JMAN05:


I think your position is the one that would conflict with the whole bible message cos it is based on few verses of the bible, and contradicts many parts. Context always helps us to establish the meaning of a bible portion.

God's justice and Love are also essential part to be considered. Do not make Him unjust and unloving by detaching a verse and interpreting in isolation. If your interpretation does not agree with other parts of the bible, it is wrong.

Paul who was called, made this comment:

1Cor 9:24-27

"Do you not know that the runners in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win it. 25 Now everyone competing in a contest exercises self-control in all things. Of course, they do it to receive a crown that can perish, but we, one that does not perish. 26 Therefore, the way I am running is not aimlessly; the way I am aiming my blows is so as not to be striking the air; 27 but I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, so that after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow."

Paul here shows that if he did not make earnest effort in conduct, he could lose the prize just like a runner in a race would.

We all have a choice, either to live or to eternal destruction.

Rev 2;10

Do not be afraid of the things you are about to suffer. Look! The Devil will keep on throwing some of you into prison so that you may be fully put to the test, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Prove yourself faithful even to death, and I will give you the crown of life.

verse 23:

And I will kill her children with deadly plague, so that all the congregations will know that I am the one who searches the innermost thoughts and hearts, and I will give to you individually according to your deeds
What could be the purpose of such a search when He had already coded their fate?
The reward is according to their deeds, not according to their destiny.

It's true that we are not to walk according to predestination. Though we know of a fact of God's election or ordained will, we are called to live by faith not predestination. We are not called to "relax" or "live as we want" but we are to walk in grace and do good works.

You said what's the purpose of the search if He God has already coded their destiny. Are you kidding me Is this reasonable to you that God does not know the destinies of men?
But if by "coded" you mean determined. Then you are saying because God has determined a man's destiny, He cannot then be able to search the man's heart. You definitely don't know what you are saying.

Meanwhile. God would judge us according to our deeds in our bodies. True. But the deeds of the righteous are wrought in grace. So they are considered as fruits of the gift of grace or eternal life. There is no room for boasting because it is God's work from beginning to end.

The wicked are judged by their deeds too but their works are not according to the gift of grace or eternal life but they are by their sinful flesh and considered dead works. The wicked boast in their works. Their plea is not the blood of Jesus or the finished work of Christ but their works. They want God to usher them into His presence on the basis of their deeds or works and not His free grace. Oh what a waste!!! They had zeal but not according to knowledge! They heard the gospel of free grace but they rejected it and preferred to put their trust in their works!

Matthew 7:21-23

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

An2elect2:

First of all. The crown of life is not eternal life. Christians have eternal life already.

An2elect2:

Christians are not enduring death or suffering to earn eternal life but they are suffering because of the love of God in their hearts and the glory ahead.

Splinz:


According to An2elect2. This is just one of your blatant fabrications. And indeed, it is such a shame.

John 5:26 states: “For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself...” and “Who only hath immortality...” (1 Timothy 6:16). These are plain bible verses that shows that God alone is the possessor of immortality/eternal life now!

As for His promise of granting eternal life to us, ...“But now we see not yet all things put under him [man]. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man (Hebrews 2:8-9). Like Jesus ,who after doing His Father will was crowned with glory and honour at the end, so has He also promised to give this crown of life to those who also endured to the end (Rev. 2:10, 3:21, Matthew 24:13).

Furthermore, 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 states: “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory”? Do you grasp this understanding? Eternal life is granted to us at the LAST TRUMP, which herald the arrival of the King of kings to give reward according to each man's works (Rev. 22:12).

This is when we are changed from mortals to immortals! This is when you can claim eternal life! Doing so now depicts either ignorance or sheer wishful thinking. Besides, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 15:50). Are you now a spirit being? Eternal life is still a promise! (Hebrews 11:39).



Story. We are to overcome/endure in order to receive our reward, just like Jesus did. (Revelation 3:21). A winner is not crowned if he/she doesn't play according to the rules!

An2elect2:
I won't bother countering the falsehood up there cos I perceive you are hardhearted and of course hate the truth. You seek not the truth but a reinforcement of the lies you adore but God will judge all men by the gospel I have preached here, which is Paul's gospel. God bearing me witness I have said all that needs to be said to you. May the Lord have mercy.

menxer:


Isn't that a little egoistic?
So you are a Paulian not a Christian?

Lol not true. Paul's gospel is the gospel of God. And no Jew or gentile can be saved without it. Paul called it his gospel because that's the gospel God gave him to preach to the gentiles which is distinct from the one given to the 12.



Romans 15:15-19
Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.
For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

Romans 2:16
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Galatians 2:7-8
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles.

We are to preach Paul's gospel or rather God's gospel

An2elect2:
Lol not true. Paul's gospel is the gospel of God. And no Jew or gentile can be saved without it. Paul called it his gospel because that's the gospel God gave him to preach to the gentiles which is distinct from the one given to the 12.



Romans 15:15-19
Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.
For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

Romans 2:16
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Galatians 2:7-8
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles.

We are to preach Paul's gospel or rather God's gospel

menxer:


what happens to the Gospel of Jesus?

An2elect2:
[i] That's the gospel Paul preached. It's not from Paul but Jesus himself.

When Jesus was on earth he ministered only to those of the circumcision, teaching them the Law and the Kingdom of God. The law as a school master that leads us to Christ and the Kingdom of God as a reality after His death. These He commanded His disciples to do too. They were not to leave Jerusalem. (Even when they faced persecution, they still remained there.)

But after his ascension, He called and separated Paul to minister to the gentiles the gospel of free grace These gentiles would not be justified by the law but by faith. This, to prove that the righteousness of the law can only be obtained by faith and not by works of the law. So those of the circumcision (to whom Christ preached to) would come to see that those without the Law have the righteousness of the law which they themselves cannot obtain by works.

So God is no author of confusion. The disciples with Jesus were not to go to the gentiles with their gospel of the Kingdom so they don't lay another foundation different from God's plan for the gentiles and the remnant of jews. God's plan for us all is for us to be justified by faith in Christ alone apart from the law. Both Jews and gentiles.

When you study Romans, you will see that God blinded the Israelites to not believe the gospel Paul preached and be saved (Only few believed) and God provoked them to jealousy by going after the Gentiles that were not seeking Him and granted them true repentance through Paul's gospel.

menxer:


So Jesus could not preach grace & faith to his own people but directed it be preached to the gentiles? Is that not deception?

Are you understanding this, God blinded the Isrealites not to believe though Jesus came to them and was among them?
God provoked Isrealites to jealous and granted gentiles true repentance?
Are you serious?

Yes! Read Romans 9 so you understand why. At the end, they would be brought in. God would through the mercy of the gentiles have mercy upon them. Romans 11.

If God could do that to his own chosen people, can you imagine what he would do to the gentiles?

They say God doesn't change yet by this your comment he appears to be very fickle.

An2elect2:
...but God will judge all men by the gospel I have preached here, which is Paul's gospel.

An2elect2:

God bearing me witness I have said all that needs to be said to you.

An2elect2:

May the Lord have mercy.

An2elect2:
Well, if you understand that there cannot be a testament without the testator dying (just like your will cannot be read except you die) you will understand why the gospel of free grace had to be preached(revealed) after Christ's death.

Jesus made mention of faith and grace and taught about them mostly in parables (difficult for men to understand) but they were not enforced until after His death.

Hebrews 9:15-17
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.



Yes! Read Romans 9 so you understand why. At the end, they would be brought in. God would through the mercy of the gentiles have mercy upon them. Romans 11.

God's people are not natural Jews but Spiritual Israelites. Read Romans 9:23-25.
That's why the promise made to Abraham was not through the law but the righteousness of faith

Romans 4:13-16
For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all

[i] God knew/loved His people before the world began. And these people are scattered all over the world.
Earthly Israelites were the symbolic representation of the true Israelites (who may or may not be from Israel but are the elect chosen from the foundation of the world)

God is the same yesterday, today and forever.

menxer:

.

The law was given to the earthly Israelites but Grace to the spiritual Israelites, right?

Yes!!!!!

An2elect2:
Yes!!!!!

menxer:


Who gave the law?
God

Who gave the grace?
God

Yet it's said God knows the end from the beginning, but didn't know law would not do the work of grace.
Makes sense right?

ichuka:

The law was not given for it to be upheld,no it was given in full knowledge for it to be BROKEN!!by so doing,He's finished work on Calvary would be accepted.that is Grace.which is the Gospel.

menxer:


Who gave the law?
God

Who gave the grace?
God

Yet it's said God knows the end from the beginning, but didn't know law would not do the work of grace.
Makes sense right?

An2elect2:
Lol you are asking me why God ordained means to accomplish all His purposes.

menxer:


No that is not my question.

Those that recieved the law did not know grace will replace it, we that are in grace now do not know what will replace it.

An2elect2:
Do you believe the Bible?

menxer:


Is that why you avoided answering this:

The will or testament comes to effect at the death of the testator, that is if the testator dies and remains dead. In this case Jesus is said to have come back to life, does the will still come to effect since the testator in this case is still alive?

OK, he died to activate the testament then comes back to life, meaning divine law can be circumvented?

I don't believe the Bible but I believe the Truth wherever I find it.

An2elect2:
I didn't answer that because I have already. He didn't continue to live on earth after His death.

Well you don't believe the Bible that's why you keep wondering why things are not the way you think they should be.
But how would we have known being born into this world made sense if we weren't born in the first place.

menxer:


It's the same thing.

If the law was given to be "broken" at calvary, grace is equally given to be "broken" at a certain point in time.

When the law was given was it stated it was for a period of time?

Now that Grace is given is it stated if it is for a period of time?

If God knew that the law would be broken at calvary and still gave it, where is wisdom in that?

How many centuries was the law in effect before being broken?
How many centuries would grace be in effect before it is "broken" by the next paradigm shift?

Besides, I guess you followed the arguments before commenting.

An2elect2:
THE REFORMED DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION

Chapter I

Introduction

The purpose of this book is not to set forth a new system of theological thought, but to give a re-statement to that great system which is known as the Reformed Faith or Calvinism, and to show that this is beyond all doubt the teaching of the Bible and of reason.

Then, too, when we stop to consider that among nonChristian religions Mohammedanism has so many millions who believe in some kind of Predestination, that the doctrine of Fatalism has been held in some form or other in several heathen countries, and that the mechanistic and deterministic philosophies have exerted such great influences in England, Germany, and America, we see that this doctrine is at least worthy of careful study. From the time of the Reformation up until about one hundred years ago these doctrines were boldly set forth by the great majority of the ministers and teachers in the Protestant churches; but today we find far the greater majority holding and teaching other systems. It is only rarely that we now come across those who can be called "Calvinists without reserve." We may quite appropriately apply to our own churches the words of Toplady in regard to the Church of England: "Time has been when the Calvinistic doctrines were considered and defended as the Palladium of our Established Church; by her bishops and clergy, by the universities, and the whole body of the laity. It was (during the reigns of Edward VI, Queen Elizabeth, James I, and the greater part of Charles I) as difficult to meet with a clergyman who did not preach the doctrines of the Church of England, as it is now to find one who does. We have generally forsaken the principles of the Reformation, and Ichabod, or 'the glory is departed,' has been written on most of our pulpits and church-doors ever since." [Preface to Zanchius' Predestination, p. 16.] The tendency in our enlightened age is to look upon Calvinism as a worn-out and obsolete creed. At the beginning of his splendid article on "The Reformed Faith in the Modern World," Prof. F. E. Hamilton says, "It seems to be tacitly assumed by a large number of people in the Presbyterian Church today that Calvinism has been outgrown in religious circles. In fact, the average church member, or even minister of the gospel, is inclined to look upon a person who declares that he believes in Predestination, with a glance of amused tolerance. It seems incredible to them that there should exist such an intellectual curiosity as a real Calvinist, in an age of enlightenment like the present. As for seriously examining the arguments for Calvinism, the idea never enters their heads. It is deemed as out of date as the Inquisition, or the idea of a fiat world, and is looked upon as one of the fantastic schemes of thought that men held before the age of modern science." Because of this present day attitude toward Calvinism, and because of the general lack of information concerning these doctrines, we regard the subject of this book as one of great importance. It was Calvin who wrought out this system of theological thought with such logical clearness and emphasis that it has ever since borne his name. He did not, of course, originate the system but only set forth what appeared to him to shine forth so clearly from the pages of Holy Scripture. Augustine had taught the essentials of the system a thousand years before Calvin was born, and the whole body of the leaders of the Reformation movement taught the same. But it was given to Calvin with his deep knowledge of Scripture, his keen intellect and systematizing genius, to set forth and defend these truths more clearly and ably than had ever been done before. We call this system of doctrine "Calvinism," and accept the term "Calvinist" as our badge of honor; yet names are mere conveniences. "We might," says Warburton, "quite as appropriately, and with equally as much reason, call gravitation 'Newtonism,' because the principles of gravitation were first dearly demonstrated by the great philosopher Newton. Men had been fully conversant with the facts of gravitation for long ages before Newton was born. These facts had indeed been visible from the first days of creation, inasmuch as gravitation was one of the laws which God ordained for the governing of the universe. But the principles of gravitation were not fully known, and the far-reaching effects of its power and influence were not understood until they were discovered by Sir Isaac Newton. So, too, was it with what men call Calvinism. The inherent principles of it had been in existence for long ages before Calvin was born. They had indeed been visible as patent factors in the world's history from the time of man's creation. But inasmuch as it was Calvin who first formulated these principles into a more or less complete system, that system, or creed, if you will, and likewise those principles which are embodied in it, came to bear his name." [Calvinism, p. 2.] We may add further that the names Calvinist, Lutheran, Puritan, Pilgrim, Methodist, Baptist, and even the name Christian, were originally nicknames. But usage has established their validity and their meaning is well understood. The quality which gave such force to Calvin's teaching was his close adherence to the Bible as an inspired and authoritative book. He has been referred to as preeminently the biblical theologian of his age. Where the Bible led, there he went; where it failed him, there he stopped short. This refusal to go beyond what is written, coupled with a ready acceptance of what the Bible did teach, gave an air of finality and positiveness to his declarations which made them offensive to his critics. Because of his keen insight and power of logical development he has often been referred to as merely a speculative theologian. That he was a speculative genius of the first order is, of course, not to be denied; and in the cogency of his logical analysis he possessed a weapon which made him terrible to his enemies. But it was not on these gifts that he depended primarily when forming and developing his theological system. Calvin's active and powerful intellect led him to sound the depths of every subject which he touched. In his investigations about God and the plan of redemption he went very far, penetrating into mysteries concerning which the average man seldom if ever dreams. He brought to light a side of Scripture which had as yet been very much in the shade and stressed those deep truths which in the ages preceding the Reformation had comparatively escaped notice in the Church. He brought to light forgotten doctrines of the apostle Paul, and fastened them in their full and complete sense upon one great branch of the Christian Church. This doctrine of Predestination has perhaps raised a greater storm of opposition, and has doubtless been more misrepresented and caricatured, than any other doctrine in the Scriptures. "To mention it before some," says Warburton, "is like shaking the proverbial red flag before an enraged bull. It arouses the fiercest passions of their nature, and brings forth a torrent of abuse and calumny. But, because men have fought against it, or because they hate it, or perhaps misunderstand it, is no reasonable or logical cause why we should turn the doctrine adrift, or cast it behind our backs. The real question, the all-important question, is not: How do men receive it? but, Is it true?" [Calvinism, p. 23.] One reason why many people, even supposedly educated people, are so quick to reject the doctrine of Predestination is because of pure ignorance of what the doctrine really is and of what the Bible teaches in regard to it. This ignorance is not at all surprising when one considers the almost complete lack of Bible training in our day. A careful study of the Bible would convince many people that it is a very different book than they assume it to be. The tremendous influence which this doctrine has exerted in the history of Europe and America should at least entitle it to a respectful hearing.

Furthermore, we submit that according to all the laws of reason and logic a person has no right to deny the truth of a doctrine without first having studied in an unprejudiced manner the evidence on both sides.

ichuka:

Hmmm,
Just found you aren't a believer.because it will be a bit difficult for you to grasp these things.
Because the bible is the word of God,and His Words are spirit.nean to understand it one must be in the spirit.
Wanted to discuss Galatians 3:15-22 with you. but since you aren't "in" it will result to arguments.

An2elect2:
Thread derailed

menxer:


that is because the predestination which this thread sets out to discuss predestinated the derailment.

menxer:


that is because the predestination which this thread sets out to discuss predestinated the derailment.

5solas:
It is not derailed though. @An2elect Make your comments on the chapter and let's move on. The focus should be on the book!

An2elect2:
Ya we have derailed enough o chai!

5solas:

The author defines his purpose.He is not saying anything new. Only to give witness that Calvinism-the system that affirms salvation CANNOT be lost is TRUE!Another name for it, he says, is the Reformed Faith.This is the faith of the reformers. They didn't believe salvation could be lost.Calvinism is also synonymous with,"Once Saved, Always Saved",the doctrine of the "Perseverance of the Saints", "Eternal Security", the "Doctrine of Grace, e.t.c



The writer asserts that the doctrine of predestination is given so little attention (in his day). It is even less so now. He asserts the importance of this doctrine which the early reformers were all at one with though they had their disagreements.He states that it was in the creeds of all Protestants. It is in the creeds still of some churches which teach against Calvinism. The creeds of the early Protestants was Calvinistic. In contrast to Calvinism, Armnianism existed as a heresy for centuries!
Arminianism is the view that a believer CAN lose salvation. It existed for centuries as a heresy! It was not championed by an organised church until 1784!Imagine that!


All notable Christians believed in Predestination and were Calvinistic in their theology.
He goes on to commend Calvin for his work on predestination. He also notes rhat Calvinism is not about Calvin but the gospel.