LordReed:


1. Depends on what you mean by out of itself. Isotopes of elements are virtually created from theirself.

2. The source of everything cannot be the source of itself so its not the source of everything.

1. How

2. It can

9inches:
Do the particles exist outside the universe that has cause?

They come into existence without an apparent cause even in the deadest of space vacuums.

9inches:
I believe it was always in existence. Amen.

And that's ok. For you. But unless you plan on having brains washed with what you believe you must understand that it may not be so for everyone else, and perhaps wonder, why?

budaatum:
This is a difficult question! My first instinct is to say, Yes, "anything that has a beginning cannot create itself". A creator must create anything that has been created.

I'm just glad you never said "everything that exists must be created".

9inches question was:
Do you agree the following is a true statement, "anything that has a beginning cannot create itself"?

So are you accepting and agreeing with him that anything that has a beginning cannot create itself when you replied with:
"first instinct is to say, Yes, "anything that has a beginning cannot create itself".

budaatum:
No. The creator of anything with a beginning must also have a beginning! How else could it possibly come into existence if it did not at one point in time come in to existence?

And don't give me "it was always in existence", unless you precede it with "I believe"?

9inches:
I believe it was always in existence. Amen.

budaatum, the Creator has no beginning and has no end. The Creator is self existent. The Creator exist independently of other things and/or causes. The Creator causes, permits, authorises, gives power to, influences other things to emerge, appear and become visible. Things come about, things come into being, things come to light, things surface and present themselves through and/or because of the blessing, intelligence, knowledge, wisdom, influence , permission and power of the Creator. Nothing exists and/or could exist without the knowledge of the Creator (i.e. even sin, that turned up in Satan first, when in heaven the same sin that desired to have and had Adam on earth)

9inches:

1. How

2. It can

1. For example beta decay of boron18 to boron17.

2. How?

LordReed:


They come into existence without an apparent cause even in the deadest of space vacuums.

How did that happen?

9inches:
How did that happen?

Its uncaused.

budaatum:

And that's ok. For you. But unless you plan on having brains washed with what you believe you must understand that it may not be so for everyone else, and perhaps wonder, why?

Wonder why everybody doesn't believe in absolute truth? We keep spreading the good word to "everyone else".

LordReed:


Its uncaused.

You won't get anywhere with all these.
Even the tinniest particles are Forms of Existence.
Forms of Existence are not and will never be logically amazing.
It is this beauty you also see in the stars,planets,asteroids, and other cosmic systems that makes this guy confident and ever-ready to propose creationism.
What you call order in the Universe is what I call nonsense because it doesn't suggest logic and it functions pointlessly.
Reality is a bitch.
And the Possibility of Spirit/7dimensional realms is nothing but a 'declarification'.
WORDS are also 'declarifications'.

MuttleyLaff:
9inches question was:
Do you agree the following is a true statement, "anything that has a beginning cannot create itself"?

So are you accepting and agreeing with him that anything that has a beginning cannot create itself when you replied with:
"first instinct is to say, Yes, "anything that has a beginning cannot create itself".

I said it was a difficult one. And since we'd very likely argue where the beginning is, you might see my dilemma. Take humans for instance. The beginning of the human race according to some Christians would be [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1%3A26-31&version=NKJV]Mankind[/url]. But some will argue it was when God [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+2%3A4-7&version=NKJV]breathed into his nostrils the breath of life[/url]. Then I, with my you know mes, would throw in an ape and call you a baboon and all hell would break loose. You might see my dilemma.

And then there's the obvious fact that all things that exist, whether created or not, have a beginning. In fact, one can very easily trace the development of your God Yahweh to it's beginnings, (and do note this capital for your god is the very last one!)

Yes. Everything that has a beginning has not created itself. Everything that exists evolves (you may read that as 'exists') from what preceeded it. There is nothing to suggest an evolver or pre-existor had any part to play in it since its only function is time, and, environment, to a pretty large extent.

MuttleyLaff:
budaatum, the Creator has no beginning and has no end. The Creator is self existent. The Creator exist independently of other things and/or causes. The Creator causes, permits, authorises, gives power to, influences other things to emerge, appear and become visible. Things come about, things come into being, things come to light, things surface and present themselves through and/or because of the blessing, intelligence, knowledge, wisdom, influence , permission and power of the Creator. Nothing exists and/or could exist without the knowledge of the Creator (i.e. even sin, that turned up in Satan first, when in heaven the same sin that desired to have and had Adam on earth)

And as a belief, you might see benefit, but for the advancement of knowledge and the betterment of an ever increasing world? All I see is poverty, and exploitation and squalor in such beliefs. You experience this in your argument with your fellow believers on homosexuality. They too believe as assuredly as you believe that they are right.

Muttley, Is it not righteous to understand than obediently believe? Did not Jesus prescribe a balanced diet?

"The Big Bang" is just a banging theory but Religion is a compilation of theoretical disasters

9inches:
Wonder why everybody doesn't believe in absolute truth? We keep spreading the good word to "everyone else".

Can someone please post some links where "absolute truth" has been flogged please. Though to be honest with you, 9inches, you should go and do some research.

Meanwhile, if there truly was an "absolute truth", and it was good, what makes you think you would be the one to have it to spread?

Is it because you believe more than others?

HellVictorinho:

You won't get anywhere with all these.
Even the tinniest particles are Forms of Existence.
Forms of Existence are not and will never be logically amazing.
It is this beauty you also see in the stars,planets,asteroids, and other cosmic systems that makes this guy confident and ever-ready to propose creationism.
What you call order in the Universe is what I call nonsense because it doesn't suggest logic and it functions pointlessly.
Reality is a bitch.
And the Possibility of Spirit/7dimensional realms is nothing but a 'declarification'.
WORDS are also 'declarifications'.

What does declarification mean?

For anyone willing to upgrade their beliefs to a bit more modern ones, here is a free pdf of Stephen Hawkings A Brief History of Time to download.

The devil is the lord of ignorance!

budaatum:
For anyone willing to upgrade their beliefs to a bit more modern ones, here is a free pdf of Stephen Hawkings A Brief History of Time to dowload.
The devil is the lord of ignorance!

Very aptly put

LordReed:


Its uncaused.

Where did you get that?

budaatum:

Can someone please post some links where "absolute truth" has been flogged please. Though to be honest with you, 9inches, you should go and do some research.

Meanwhile, if there truly was an "absolute truth", and it was good, what makes you think you would be the one to have it to spread?

Is it because you believe more than others?

What do you mean by "where absolute truth has been flogged" and what do you think I should research on?

I wonder what you think absolute truth is. Does truth have to be good or bad?

HellVictorinho:
"The Big Bang" is just a banging theory but Religion is a compilation of theoretical disasters

Out of curiosity, do you know who Jordan Peterson is?

budaatum:

And as a belief, you might see benefit, but for the advancement of knowledge and the betterment of an ever increasing world? All I see is poverty, and exploitation and squalor in such beliefs. You experience this in your argument with your fellow believers on homosexuality. They too believe as assuredly as you believe that they are right.

Muttley, Is it not righteous to understand than obediently believe?

Where do you think the drive/hunger for knowledge and the betterment of the world come from? And what makes you think what people say is what they act out? You think if someone says "I believe", that's just it - he simply believes?

Do you understand everything before you believe?

LordReed:


What does declarification mean?

Anything described as possible thereby making it illogical to appreciate reality considering the absurdity of the existential significance of the possibility.
The existential significance refers to the consequences of the manner in which certain things must occur/function.
There are three declarifications.
And they all de-clarify.
First,"Words" are verbal expressions of human thoughts and feelings.
But the use of "Words" by humans has resulted in consequences that have affected humans greatly.
Man's pathetic state suggests confusion/disorder as regards the implication of the use of "Words" by humans.
But,more words are added to the 'Human Dictionary' as frequently as possible and humans are seemingly bound to function consequently based on the definitions of these "Words" by humans.
Secondly,the "human sexual behavior" keeps the possibility of Man's multiplication in actuality.
Yet,Man's condition as regards his identity and the events that make it impossible to ascribe meaning to Man's functions remain significant thereby causing Man to be in a state which suggests the influence of obscure absurdities.
Lastly,the "Possibility of Spirit/7D-Realms" has mattered in the affairs of Man due to Religion and Mind Projection.
But,if there is an afterlife, it can only verify that Man is screwed by his Nature-even spiritually.
These realms are only made possible to humans by imagination or psychologically induced processes when humans are alive.
Yet,we can't rule out the Utopian desire of endless youth and endless joy in humans.
But,the Human Behavior won't allow the latter even in the face of human eternity.
So,humans can only act appropriately when they don't give regard to supposedly superior beings considering the insignificance of these beings to their development.
Whoever exists in whatever superior realm can't be of anything worth human consideration.
Man as a spirit and as a person interacting with the super-natural can only prove that he is most unfortunately an expression of pre-determined absurdity.
And it will be critically stupid to assume that there are beings capable of interacting with humans despite the fact that humans can't interact with them practically.
If there is Super Nature,it can only describe the Form of Existence that encompasses all the properties of an advanced Nature.
The Beings therein won't be of any significance to humans.
And humans,even as spirits,won't find their involvement with this Super Forms of Existence anything but the beginning of a 'Predetermined Debacle'.
It will also be critically stupid to assume that this Super Forms of Existence are GODS/ALIENS.
For all that matters,they must have a beginning as Beings though they need not end since they need not reproduce.
They are just living super-occurrences capable of making complex sounds.

budaatum:
I said it was a difficult one. And since we'd very likely argue where the beginning is, you might see my dilemma. Take humans for instance. The beginning of the human race according to some Christians would be Mankind. But some will argue it was when God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. Then I, with my you know mes, would throw in an ape and call you a baboon and all hell would break loose. You might see my dilemma.

It is an easily resolvable dilemna, if/when you define the beginning you're discussing. Is it the beginning of when creation man was a thought deliberated in the Godhood budaatum?

budaatum:
And then there's the obvious fact that all things that exist, whether created or not, have a beginning. In fact, one can very easily trace the development of your God Yahweh to it's beginnings, (and do note this capital for your god is the very last one!)

This unusual and rare goodwill gesture of yours, propercasing or capitalising first letter of the word god I can proudly say has not gone unnoticed. I have whilst the ink was wet organised to commission a portrait showcasing it. Thank you very much budaatum. Muchas gracias!

From the Jewish perspective, God, is and can be known as Yahweh.

budaatum:
Yes. Everything that has a beginning has not created itself. Everything that exists evolves (you may read that as 'exists') from what preceeded it. There is nothing to suggest an evolver or pre-existor had any part to play in it since its only function is time, and, environment, to a pretty large extent.

God is Eternal. He created time and so personally is not affected by the passage of time. God has no beginning nor end, that's how and why He is self-existent. God exists above and independently of other gods

All things came into being through God, and without God not even one thing came into being that has come into being. God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can't see, things such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world. Everything was created through God and for God. Ex nihilo is God's speciality and pastime budaatum.

budaatum:
And as a belief, you might see benefit, but for the advancement of knowledge and the betterment of an ever increasing world? All I see is poverty, and exploitation and squalor in such beliefs. You experience this in your argument with your fellow believers on homosexuality. They too believe as assuredly as you believe that they are right.

I am not sure who you ascribe what "your fellow believers" to be, besides that it is about who is right on homosexuality, but rather it is about the right thing about homosexuality, it is about what, about what is right and not who is right or they are right budaatum

budaatum:
Muttley, Is it not righteous to understand than obediently believe? Did not Jesus prescribe a balanced diet?

buddatum, you absolutely nailed it on the head, though we already have been made the righteousness of God in Jesus, it still is a good thing to fulfill all other righteousness. Of course dear friend budaatum, Jesus did prescribe a balanced diet, but remember that it is by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, how I wished he obediently believed even though he might not immediately understand why not to eat and the complex and/or unwelcome consequence of the action and event

budaatum:
For anyone willing to upgrade their beliefs to a bit more modern ones, here is a free pdf of Stephen Hawkings A Brief History of Time to download.

The devil is the lord of ignorance!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-yx5WN4efo

9inches:
Where did you get that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UemhCsaeGgc

He doesn't say they are uncaused but you can infer it.

MuttleyLaff:
how I wished he obediently believed even though he might not immediately understand why not to eat and the complex and/or unwelcome consequence of the action and event

I need you to abandon this slavery nonsense, muttley. No gods are asking you not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil today, and in fact, when it is said that ye must seek first the Kingdom of God, understanding is a key element in the search, if not the 'first' in it. Besides, Jesus was crucified because he was not obedient, or are you only planning to follow him to the [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+22%3A54-62&version=ESV]Peter Point[/url]?

Let me know when we are going out. You need to pay for your isiewu.

9inches:
Where do you think the drive/hunger for knowledge and the betterment of the world come from? And what makes you think what people say is what they act out? You think if someone says "I believe", that's just it - he simply believes?

Do you understand everything before you believe?

Yes 9inches. When people say they believe, that is just it - they simply believe, and without really thinking about or understanding or considering any alternative to what they believe.

And yes, I must understand before I believe. Believing what one does not understand implies childhoodness, which one is not anymore, and stupidity, in an adult - neither of which buda is.

9inches:
What do you mean by "where absolute truth has been flogged" and what do you think I should research on?

I wonder what you think absolute truth is. Does truth have to be good or bad?

The truth does not have to be good or bad. The truth is simply validity, as in, it corresponds to fact.

As to research, try the first chapter of Brief History, Truth and [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universality_%28philosophy%29?wprov=sfla1]wiki[/url].

9inches:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-yx5WN4efo

He accuses atheist of nothing from nothing belief. Did this thread not start with that idea being debunked? Are you in fact, not the one claiming some creator came from nothing preceeding it!? Is the argument not that something always precedes something?

LordReed:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UemhCsaeGgc

He doesn't say they are uncaused but you can infer it.

You made me use my work time to scrutinize this your video more closely.

According to your prof Lawrence Krauss:

1. Empty Space/Dark Void is nothing because it contains nothing.

2. Empty Space/Dark Void is a boiling bubbling brew of virtual particles popping in and out of existence at every moment.

3. After a while of continuous popping in and out of existence by these bubbling brew of virtual particles, Space and Time was formed!

Please tell me if I mischaracterized anything here.

NB: I agree with him, laws of quantum mechanics doesn't form anything here as it is just a theory borne out of observation. So it has no physical impact here. However, Krauss did make mention of gravitational force.

Hmmm...

9inches:

You made me use my work time to scrutinize this your video more closely.

According to your prof Lawrence Krauss:

1. Empty Space/Dark Void is nothing because it contains nothing.

2. Empty Space/Dark Void is a boiling bubbling brew of virtual particles popping in and out of existence at every moment.

3. After a while of continuous popping in and out of existence by these bubbling brew of virtual particles, Space and Time was formed!

Please tell me if I mischaracterized anything here.

NB: I agree with him, laws of quantum mechanics doesn't form anything here as it is just a theory borne out of observation. So it has no physical impact here. However, Krauss did make mention of gravitational force.


Hmmm...

Time can't be formed.

9inches:
Out of curiosity, do you know who Jordan Peterson is?

Who is he?

9inches:

You made me use my work time to scrutinize this your video more closely.

According to your prof Lawrence Krauss:

1. Empty Space/Dark Void is nothing because it contains nothing.

2. Empty Space/Dark Void is a boiling bubbling brew of virtual particles popping in and out of existence at every moment.

3. After a while of continuous popping in and out of existence by these bubbling brew of virtual particles, Space and Time was formed!

Please tell me if I mischaracterized anything here.

NB: I agree with him, laws of quantum mechanics doesn't form anything here as it is just a theory borne out of observation. So it has no physical impact here. However, Krauss did make mention of gravitational force.

Hmmm...

3. He doesn't say this was definitely how the universe came about but that this could have been a mechanism to bring it about. Besides these are occurring at quantum levels which do not translate to the same effect at the macro level.

MuttleyLaff:
we already have been made the righteousness of God in Jesus, it still is a good thing to fulfill all other righteousness.

Oh, no you don't already have any righteousness of God in Jesus"! For it is written, "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven", and to those who don't, "I will tell you plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’" And they will incur huge dental bills!