sagenaija:
Archangel Michael Is Not Jesus Christ
I intend to show in this thread that the Jehovah Witnesses (JW) claim that Archangel Michael is Jesus is not supported by Scripture. In doing so I will look at some of the passages they use in their claim and bring out their errors in the interpretation of those passages. I will also present scriptural passages which show the SUPERIORITY of Jesus Christ over ALL angels, no matter their ranking.

For those who want to give honest comments I ask that discussions stay within the topic of the thread and not veer off to other unrelated issues.

Daniel 10:13 & 21, Daniel 12:1 and Jude 9
JW adherents like to point to the above two as justification for their claim.

In the first place, none of those portions make explicit reference to Jesus. He has to be read into the texts which is what JW do.

In addition, Michael is not called the chief prince. He is referred to as ONE OF the chief princes. In other words, Michael is ONE of a group of chief princes. If Jesus is Archangel Michael and "one of the chief princes", does that not mean that there are other angels with the same ranking as Jesus? That would be the rational conclusion since he is just ONE OF the chief princes. This would then puncture HOLES in the JW claim that Michael ranks above all other angels.

Ofcourse nothing in Jude links Archangel Michael's mention there with Jesus. And Jesus is CLEARLY the starting point of the book, the emphasis of the book and the closing. Did Jude lack the understanding of the JW and failed to point him out directly as the Archangel Michael he referenced in his writing? I don't think so. Jude knew that they were two different individuals.

A Case of Mistaken Identity
Because the JW start from using their belief system to interpret Scripture rather than let the scriptures guide their understanding they end muddling things up and have to go into a lot of weird semantic gymnastics of statements of scriptures to attempt to prove their point.

The Archangel Michael is simply what the Bible says that he is - an angel of the highest rank.

On the other hand, Jesus is clearly shown as being superior to any angel, no matter the rank.

Jesus's Superiority Over Angels
Hebrews 1 starts off with the statement that Jesus is "MUCH SUPERIOR to angels"
"So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs."
Hebrews 1:4 NIV
We see here that Jesus is superior, in quality and position, to the angels.

CLEARLY the book of Hebrews emphasizes the superiority of Jesus over ALL angels. When we are told in Hebrews 1:5 "For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”?
that rhetoric question makes us come to only one conclusion: God never said that to ANY angel.

Archangel Michael is what he is said to be - an angel, whilst Jesus' position is said to be superior to that of any angel.

Jesus's Demonstration of Authority Over Satan versus Michael's
Jesus in his humanity - Jesus as a man - showed authority over Satan which Michael as an archangel could not do when contending with Satan over the body of Moses in Jude 9.

Jesus Accepted Worship
Jesus received worship from both men and angels. No man or angel is to be worshipped. No true angel (as opposed to demons) accepts worship - Rev. 19:10; Rev. 22:8&9.

To be continued........

sagenaija:
JW Apologists like MaxinDHouse, janosky and DappaD approach discussions by assuming what the other person thinks rather than focus on the points presented by the person. Interestingly even the Jews understood what the JW miss out:
"For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God."
John 5:18 NIV
They knew what the Son of God meant. They knew that when Jesus called God his Father he was claiming EQUALITY WITH GOD.
How many today miss this out is interesting. John's singular motive was to prove through his writing that Jesus is superior to anyone else, including angels. He started firing his salvo from John 1:1 by declaring ahead who Jesus is - divine.
Later on Jesus was going to say:
"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."
John 17:5 NIV
He had a GLORY with the Father. No creature can claim this glory.
I'll continue our discuss in the book of Hebrews in the next installment to continue to show the superiority of Jesus over ALL creation and systems.

DappaD:

Man’s even saw that his thread got no headway as nobody took him seriously so he has to mention Witnesses to give relevance to his thread.

sagenaija:

JW Apologists like MaxinDHouse,

sagenaija:

I would have expected that "weak points" would be the easiest to face and debunk. But we know when a person is unable to face and counter sound arguments; he looks for excuses and other ways out.
You guys seem to major in ridiculing and making jest of others. Is it part of your doctrine in your organisation?
We know when people have nothing to say and run for cover. We know.
A little story for you: The evangelist who preached at the programme the late Billy Graham accepted Christ was said to have had only ONE convert that day - the late Billy Graham. But what happened later? The same Billy Graham went on to bring in millions to God. If people like you were at the venue of the evangelist program I'm sure you would have declared him a failure.
But in the years to come his success spoke.
In a discussion DappaD, FOCUS ON THE FACTS, MAN! Focus on the facts! Ridicule only belittle you.

sagenaija:
[size=6pt][/size]
Understanding of the INSPIRATION of Scripture leads to better appreciation of portions of the Bible.

sagenaija:
[size=6pt][/size]
'Different' is being mild about it. When a position or teaching is clearly not in line with Scriptures then such a teaching is more than 'different'.
Like in this case, where the Scripture draws a clear distinction between Jesus and the angels and a group insist that there is no such clear distinction, that cannot be said to be just a mere 'different' position. That would be an aberrant view.

sagenaija:

I will be continuing my discuss so that those who will learn will learn.
I only brought in Billy Graham's issue to show that 'results' are relative.
On your point 1: Understanding of the INSPIRATION of Scripture leads to better appreciation of portions of the Bible. When Satan told Jesus "Since you are the Son of God change these stones into bread" should we believe him that he truly knew Jesus to be the Son of God? I'm using your logic here. Can we apply it in the same way you have used it in your point 1?
When the Bible gives us the reason why the Jews wanted to kill him and you now do not want to accept it, what can we say. John 5:18 IS NOT a statement of the Jews. It is what the writer has given us. The writer, under INSPIRATION is telling us the Jews understanding of Jesus's statements whi h made them want to kill him. You can either take it or leave it.
On your point 2: Deut. 26:19 does not say that God would GIVE HIS GLORY to the Israelites. Even if God were to give glory to anyone, giving glory to a person or people and having glory WITH a person are two different things.
John 17:5 on the other hand is clear; Jesus said "the glory WHICH I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD WAS". The fact that Jesus claimed to have glory with his Father which (like you stated God had said in Isaiah 42:8 he would share with no other) is a further pointer to the divinity of Jesus Christ. Not the opposite. Think about this!

DappaD:


1. Satan the Devil quoted from the Hebrew Scriptures to make a point, that’s the difference so he was actually purporting half-truths and misapplying scripture. Matthew 4:6
Thank God you said Satan tempted Jesus as Son of God, which means that if Jesus was God, then he could never have been tempted in the first place(James 1:13) but as we can see, he was!

2. Yes, Jehovah indeed glorified Jesus after his death and resurrection but is it not funny that even at that, Jesus is still being referred to as a Servant and not God? Acts 3:13(NKJV, ASV)

MaxInDHouse:

Funny trinitarians!
If they admitted that Satan tempted Jesus then what stopped them from grasping that Satan couldn't have come to temp the Almighty God because if he did then to whom will the Almighty prove to be loyal?

DappaD:

It’s already a confirmed fact that Trinity does a lot of damage to the minds of people.

DappaD:
Man I don’t even know you LOL so expecting me to bend to your will is already out of the question.

Your Billy Graham was able to mislead many who loved lawlessness and wanted to believe lies(Matthew 7:21-23, 24:24), committed sexual immorality with the politicians of this world which already made him part of Babylon the Great(false religion) Revelation 17:5

I said your points were weak because:

1. You picked only one of the accusations laid against Jesus to make a point. OK the Jews also claimed Jesus had a demon(John 10:20) and that he was a rebel against Caesar(Luke 23:2) after he said they should pay taxes to Caesar(Matthew 22:21) so why should we believe them when they claimed that he was claiming to be God after he said he was the Son of God? John 10:34-36
Think!

2. Jehovah God does not share his glory as Almighty with anybody, not even his Son(Isaiah 42:8.),

so misconstruing John 17:5 is already a big mistake on your part. Why? Because Jehovah said he would give glory and honour to the Israelites(Deuteronomy 26:19), does that mean the Israelites are now equal to Jehovah because of that?
Think!

DappaD:
1. Satan the Devil quoted from the Hebrew Scriptures to make a point, that’s the difference so he was actually purporting half-truths and misapplying scripture. Matthew 4:6

Thank God you said Satan tempted Jesus as Son of God, which means that if Jesus was God, then he could never have been tempted in the first place(James 1:13) but as we can see, he was!

2. Yes, Jehovah indeed glorified Jesus after his death and resurrection but is it not funny that even at that, Jesus is still being referred to as a Servant and not God? Acts 3:13(NKJV, ASV)

Emusan:

But you expect other people who didn't know you to bend to your own will.Just as your 8 men in Brooklyn (sorry New York) are misleading and became part of the same Babylon the Great (false religion)
Think, do you also think?
Did Jesus counter their accused by proofing He's not DEMON POSSESSED?
What was Jesus action when they SAID HE CLIAMED EQUALITY WITH GOD?
The problem here is that, you people never considered the instances how Jesus related to the Jews to reveal how He was the promised Messiah, God and Man.
Read your Bible not WATCHTOWER this time you'll see Jesus always countered the Jews points whenever they jam.
For instance, Jesus used Sabbath to prove that His is the LORD OVER SABBATH, something that NO HUMAN EVEN ANGEL can claim because YAHWEH is the very One who LORD OVER SABBATH.
But the Son has ALL AUTHORITY in heaven and on earth.
Do you understand what it means to have ALL AUTHORITY?
When you will even know that the word ALMIGHTY was derived from two words "ALL" & "Mighty"
Do you learn English to that level?
No! It's only misconstrued to you because Jesus message there is so cleared to see to the blind, as in "the glory I had with you BEFORE the WORD BEGIN"
This is a clear statement that the speaker here is talking about ETERNITY and Only God lives in eternity.
I'm still looking for where God says he will give HIS glory to the Israelites in that Deuteronomy 26:19. That is the reason we do say you people can pick any verse without even know what is all about.
CEV: The Lord created all nations, but he will make you more famous than any of them, and you will receive more praise and honor. You will belong only to the Lord your God, just as he promised.
GNT: He will make you greater than any other nation that he has created, and you will bring praise and honor to his name. You will be his own people, as he promised.”
Not even your translation we read that your god says he'll give HIS GLORY TO THE ISRAELITES, so where did that idea come from
NWT: "and that he will put you high above all the other nations that he has made,+ giving you praise and fame and glory as you prove yourself a people holy to Jehovah your God,+ just as he has promised.”

DappaD:
Emusan please let me be I’m currently facing the OP on this thread and no one else!

Emusan:

Where was the rules stated by the OP that you should only face him?
But you keep canvassing with your brother on the same thread without telling him that you're only to FACE THE OP
I guess your brother is INSIDE THE OP shey

DappaD:


Ehn nau. If you were my brother I would freely converse with you as there won’t be rules to barricade us but you’re not so face your front and allow OP to reply me. Please stop begging for my attention and channel your energy to something else.

MaxInDHouse:
My brother, TRINITY is gradually falling flat so all her children are now feeling insecured, that is why they're saying in an undertone:

Then they will start saying to the mountains, 'Fall over us!’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us over!’ If they do these things when the tree is moist, what will occur when it is withered?” Luke 23:30-31
Compare to:

And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rocks: “Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb,because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand" Revelations 6:16-17

They're now coming to realise that the one and only mountain standing tall is JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES Organization just as Jesus foretold! Matthew 5:14-16

So each of them is calling upon JWs to come and argue with them, not because they want to know the truth, but to test how far they can defend as in prevent TRINITY from falling yakata!

DappaD:
Ehn nau. If you were my brother I would freely converse with you as there won’t be rules to barricade us

but you’re not so face your front and allow OP to reply me.

Please stop begging for my attention and channel your energy to something else.

sagenaija:
[size=6pt][/size]
Result is relative. I'll leave it at that.

I have shown above that Archangel Michael is just ONE of the chief princes of the angels. He is not said there to be the chief prince. JW missed the point there.

I have also shown that there is no direct linking of Michael with Jesus either in the book of Daniel or Jude.

I have equally presented evidence that the book of Hebrews showcases the superiority of Jesus over angels - no matter their class or ranking.

In his humanity, Jesus demonstrated authority over Satan and demons. This is something Michael couldn't do with the dispute over the body of Moses.

Jesus accepted worship from both men and angels. No other true angel accepts worship .

These are not human deductions. These are what we see clearly in Scripture. Why are you guys not facing the Scripture? Why are you holding on to what you assume someone thinks or the position he holds?

sagenaija:

1. The ramifications of the temptation of Jesus is wide and not what I want to go into now in this thread.
My main point again is this:
John 5:18 IS NOT a statement of the Jews. It is what the writer, under INSPIRATION has given us. So, the issue is do you believe that it was because they understood him to be making himself equal with God that they wanted to kill him?
2. Jesus had a glory before his death and resurrection. Not just after his death and resurrection. That is what he talked about in John 17:5. Jesus said "the glory WHICH I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD WAS". In his humanity, because he voluntarily restricted the independent use of his deity in order to fulfill the plan of salvation it was fitting for him to be called Servant. Even in the book of Revelation he is referred to as the Lamb. But we know that he is in an exalted position and state.
Did John 17:5 say that Jesus had a glory before the world was?

sagenaija:
[size=6pt][/size]
It's obvious you are running away from the real issue of this thread. I know that it is because you know that you have no strong counter position to my presentation.

Nevertheless let me oblige you a little.

Mathew 7 DID NOT START FROM verse 16. So, it is necessary to look at in its context.
Starting from verse 15 that portion goes as follows:
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
Matthew 7:15‭-‬16

The ones by whose fruit we shall know them are the false prophets.

So, in the immediate context it is about false prophets or false teachers.
Going to verse 20 Jesus still said "by their fruit you will recognize them", meaning recognize the false teachers he asked them to watch out for in verse 15.

In v.22 Jesus shows that outward things such as prophecy, casting out demons and miracles were not the issue he was talking about.

What counts is “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matthew 7:24 NIV.
In other words, those who walk in line with all he has been saying starting from Mathew 5; because the entire portion is a whole even though divided into chapters and verses.

These include: “Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.
Matthew 6:1‭-‬2 NIV

So, by the 'fruit' of their not following what Jesus says the false prophets or teachers can be identified. The false teachers will "announce it with trumpets" what they are doing, refusing to follow Jesus's teaching not to do so as he instructed in Matthew 6:1-2.

In chapter 7 therefore, he is asking them to watch out for these false teachers. And he went on there to conclude by saying:
“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matthew 7:24 NIV
"These words" meaning, again in context, all that he had been presenting to them from chapter 5.

sagenaija:

How is my earlier claim on John 5:18 declared null and void?
If you don't understand a phrase or statement an opponent has made the right thing to do is ask for clarification.
Revelation was written after Jesus had RESURRECTED. Why was he still called a LAMB?