Templee333:
There's something that happen in the minds of people who lost their believe in God. Its like the story of a crafty tortoise attending a feast in the sky with his birds friends lending it one feather each to fly & how it came to have a rough shell...u must have believed this as a child! Later u came 2 realize as an adult that these stories aren't real but someone is now trying to let u believe them again.
No matter how hard an atheist try,i dont think he/she can believe in God again! Never!

Quite the contrary sir!

When an atheist get to his breaking point: he realizes that he's been a fool all along. He then surrenders to God as His Creator.

Some breaking points include NDEs, Spiritual Encounters, Logically/Scientific enlightenment. Each person is different as the threshold for each Atheist also differ. If you want, I can give you examples of Atheists who became believers in the Creator!

Pretending to be what you are not in order to please others is a kind of slavery.

Jennygold111:
I came to the age of reason.

you left reason

Jennygold111:
Atheist is not a belief. Is abstinence a sex position?

She has a point.
If you are confident in your belief that there is no god, then why hide?

It isn't just ok to simply attach a label to oneself. If you are truly an atheist at heart, confidence will flow from this belief of yours. It is the same with everything else.

TenQ:

I hope that you'll be intellectually reasonable in this discussion.

I always try to be

There are a few logical questions you may need to answer.
1. Do you think an Uncaused First Cause of Everything Exist?
If not, can you justify your position?

I don't know. I sincerely don't. This is not a copout to try to deny the possibility of a god. I once held the notion that there must be an uncaused first cause.. but then i realized something.

The concept of an uncaused first cause is not a scientific one that has been proven by any evidence. It's more of a mental or philosophical thing we slap on to the question “why is there something rather than nothing?" in order to avoid the infinite regress fallacy.

But in actuality... We have no idea. Infinite regress doesn't make sense to us. It is illogical. So the next logical explanation is a cause that wasn't caused, that led all things to be caused. But if we want to be honest with ourselves.. we need to admit that we don't just know at this point in time. If everything must need a cause, then why would an uncaused first cause truly be uncaused?

The question is uncomfortable either ways.. if the law of cause and effect holds true.. then we're faced with an uncomfortable infinite regress fallacy. Slapping on an uncaused first cause still violates the notion that everything that exists has a cause.

I don't know if you've heard of the Kalam cosmological argument. It tries to tackle this by saying “everything that begins to exist has a cause, rather than just everything has a cause.

But then, we're left asking ourselves.. what things exist, that did not begin to exist? Meaning.. what things are eternal in nature?

This is where my logic, quite frankly, breaks down.. if one thing can exist eternally (i.e not begin to exist), then why can't 2.. or 3.. or more. What law is there that could prevent it?

2. If the "Uncaused First Cause" of Everything" exist, would it be logically and scientifically correct to call such a FORCE, the SOURCE of everything?

If it exists... Then yes.. it would be regarded as the source of everything.

In answering the questions above, Forget the Real identity of the "Uncaused First Cause" of Everything": that's why I deliberately used the term FORCE rather than God (to remove theistic bias).

Thank you for removing the theistic bias. However.. apart from the fact that the uncaused first cause is still something we haven't figured out yet as humans.. the issue with theism.. is the very bias you put aside.

Like i said earlier.. the theist doesn't just claim the existence of this force. They claim to know it's nature.. it's will.. it's desires and it's intentions. It seems like a big logical leap, when we've not even finished determining with certainty, the existence of this aforementioned first cause.

TenQ:

Too easy a question!

1. Every Effect is preceded by a Cause

As we've observed

2. It is a scientific and logical impossibility to have an infinite regress of cause and effect.

I can agree with that

3. Since evidence of cause and events abound, it is therefore necessary that an "Uncaused First Cause" of Everything be.

This is the issue. This discussion then shifts to the existence of necessary or contingent things. We've observed all things to be contingent.. that is.. dependent on something for their existence.

But if everything is contingent, then we'll arrive at an infinite regress. The issue with saying something is necessary.. and therefore can simply just exist without a cause.. is that it's difficult to pinpoint exactly what things have to be necessary.

We've observed contingent things. We've not directly.. as far as i know, observed any necessary thing. This is why i said the concept of an uncaused first cause.. is more of a philosophical one... Rather than something we've observed

Which brings me back to the question.. if one thing can be necessary, why can't 2 or 3 or 10?

The "Uncaused First Cause" of Everything is thus an Enigma as it is impossible to understand how He could just be !? He doesn't conform to your experiences Sir!

If it is truly that difficult to understand... Then why do people claim to know? On what grounds do they base their knowledge?

If something as basic as the existence of a first cause is so complex and difficult to understand.. then why do you take the leap of saying it is a God.. and that this God has a certain nature? Or gender as you've just denoted?

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Wilgrea7:


As we've observed

Good!

Wilgrea7:

I can agree with that

Good!

Wilgrea7:

This is the issue. This discussion then shifts to the existence of necessary or contingent things. We've observed all things to be contingent.. that is.. dependent on something for their existence.

But if everything is contingent, then we'll arrive at an infinite regress. The issue with saying something is necessary.. and therefore can simply just exist without a cause.. is that it's difficult to pinpoint exactly what things have to be necessary.

We've observed contingent things. We've not directly.. as far as i know, observed any necessary thing. This is why i said the concept of an uncaused first cause.. is more of a philosophical one... Rather than something we've observed

Which brings me back to the question.. if one thing can be necessary, why can't 2 or 3 or 10?



If it is truly that difficult to understand... Then why do people claim to know? On what grounds do they base their knowledge?

If something as basic as the existence of a first cause is so complex and difficult to understand.. then why do you take the leap of saying it is a God.. and that this God has a certain nature? Or gender as you've just denoted?

Here I think you go emotional again. At this point, I am taking you through a journey of LOGIC.
If postulate 1 is correct (Every Effect is preceded by a Cause)
And
Postulate 2 is correct (It is a scientific and logical impossibility to have an infinite regress of cause and effect.)

Then, we must necessarily have conclusion 3 (Since evidence of cause and events abound, it is therefore necessary that an "Uncaused First Cause" of Everything be.)

At this point, forget about its true nature. That "UNCAUSED FIRST CAUSE" at this point could be singular or plural, such could be Animate or Inanimate, such could be Intelligent or Dumb etc.

The first is, DO YOU have a LOGICAL (rather than Emotional) objection with the CONCLUSION that

Since evidence of cause and events abound, it is therefore necessary that an "Uncaused First Cause" of Everything be.



We will after crossing this bridge logically cross the bridge of whether the SOURCE is single/many, animate/inanimate, weak/powerful etc

I will also LOGICALY answer your question about OBSERVATION of the SOURCE !

Wilgrea7:


I always try to be

I don't know. I sincerely don't. This is not a copout to try to deny the possibility of a god. I once held the notion that there must be an uncaused first cause.. but then i realized something.

The concept of an uncaused first cause is not a scientific one that has been proven by any evidence. It's more of a mental or philosophical thing we slap on to the question “why is there something rather than nothing?" in order to avoid the infinite regress fallacy.

It is actually scientific in that it is a PRODUCT of LOGIC. Logic is SCIENTIFIC!
If A>B (Postulate 1)
and
B>C (Postulate 1)
then
C> A ( Conclusion)

LOGIC is even more universally scientific because they are GENERIC and work Absolutely 100% of the time

Wilgrea7:

But in actuality... We have no idea. Infinite regress doesn't make sense to us. It is illogical. So the next logical explanation is a cause that wasn't caused, that led all things to be caused. But if we want to be honest with ourselves.. we need to admit that we don't just know at this point in time. If everything must need a cause, then why would an uncaused first cause truly be uncaused?

The question is uncomfortable either ways.. if the law of cause and effect holds true.. then we're faced with an uncomfortable infinite regress fallacy. Slapping on an uncaused first cause still violates the notion that everything that exists has a cause.

The Uncaused First Cause is just a necessary CONCLUSION to the postulate. There is no going round it. That is why many scientists who are Atheists are proposing an infinitely OSCILLATING UNIVERSE superimposed on the INFLATION theory. Which doesn't solve the problem anyways because every oscillation must start at a point.

The UNCAUSED FIRST CAUSE is an Unavoidable Conclusion!

Wilgrea7:

I don't know if you've heard of the Kalam cosmological argument. It tries to tackle this by saying “everything that begins to exist has a cause, rather than just everything has a cause.

But then, we're left asking ourselves.. what things exist, that did not begin to exist? Meaning.. what things are eternal in nature?

This is where my logic, quite frankly, breaks down.. if one thing can exist eternally (i.e not begin to exist), then why can't 2.. or 3.. or more. What law is there that could prevent it?

But we know that the Universe BEGAN at about 13.8 Billion Years ago from a SINGULAR gravitational singularity. It certainly has a beginning.

There is no going around this ENIGMA aka the SOURCE!

Wilgrea7:

If it exists... Then yes.. it would be regarded as the source of everything.

TRUE!
A SELF-EXISTENT FORCE is the NUCLEUS and CATALYST that produced every other thing that exist.

By Strict ATHEISTIC definition of things that EXIST must be necessarily things that are SCIENTIFICALLY OBSERVABLE!

Wilgrea7:


Thank you for removing the theistic bias. However.. apart from the fact that the uncaused first cause is still something we haven't figured out yet as humans.. the issue with theism.. is the very bias you put aside.

Like i said earlier.. the theist doesn't just claim the existence of this force. They claim to know it's nature.. it's will.. it's desires and it's intentions. It seems like a big logical leap, when we've not even finished determining with certainty, the existence of this aforementioned first cause.

Once we go past the understanding that an UNCAUSED FIRST CAUSE created/is the Origin of EVERYTHING, we can start LOGICALLY looking at the NECESSARY Qualities that would make HIM/IT so!

Jennygold111:

What is responsible for everything?

The SOURCE is responsible as the UNCAUSED FIRST CAUSE of Everything.

Jennygold111:

And you don't see the irony with your answer; what's your prove?

My proof is this


If postulate 1 is correct
(Every Effect is preceded by a Cause)
And
Postulate 2 is correct
(It is a scientific and logical impossibility to have an infinite regress of cause and effect.)

Then, we must necessarily have conclusion 3
(Since evidence of cause and events abound, it is therefore necessary that an "Uncaused First Cause" of Everything be.)

ReacherSaidNoth:
Pretending to be what you are not in order to please others is a kind of slavery.

I'd go on a limb and say every single human is guilty of this to varying degrees so we are all slaves to a degree

Templee333:

if there were God lovers who never love & pursue money I would've been among them years ago. Except u can prove to me that there's any christian today who view money from the standpoint of Jesus,Paul,Peter & other 1st century christians (if they existed at all), then i won't take ur statement above very serious.

In other words you followed the wide road were everyone is rather than the narrow way.

Of which I know the mistakes you made when you thought you were waiting on The Lord on the narrow way because that is the first place we must start being who we are.

However, if you had learnt what God was teaching, and passed those classes, then you would have known that what I say is Absolutely True!

I do say that money is one of the things any True Lover of God would never pursue for it is a mirage!

Kobojunkie:
She has a point.
If you are confident in your belief that there is no god, then why hide?

It isn't just ok to simply attach a label to oneself. If you are truly an atheist at heart, confidence will flow from this belief of yours. It is the same with everything else.

That's where wisdom comes to play, is it wise to attach a label to yourself if it could put your life at stake and also affect all the friendship you have?

Templee333:
There's something that happen in the minds of people who lost their believe in God. Its like the story of a crafty tortoise attending a feast in the sky with his birds friends lending it one feather each to fly & how it came to have a rough shell...u must have believed this as a child! Later u came 2 realize as an adult that these stories aren't real but someone is now trying to let u believe them again.
No matter how hard an atheist try,i dont think he/she can believe in God again! Never!

No one believed that story but the one every reasonable person accepts is the good or bad lessons depending on the individual preference, we could learn from it.

Dtruthspeaker:


In other words you followed the wide road were everyone is rather than the narrow way.

Of which I know the mistakes you made when you thought you were waiting on The Lord on the narrow way because that is the first place we must start being who we are.

However, if you had learnt what God was teaching, and passed those classes, then you would have known that what I say is Absolutely True!

I do say that money is one of the things any True Lover of God would never pursue for it is a mirage!

since u are able to knw the thoughs & motives of people even when u've never meet them in real life, u must be a superhuman & i can't debate with u. Have a nice day!

Templee333:

real things don't require believe. Again, things dont have to be real b4 they can make sense.

How many times have you been hit with the "I see it but I don't believe it" syndrome? Eg seeing a married woman you respect cheating?

Templee333:

since u are able to knw the thoughs & motives of people even when u've never meet them in real life, u must be a superhuman & i can't debate with u. Have a nice day!

That is what it means to be a creation. All Toyotas shall act as a Toyota and all iPhones shall behave as iPhones.

Jennygold111:

That's where wisdom comes to play, is it wise to attach a label to yourself if it could put your life at stake and also affect all the friendship you have?

PLEASE FAKE WHERE YOU NEED TO FAKE. DON'T EVEN TRY TO EDUCATE OR DISCUSS. RELIGION IS A SENSITIVE TOPIC. MOST PEOPLE WILL ONLY GET EMOTIONAL. IT'S NOT WORTH YOUR LIFE OR EVEN THE HASSLE. TRUST ME.

Bluewitch:


Yen yen...
That's what you guys keep saying..
But the moment someone claims to be an Atheist you guys demonize the person immediately

Let your neighbour or new colleague come and say he is a ritualist whether you would not run.

Atheists means Satanism. And every one who does not like God loves Satan.

Any one who does not like God does not like good things.

And any one who does not like good things, loves evil things.

And no reasonable person can like a person who likes evil unless of course they are birds of the same feather.

Even then we see that evil people do not let their fellow evil friend live with them.

Why?

Because evil is always bad!

And an atheist is a person sworn to be bad where most people are bad but they at least do not openly tell the world that they are bad and that they shall be as afficiando7 said up.

But nonetheless, we all know that people are bad and shall be bad and shall do bad and evil things.

Its as simple as that!

Yes for peace to reign.

To fill in forms and the rest, just put christianity and move

Rosrozz:
Most atheists are never bold to come out, just some online gragra but in reality they hide their heads in shame which brings me to ask why would a sane person practice what he/she isn’t proud of?

I don't hide mine.

thesicilian:

What made you become an atheist

What made you become a Christian?

Rosrozz:
Most atheists are never bold to come out, just some online gragra but in reality they hide their heads in shame which brings me to ask why would a sane person practice what he/she isn’t proud of?

Nothing about shame, they blend in to make life easier... people generally don't have sense and are so judgemental just like you are

Jennygold111:
Is it wise to play along with been a Christian as an Atheist? I am finding it difficult to fake, it seems like a major blow to myself to lie to myself.

lets be friends. how do i reach you

I was an atheist in school and never lost a religious argument. I only did it in my hostel outside campus. I went to a school with lots of Islamic fanatics. So i never engaged them o. At work place i never talk about religion as they may use it against you. Relationship wise i told the babes and 98% of them took off or made it only about nacks and no future there

Rosrozz:
Most atheists are never bold to come out, just some online gragra but in reality they hide their heads in shame which brings me to ask why would a sane person practice what he/she isn’t proud of?

everyone in my family knows i am an atheist. but i advice people who are dependent not to reveal their unbelief.

Rumors of Lucifer; I don't know who to trust
Whole world want my demise; turn my music up…

Big ups bruh. FreeMason!

CandyOps:



Even Jay-Z said, "Niggas couldn't do nothing with me; they put the devil on me
I'd have preferred niggas to squeeze the metal on me"

Dtruthspeaker:


Let your neighbour or new colleague come and say he is a ritualist whether you would not run.

Atheists means Satanism. And every one who does not like God loves Satan.

Any one who does not like God does not like good things.

And any one who does not like good things, loves evil things.

And no reasonable person can like a person who likes evil unless of course they are birds of the same feather.

Even then we see that evil people do not let their fellow evil friend live with them.

Why?

Because evil is always bad!

And an atheist is a person sworn to be bad where most people are bad but they at least do not openly tell the world that they are bad and that they shall be as afficiando7 said up.

But nonetheless, we all know that people are bad and shall be bad and shall do bad and evil things.

Its as simple as that!

You lack knowledge of what you are saying. Do you even know the origin of the word “satan”?

A SATANIST is a THEIST, A Sango Worshipper is THEIST, A Baal Worshipper is a THEIST, A Yahweh worshipper is a THEIST, A Allah worshipper is THEIST, etc.
And then we have ATHEISTS that don’t believe or worship any of these deities.

You are indeed the dumbest THEIST on nairaland.

thesicilian:

That's not a fair answer. It's almost as if we're fighting. Your answer suggests that every theist is unreasonable or immature in terms of reasoning faculty. I believe you should be able to make your point without trying to bring down others at the same time.

every theist that has heard the arguments of an atheist and still is a theist is unreasonable. can you tell me the reasonable reason why you believe in god?

Rosrozz:
Most atheists are never bold to come out, just some online gragra but in reality they hide their heads in shame which brings me to ask why would a sane person practice what he/she isn’t proud of?

You want the public to Lynch them!

What's the point of pretending?!! No one will kill you for being an Atheist.

Just avoid the need to make light of others who choose to be Theists.