A001:

Good response. About the chicken or egg issue, I don't like to dabble too much into philosophy.

From my own view using the scientific method, consciousness is a fundamental and primordial property of the Universe, meaning it was in existence first before everything else.

TenQ:

Hmn!
I think you just successfully defined the Creator and Uncaused First-Cause of Everything (aka God) in a technical term except that except that as of today, the general consensus of science is that the universe has a beginning.

Now, if the universe has a beginning (the laws of physics and chemistry must have a beginning), does the fundamental and primordial property of the Universe have a beginning?

If the fundamental and primordial property of the Universe has a beginning can we not say that matter and chemistry created consciousness?

Sorry, you are not much into philosophy but these are the questions

A001:

Natural and physical.

A001:

Well, I don't know the Creator you're talking about. Atum? Ra? Allah? Olorun Eledumare? Yahweh? Zeus? Which one? There are thousands of them.

A001:

I don't agree that the Universe has a beginning. Space and time don't exist outside the Universe but within it. So it has no beginning and end.

A001:

The given age of the Universe tells us the Big Bang brought the Universe into existence about 13.7 billion years ago. That's with respect to our (earthly) frame of reference, especially within the construct of time, which is an illusion created by our brains.

In the universal frame, time doesn't exist. Existence has no beginning or end.

TenQ:

Then you contradict science as before the big bang, there was the gravitational singularity which is primarily a dense infinitesimally small point where there is breakdown in the laws of physics and mass/chemistry doesn't exist

TenQ:

Does the fundamental and primordial property of the Universe have a beginning?

A001:

A breakdown in the laws of Physics means space and time don't exist in that frame. When space doesn't exist, mass doesn't as well

A001:

No. It's photonic. If you can see the world as a photon, you'll see everything happening all at once as time and space won't exist. No beginning and end: cyclical existence in infinities.

But the human brain is very limited. However, the Universal Consciousness or Universal Mind (not a person, but a system) isn't, and it sees all at once.

A001:

The mind exists in the brain, which is the organ of consciousness in higher animals like humans. Thus, anything that affects the brain affects the mind as well.

Consciousness is a fundamental force and interacts with other fundamental forces, especially EM forces (via ions) in the brain. These interactions are mainly responsible for what we call the mind. Drugs affect the ions in the brain and therefore influence these interactions between the fundamental forces, including consciousness and EM, in the mind.

kkins25:


Then how did the mind come to be?

A001:

The mind exists in the brain, which is the organ of consciousness in higher animals like humans. Thus, anything that affects the brain affects the mind as well.
Consciousness is a fundamental force and interacts with other fundamental forces, especially EM forces (via ions) in the brain. These interactions are mainly responsible for what we call the mind. Drugs affect the ions in the brain and therefore influence these interactions between the fundamental forces, including consciousness and EM, in the mind.

TenQ:

Here, I agree with you. If space, time and matter doesn't exist, then the Universe doesn exist.


I see that you are willing to concede that the Universal Consciousness or Universal Mind Exist before the Universe BUT you OBJECT that he's a person ( but a System).

What then is a System:
A system is a set of interconnected or interrelated components or parts that work together to achieve a specific purpose or function.

1. Can a system be Conscious but not a Being?
2. Is the quest of achieving a specific purpose or function something derived from Deliberate or Random action?

I think (going by your definition of the source as) Universal Consciousness or Universal Mind that Exist before the Universe should be a PERSON!

My argument:
If a system is conscious, such must be a Living Personality!

What do you think?

A001:

A breakdown in the laws of Physics means space and time don't exist in that frame. When space doesn't exist, mass doesn't as well


No. It's photonic. If you can see the world as a photon, you'll see everything happening all at once, as time and space won't exist. No beginning and end: cyclical existence in infinities.

But the human brain is very limited. However, the Universal Consciousness or Universal Mind (not a person, but a system) isn't, and it sees all at once.

If a system is conscious, such must be a Living Personality!

A001:

Not a person, but a system: A superposition or summation of all individual minds and consciousnesses in the Universe connected as one. I regard all things (both living and non-living) in the Universe as interconnected.

If you know the principle of superposition of waves in Physics, you should understand this.

kkins25:
@tenq, what is a being?

kkins25:

An argument for God? Then, where does this living personality abide? In the universe? Outside the universe? is the universe itself? 1. Can a system be Conscious but not a Being?
2. Is the quest of achieving a specific purpose or function something derived from Deliberate or Random action?

TenQ:

I understand the principle of superposition of waves from my A'Level Physics however, I don't see the connection with consciousness, mind and matter.

TenQ:

You didn't answer these questions of mine:
1. Can a system be Conscious but not a Being?

TenQ:

2. Is the quest of achieving a specific purpose or function something derived from Deliberate or Random actions?

This will help us comprehend the nature of this "System"

A001:

Don't worry. You'll get the connection later when scientists successfully incorporate consciousness into Physics. Several research efforts and programs are underway to achieve this.

A001:

Yes. It's your brain creating an illusion of a being, instead of just consciousness and energy existing.

A001:

It's both deterministic and random (probabilistic). The truth is, chance or randomness is inherent in nature, as explained in Quantum Physics, yet many natural phenomena are deterministic, especially at the macroscopic scale.

TenQ:

Meaning that this is just a postulate and you are hoping for future validation.
Suppose this never happens?

TenQ:

Unfortunately, the Universal Consciousness or Universal Mind Exist exist without the materials that brains are made of. So, for the Universal Consciousness or Universal Mind Exist, how does the brain create an illusion of consciousness?

TenQ:

Deterministic: Set forth according to some laws, direction, purpose and principles
Random: meaningless incoordination set of actions
Deterministic- Yes!
Random- No!

Except if that which determines decided to set forth some situations where statistical chance is the objective.


Are these TWO this statements below true or False?
If the System is a MIND, then it must be Conscious.
If the System is Conscious, then it must be a Being.

A001:

So far, many ideas put forward by scientists conducting consciousness studies are postulates or propositions. I thought I made that clear already, and then, those papers I shared explained that. One step before the other. Some of the ideas could be confirmed empirically sooner or later.

A001:

This statement isn't clear. If you're expecting scientists to confirm a being called Yahweh is the creator of the Universe, you'll wait forever as Yahweh is just one of the thousands of gods in existence claiming to be the creator of the Universe.

Yes. It's your brain creating an illusion of a being, instead of just consciousness and energy existing.

Unfortunately, the Universal Consciousness or Universal Mind Exist exist without the materials that brains are made of. So, for the Universal Consciousness or Universal Mind Exist, how does the brain create an illusion of consciousness?

A001:

God is just a word. A mere word.

It's more probable for the Universe to be a conscious system that emerged from Nothing than for the Universe to be created by all these your small gods of religion like Jehovah.

A001:

As said earlier, chance or randomness is inherent in nature, as explained in Quantum Physics. Life is both deterministic (especially at the macroscopic scale) and random (probabilistic, especially at the sub-atomic or microscopic scale).

If your background in Physics is solid, you should understand this clearly, especially if you understand the distinction between Classical or Newtonian Mechanics and Quantum Mechanics.

TenQ:

Meaning that this is just a postulate and you are hoping for future validation.


You said:

My response was that:

This I said because the universal Consciousness or Universal Mind Exist exist without the materials (brain is made of matter)


I've tried to use the term with you as

I think (going by your definition of the source as) Universal Consciousness or Universal Mind that Exist before the Universe should be a PERSON what we Christians call God!

You don't have to agree with our definition

A001:

The Universal Consciousness or Universal Mind I stated isn't your small, vengeful god, Yahweh. No. It's not a person, but a system, the superposition of all individual minds and consciousnesses in the Universe.

Your Yahweh is immaterial and useless in this discussion.

TenQ:

Why is it that when people are boxed in a corner, they begin to exhibit the rottenness in their hearts. It's a pity that you can't define a Being as whatever is conscious!
BUT
Since I won't abuse you back, it's time to go.

Till another time.

Have a good night rest

TenQ:


It seems the Mind (ability to store and process information) depends on feeling such as hunger, thirst, heat, fear , lust etc

These are feelings that are not registered in our biological frame (our body)..

This gives the impression that we have two bodies
1. The Physical Body:
Where we experience pain, tickle, brightness/sight, coldness, loudness etc
2. Non physical Body,:
Where we experience fear, joy, sadness, lust, despair, courage. etc


Of course, there can be overlap between the senses.

What is common to both is that they are not functions of thought, thinking or rationalising

They may have to do with our previous experiences sometimes: eg. Some certain PHOBIAS may be developed as a result of past experiences with snakes, dogs, darkness, water etc.

I think it is mundane to assume that the mind is just a function of chemicals reacting with cranial matters.

LordReed:


No doubt our knowledge of all the mechanisms of the mind is incomplete but all the evidence we currently have point in this direction. I await your specific objections, let's see what the knowledge base has to say about them.

triplechoice:



First of all ,what is mind as you understand it. Most people are not sure of what it is .Let me know your own definition of mind ,or the one you subscribe to so I can be sure we are on the same page on the matter.


That aside, please permit me to present to you the model of consciousness I currently work with. It doesn't find full scientific yet, so you are free to accept it if it resonates with you ,or reject it if it doesn't .

The terms, mind and consciousness, are used interchangeably by most people to mean the same thing, but they do not actually refer to the same reality.

Consciousness is the non physical aspect of one's being, (one's true self) ,whose exact nature is not known and understood by most people , that has occupied a physical body to experience life materially.

While, the human mind is formed from what consciousness, 'the real person, has made of all the impressions received through the brain. .The mind can also be regarded as an inner mental construct which houses all thoughts generated by the being occupying the body ,as well as the thoughts received from other people .

Fascimiles of these thoughts when created or received are simultaneosly stored in the brain memory to enable easier retrieval when needed.

What most people are actually doing when they believe they are thinking is just rehashing thoughts which are already stored in mind in order to select the best ones to guide what they want to do or say. Only few persons are capable of really thinking in order to come up with innovative ideas.

The brain, which corresponds to the mind, is the device in the body, that helps to modulate the functions of the physical body. How it does this has been scientifically explained .

Without a brain ,consciousness, the owner of the body cannot manifest its intentions through it.



And because of the synergy which exists amongs consciousness, the mind and the observable physical brain to control objective behaviour, It's difficult to see any separation between the them

But they can be separated .

For instance, If the body desires food, it sends signals through the mind to the brain repeatedly until one is forced to act on it to move the physical body to go look for food.

We all can recollect those times in the past when an image of something; a place to visit or a food to eat it, is insistently flashed across the screen of our mind, without us being able to do anything to stop the thoughts. For some persons ,the signal manifest as a nudge to act on something .

Once this starts to happen, our brain, which is connected to mind, starts preparing the body for action . If it's sex ,we start to experience an erection . My apologies for the sex illustration .

When the consciousness within, the real person, that dwells in the body is not fully awaken to what is going on within itself , and is unable to pause to reason it out, whether to act or not
,it obeys like a zombie to move the body to go get the food , without giving much consideration to the fact it just finished eating that same food, and not even hungry yet.


The knowledge of what I just explained is the guiding principle behind all kinds of advertising, ,especially the insidious type of modern advertising that uses subliminal mesasges to get to one's mind in order to force you to buy something you don't even need. .

When we watch our favourite programme on television ,our brain is inundated at regular intervals with images from advertisers that are meant to control the things we will do later.

Understanding correctly what we truly are can only empower us to take control of our own lives so that other people don't influences us unduly and make us act in ways that are to our own detriment




.

I can't make head nor tail of what you explained up there.


Overlap between what senses?



You need to revisit what you typed and make it very clear.
.

Who has said the mind is just a function of chemicals?, and how is that even explained ?

I don't agree to that .

Chemicals produce in the brain are most times the effects of what is going on within the mind .

TenQ:
Let me attempt to simplify the description of the Mind


A man is made as a Trinity of a Body, Soul and Spirit.
Body:
The Body is the Physical representation of a man's being in the physical world. He is able to make physical changes to his environment and sense energies from his environment. In the physical realm, the Body is a Man's Physical Identity
The Spirit :
The Spirit is the Spiritual representation of a man's being in the spirit world. He is able to make spiritual changes to his environment and sense energies from this environment. In the spirit realm, the Spirit is a Man's Spiritual Identity
Soul:
The Soul is the Personal representation of a man's being to Himself. A man is able to Will, Think and Express Emotions with his soul. The man's Soul is His INTERNAL identity of I, ME or MYSELF.
The Soul interfaces with the Physical Body and the Spiritual Body of a man.

At Physical Death, the Body is disconnected from the Union of His Soul and Body.
At Physical Death, the Soul remains connected to the Spirit of the Person.


The Soul is akin to the SOFTWARE (Application Software and System Software/Operating System) of the Hardwares of the Body and his Spirit.

The Brain is akin to the Union of the CPU, GPU, ROM, RAM and HDD of a Computer System.

The MIND is the Union of the Faculty of INTELECT, WILL and MEMORY of an individual. It is a subset of the Soul

All Insects, Animals have a Body and a Soul.
All Angels Have a Soul and a Spirit Body
All Demons have a Soul and a Spirit Body
All Humans have a Spirit, Soul and a Body.

triplechoice:


The evidences we currently have doesnt point in the direction you imagined. You think so because you are viewing things from a strictly atheistic position and not able or willing to consider other possibilities .


Atheist materialist are the people mostly involved in a wrong interpretation of what has been discovered about the mind and brain . .


Present the evidences and let me show you how they do not point in the direction you think.

triplechoice:


I have read the above a thousand times here on Nairaland , and find it not really describing anything one can make sense of.

The physical body is known ,but not much is known by everyone about the soul and especially the spirit you mentioned .

It's the human being we are talking about here ,and since you are that ,you would need to demonstrate using your own personal experiences to confirm all the things you have declared about soul,spirit and mind.

triplechoice:


So here we go .

1. What is spirit and its exact nature . How do you arrive at the conclusion that you have a spirit that is different from your body ,mind and soul . Share an experience of yours alongside your explanation to prove your have a spirit .

triplechoice:

2. How do you know that another aspect of yourself is soul. What experiences of yours has confirmed this for you ?

triplechoice:


3. Furthermore, how do you know that animals ,Angels and demons have soul and spirit.

triplechoice:

4 . And again, where is the spirit realm, and how do you function in that place as spirit while still occupying your physical body ?

triplechoice:

5. Finally where is the mind located as subset of the soul .
There are more questions to come later ,but answer these ones first .

triplechoice:

Please don't ignore what I have said . Your answers must be with reference to your own personal expereinces ,if not ,it would mean you preached church doctrine alone and not facts .

Show me you have experienced what you have declared about the soul and spirit .

TenQ:

1. First and foremost, I am a Christian and all my doctrines is from the Bible. I trust with my life the messages and information in the bathroom Bible.
2. The Bible is a book of History, Teaching, Admonition, Warning, Encouragement and not a book of Science and Philosophy
3. As a Rational being, I sometimes attempt to comprehend spiritual truths from the Bible with physical things for ease of understanding.
4. I therefore use Philosophy, Logic and Science as a Natural tool to aid understanding of the spiritual.
5. The summary is that I believe in the existence of a higher Dimension of invisible space with invisible beings where God, Angels, Demons have their domain



1. The Bible teaches so
2. I have a little privilege of casting out demons from a few people as described in the Bible using the name and power of Christ and have the same kind of manifestations as shown in the Bible.

Of course just as it is mundane to ask for the colour of electrons (I've never seen one), don't ask me for the physical description of demons.

A spirit is a non physical being!


The Person I call I, ME or MYSELF is not my physical body. You can surgically modify my body and I know that I would still keep my Identity as ME!

This is what is called my SOUL. My Personal Identity (my Soul) is defined by the three expressions of Emotion, Will and Intellect.


The Soul is the Personal or Internal Identity of any being. Goat A and Goat B are different identities even to themselves. They individually experience emotions, think and make decisions just like me.

Angels and Demons are each individually different and they all express emotions, they are intelligent and have abilities to express their will.


My spirit is the least appreciated part of Me because I live in the Physical Space and I survive in this space using more of my Soul and Spirit. My Spirit is that which communicate Faith as a settled knowing to me even when the odds is exceptionality at variance with the expectation.
My Conscience with the sense of Morality are from the senses of my spirit man communicated to my soul.

Other than this, at death when my physical body is shed. I still will have my identity complete with my spirit body until the day of resurrection.



The Soul Expresses:
1. EMOTION
2. WILL
3. INTELLECT

The mind is our Cognitive sence for thinking which consists of our Will and Intellect: a subset of the expression of the Soul.




I think I've answered you.

I have done a lot of electrical and electronics works, I have never personally seen nor weighed nor measured an electron in my life, yet I believe electrons exist! How? I have applied them in circuits.
Same with the Issue of Spirit, Soul and Body.

Let me ask you a question:
1. Do you think there is a strong parallel between an advanced AI robot and a human being?
2. If the above were correct, if you open up the memory of the advanced AI robot, would you find the computer programs and the associated data in it?
3. Do you think that the DNA is like a book of instruction that spells out every little detail about a being?
4. Do you think in this physical space, a system of computer code, it's compiler and the associated hardware can self evolve?

triplechoice:


Good. So how did you come to accept ,just as you have done with 'electrical and electronics works ' that you have a spirit, through your own personal experience of working with your own body and the other parts of your invisible self ?

Or is the spirit and soul made of electrons



The above questions are not relevant to what I want you to explain . I think you want to deflect .

First if all ,describe everything you know about the soul and spirit to enable me see if it can be compared to an advanced AI.



An AI machine is something we can see or interact with physically . You have not demonstrated how we can interact with spirit or what it's , yet you want to compare it with an AI .

It doesn't make any sense .

Modified. I just noticed that you edited your reply . I will respond to your other explanations later

TenQ:

If you have no courtesy to reply to my questions, why do you think I should respond to yours

LordReed:


Your mention was buried amongst others so didn't see it early

1. Drugs, alcohol and other chemicals alteration of the emotional and mind states.

But not everyone is affected. Some people are not affected at all or affected exactly the same way like others . Why ?
[quote]
2. Brain imaging showing thought patterns which are consistent across individuals, meaning it doesn't matter who is being subjected to brain imaging similar thought patterns produce similar images.

3. Behavioural changes stemming from brain trauma of various sorts eg. surgery, brain tumors/cancer, stroke, brain injury, etc.[quote]

The behavioural changes is sometimes due to how the person has responded to what has happened them. Neuroscientist have also observed persons with brain defects that did not lead to behavioural changes and behavioural changes not traceable to the brain . Why? They say it's a puzzle .. It appears you focus only on reading what supports what you want to accept and ignore the one's that don't . I read everything concerning any matter to help me judge correctly . To know the truth one needs to read everything.
[quote]
4. Behavioural changes stemming from various bodily or organ dysfunction.

These are the ones I can muster off the tip of my finger tips.

triplechoice:


What is this ?



Where is the lack of courtesy.?

Your number 4 questions talks about evolution which has nothing to do with the ongoing conversation . Why should I answer it at this time when we are yet to finish with the business of describing soul and spirit

And even the DNA stuff . What has that got to do with spirit and soul .

I was the one that ask first . You didn't answer directly to my questions yet you accuse me of lacking courtesy . Oh

triplechoice:
I thought so and knew you will respond once you see it.

This is not completely true . You have depended on studies with few sample sizes to conclude .Thought patterns are not consistent across individuals. They may appear similar but not exactly the same .The minor differences is why no two persons behave or perceive things exactly the same way . You need to revisit where you got that from or let me see it to judge for myself.

I think I already answered this. It doesn't happen to everyone with the same problem . That is the mystery .