9Pluto:



No conjectures please. All proposition should have a literature referenced. Besides we understand the relationship between Ikot Abasi and Opobo.

How do we explain how Baike ended up with those Kalabari number systems as Bonny numbers when we know that Bonny use Ndoki Igbo number system today and that the number system provided by captain Crow earlier matches what is obtainable in Bonny today.

The data and info we have before us would somehow have to be interpreted.

1. At some point in Bonny, the number system and language switched from Igbo to Kalabari and then back to Igbo we have today. Crow met it when it was Igbo, Baike met it when it was Kalabari and we are now in an era where it is back to being Igbo?

2. There were non Igbo speaking parts of Bonny Kingdom and it was this part that Baike collected the Ijoid number system from?

3. Dismiss Baike report totally for being contradictory and ambiguous?

My point is that data and info not only has to be collected and presented, they also have to be rationally examined and interpreted.

Crazybeard:

Those documents are from the same book. Ijaws occupied the areas beyond the Forcados and from Cabo Fermosa to the Rio Real.

This debate is over as far as I'm concerned.AlexBells warned you'll about the Portuguese and Dutch accounts and that you shouldn't wash your dirty linen in public.Instead,you chose to castigate him.

I'm off to better things

Cheers!

Lol!
You are not okay.
I swear.
Reports noted Ijaw pirate activities in those waters, hence Ijaw presence there.
Reports never said Ijaws were the founders of Bonny, nor did it say that they were involved in the trading activities going on in Bonny.
Reports fingered you as troublesome pirates lurking these Waters, which you have continued to do today.

bomb24:



That is not baikies work. it was written by one fumbo around 1980's. they should provide his main excerpt from his work and the exact page.

I'm going to attach an image, so i want you too carefully look below the page you will see the year and the reference.

I wanted to wanted to ask you to provide references until I saw the attached pages myself.

That is not Baike's work as he was obviously quoted the the upper section of that page.

The person who wrote that book was referring to Baike while writing his own book.

If you are talking about the posted book.

That is not Baike's work as he was obviously quoted in the upper section of that page.

The person who wrote that book was referring to Baike while writing his own book.

9Pluto:


I wanted to wanted to ask you to provide references until I saw the attached pages myself.

That is not Baike's work as he was obviously quoted the the upper section of that page.

The person who wrote that book was referring to Baike while writing his own book.

It's Baike work.
I have checked it out myself.
Let me provide you with it.
I'm coming.

Yes the one he posted was an Ijaw distorted work which dubiously quoted Baike number system, but smartly avoided where Baike unequivocally stated that the people of Bonny told him that they originate from Igboland.

Just give me a minute let me provide you a link to the original Baike document.

Igboid:


How do we explain how Baike ended up with those Kalabari number systems as Bonny numbers when we know that Bonny use Ndoki Igbo number system today and that the number system provided by captain Crow earlier matches what is obtainable in Bonny today.

The data and info we have before us would somehow have to be interpreted.

1. At some point in Bonny, the number system and language switched from Igbo to Kalabari and then back to Igbo we have today. Crow met it when it was Igbo, Baike met it when it was Kalabari and we are now in an era where it is back to being Igbo?

2. There were non Igbo speaking parts of Bonny Kingdom and it was this part that Baike collected the Ijoid number system from?

3. Dismiss Baike report totally for being contradictory?

My point is that data and inform not only has to be collected and presented, they have to be rationally examined and interpreted.

If you are talking about the posted book.

That is not Baike's work as he was obviously quoted in the upper section of that page.

The person who wrote that book was referring to Baike while writing his own book.

Igboid:


It's Baike work.
I have checked it out myself.
Let me provide you with it.
I'm coming.

Yes the one he posted was an Ijaw distorted work which dubiously quoted Baike number system, but smartly avoided where Baike unequivocally stated that the people of Bonny told him that they originate from Igboland.

Just give me a minute let me provide you a link to the original Baike document.

Please, do so we all can take a look.
Thanks.

9Pluto:


Please, do so we all can take a look.
Thanks.

http://www.opensourceguinea.org/2014/05/peppel-ex-king-of-bonny-in-clarence.html?m=1

Check out page 422, I took a screenshot.

9Pluto:


I wanted to wanted to ask you to provide references until I saw the attached pages myself.

That is not Baike's work as he was obviously quoted the the upper section of that page.

The person who wrote that book was referring to Baike while writing his own book.

That was exactly the same thing I told Igboid.
we need to see the original work, wat page was it extracted from, but uptill now I have seen none from Ijaws who have been quoting me with some non-existence forca dos and their imaginary amina-naza-dokiari.

Igboid:


http://www.opensourceguinea.org/2014/05/peppel-ex-king-of-bonny-in-clarence.html?m=1

Check out page 422, I took a screenshot.

Thank you bro for this material as it seems valuable. Let us all look at it and revert here.

This is what I have been challenge our ijaw friends to come up with but they have not been forthcoming.

The Ijaw quickly quoted Baike number system but cunningly avoided this part of his work which will solidly dismiss Ijaw claims to Bonny.

Igboid:


How do we explain how Baike ended up with those Kalabari number systems as Bonny numbers when we know that Bonny use Ndoki Igbo number system today and that the number system provided by captain Crow earlier matches what is obtainable in Bonny today.

The data and info we have before us would somehow have to be interpreted.

1. At some point in Bonny, the number system and language switched from Igbo to Kalabari and then back to Igbo we have today. Crow met it when it was Igbo, Baike met it when it was Kalabari and we are now in an era where it is back to being Igbo?

2. There were non Igbo speaking parts of Bonny Kingdom and it was this part that Baike collected the Ijoid number system from?

3. Dismiss Baike report totally for being contradictory?

My point is that data and inform not only has to be collected and presented, they have to be rationally examined and interpreted.

Like I said.
These are the only three ways we can interpret Baike work. And none of them favors the Ijaws.
If we throw away Baike work for being contradictory, we are left with Crows work ( which gave a totally Igbo word list used in Bonny) and koelle( which stated that Igbo was the dominant language in Bonny).

Head or tail, we still win. As long as Bonny and Opobo continue speaking Igbo language as mother tongue, we will win this.

Ijaws know it too, which is why they have been kicking so hard to make the people drop Igbo language and chose the dead Kalabari language they christened Ibani language.

Ekealterego:


Edo man looking for trouble. Not that most Igbos care much about Ika some of their villages are still under Benin PTSD. Pre-independence. Survey and population census carried out around the 1920s and then republished in this book in 1950. Almost 100-year-old fact but this is a thread for another day.
Bkayy, Slayerforever, this is the document you were talking about.

1) I've got older documents showing Ika as being Edo, and I posted those documents, yet you want to flatter yourself because you found an almost 100 year old document which did not in anyway show the contrary to my already proven claim.

The only person with PTSD is you. You can't force people to claim Igbo ! We are Edo, deal with it !

By the way, post the documents of which you posted a snippet, snippets are easily falsifiable.

Ekealterego:

I know they said, your people were incapable of producing anything except for Ogogoro but please, make the thing rest. You are only conforming with Baikie that Okoloma people are from present day Okoloma. Thank you.

Here is another reconfirmation of Crowther's effort.... The same Crowther in my snippet you are reposting.

sorry Ekealterego, I read that stuff about the first missions to be established bla bla bla, but come o, how does it concern who owns Bonny? how does it relate to it entirely??
and your clowns liked it.
no correlation at all.

perhaps you wanted to upload it in another thread, I will believe that, thank you.

Please, who is Koelle? Can someone identify him and mention his book?

Truthvalue41:

1) I've got older documents showing Ika as bring Edo, and I posted those documents, yet you want to flatter yourself because you found an almost 100 year old document which did not in anyway show the contrary to my already proven claim.

The only person with PTSD is you. You can't force people to claim Igbo ! We are Edo, deal with it !

By the way, post the documents of which you posted a snippet, snippets are easily falsifiable.

Don't be stupid.
All Colonial anthropological work recorded Ika and the rest of Delta North as Western Igbo and not Eastern Edo.
Stop being dense.
How exactly do you want to claim a people you don't share local language with?

Is that not madness?

Truthvalue41:

1) I've got older documents showing Ika as bring Edo, and I posted those documents, yet you want to flatter yourself because you found an almost 100 year old document which did not in anyway show the contrary to my already proven claim.

The only person with PTSD is you. You can't force people to claim Igbo ! We are Edo, deal with it !

By the way, post the documents of which you posted a snippet, snippets are easily falsifiable.

I think most of you confused Ika people (not the sensible ones) have an attention problem.
The thread is not about Ika so I wonder what you wish to accomplish by throwing yourselves on our faces.
Like one renowned Igbo doctor said some months ago about Ika people sampling themselves and still insisting on how Bini they are, he said "We (Ndigbo) are not recruiting"

Stop all these attention seeking and work on yourselves. Solve the identity crisis within you and make a choice.
Any one you choose will be respected in Igboland.

1. If you choose to make yourselves Bini slaves, we will accept.
2. If you choose to be distinct ethnicity, that will be OK by us
3. If you now choose to return to the Igbo nation, then TERMS and CONDITIONS will apply

If you look around, there is no Igbo asking Ika to identify as Igbo. Even Ọhaneze Ndigbo that don't take the identity as serious as they should have openly told Gen. Lucky Irabor, the Nigerian Chief of Defense staff from that your Ika when Nigeria wanted to use him to blackmail Ndigbo that they appointed one of us, that he is not considered as Igbo by them and Us

9Pluto:
Please, who is Koelle? Can someone identify him and mention his book?

I don't have the full document from Koelle.
Just this snippet.

https://www.historians.org/teaching-and-learning/teaching-resources-for-historians/teaching-and-learning-in-the-digital-age/through-the-lens-of-history-biafra-nigeria-the-west-and-the-world/the-colonial-and-pre-colonial-eras-in-nigeria/an-outsiders-view-of-the-igbo-people-(1840)

Igboid:


No where in your attachment was it claimed that Bonny people are of Ijaw descent.
If there are, please mark it out.
The post you posted doesn't even contradict Baike.
It speaks only of language (which is still debatable since Bonny speak Ndoki Igbo today and earlier record noted they spoke Igbo in the past, even CMS Igbo union which Crowther was part of, used Bonny Igbo to write first Igbo Bible).
You are for all intents and purposes grasping at straws here.

brother man, is it that you lack understanding?
you saw the counting system, you saw the wordings, you saw crowther and pepple report and you're now looking for where it must be written that Bonny language is an ijoh dialect after you saw the words, connection to calabari language etc.
you daft aswear.
ok if you want us to be stupid, let me join you to be stupid, but only for a minute.
where is it written that enugu, Aro, ngwa language is Igbo?
just in case you get an excerpt, I want you to show me where it is writen or how it correlates that Aguleri speaks the Igbo language.
prove to me.

BKayy:

I think most of you confused Ika people (not the sensible ones) have an attention problem.
The thread is not about Ika so I wonder what you wish to accomplish by throwing yourselves on our faces.
Like one renowned Igbo doctor said some months ago about Ika people sampling themselves and still insisting on how Bini they are, he said "We (Ndigbo) are not recruiting"

Stop all these attention seeking and work on yourselves. Solve the identity crisis within you and make a choice.
Any one you choose will be respected in Igboland.

1. If you choose to make yourselves Bini slaves, we will accept.
2. If you choose to be distinct ethnicity, that will be OK by us
3. If you now choose to return to the Igbo nation, then TERMS and CONDITIONS will apply

If you look around, there is no Igbo asking Ika to identify as Igbo. Even Ọhaneze Ndigbo that don't take the identity as serious as they should have openly told Godwin Irabor from that your Ika when Nigeria wanted to use him to blackmail Ndigbo that they appointed one of us, that he is not considered as Igbo by them and Us

Ike gwuru.
Attention seeking set of people

Don't be surprised to find out that the guy is from Ozanogogo, the Edoid speaking part of Agbor.
Nah Dem dey usually carry the thing for head like gala.
Either way, Ndiigbo are not recruiting.
The location of Ika is not that crucial for Igbo nation.
We would be happy to have all Igbo speaking people which includes Ika in an independent Igbo country.
But if IKa people don't feel same way, then we wish them well.
We are not recruiting.

Please, I beg you guys to stop responding to that guy.

Someone that posted that map he posted in a debate about Benin and Anioma cannot be a normal human being. Unless he is high on some cheap crystal meth. Just go look at the map he posted and you will see why you should not answer him.

I guess he just finished impacting ignorance in students in school and he is back to find a soothing relief from his frustrations. Please, don't indulge him.

cc
Slayerforever
Ofoigbo
Eastlink
Ekealterego
Igboid
Bkayy

Igboid:


I don't have the full document from Koelle.
Just this snippet.

https://www.historians.org/teaching-and-learning/teaching-resources-for-historians/teaching-and-learning-in-the-digital-age/through-the-lens-of-history-biafra-nigeria-the-west-and-the-world/the-colonial-and-pre-colonial-eras-in-nigeria/an-outsiders-view-of-the-igbo-people-(1840)

Men, you deserve an honorary degree in history.

Thank you.

Anonymous15:

brother man, is it that you lack understanding?
you saw the counting system, you saw the wordings, you saw crowther and pepple report and you're now looking for where it must be written that Bonny language is an ijoh dialect after you saw the words, connection to calabari language etc.
you daft aswear.
ok if you want us to be stupid, let me join you to be stupid, but only for a minute.
where is it written that enugu, Aro, ngwa language is Igbo?
just in case you get an excerpt, I want you to show me where it is writen or how it correlates that Aguleri speaks the Igbo language.
prove to me.

See the facts before you and me today:

1. Bonny currently speak Ndoki Igbo as their mother tongue. Not second language, but mother tongue.

2. The same Baike you are relying on his number system unequivocally stated that Bonny people claim Igbo decent!
So if you are accepting those things Baike put down as Bonny number system, even Though we know that they don't correspond with the Ndoki Igbo and number system Bonny use today, then you have to also accept that Bonny are descended from Igbo land, the number system they used at the time of Baike is irrelevant.
Most relevant is that they descended from Igboland and as we are typing here, they use Ndoki Igbo dialect as mother tongue.

You don't get to pick and choose part of Baike report to accept. It's all or nothing.

3. The same Ajayi crowther you are quoting never said that Bonny is Ijaw. He also worked with CMS to use Bonny Igbo dialect to produce the Union Igbo Bible, the first Bible written in Igbo.

Bottom line: You have no case. You are desperate and beating around the bush.
You lost the intellectual battle and now hoping to have the last word, which I'm not going to let you have too, I'm that wicked.

Choke on this, your Baike freely provided us with it.

Igboid:
The Ijaw quickly quoted Baike number system but cunningly avoided this part of his work which will solidly dismiss Ijaw claims to Bonny.

Mazi Igboid I'm trying critically to access baikies work when he made mention of grand-bonny town. does this means bonny was the capital of the kingdom and they were other little hamlets under the kingdom which the bonny Igbos precided over, hence they claimed to be Ebany.

If u look at the language table by baikie the Igbo language travelled as far as nembe and oru.

cc 9pluto
ekealterego

bomb24:


Mazi Igboid I'm trying critically to access baikies work when he made mention of grand-bonny town. does this means bonny was the capital of the kingdom and they were other little hamlets under the kingdom which the bonny Igbos precided over, hence they claimed to be Ebany.

If u look at the language table by baikie the Igbo language travelled as far as nembe and oru.

cc 9pluto
ekealterego

Yes!
This is something I have been trying to bring to light.
There were small Villages that have Kalabari speaking people who are part of Bonny kingdom.
These Kalabari speakers are the ones that labelled their language Ibani.
You find the same thing with OPOBO.
You have main Opobo that is Ndoki Igbo speaking and then you have small Kalabari villages who were subjects to Jaja and hence part of Opobo Kingdom.
Even Ikot Abasi people though Ibibiod speakers were part of Opobo.

We need to do a mini exploration voyage to Bonny and Opobo to clear out some of these issues.

Truthvalue41:

1) I've got older documents showing Ika as bring Edo, and I posted those documents, yet you want to flatter yourself because you found an almost 100 year old document which did not in anyway show the contrary to my already proven claim.

The only person with PTSD is you. You can't force people to claim Igbo ! We are Edo, deal with it !

By the way, post the documents of which you posted a snippet, snippets are easily falsifiable.

So, if I pull a picture of my parents white wedding and termed them British people would you accept my claim ? Because there is no place I picture that says they were Edo or Bini people. Or, has mode of dressing become a determining factor in origin of people ?

Igboid:


Yes!
This is something I have been trying to bring to light.
There were small Villages that have Kalabari speaking people who are part of Bonny kingdom.
These Kalabari speakers are the ones that labelled their language Ibani.
You find the same thing with OPOBO.
You have main Opobo that is Ndoki Igbo speaking and then you have small Kalabari villages who were subjects to Jaja and hence part of Opobo Kingdom.
Even Ikot Abasi people though Ibibiod speakers were part of Opobo.

We need to do a mini exploration voyage to Bonny and Opobo to clear out some of these issues.

This now come's to a conclution of some old records stating clearly that the kalabaris claim to be of Igbo descent...

which means at some point in time the kalabaris spoke Igbo but due to the heavy influx of some immigrants their language got heavily ijonized but they still maintained the name from where they migrated from (ebany)

asari dokubo attest to this: that the first kalabari ruler was Igbo of descent.

Igboid:


I don't have the full document from Koelle.
Just this snippet.

https://www.historians.org/teaching-and-learning/teaching-resources-for-historians/teaching-and-learning-in-the-digital-age/through-the-lens-of-history-biafra-nigeria-the-west-and-the-world/the-colonial-and-pre-colonial-eras-in-nigeria/an-outsiders-view-of-the-igbo-people-(1840)

I found out this link doesn't exactly lead to Koelle article on Bonny and Igbo.
I would recommend you search under Google: below.

I swear I copied the link, yet the link leads to a different article.

bomb24:


This now come's to a conclution of some old records stating clearly that the kalabaris claim to be of Igbo descent...

which means at some point in time the kalabaris spoke Igbo but due to the heavy influx of some immigrants their language got heavily ijonized but they still maintained the name from where they migrated from (ebany)

asari dokubo attest to this: that the first kalabari ruler was Igbo of descent.

I don't really know about Kalabari.
Kalabari Igbo links is different from those of Opobo and Bonny.
Asari Dokubo claim his ancestor who established the Amakiri stool in Buguma came from Abam in Abia state.

The Aboriginals Igbos in Opobo and Bonny are of Ndoki stock.
Those of Okirika and Kalabari are not Ndoki.

One has to accept that Kalabari have Igbo and Ibibiod influence, yet their language today is Ijoid.
So I guess the population of those Bayelsa/Delta Ijaws in those places outnumbered those of Igbos and Ibibiod there.
That's the only explanation why their language became Ijoid.
But just like Eleme, because of heavy presence of non Ijaw elements in Kalabari, the people consider themselves unique from Izons(Bayelsa and Delta Ijaws) and now see themselves as somewhat independent ethnicity.
See the ethnologue of Kalabari language. It's unmistakably an Ijoid language.
If Ijaws are claiming them, then you have to admit they have a strong case to do so.

SlayerForever:


Igbo occupied the Bini area in times past.

There are some strong pointers to what you said.
There's a place in Ego L.G.A of Ewhotubu in Benin, called Okhokugbo. During my time there, I curiously inquired the meaning of Okhokugbo, and I learnt that it means a farm for fowls. They told me that some people who lived there some years back majored in farming, chiefly of which was poultry.
Now look at the word 'Okhokugbo' and the Igbo words 'Ugbo Okuko' or 'Okuko Ugbo' and draw your inference.

michelz:

There are some strong pointers to what you said.
There's a place in Ego L.G.A of Ewhotubu in Benin, called Okhokugbo. During my time there, I curiously inquired the meaning of Okhokugbo, and I learnt that that it means a farm for fowls. They told me that some people who lived there in some years back majored farming, chiefly of which was poultry.
Now look at the word 'Okhokugbo' and the Igbo words 'Ugbo Okuko' or 'Okuko Ugbo' and draw your inference.

I might not know the place but your breakdown is spot on. However, how far long ago did this poultry farmers occupy the area?

Igboid:


I found out this link doesn't exactly lead to Koelle article on Bonny and Igbo.
I would recommend you search under Google: below.

I swear I copied the link, yet the link leads to a different article.

Mazi ramos biko eazy make bloods no stain your hands.lolzzzz