the very LIFE and not even just life BUT ETERNAL LIFE 1 John 1:3

CEV: The one who gives life appeared! We saw it happen, and we are witnesses to what we have seen. Now we are telling you about this eternal life that was with the Father and appeared to us.

How can eternal be given life again Oponu Janosense.

This was the same question I thrown at a JWs elder and I didn't see him again.

Jesus himself said he is THE LIFE.

I don't expect you to understand that verse with your watchtower brain thou

Janosky:


#1,#5 Jesus was given power to create by his Creator his Father in the spiritual realm.
John 5:26,Romans 11:35-36, Colossians 1:15.
Which first born has no Father?

No how you people put it you'll always acknowledge the creative power of your creator Jesus Christ.

That will make Jesus to be the CREATOR of you, your father the Devil, your saviour Angel Michael and your idolaters in Brooklyn sorry New York

#2
Jesus is godlike, a god is godlike, divine.
That is the true meaning of John 1:1
Resembling God. Check your Dictionary.

But Jehovah said there's no god besides Him, which means your interpretation is wrong.

KJV: Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god. Isaiah 44:6

Jehovah said he is THE FIRST AND THE LAST, the is the same thing Jesus told John in his revelation and to crown it all, He said BESIDES me (Jehovah) there's no god.

#3
John 20:17 and Revelation 3:12

#4
John 5:26, power given by his Creator.

Which then make Him a creator and you having two creators.

You are not a Trinitarian or you have your own version of the Trinity.

Just as you have your own version of saviour the Micheal

Matthew 11:10 Jesus is an angel just as John the Baptizer is.
Envoys , Messengers of God.

We keep hearing this nonsense because no where scripture explicitly stated that Jesus is Angel.

Keep searching maybe you'll see it in your next light that will shine brighter

Janosky:


Afterall you claim that Genesis 1:26, your deities are three.
Why did God not swear by the other 2 persons you deceptively worship?

Why would 3 persons swear by himself?
Is it now crystal clear to you that you and your Trinitarian devotees are polytheists DECEIVING yourselves?

Question
Why did God not swear by the other 2 persons you deceptively worship?

Answer
God is one
You still don't understand trinity that the problem you have

Now examples
Who is writing this things I write it my soul not my body my body is just doing what my soul commands it to do

So if i swear by myself it my soul that swear so my soul swear by my self in other words my soul included both my body and my spirit in swearing by myself

Are you seeing how it works
God is not three different beings
He is one person inside that one we have
God the father which is just like your soul
We have God the son which is just like your body
We have God the holy spirit which is just like your spirit

Hope you now understand how you are one person yet have three dimensions

Janosky:

I have the liberty to make posts as time permits.
I don't confuse issues, neither do I engage in sophistry.
Therefore, your claim is NOT true.
Not peevish.[/b]
@ Genesis 10:25, who Is the senior/first among the two brothers, Peleg & Joktan?
Peleg came first.
What is the meaning Hebrew lexicon 259 translated "one"?
First
First refers to whom?
Peleg.

@ Genesis 4:19, Lamech had two wives Adah and Zillah.
What is the meaning Hebrew lexicon 259 translated "one"?
First
"First" refers to whom?
Adah.

Is the same Hebrew lexicon 259 @ Daniel 10:13?
Yes.
.
Is there rank among angels?
Yes.

@ Daniel 10:13, another Hebrew lexicon 7223 "Chief= first in place/time/rank"
Archangel Michael the Head/First [/b]

Janosky,
You started posting a response to one of my posts then jumped to another and then went back to the initial post. Is this a reflection of how you think? Why are you being jumpy?

1. Jesus is referred to as the 'first born'. NOWHERE is Archangel Michael referred to as that. If you have proof show us.

2. Did ANY of the churches in Revelation claim "TO BE THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE CHRISTIAN GROUP", (like MaxinDHouse said and you are defending here)?
That is my point. Not whether they all belong to Jesus. They were different churches at the same time but none claimed that it was the only true one. So, on what basis are you guys coming up with the claim above?

3. Your translation puts Daniel 10: 13b as follows: "... But then Michael, one of the foremost princes, ...".
Why did it not use your 'understanding' and state is as "the first of the foremost princes"?
Because it is simply not so. The context requires that the word be translated as 'one'. Btw, the Hebrew lexicon 259 can be one, first, unique, alone, etc.
Do you see that 'one' is there in Daniel 10:13 and 'chief' is also there? The 'chief' is already according to the Hebrew lexicon 7223 you quoted 'first, in place, time or rank, ancestor, before,...' etc.
If you claim 259 is first and we see that 7223 can also be first would you then translate that portion to read: 'first of the first princes'? Would it not then mean that there was a SET of first princes created of which Michael is the first, and NOT that he is the first created? Your translators chose not to use your reasoning.

4. You are trying to be clever by getting back to me with a question on my question. Where did Sagenaija make a claim that Jesus is Archangel Michael doctrine is exclusive to JWs?
Show me or apologise.
The onus is on you who made the accusation.
Where did I also claim to have some fellows here?

5. I'm, again, not asking if Jesus was a perfect man. My question was simple: When Jesus became man did he still exercise the powers he had before becoming man or did his mission require that he restrict himself to human limitations?

6. John in writing the gospel was inspired to write:
"For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God."
John 5:18 NIV

John is the one speaking here not the Jews.
Are you saying that this claim by John is false?
John 10:33, John 5:16 etc only buttress this same point: They knew that he was claiming EQUALITY with God. Is the English so difficult to understand?

7. John 5:26 is still saying that Jesus can do what the Father can do. He is equally capable. So?

Colossians 2:9 makes it clear that ALL THE FULNESS of the Godhead was in him. Not part. Not a subordinate nature. ALL means ALL, Janosky!

MaxInDHouse:


He thought when Jesus addressed seven Churches it was different religions altogether with contradicting teachings and conflicting doctrines like they're PRACTICING today, shey?

Once i discover someone is deceiving himself i focus on better things to do unless someone is around who wants to learn.

If he doesn't agree that JEHOVAH differs from Jesus then he should PRESENT a gathering of people PRACTICING a religion with TRINITY as their doctrine that's all!

MaxinDHouse,
Do you remember this?:
There is no letter 'J' in the Hebrew. When you guys therefore become so HUNG UP with being Jehovah's Witnesses one wonders why. Perhaps you should go more with Yahweh's Witnesses. NOT ONE TIME is Jehovah used IN THE GREEK of the New Testament. So, I wonder if your pal janosky will turn to his lexicon and help us out there. But of course you guys will still prefer your DOGMA-influenced New World Translation and will care less about the Greek. When you are boxed into a corner you then run to 'works of faith' or attack your opponent.

Janosky:


Your faulty goat & cat logic proven you lack SENSE

Ephesians 5:1,1 Corinthians11:1and John 5:19 proven that you and your crew members rants no get SENSE
According to your faulty logic Paul is equal to Jesus Christ because he copies whatever Jesus does.
Everyone who imitates God is equal to God.
Ephesians 5:1
Imitate God, therefore, in everything you do, because you are his dear children"


Ephesians 5:1, 1Corinthians11:1 & John 5:19 pari pasu

So after about 3 days consulting with your GB, this is your response to my questions.....very laughable.

In one sentence I'll show u that you and your GB don't have sense.

Firstly I imitating someone doesn't mean I can do everything that person does. To further buttress my point

If I imitate my friends walking step does it now translate to me been able to doing everything my friend does

So your arguement with these verses doesn't correlate. Put in proper context and not what you are forcing it to mean.

Imitating Jesus is who is God refers to copying certain attributes and characters which he has shown us.... where did I get this from ? the same scripture ! I am not inferring or manipulating scripture like u r doing which shows how demonic you are, proving u r a lying filthy pathetic scum like your father the devil who u work for.

So here are the scriptures to back my point. I'll quote a few.

1 Peter 2:21
For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,

Philippians 2:3-8
Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus


Leviticus 11:44
For I am the Lord your God. Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am holy. And you shall not make yourselves unclean with any of the swarming things that swarm on the earth.

I'll end with Leviticus 11:44..so because Jehovah says be holy for I am holy, asking them to imitate his holiness equates to saying that they can do all he can do ?

Shey u see ur illogical, dumb question and arguement falls face down in light of truth. If this is all u got then I am worried for your soul.

Please show me where a created being is been adjudged to be able to do all that Jehovah God is capable of doing from scripture ?

You just keep running from pillar to post over this simple issue!
Perhaps i should remind you from where you started.
Archangel Michael is Jesus Christ!
Whether you agree or not has nothing to do with us. We have done our own research and discovered that Jesus is Archangel Michael.
So go and worship with those who agree with you, we are cool with our own understanding on that.
Jumping from one topic to another is like child's play before real intellectuals.
If you feel J is not found in the Hebrew language hen call your own God the best way you know nah!

No wahala!

sagenaija:
[size=6pt][/size]
MaxinDHouse,
Do you remember this?:
There is no letter 'J' in the Hebrew. When you guys therefore become so HUNG UP with being Jehovah's Witnesses one wonders why. Perhaps you should go more with Yahweh's Witnesses. NOT ONE TIME is Jehovah used IN THE GREEK of the New Testament. So, I wonder if your pal janosky will turn to his lexicon and help us out there. But of course you guys will still prefer your DOGMA-influenced New World Translation and will care less about the Greek. When you are boxed into a corner you then run to 'works of faith' or attack your opponent.

Janosky:


Afterall you claim that Genesis 1:26, your deities are three.
Why did God not swear by the other 2 persons you deceptively worship?

Why would 3 persons swear by himself?
Is it now crystal clear to you that you and your Trinitarian devotees are polytheists DECEIVING yourselves?

They all have one goal in mind!
Contradict whatever JWs say!
Don't be surprised that this faithless people will still come and tell you "there is no God" to spite the JWs!
That's why i often summarize their arguments in one phrase "PRESENT a better performing group than JWs"
There's no reason to continue quoting the scriptures when it's of no practical benefits to the one i'm quoting it {Matthew 7:6} each one of them just feel like presenting the secret altar in his heart to which he bows every day and don't want anyone to speak agains, each one of them is correct as long as such a person is not raising any standard over their heads. If you present an ultimate standard they will start showing their faces to kick against it.
So i know the intention of their hearts that's why i keep telling them:

PRESENT a better performing group than JWs!

If you read Bible as you claim then you will know there is nothing like group or organization because

What Bible shows is we are in Christ we are the body of Christ Jesus you must point to Jesus Christ of Nazareth any body that refuses to point to Jesus Christ of Nazareth is of the devil, Jesus said it the holy spirit will speak of me he will tell you about me he won't speak of his own will so those who have the holy spirit will do the same thing he do we point to Jesus that is what the bible commands

Jesus is the head of us we are the sons and daughters of God every thing in the Bible is real both the physical aspect and the spiritual aspect

People who don't have the holy spirit power will deny the holy spirit and tell you it does not exist or it only for the Jews

The reason they say it is because they don't know the holy spirit power they don't know The holy spirit of God

If you know the holy spirit is alive and gives those he wills his presence and his fire then you will understand what we say is practical

As long as you refuse to believe the holy spirit is a person that is invincible then you won't receive his power

The holy spirit of God is the one who wrote the scriptures he is Jesus in spiritual form he is the spirit of Jesus

We are continually living the new testaments experience in our lives dally we don't ask you to believe in us or in our church or group what we ask you to believe is what is written in the Bible so that you can receive the same Holy Spirit we have received

That alone will indicate to you that we are truly of God

If I told you to kill a goat or come to my group before you can receive this thing then that is an indication that am a cult master because no where did the Bible indicate that method

So we walk by faith we walk according to the Bible we dare not go against the Bible because we know our God is a consuming fire besides he lives in us we live in him so he commands us on what to do and what to say

MaxInDHouse:
You just keep running from pillar to post over this simple issue!
Perhaps i should remind you from where you started.
Archangel Michael is Jesus Christ!
Whether you agree or not has nothing to do with us. We have done our own research and discovered that Jesus is Archangel Michael.
So go and worship with those who agree with you, we are cool with our own understanding on that.
Jumping from one topic to another is like child's play before real intellectuals.
If you feel J is not found in the Hebrew language hen call your own God the best way you know nah!

No wahala!

MaxinDHouse,
When you post:
"PRESENT a better performing group than JWs"
it is not running from pillar to post. How does that relate to the topic of the thread?

When others post theirs it is; isn't it?

The above has become your hiding place. Have you lost steam on how to defend your DOGMA-influenced New World Translation?

When you think it is convenient you, janosky and your pals post screenshots and lexicon to show us how words matter.

Now that you are boxed into a corner about the word you cannot explain, you then run for cover.