shadeyinka:

Translations are not usually done "literally": they are done contextually. Plain meaning mean contextually meaning.

All translations of Arabic into English language are done contextually and hence the Qur'an is not an exception

So why talk about plain meaning?

true2god:
This is very lame and arrogant excuse. There is no any language, in this modern era, that can never be translated to another language. If this is the official policy of Islam with respect to the Arabic quran then the Arabs should not tell us that Islam is a religion for all. Over 80% of muslims cannot speak Arabic and so, by your own submission, Muslims must learn Arabic in order to understand the quran. This is purely brainwashing and mental slavery! The truth is that the quran, if translated to Yoruba language, will make no sense to any Yoruba man since there will be no Yoruba hadith or Yoruba seerah to clear up the confusions and inconsistencies in the quran.

you are a known bigot. I didn't say Arabic in itself can not be translated. I said Quran can not be translated. Quran is the word of Allah. You can not translate Allah's word. You can only explain it. The moment you translate from arabic Quran it loses the ingredients and authenticity. That's why, if you read English quran or other language, your are only reading the "translations of the meaning".

This is why we can not pray daily salat in language other than language of The Quran. And because Quran is in Arabic does not mean all Arabs understood it. No. You can not translate God's words. You may only explain the meanings. But the translated meanings are sufficient for us to get things done.

Rashduct4luv:



So why talk about plain meaning?

Plain meaning means that which convey the regular meaning: without having to extrapolate and perform acrobatic acts of word twisting like some are prone to doing when reading the holy Qur'an

Empiree:
Oh really?. I have heard enough of this. You know Islam now than I do but backtracked?. If you know Islam more than I do you would be Muslim by now. Your argument is not unique at all. We will keep going on rollercoaster about this is the reason I don't even wanna engage you. I know you have it all copied from those evangelical Christians. That's why I am simply not interested in this back and forth.

For record, Quran was revealed to Nabi Muhammad through Jibril(as).

I maintain not true. I didn't copy this from anywhere. It was one of those things I figured out a long time ago when A Moslem like you told me that unlike the Bible which contains a mixture the words of prophets, sinners and God, the Qur'an contain only the pure words of Allah!

Ahmed Deedat: you remember that South African Muslim apologist was my mentor then. He rubbished Christianity so much that the little faith I had then shook.

However, It was the Qur'an that led me back to Christ!

I was seeking the truth!
I counted the cost!
At the last moment, my eyes were opened.

So, my dear I can chat with you on Islam without copy/paste of internet texts.

shadeyinka:

I maintain not true. I didn't copy this from anywhere. It was one of those things I figured out a long time ago when A Moslem like you told me that unlike the Bible which contains a mixture the words of prophets, sinners and God, the Qur'an contain only the pure words of Allah!

Ahmed Deedat: you remember that South African Muslim apologist was my mentor then. He rubbished Christianity so much that the little faith I had then shook.

However, It was the Qur'an that led me back to Christ!

I was seeking the truth!
I counted the cost!
At the last moment, my eyes were opened.

So, my dear I can chat with you on Islam without copy/paste of internet texts.

This things you said here are emotional outburst to garner emotional support. You didnt say anything. Quran was revealed by Allah to prophet Muhammad(saw) through Jubril(as). Word for word. And you "perfectly" answered your questions when i posted your "Thy Lord's prayer". Quran is word of Allah.

Empiree:
This things you said here are emotional outburst to garner emotional support. You didnt say anything. Quran was revealed by Allah to prophet Muhammad(saw) through Jubril(as). Word for word. And you "perfectly" answered your questions when i posted your "Thy Lord's prayer". Quran is word of Allah.

I agree with you. The Qur'an is the words of "Allah" not Jehovah.
And that is why:



1. (Quran 113:1)
Allah take refuge with the Lord of the Dawn



2. Quran 6:104)
Now have come to you, from your Lord, proofs
(To open your eyes): If any will see, it will
be for (the good of) his own soul; If any will
be blind, it will be to his own (harm): Allah is not
(here) To watch over your doings.

3. (Quran 27:91)
Allah has been commanded to serve the
Lord of this city, Him Who has sanctified it
and to whom (Belong) all things; and Allah is
commanded to be of those who bow in Islam to
Allah's Will

4. (Quran 84:16-19)
Allah swear by the afterglow of sunset, and by the night, and by the moon when she is at the full.

shadeyinka:

I agree with you. The Qur'an is the words of "Allah" not Jehovah.
And that is why:



1. (Quran 113:1)
Allah take refuge with the Lord of the Dawn



2. Quran 6:104)
Now have come to you, from your Lord, proofs
(To open your eyes): If any will see, it will
be for (the good of) his own soul; If any will
be blind, it will be to his own (harm): Allah is not
(here) To watch over your doings.

3. (Quran 27:91)
Allah has been commanded to serve the
Lord of this city, Him Who has sanctified it
and to whom (Belong) all things; and Allah is
commanded to be of those who bow in Islam to
Allah's Will

4. (Quran 84:16-19)
Allah swear by the afterglow of sunset, and by the night, and by the moon when she is at the full.

cry baby. Allah is God. Some of your fellow christian wont even agree with you on "Jehovah" mtcheew

Empiree:
cry baby. Allah is God. Some of your fellow christian wont even agree with you on "Jehovah" mtcheew

I am just putting "Allah" in your Qur'an so that you know that it doesn't fit in those texts. In fact, absurd!

shadeyinka:

I am just putting "Allah" in your Qur'an so that you know that it doesn't fit in those texts. In fact, absurd!

You are already added to my list of bigots. I smelled your bigotry from far. Thats why i didnt wanna waste my time with explanation bcuz your mind was already made up before you got here.

Empiree:
You are already added to my list of bigots. I smelled your bigotry from far. Thats why i didnt wanna waste my time with explanation bcuz your mind was already made up before you got here.

Why do you like using double standards.

When you interpret the Bible, you go with the plain meaning of the texts however whenever you are required to do the same with the Qur'an, you whip up excuses and sentiments.

Don't forget that the genesis of everything was an unfounded claim that "all the words of the Qur'an are direct words of Allah" unlike the Bible. I have given at least five ayas with no rebuttal except manifestation of escapist tendencies.

shadeyinka:

Why do you like using double standards.

When you interpret the Bible, you go with the plain meaning of the texts however whenever you are required to do the same with the Qur'an, you whip up excuses and sentiments.

Don't forget that the genesis of everything was an unfounded claim that "all the words of the Qur'an are direct words of Allah" unlike the Bible. I have given at least five ayas with no rebuttal except manifestation of escapist tendencies.

You are a small evangelist to take on me. I dealt with fellow CHRISTIANs who know more than you 4-5yrs ago right here in this platform. And you expect me to go over everything again?. No.


@bold, the simple reason for this is bcus, the foundation on which CHRISTIANITY stands is very shallow and substandard. This paves ways for possible criticisms.

The foundation I am talking about are the tenets of your religion. No Christians have been able to align the dots and explain obvious differences in your Bible is the reason for distortion. For example, if you put 3 CHRISTIANs next to each other and ask them who is Jesus?. You are gonna get different answers. For this reason, no sane human would take your religion serious except for worldly gain.

Empiree:
You are a small evangelist to take on me. I dealt with fellow CHRISTIANs who know more than you 4-5yrs ago right here in this platform. And you expect me to go over everything again?. No.


@bold, the simple reason for this is bcus, the foundation on which CHRISTIANITY stands is very shallow and substandard. This paves ways for possible criticisms.

The foundation I am talking about are the tenets of your religion. No Christians have been able to align the dots and explain obvious differences in your Bible is the reason for distortion. For example, if you put 3 CHRISTIANs next to each other and ask them who is Jesus?. You are gonna get different answers. For this reason, no sane human would take your religion serious except for worldly gain.

Are you implying that you concur to the fact that other words different from that of Allah exist in the Qur'an?

shadeyinka:

Are you implying that you concur to the fact that other words different from that of Allah exist in the Qur'an?

what other word?. Listen, I am ahead of you in all respect. Dont even think you can outsmart me. I have been in the game for 15yrs.

Empiree:
what other word?. Listen, I am ahead of you in all respect. Dont even think you can outsmart me. I have been in the game for 15yrs.

Ok, Mr experience!
NL is a faceless board. What is there to gain in outsmarting anybody?

Empiree:
what other word?. Listen, I am ahead of you in all respect. Dont even think you can outsmart me. I have been in the game for 15yrs.

MR. Empiree,
You seem not to have answered the question asked.
That portion of the koran clearly show that Allah is not
the one speaking there.
Resorting to some esoteric explanation does not do justice
to the matter.
Christian Prince has shown very clearly these flaws in the koran.
Refusal to face the truth does not remove the truth. It only makes
such a person, in the words of Christian Prince, to be an Abdul.

sagenaija:

MR. Empiree,
You seem not to have answered the question asked.
That portion of the koran clearly show that Allah is not
the one speaking there.
Resorting to some esoteric explanation does not do justice
to the matter.
Christian Prince has shown very clearly these flaws in the koran.
Refusal to face the truth does not remove the truth. It only makes
such a person, in the words of Christian Prince, to be an Abdul.

I am trying to diagnose your problem. You posted several verses and i showed you your "Thy Lord's prayer" and since then you have been at my throat. Now, highlight your question again where you said Allah is not the one speaking?

Empiree:
I am trying to diagnose your problem. You posted several verses and i showed you your "Thy Lord's prayer" and since then you have been at my throat. Now, highlight your question again where you said Allah is not the one speaking?

You are mistaken. I was pointing out that you did not answer the questions Shadeyinka asked.

This is what he said:

Since you are so impatient:

Sura1:1-7 who was speaking here?
vs2. Who is the one ascribing praise to Allah? Mohammed, Jubril or one of the Caliphs

vs5. Who is the one worshiping Allah here?

vs6. I believe only a mortal or a jinn need fear the punishment that comes from going astray or what do you think? Is the Almighty Allah afraid of doing wrong to Himself?

vs6. Since God cannot go on a wrong path, who does this aya refer to?

vs7. Who is the THOU in ayat7?
Or the Thee an Thine in vs5

In case you need a jog

Quran1:1-7
1. In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
2. Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
3. Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
4. Master of the Day of Judgment.
5. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
6. Show us the straight way,
7. The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

He also said:

I agree with you. The Qur'an is the words of "Allah" not Jehovah.
And that is why:



1. (Quran 113:1)
Allah take refuge with the Lord of the Dawn



2. Quran 6:104)
Now have come to you, from your Lord, proofs
(To open your eyes): If any will see, it will
be for (the good of) his own soul; If any will
be blind, it will be to his own (harm): Allah is not
(here) To watch over your doings.

3. (Quran 27:91)
Allah has been commanded to serve the
Lord of this city, Him Who has sanctified it
and to whom (Belong) all things; and Allah is
commanded to be of those who bow in Islam to
Allah's Will

4. (Quran 84:16-19)
Allah swear by the afterglow of sunset, and by the night, and by the moon when she is at the full.

What do you say to these?

shadeyinka:

Plain meaning means that which convey the regular meaning: without having to extrapolate and perform acrobatic acts of word twisting like some are prone to doing when reading the holy Qur'an

Our Qur'an is not like any other Book that has been translated, retranslated and the original language documents lost. A Language is prone to changes over time! We understand Islam and Qur'an the way it was understood by the companions of the Messenger of Allah!

This is the Islamic tradition that the Christians lost together with the revealed Book of Gospel.

Rashduct4luv:


Our Qur'an is not like any other Book that has been translated, retranslated and the original language documents lost. A Language is prone to changes over time! We understand Islam and Qur'an the way it was understood by the companions of the Messenger of Allah!

This is the Islamic tradition that the Christians lost together with the revealed Book of Gospel.

Are you sure the original language documents of the Bible are lost? How about the original language documents of the Qur'an?

In other words, you require a different yardstick of judgement where you determine the rules. Do you apply the same rules to the other religions?

You are quick to judge the English translations of the Bible according to the plain English meanings (forgetting that English is just one of the several thousand languages of which the Bible has been translated).

Fairness and unbiasedness require that if you wouldn't treat the translations of the Qur'an as perfect, why would you not go to the Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek copies of the Scriptures to make judgements against the Bible. It is fair that we use the same rules.

However, you and I know that it is a lame excuse that a language is not translatable.
You are allowed to do:
Literal translations
Poetic Translations
Conveyed meaning translations

Even complex proverbs are translatable with words by experts versed in both languages.

If an original speaker of a language cannot explain to another phrases in his own language to another person, then the language must be extremely primitive and arcaic in all ramifications. I am sure Arabic is not a primitive language.

Finally, less than 5% of the over 40 English translations of the Qur'an are done by none Muslims. And of the Muslims, the translators are either scholars or an institution of scholars. The argument of improper translation is very very weak.

Is Islam for Arab nations alone?

shadeyinka:

I agree with you. The Qur'an is the words of "Allah" not Jehovah.
And that is why:



1. (Quran 113:1)

Let us now expose your ignorance or mistakes here!

Firstly, Allah chooses to communicate His messages the way He wills.

Mistake No 1

(Quran 113:1) Actually begins with the Arabic word ''Qul" which means "Say" so the actual translation is "Say: i seek Refuge with (Allah) the Lord of the daybreak.

shadeyinka:

Mistake No 2

2. Quran 6:104)
Now have come to you, from your Lord, proofs
(To open your eyes): If any will see, it will
be for (the good of) his own soul; If any will
be blind, it will be to his own (harm): Allah is not
(here) To watch over your doings.

Qur'an 2 vs 104 is translated as "Verily, proofs has come to you from your Lord, so whosoever sees, will do so for(the good of) his ownself, and whosoever blinds himself, will do so to his own harm and i(Muhammad salallahu alayhi wasalam) am not a watcher over you."

shadeyinka:

Mistake No 3

3. (Quran 27:91)
Allah has been commanded to serve the
Lord of this city, Him Who has sanctified it
and to whom (Belong) all things; and Allah is
commanded to be of those who bow in Islam to
Allah's Will

I (Muhammad SAW) have been commanded only to worship the Lord of this city (Makkah), Him Who has sanctified it and His is everything. And I am commanded to be from among the Muslims (those who submit to Allah in Islam).

shadeyinka:

Allah has power to do all things
4. (Quran 84:16-19)
Allah swear by the afterglow of sunset, and by the night, and by the moon when she is at the full.

It is a common rule in Islam that Muslims swear by Allah only but Allah swears by any of His creations...

shadeyinka:

Are you sure the original language documents of the Bible are lost? How about the original language documents of the Qur'an?

In other words, you require a different yardstick of judgement where you determine the rules. Do you apply the same rules to the other religions?

You are quick to judge the English translations of the Bible according to the plain English meanings (forgetting that English is just one of the several thousand languages of which the Bible has been translated).

Fairness and unbiasedness require that if you wouldn't treat the translations of the Qur'an as perfect, why would you not go to the Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek copies of the Scriptures to make judgements against the Bible. It is fair that we use the same rules.

However, you and I know that it is a lame excuse that a language is not translatable.
You are allowed to do:
Literal translations
Poetic Translations
Conveyed meaning translations

Even complex proverbs are translatable with words by experts versed in both languages.

If an original speaker of a language cannot explain to another phrases in his own language to another person, then the language must be extremely primitive and arcaic in all ramifications. I am sure Arabic is not a primitive language.

Finally, less than 5% of the over 40 English translations of the Qur'an are done by none Muslims. And of the Muslims, the translators are either scholars or an institution of scholars. The argument of improper translation is very very weak.

Is Islam for Arab nations alone?

Before i proceed i would like to ask few Questions:

1. Is the original Gospel revealed to Jesus in his mother tongue still in existence?

2. What was Jesus's original name and Language and does the language still exist today?

3. If your answer to 1 above is in the affirmative can you tell us more about the document's age and location now.

Rashduct4luv:


Let us now expose your ignorance or mistakes here!

Firstly, Allah chooses to communicate His messages the way He wills.

Mistake No 1

(Quran 113:1) Actually begins with the Arabic word ''Qul" which means "Say" so the actual translation is "Say: i seek Refuge with (Allah) the Lord of the daybreak.


Qur'an 2 vs 104 is translated as "Verily, proofs has come to you from your Lord, so whosoever sees, will do so for(the good of) his ownself, and whosoever blinds himself, will do so to his own harm and i(Muhammad salallahu alayhi wasalam) am not a watcher over you."



I (Muhammad SAW) have been commanded only to worship the Lord of this city (Makkah), Him Who has sanctified it and His is everything. And I am commanded to be from among the Muslims (those who submit to Allah in Islam).



It is a common rule in Islam that Muslims swear by Allah only but Allah swears by any of His creations...

If I understand you well, you are hiding under the fact that some Qur'anic verses start with the word 'Qul" which on English means "Say". Let's for now assume you are correct.

Unfortunately, the first quote I have had given has no "say" before it. Qur'an 1:1-7 the al fathia is a beautiful prayer but since the Sura doesn't start with "say" like you have argued, we can assume it wasn't Allah speaking. The question is , if it wasn't Allah, whose voice was that in the Qur'an...Jubril, Mohammed...

About swearing:
Jehovah and Allah seems to be different.

Whereas Allah can swear with anything, the God for the people of the Book cannot swear by anything except Himself. You will find no such verse in the scriptures.

Hebrews 6:13-14
For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, saying, "I WILL
SURELY BLESS YOU AND I WILL SURELY MULTIPLY YOU."

We normally swear by that which is greater than ourselves. That is why our people will swear by their gods AND not by cocoyam or akamu.

Only Muslims don't see that it was Mohammed swearing for himself as common among Arabs of those days. Just like a Yoruba man will swear by Ogun while biting a metal.

Rashduct4luv:


Before i proceed i would like to ask few Questions:

1. Is the original Gospel revealed to Jesus in his mother tongue still in existence?

2. What was Jesus's original name and Language and does the language still exist today?

3. If your answer to 1 above is in the affirmative can you tell us more about the document's age and location now.

1. The Gospel isn't a book, neither was it "revealed" to Jesus.
The Gospel is a Message. The message is summarised as "Gods Love and His Gift" to man.
2. Jesus name is transliterated as Yehoshua. And in Israel at the time of Jesus, they spoke Hebrew (mainly on the synagogue), Aramaic and Greek as language of Commerce.
3. Since Jesus wasn't "given" a book, this is irrelevant. If you want to know about the gospels, they predate Islam and Prophet Mohammed by hundreds of years.

Is Islam for Arabs alone?

sagenaija:


You are mistaken. I was pointing out that you did not answer the questions Shadeyinka asked.

This is what he said:


He also said:


What do you say to these?

His questions are very simply and the reason I didn't wanna bother myself answering is bcus I know you guys well. This was the reason I gave him logical answer to ponder on when I posted The Lord's prayer. Don't you guys get it?.

However, since you insist on answering, I will. Just give me time to finish with task I am on and I will get back.

Pending that time, what you guys don't understand is that surah fatihah was not the first revelation. And the more reason I refused to engage you guys is because you don't even understand your Bible and you wanna talk about Quran?. That's funny.

Will be right back

shadeyinka:

1. The Gospel isn't a book, neither was it "revealed" to Jesus.
The Gospel is a Message. The message is summarised as "Gods Love and His Gift" to man.
2. Jesus name is transliterated as Yehoshua. And in Israel at the time of Jesus, they spoke Hebrew (mainly on the synagogue), Aramaic and Greek as language of Commerce.
3. Since Jesus wasn't "given" a book, this is irrelevant. If you want to know about the gospels, they predate Islam and Prophet Mohammed by hundreds of years.

Is Islam for Arabs alone?

Alright, you believe the Gospel was not a Book and was not revealed to Jesus which is what we believe.
What is the Gospel that Jesus preached? Where is the Gospel that he preached?

To your Question:

Islam is for all as we believe all Prophets from Adam, Noah, Abraham, Lot, Solomon, David, Moses, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, Joseph, Jonah, Jesus,...., Muhammad are Muslims.

Empiree:
you are a known bigot. I didn't say Arabic in itself can not be translated. I said Quran can not be translated. Quran is the word of Allah. You can not translate Allah's word. You can only explain it. The moment you translate from arabic Quran it loses the ingredients and authenticity. That's why, if you read English quran or other language, your are only reading the "translations of the meaning".

You are mixing things up here as a result of excessive brainwashing. Your submission could have been 'the Quran should not be translated' instead of 'the quran cannot be translated'. There is no book that cannot be translated while retaining the context of the original language, unless you want to tell me that all Arab speakers are ignorant (of other languages) that they cannot do a good job of translatiing their quran to other languages. The issue is that you are merely using semantic to cover the inadequacies and inconsistencies in your quran. The submission you give now is one of the dumbest I have ever seen in my life.

Empiree:
This is why we can not pray daily salat in language other than language of The Quran. And because Quran is in Arabic does not mean all Arabs understood it. No. You can not translate God's words. You may only explain the meanings. But the translated meanings are sufficient for us to get things done.

The reason you cannot pray in other language is that if you do, the prayer will not make any sense to a crtitical mind of the person listening to it in his mother-tongue. And since many muslims do not even understand the meaning of the prayers, vis-a-vis Arab language itself, it is same parroting it to the gullble while they say 'AMIN' at the end. Your Al-fathia (the beginning, quran 1:1-7) is a great testimony to this fact. As a take away, who was speaking in quran 1:1-7? Is it Allah, Jibril or mohammed?

Empiree:
You are a small evangelist to take on me. I dealt with fellow CHRISTIANs who know more than you 4-5yrs ago right here in this platform. And you expect me to go over everything again?. No.


@bold, the simple reason for this is bcus, the foundation on which CHRISTIANITY stands is very shallow and substandard. This paves ways for possible criticisms.

The foundation I am talking about are the tenets of your religion. No Christians have been able to align the dots and explain obvious differences in your Bible is the reason for distortion. For example, if you put 3 CHRISTIANs next to each other and ask them who is Jesus?. You are gonna get different answers. For this reason, no sane human would take your religion serious except for worldly gain.

Islam also presented a more difficult dilemma here. The muslims major text document is not the quran (the quran is only a fraction of Islamic information) but the hadith. If you place 5 Islamic scholars side by side and read an ayah, they will all give a different meaning to it based on the finding they got from either the hadith or the seerah. While Christians even manage their doctrinal differences peacefully, the Muslims go after each other's throat as one will call the other kafir. Please don't even present the argument of which your religion is more guilty of. The buttom-line remains that no any religion that has a uniform belief and interpretation of their scriptures. And with respect to the validity of biblical writings, the bible (unlike the quran) has no central control in terms of production and distribution. The quran also has no surviving manuscript from the time of Uthman Ibn Affan to do a textual criticism of the quran by relating it to its source document. Why? The source document were burnt by Uthman. And note that the quran has 7 different reading of which the Hafs reading is the most popular. All other reading have slight differences from the most popular haf's reading.

Please do not make a case of which you are also a major offender.

shadeyinka:

I agree with you. The Qur'an is the words of "Allah" not Jehovah.
And that is why:



1. (Quran 113:1)
Allah take refuge with the Lord of the Dawn



2. Quran 6:104)
Now have come to you, from your Lord, proofs
(To open your eyes): If any will see, it will
be for (the good of) his own soul; If any will
be blind, it will be to his own (harm): Allah is not
(here) To watch over your doings.

3. (Quran 27:91)
Allah has been commanded to serve the
Lord of this city, Him Who has sanctified it
and to whom (Belong) all things; and Allah is
commanded to be of those who bow in Islam to
Allah's Will

4. (Quran 84:16-19)
Allah swear by the afterglow of sunset, and by the night, and by the moon when she is at the full.

sagenaija:


You are mistaken. I was pointing out that you did not answer the questions Shadeyinka asked.

?

As I said before, this criticism is baseless and would come only from one who has never studied the Qur’an with any serious thought, let alone sincere evaluation. I accused you of copy paste bcuz this is exactly how it is documented in evangelical christian websites like David Wood, James White, sam shamoun etc. And i think true2god or truth2man, mavisguy or ifeann posted same criticism years back. Now, the entire Qur’an, according to Muslim beliefs, is a revelation from Allah and hence is given to us, for us to recite. The first word revealed chronologically was iqra’ (Read! or Recite!), and so the rest of revelation follows as a recital for Muslims.

The Fatiha is a summation of the entire Qur’an, and the verses of addressing Allah (“You alone do we worship…”) are sent by Allah to us, to teach us the most proper way of turning to Him and calling on Him in supplication.

One of the secrets of the Qur’an is in its change of “person” with respect to pronouns, a rhetorical device in Arabic called iltifat. As an example, the Fatiha begins by Allah addressing Himself in the third person, “In the name of Allah, All-merciful, All-compassionate. All praise be unto Allah, Lord of all the worlds. The All-merciful, All-compassionate. Master of the Day of Judgment.” Then Allah switches from the third person to second person and states, “You alone do we worship, and You alone do we seek help from.”

In His own revelation, directed towards us so that we may recite it back to Him, Allah is teaching us a very powerful lesson through a mere change of person. As Imam Baydawi explains, this switch reflects the spiritual ascent of the believer, who begins by knowing his Lord through His names and attributes, yet progressively draws nearer to his Lord to the extent that his knowledge of Allah goes from “talking about” to “talking to.” The believer now directly addresses his Lord, as if “He Who was merely known has become seen, and He Who was merely comprehended has become directly experienced, and He Who was [seemingly] absent is now present.” [Baydawi, Anwar al-Tanzil wa Asrar al-Ta’wil]


As for the surahs that begin with the word “Say” (qul), Allah Most High chose this word for those specific surahs alone, again due to the rhetorical impact that this word brings in the context of those particular surat, namely, Jinn, Kafirun, Ikhlas, Falaq, and Nas. There is something unique about these surahs, such that to begin with the word “Say” is most appropriate and impactful. For example, for Surah al-Kafirun alone, Imam Razi lists 43 possible reasons as to why Allah began the first verse with the word “Say.” Some of these reasons are as follows:


The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was gentle by nature, and was commanded to deal with his people in a gentle manner. So to emphasize the fact that this surah was revealed by Allah, Allah begins by “Say,” highlighting thereby that the intensity and harshness of this surah is not from the person of Muhammad, but rather pure revelation from his Lord.


another example


The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was surely going to convey this surah to the polytheists of Mecca, regardless of whether Allah began with “Say” or not. Yet this surah deals particularly with the distinction between monotheism and polytheism, and so for Allah to begin with “Say” only emphasizes the gravity and utter crime of their polytheism. This is only a glimpse into the miraculous word choice of the Qur’an. Its language incapacitated the very best of Arab rhetoricians.


There is hadith in Sahih Muslim and Sunan An-Nisai


The Prophet (SAW) said; “Allah the exalted said, ‘I have divided the prayer (Surah Al-Fatihah) into two halves between Me and My servant. A half of it is for Me and a half for My servant, and My servant shall acquire what he asked for.

If he says, ‘All praise and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of existence,' Allah says, ‘My servant has praised Me.’

When the servant says, ‘The Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.’ Allah says, ‘My servant has glorified Me.’

When he says, ‘Master of the Day of Judgment.’ Allah says, ‘My servant has glorified Me.’

When he says, ‘You (alone) we worship, and You (alone) we ask for help.’ Allah says, ‘This is between Me and My servant, and My servant shall acquire what he sought.’

When he says, ‘Guide us to the straight path. The way of those on whom You have granted Your grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your anger, nor of those who went astray.’ Allah says, ‘This is for My servant, and My servant shall acquire what he asked for.’


So Surah Fatiha is the word of God not of Angels or human beings. And this is not about esoteric explanation.

true2god:
Islam also presented a more difficult dilemma here. The muslims major text document is not the quran (the quran is only a fraction of Islamic information) but the hadith. If you place 5 Islamic scholars side by side and read an ayah, they will all give a different meaning to it based on the finding they got from either the hadith or the seerah.

rolling on the floor Try harder buddy. Why did you pretend like you dont understand my point?. You talking about ayah but i talked about basic tenets. There is no disagreement on the basics. Our basics are believe in Allah is One God. Believe that prophet muhammad is prophet and messenger not God. Let me stop here. No muslims disagree with these. But can you as christians give this clear, unambiguous statements about God and Jesus? As for muslims, there is no different understanding on this except for what is clearly and plainly established. If I put 3 christians next to one another and ask them who is Jesus?. I swear by God they would give different answers. You know this.

true2god:
You are mixing things up here as a result of excessive brainwashing. Your submission could have been 'the Quran should not be translated' instead of 'the quran cannot be translated'. There is no book that cannot be translated while retaining the context of the original language, unless you want to tell me that all Arab speakers are ignorant (of other languages) that they cannot do a good job of translatiing their quran to other languages. The issue is that you are merely using semantic to cover the inadequacies and inconsistencies in your quran. The submission you give now is one of the dumbest I have ever seen in my life.

The reason you cannot pray in other language is that if you do, the prayer will not make any sense to a crtitical mind of the person listening to it in his mother-tongue. And since many muslims do not even understand the meaning of the prayers, vis-a-vis Arab language itself, it is same parroting it to the gullble while they say 'AMIN' at the end. Your Al-fathia (the beginning, quran 1:1-7) is a great testimony to this fact. As a take away, who was speaking in quran 1:1-7? Is it Allah, Jibril or mohammed?

You dont get it, do you?. God revealed Quran simply in a language that we would understand enough to make Janna. But you can not translate God's infinite words and meanings. They are limitless. and are not bound by anything. If what i said confuses you, whose fault is that?. Me?

Rashduct4luv:


Alright, you believe the Gospel was not a Book and was not revealed to Jesus which is what we believe.
What is the Gospel that Jesus preached? Where is the Gospel that he preached?

To your Question:

Islam is for all as we believe all Prophets from Adam, Noah, Abraham, Lot, Solomon, David, Moses, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, Joseph, Jonah, Jesus,...., Muhammad are Muslims.

The Gospel is simply "Good News" of Gods love and Solution to man's problem of hereafter. The question were is it is still with the assumption that it is a book. No sir. Jesus didn't even directly write a single line of the scriptures.

That is a big lie that the ones you mentioned are Muslims.
First, most of them are not even prophets, they are "Patriachs" or "Fathers"! A prophet is one who is "sent" by God to speak to His people. Hence, Abraham, Lot, Isaac, Ismael, Joseph are no prophets.

I know you Muslims have been brainwashed to say "they preached the oneness of God". If you know the Jews, that wasn't always a problem to them. Except you can show me an example from the Taurat or any other scriptures before Islam where you can show what their message were.

If Islam is for all as you claim, why must we master ancient Arabic to comprehend can Gods words in the Qur'an?

Empiree:
As I said before, this criticism is baseless and would come only from one who has never studied the Qur’an with any serious thought, let alone sincere evaluation. I accused you of copy paste bcuz this is exactly how it is documented in evangelical christian websites like David Wood, James White, sam shamoun etc. And i think true2god or truth2man, mavisguy or ifeann posted same criticism years back. Now, the entire Qur’an, according to Muslim beliefs, is a revelation from Allah and hence is given to us, for us to recite. The first word revealed chronologically was iqra’ (Read! or Recite!), and so the rest of revelation follows as a recital for Muslims.

I was introduced to Islam through the books of Ahmed Deedat. I know enough Islam not to copy-paste other people's argument.
Apart from David Wood, I've not even heard of the other names you mentioned.

Empiree:

The Fatiha is a summation of the entire Qur’an, and the verses of addressing Allah (“You alone do we worship…”) are sent by Allah to us, to teach us the most proper way of turning to Him and calling on Him in supplication.

This argument will hold water if and only if the Al Fathia was the last revealed Surah. Was it?
If other Surah were revealed after it how can it be the summary of the whole Qur'an?

I do not want to go into the discuss of why the Qur'an was not arranged according to how it was revealed. Could that not be the reason Muslims misunderstand the plain words of Allah in Arabic? You can just imagine if a Textbook was ripped apart and the chapters rearranged in a random manner. Such a text would be difficult to comprehend. Such is the book you hold in high esteem. Who authorized the rearrangement of the suras?

Empiree:

One of the secrets of the Qur’an is in its change of “person” with respect to pronouns, a rhetorical device in Arabic called iltifat. As an example, the Fatiha begins by Allah addressing Himself in the third person, “In the name of Allah, All-merciful, All-compassionate. All praise be unto Allah, Lord of all the worlds. The All-merciful, All-compassionate. Master of the Day of Judgment.” Then Allah switches from the third person to second person and states, “You alone do we worship, and You alone do we seek help from.”

In His own revelation, directed towards us so that we may recite it back to Him, Allah is teaching us a very powerful lesson through a mere change of person. As Imam Baydawi explains, this switch reflects the spiritual ascent of the believer, who begins by knowing his Lord through His names and attributes, yet progressively draws nearer to his Lord to the extent that his knowledge of Allah goes from “talking about” to “talking to.” The believer now directly addresses his Lord, as if “He Who was merely known has become seen, and He Who was merely comprehended has become directly experienced, and He Who was [seemingly] absent is now present.” [Baydawi, Anwar al-Tanzil wa Asrar al-Ta’wil]

I think you or the Islamic scholars are making this up to escape the problems caused by the words of Prophet Mohammed appearing in the Qur'an that was supposed to be the plain words of Allah.

If Allah was changing how he was addressing himself as first, second or third persons, Allah prayed not to go to hell fire: this is unthinkable for the personality of Allah.

Is that not confusing for Allah to speak changing from first to second to third persons. See, the Al Fathia is a beautiful prayer that can only come from the mouth of a sincere believer seeking help from Allah. It makes perfect sense without any need for augmentation and explanations.

The Qur'an was given by Allah in very easy Arabic language, why do we men try to complicate that which is clearly revealed?

Empiree:


As for the surahs that begin with the word “Say” (qul), Allah Most High chose this word for those specific surahs alone, again due to the rhetorical impact that this word brings in the context of those particular surat, namely, Jinn, Kafirun, Ikhlas, Falaq, and Nas. There is something unique about these surahs, such that to begin with the word “Say” is most appropriate and impactful. For example, for Surah al-Kafirun alone, Imam Razi lists 43 possible reasons as to why Allah began the first verse with the word “Say.” Some of these reasons are as follows:


The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was gentle by nature, and was commanded to deal with his people in a gentle manner. So to emphasize the fact that this surah was revealed by Allah, Allah begins by “Say,” highlighting thereby that the intensity and harshness of this surah is not from the person of Muhammad, but rather pure revelation from his Lord.


another example


The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was surely going to convey this surah to the polytheists of Mecca, regardless of whether Allah began with “Say” or not. Yet this surah deals particularly with the distinction between monotheism and polytheism, and so for Allah to begin with “Say” only emphasizes the gravity and utter crime of their polytheism. This is only a glimpse into the miraculous word choice of the Qur’an. Its language incapacitated the very best of Arab rhetoricians.


There is hadith in Sahih Muslim and Sunan An-Nisai


The Prophet (SAW) said; “Allah the exalted said, ‘I have divided the prayer (Surah Al-Fatihah) into two halves between Me and My servant. A half of it is for Me and a half for My servant, and My servant shall acquire what he asked for.

If he says, ‘All praise and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of existence,' Allah says, ‘My servant has praised Me.’

When the servant says, ‘The Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.’ Allah says, ‘My servant has glorified Me.’

When he says, ‘Master of the Day of Judgment.’ Allah says, ‘My servant has glorified Me.’

When he says, ‘You (alone) we worship, and You (alone) we ask for help.’ Allah says, ‘This is between Me and My servant, and My servant shall acquire what he sought.’

When he says, ‘Guide us to the straight path. The way of those on whom You have granted Your grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your anger, nor of those who went astray.’ Allah says, ‘This is for My servant, and My servant shall acquire what he asked for.’


So Surah Fatiha is the word of God not of Angels or human beings. And this is not about esoteric explanation.

I don't have arguments where the word "say" was stated before a Surah at least for intellectual argument sake.

The Al Fathia cannot be the words of Allah. It is a prayer to Allah. Only an Islamic miracle can make the obvious not obvious as in the Al Fathia.

Apart from that, how come only in the Qur'an does God speak in such confusing language.
Have you read the Taurat or Zabura before?