₦airaland Forum

CAPTIVATOR:
One, you are a clown, ... Casting yourself up and down, so did this thief eat the flesh and blood of Jesus to gain everlasting life ?

Secondly, Been born again is a condition for gaining access to heavenly kingdom, Mr rottennaija is the thief born again ? The answer to this please ( John 3:5,6)


Like i said, you are a clown
Can you quote the explanation proper and lets compare with your assertion above ?

Name Calling
First of all, name calling is a diversionary measure and does not stand up in valid arguments.

Name calling is a cognitive bias and a technique to promote propaganda. Propagandists use the name-calling technique to invoke fear in those exposed to the propaganda, resulting in the formation of a negative opinion about a person, group, or set of beliefs or ideas.

Clowns, apostate, ingrate, etc are all tags or names. It does nothing to address the topic nor give a valid argument. I am not surprised when JWs use it often. Its one of their favourite techniques and diversionary.


WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE BORN AGAIN?


The phrase "born again" literally means "born from above." Other expressions used in the bible are: “a new creature”, “Baptized into Christ”, “Sons of God through faith”, “Children of God”, “new birth”. (2 Co 5:17, Ro 6:3, Ga 3:26, John 6:44, 1 Pe 1:3,23)

The “new birth”, is an act of God whereby eternal life is given to the anyone who have faith and believes in his son, Jesus, for forgiveness of sin, salvation and being right with God. It is a new beginning, a new life of a new relationship, for the individual between himself and God, through his faith in Jesus.

2 Co 5: 17 says, “if anyone is in union with Christ, he is a new creation; the old things passed away; look! new things have come into existence.”

HOW DOES ANYONE BECOME BORN AGAIN?
The following scriptures answers the question:

(John 1:12) However, to all who did receive him, he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name.

(1 John 5:1-4) Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born from God, and everyone who loves the one who caused to be born loves him who has been born from that one. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and carry out his commandments. 

(Galatians 3:26) You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus.

(1 John 2:29) If you know that he is righteous, you also know that everyone who practices righteousness has been born from him.

(1 John 3:9) Everyone who has been born from God does not practice sin, for His seed remains in such one, and he cannot practice sin, for he has been born from God.

(1 John 5:18) We know that everyone who has been born from God does not practice sin, but the one born from God watches him, and the wicked one cannot take hold of him.

(1 John 4:7) Beloved ones, let us continue loving one another, because love is from God, and everyone who loves has been born from God and knows God.

Was the thief on the cross born again?

Going by the above scriptures, I say, yes. He was, most definitely. This is a man who accept Jesus, showed faith in him while others were making fun of him. He expressed so great faith him, an unquestioning faith than majority in Israel lack.

No wonder, Jesus promised him "You would be with me in paradise." Said Jesus in Lu 23:43. Jesus will be in heaven, where the paradise of God is, as would the the repented thieve whom he promised. This paradise is mentioned by the apostle Paul in 2 Cor 12:4.

I repeat this question again: Did the man eat Jesus flesh and blood to gain everlasting life ?

You can avoid it again okay

rottennaija:
WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE BORN AGAIN?


The phrase "born again" literally means "born from above." Other expressions used in the bible are: “a new creature”, “Baptized into Christ”, “Sons of God through faith”, “Children of God”, “new birth”. (2 Co 5:17, Ro 6:3, Ga 3:26, John 6:44, 1 Pe 1:3,23)

The “new birth”, is an act of God whereby eternal life is given to the anyone who have faith and believes in his son, Jesus, for forgiveness of sin, salvation and being right with God. It is a new beginning, a new life of a new relationship, for the individual between himself and God, through his faith in Jesus.

2 Co 5: 17 says, “if anyone is in union with Christ, he is a new creation; the old things passed away; look! new things have come into existence.”

HOW DOES ANYONE BECOME BORN AGAIN?
The following scriptures answers the question:

(John 1:12) However, to all who did receive him, he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name.

(1 John 5:1-4) Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born from God, and everyone who loves the one who caused to be born loves him who has been born from that one. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and carry out his commandments. 

(Galatians 3:26) You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus.

(1 John 2:29) If you know that he is righteous, you also know that everyone who practices righteousness has been born from him.

(1 John 3:9) Everyone who has been born from God does not practice sin, for His seed remains in such one, and he cannot practice sin, for he has been born from God.

(1 John 5:18) We know that everyone who has been born from God does not practice sin, but the one born from God watches him, and the wicked one cannot take hold of him.

(1 John 4:7) Beloved ones, let us continue loving one another, because love is from God, and everyone who loves has been born from God and knows God.

Was the thief on the cross born again?

Going by the above scriptures, I say, yes. He was, most definitely. This is a man who accept Jesus, showed faith in him while others were making fun of him. He expressed so great faith him, an unquestioning faith than majority in Israel lack.

No wonder, Jesus promised him "You would be with me in paradise." Said Jesus in Lu 23:43. Jesus will be in heaven, where the paradise of God is, as would the the repented thieve whom he promised. This paradise is mentioned by the apostle Paul in 2 Cor 12:4.

Your definition of born again is all about Faith in Jesus, See even John the Baptist has faith yet he won't be in heaven. Comprehend?

The Great crowd that survived the great tribulation also has faith and do not practice sin, Yet they will be on Earth, comprehend ?

So lets lock that aspect of your post. Shows something deeper is involved.

Am going back to Jesus statement in John chapter 3. How did Jesus define been born again and does this theif fit the criteria ?

Born of water and Spirit. How ?

( Do i need to request again for the supposed explanation of that 2Cor 12:4 )

CAPTIVATOR:
I repeat this question again: Did the man eat Jesus flesh and blood to gain everlasting life ?

You can avoid it again okay




Your definition of born again is all about Faith in Jesus, See even John the Baptist has faith yet he won't be in heaven. Comprehend?

The Great crowd that survived the great tribulation also has faith and do not practice sin, Yet they will be on Earth, comprehend ?

So lets lock that aspect of your post. Shows something deeper is involved.

Am going back to Jesus statement in John chapter 3. How did Jesus define been born again and does this theif fit the criteria ?

Born of water and Spirit. How ?

( Do i need to request again for the supposed explanation of that 2Cor 12:4 )

Where in the bible is it said John wouldn't be in heaven? The man fit the criteria perfectly. Not only will John not be on heaven, Abraham, Isaacs, Jacob etc will also be on heaven too.

Evasion again: Did the thief eat Jesus flesh and blood to gain everlasting life.?

• Bring the supposed explanation of 2Cor 12:4

• How did Jesus define been Born again, and how does this thief fit the criteria of born by water and spirit ?

rottennaija:
Where in the bible is it said John wouldn't be in heaven?

Matthew 11:11

So also the great crowd with Faith , are on earth.

So go back and defend yourself by explaining the deep aspects Born of water and spirit

rottennaija:
The man fit the criteria perfectly.

He was born of water and spirit ? Mr explain

Not only will John not be on heaven, Abraham, Isaacs, Jacob etc will also be on heaven too.

Yeah, they are all Born again, born from water and spirit ?

CAPTIVATOR:
Evasion again: Did the thief eat Jesus flesh and blood to gain everlasting life.?

• Bring the supposed explanation of 2Cor 12:4

• How did Jesus define been Born again, and how does this thief fit the criteria of born by water and spirit ?





Matthew 11:11

So also the great crowd with Faith , are on earth.

So go back and defend yourself by explaining the deep aspects Born of water and spirit

St. Matthew 11:11 "I assure you, of all who have ever lived, none is greater than John the Baptist. Yet even the most insignificant person in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he is!

Which part of it says he will not be in heaven?

How did Jesus define born again?
Jesus didn't define born again. He made a forceful statement that you cannot enter, see God's kingdom if you are not born again.

These scriptures define born again.
(John 1:12) However, to all who did receive him, he gave authority to become God’s children, [/i]because they were exercising faith in his name.

(1 John 5:1-4) Everyone who [i]believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born from God, and everyone who loves the one who caused to be born loves him who has been born from that one. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and carry out his commandments. 

(Galatians 3:26) You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus.

(1 John 2:29) If you know that he is righteous, you also know that everyone who practices righteousness has been born from him.

(1 John 3:9) Everyone who has been born from God does not practice sin, for His seed remains in such one, and he cannot practice sin, for he has been born from God.

(1 John 5:18) We know that everyone who has been born from God does not practice sin, but the one born from God watches him, and the wicked one cannot take hold of him.

(1 John 4:7) Beloved ones, let us continue loving one another, because love is from God, and everyone who loves has been born from God and knows God.

2 Co 12:4 - let watchtower itself answer
2:7​—What is “the paradise of God”? Since these words are addressed to anointed Christians, the paradise here must refer to the paradisaic heavenly realm​—the very presence of God himself. The faithful anointed will be rewarded with eating “of the tree of life.” They will receive immortality.​—1 Cor. 15:53

CAPTIVATOR:
He was born of water and spirit ? Mr explain



Yeah, they are all Born again, born from water and spirit ?

You are here mixing different concept of different times together. Pre-Christian servant of God are not described as Christian, neither are they required to follow Christians believe.

Their criteria for faith and obedience was different compared to our. And those who met those criteria, God made them the promise to prepare a heavenly city for them.

Read Hebrews 11: 15 - 16
Hebrews 11:13
All these faithful ones died without receiving what God had promised them, but they saw it all from a distance and welcomed the promises of God. They agreed that they were no more than foreigners and nomads here on earth.

Hebrews 11:14
And obviously people who talk like that are looking forward to a country they can call their own.

Hebrews 11:15
If they had meant the country they came from, they would have found a way to go back.
Hebrews 11:16 But they were looking for a better place, a heavenly homeland. That is why God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a heavenly city for them.

rottennaija:
St. Matthew 11:11 "I assure you, of all who have ever lived, none is greater than John the Baptist. Yet even the most insignificant person in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he is!

Which part of it says he will not be in heaven?

Jesus was referring to ALL MANKIND. Statement 1.

Jesus was referring to All who would be in heaven, statement 2. But the most insignificant would be greater than John , which shows he wont be there, If John would be there, he won't be the most insignificant .

How did Jesus define born again?
Jesus didn't define born again. He made a forceful statement that you cannot enter, see God's kingdom if you are not born again.

Jesus didnt define, but explained matters to Nichodemus. Well done.

Now he explained it means been Born of water and spirit , How is that man born of water and spirit ?

These scriptures define born again.
(John 1:12) However, to all who did receive him, he gave authority to become God’s children, [/i]because they were exercising faith in his name.

(1 John 5:1-4) Everyone who [i]believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born from God, and everyone who loves the one who caused to be born loves him who has been born from that one. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and carry out his commandments. 

(Galatians 3:26) You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus.

(1 John 2:29) If you know that he is righteous, you also know that everyone who practices righteousness has been born from him.

(1 John 3:9) Everyone who has been born from God does not practice sin, for His seed remains in such one, and he cannot practice sin, for he has been born from God.

(1 John 5:18) We know that everyone who has been born from God does not practice sin, but the one born from God watches him, and the wicked one cannot take hold of him.

(1 John 4:7) Beloved ones, let us continue loving one another, because love is from God, and everyone who loves has been born from God and knows God.

The great crowd knows God and have faith in Jesus, yet they are on earth. Something deeper is involved, Again: How is that thief born of water and spirit?

Did he eat Jesus flesh and blood to gain life ?

2 Co 12:4 - let watchtower itself answer
2:7​ —What is “the paradise of God”? Since these words are addressed to anointed Christians, the paradise here must refer to the paradisaic heavenly realm​—the very presence of God himself. The faithful anointed will be rewarded with eating “of the tree of life.” They will receive immortality.​—1 Cor. 15:53

This is not an explanation of 2Cor 12:4, You think u dealing with a Kid, the blue is a reference to Rev 2:7 . Quote the explanation for 2Cor 12:4. Pathetic

rottennaija:
You are here mixing different concept of different times together. Pre-Christian servant of God are not described as Christian, neither are they required to follow Christians believe.

Their criteria die faith and obedience was different compared to our. And those who met those criteria, God made them the promise to prepare a heavenly city for them.

Read Hebrews 11: 15 - 16
Hebrews 11:13
All these faithful ones died without receiving what God had promised them, but they saw it all from a distance and welcomed the promises of God. They agreed that they were no more than foreigners and nomads here on earth.

Hebrews 11:14
And obviously people who talk like that are looking forward to a country they can call their own.

Hebrews 11:15
If they had meant the country they came from, they would have found a way to go back.
Hebrews 11:16 But they were looking for a better place, a heavenly homeland. That is why God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a heavenly city for them.

John 3:3 debunk your claim that been born again doesn't apply to them . UNLESS ANYONE. Deep!

Wait, so they die and their soul made heaven without Jesus even dying for their Sin ? O how useless the ransom is , people make heaven without Jesus. Right?

CAPTIVATOR:
Jesus was referring to ALL MANKIND. Statement 1.

Jesus was referring to All who would be in heaven, statement 2. But the most insignificant would be greater than John , which shows he wont be there, If John would be there, he won't be the most insignificant .



Jesus didnt define, but explained matters to Nichodemus. Well done.

Now he explained it means been Born of water and spirit , How is that man born of water and spirit ?



The great crowd knows God and have faith in Jesus, yet they are on earth. Something deeper is involved, Again: How is that thief born of water and spirit?

Did he eat Jesus flesh and blood to gain life ?



This is not an explanation of 2Cor 12:4, You think u dealing with a Kid, the blue is a reference to Rev 2:7 . Quote the explanation for 2Cor 12:4. Pathetic

You mean the same great crowd of Re 19:1?

Revelation 19:1 After this, I heard the sound of a vast crowd in heaven shouting, "Hallelujah! Salvation is from our God. Glory and power belong to him alone.

Re 2:7
So the paradise of God is in heaven? A paradise in heaven? But not the same paradise apostle Paul saw in his vision?

2 Corinthians 12:2 I was caught up into the third heaven fourteen years ago.

2 Corinthians 12:4 But I do know that I was caught up into paradise and heard things so astounding that they cannot be told.

Revelation 2:7 "Anyone who is willing to hear should listen to the Spirit and understand what the Spirit is saying to the churches. Everyone who is victorious will eat from the tree of life in the paradise of God.

CAPTIVATOR:
John 3:3 debunk your claim that been born again doesn't apply to them . UNLESS ANYONE. Deep!

Wait, so they die and their soul made heaven without Jesus even dying for their Sin ? O how useless the ransom is , people make heaven without Jesus. Right?

Since we are being sarcastically foolish logic, yes, according to WT doctrine, they die and will be resurrected to earthly life, without Jesus dying for them. O, how useless the ransom is, people resurrected without Jesus, right?

rottennaija:
You mean the same great crowd of Re 19:1?

Revelation 19:1 After this, I heard the sound of a vast crowd in heaven shouting, "Hallelujah! Salvation is from our God. Glory and power belong to him alone.

A description of a voice heard , Not saw a Crowd.
Same voice was likened to water and thunder as well . Must you always embarass yourself with paul Grundy dull arguments which Jozzy4 trashed on the other thread

More: Did the thief eat Jesus flesh and blood to gain life ?

Re 2:7
So the paradise of God is in heaven? A paradise in heaven? But not the same paradise apostle Paul saw in his vision?

2 Corinthians 12:2 I was caught up into the third heaven fourteen years ago.

2 Corinthians 12:4 But I do know that I was caught up into paradise and heard things so astounding that they cannot be told.

Revelation 2:7 "Anyone who is willing to hear should listen to the Spirit and understand what the Spirit is saying to the churches. Everyone who is victorious will eat from the tree of life in the paradise of God.

Mr man, You claimed there is an explanation for 2 Cor 12:4 isnt it, present it . and Revelation 2:7 will be clear, we would know if its same with the one Jesus mentioned years earlier at Luke 23:43 or not, if there are other reference to Paradise apart from that, ths thing isnt hard

rottennaija:
Since we are being sarcastically foolish logic, yes, according to WT doctrine, they die and will be resurrected to earthly life, without Jesus dying for them. O, how useless the ransom is, people resurrected without Jesus, right?

Can anyone ressurect and live a thousand years and beyond without Jesus ransom ? Sorry u don't think

Go back and reply, Did People gain Everlasting Life in heaven without Jesus even dying for their sins? Dont forget those men died long before Jesus even came for mankind. By your logic, is the ransom not useless ?

CAPTIVATOR:
Can anyone ressurect and live a thousand years and beyond without Jesus ransom ? Sorry u don't think

Go back and reply, Did People gain Everlasting Life in heaven without Jesus even dying for their sins? Dont forget those men died long before Jesus even came for mankind. By your logic, is the ransom not useless ?

I used it to show you the foolishness of what you had wrote. I'm surprised you don't see it. Here you claim someone had died decades before Jesus paid the ransom can resurrect and live a 1000 years but cannot live in heaven because Jesus had not been alive when they died.

I'm surprised. Probably, you don't read my post. Maybe you are simply scanning my post just to see what you can reply and not.

CAPTIVATOR:
A description of a voice heard , Not saw a Crowd.
Same voice was likened to water and thunder as well . Must you always embarass yourself with paul Grundy dull arguments which Jozzy4 trashed on the other thread

No. I don't embarrass myself with Paul grudy doll argument. No. Neither do I deceive myself with watchtower and its governing body deceptive, ignorant and self serving arguments and falsehood.


Revelation 19:1 After this, I heard the sound of a vast crowd in heaven shouting, "Hallelujah! Salvation is from our God. Glory and power belong to him alone.

John didn't just hear the sound, he said the great crowd is in heaven. Verse 6 says, they sound is as loud thunder, many water. Whether the sound was as loud thunder or not, the point it, the sound was made by a great crowd in heaven.

When baptismal candidates in your convention answers with a loud, clear voice Yes, their voices can be like thunder or many water. But their voices will be heard in the front seat of the auditorium. because that is where they are.

Anyone outside the convention ground hear the sound of songs of worship, will be a sound a loud as thunder or water or anything. But the sound he will hear will be in the convention ground because that is where they are and making the sound from.

rottennaija:
I used it to show you the foolishness of what you had wrote. I'm surprised you don't see it. Here you claim someone had died decades before Jesus paid the ransom can resurrect and live a 1000 years but cannot live in heaven because Jesus had not been alive when they died.

I'm surprised. Probably, you don't read my post. Maybe you are simply scanning my post just to see what you can reply and not.

I never claimed the red part, stop putting words in my mouth, My reference was Jesus ransom making it possible for people to be raised to life in the FUTURE for a thousand years and beyond under the Messianic rule.

Compare that to your useless theory that Before Jesus even died for sin, men have been dying and going to heaven, of what use is Jesus death if people made heaven without him dying for sins ?

rottennaija:
No. I don't embarrass myself with Paul grudy doll argument. No. Neither do I deceive myself with watchtower and its governing body deceptive, ignorant and self serving arguments and falsehood.


Revelation 19:1 After this, I heard the sound of a vast crowd in heaven shouting, "Hallelujah! Salvation is from our God. Glory and power belong to him alone.

John didn't just hear the sound, he said the great crowd is in heaven. Verse 6 says, they sound is as loud thunder, many water. Whether the sound was as loud thunder or not, the point it, the sound was made by a great crowd in heaven.

When baptismal candidates in your convention answers with a loud, clear voice Yes, their voices can be like thunder or many water. But their voices will be heard in the front seat of the auditorium. because that is where they are.

Anyone outside the convention ground hear the sound of songs of worship, will be a sound a loud as thunder or water or anything. But the sound he will hear will be in the convention ground because that is where they are and making the sound from.

please read the blue, " AS" , is used to make a comparison , John was describing what he heard , The wording of the text reveal he was comparing what he heard, He said the VOICE Is LIKE or AS a vast crowd , thunder, water. A comparison,


That alone render your postulation invalid.

The Great Crowd of Rev 7 are on earth where the great tribulation occur, John didnt say " LIKE" or " AS" .

CAPTIVATOR:
A description of a voice heard , Not saw a Crowd.
Same voice was likened to water and thunder as well . Must you always embarass yourself with paul Grundy dull arguments which Jozzy4 trashed on the other thread

More: Did the thief eat Jesus flesh and blood to gain life ?





Mr man, You claimed there is an explanation for 2 Cor 12:4 isnt it, present it . and Revelation 2:7 will be clear, we would know if its same with the one Jesus mentioned years earlier at Luke 23:43 or not, if there are other reference to Paradise apart from that, ths thing isnt hard

Good question .

CAPTIVATOR:
please read the blue, " AS" , is used to make a comparison , John was describing what he heard , The wording of the text reveal he was comparing what he heard, He said the VOICE Is LIKE or AS a vast crowd , thunder, water. A comparison,


That alone render your postulation invalid.

The Great Crowd of Rev 7 are on earth where the great tribulation occur, John didnt say " LIKE" or " AS" .

I thought the great crowd is standing before the throne and before the lamb? This is a new one to me o


If we ask you to show us the bible verse where great crowd are on earth were the great tribulation will occur you will become mute.

This people want to justify the fact that only their governing body and 144000 are going to heaven while they remain on earth because Rutherford, knott and the governing body told them that they think the bible said so.




Rev 7:9
9 After this I looked, and there was a great crowd that no one could number. They were from every nation, tribe, people, and language. They were standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They wore white robes and held palm branches in their hands. 10 They cried out with a loud voice:

“Victory belongs to our God
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

CAPTIVATOR:
John 3:3 debunk your claim that been born again doesn't apply to them . UNLESS ANYONE. Deep!

Wait, so they die and their soul made heaven without Jesus even dying for their Sin ? O how useless the ransom is , people make heaven without Jesus. Right?

All these ones because you want to try to justify your governing body assumption that only the governing body are the mediator between your jehovah and you people.
Lol

The truth is captivator you will still die while waiting for your armageddon to come so you can live forever on paradise earth.

Na cycle

The same way your grandparents who probably converted ended up dying while waiting is the same way you will still die while waiting.


All those people that died refusing blood transfusion since 1945 because they thought once they refuse and die will wake up in paradise earth are still dead. They have turned to skeletons sef.

Armageddon is never coming

CAPTIVATOR:
I repeat this question again: Did the man eat Jesus flesh and blood to gain everlasting life ?

You can avoid it again okay




Your definition of born again is all about Faith in Jesus, See even John the Baptist has faith yet he won't be in heaven. Comprehend?

The Great crowd that survived the great tribulation also has faith and do not practice sin, Yet they will be on Earth, comprehend ?

So lets lock that aspect of your post. Shows something deeper is involved.

Am going back to Jesus statement in John chapter 3. How did Jesus define been born again and does this theif fit the criteria ?

Born of water and Spirit. How ?

( Do i need to request again for the supposed explanation of that 2Cor 12:4 )

All these to justify your belief and doctrine that the only way you can survive the upcoming armageddon inside your head/imagination is by joining watchtower organisation and accepting that the 8 old imperfect, uninspired and fallible men who make mistakes in directing their organisation and make errors when formulating their doctrines are the only channel of communication between God and man today.

Lol. You will really wait for us to accept that channel and worship god through that channel.


You even they say blood jesus shed on the cross is nothing

You are even saying believing jesus will lead to everlasting life is a lie even if the bible said so while joining watchtower organisation and unquestionably obey the 8 old uninspired men will lead to everlasting life is true because watchtower magazines say so

Captivator says bible is lying but watchtower magazine is telling the truth. Lol

CAPTIVATOR:
I never claimed the red part, stop putting words in my mouth, My reference was Jesus ransom making it possible for people to be raised to life in the FUTURE for a thousand years and beyond under the Messianic rule.

Compare that to your useless theory that Before Jesus even died for sin, men have been dying and going to heaven, of what use is Jesus death if people made heaven without him dying for sins ?

First of all, if you can show me where I said that "before Jesus even died, men have been dying and going to heaven", then I'll concede you have won. That is one of the useless theory formed by JWs about others when they don't ask to know what the person said.

Even Jesus had said that no one has gone to heaven before, but the first to is him who descended and ascended again. (Jn 3:13)

At the time of Jesus saying it, it stood true for no one had. In Paul's mention of what many refer to as the rapture, he referred to the other of resurrection, where those who had died before in the Lord will rise first. It stands to reason that during the Christ second coming, "the presence of the Lord", those who died earlier will resurrect first, then those who are still alive will be caught up into the air, where the apostle mention that "we shall always be with the Lord". (1 Th 4:15-18) The order of resurrection syns in line with Jesus' word in Mt 24:40, 41.

The 1 Th 4:15-18 account by the apostle Paul punctures another hole in the Jw doctrine of Jesus invisible presence in 1914 where he was said to be enthroned as King. Because, if had been, then 100 years after, they wouldn't be any anointed on earth as they would have all be with him, unless JWs want us to believe that the resurrection is also invisible too or whatever.

In any case, I will not be speculating on the order of resurrection, on who will be resurrected first and who follows after. These are on of the matters not clearly stated in the bible. But what is stated clearly, firmly is, they will be resurrection, ancient faithful servants of God will be rewarded in heaven, for God had prepared a heavenly city for them, (He 11:16) a great crowd is in heaven (Re 19:1), 144,000 will be in heaven (Re 14:3).

**********************
St. John 3:13 For only I, the Son of Man, have come to earth and will return to heaven again.

St. Matthew 24:40 "Two men will be working together in the field; one will be taken, the other left.
St. Matthew 24:41 Two women will be grinding flour at the mill; one will be taken, the other left.

Hebrews 11:16 But they were looking for a better place, a heavenly homeland. That is why God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a heavenly city for them.

CAPTIVATOR:
please read the blue, " AS" , is used to make a comparison , John was describing what he heard , The wording of the text reveal he was comparing what he heard, He said the VOICE Is LIKE or AS a vast crowd , thunder, water. A comparison,


That alone render your postulation invalid.

Where I come from, when two people are arguing a point and one among them is smiling and laughing from ear to ear, it is generally an indication he lacks what to say, cannot defend or is ill equipped and deficient.

First of all, you need to know the apostle John's writing style throughout the book of revelation. He uses the expression "seems like", "as", "like" frequently. The uses of these words doesn't suggest something he isn't sure of, a reflection of his point of view. He is seeing something millenniums ahead of time.

Second, yes, John is describing what he heard. But that does not invalid the location of where the sound is coming from. As an example, Re 1:10 says

Revelation 1:10
It was the Lord's Day, and I was worshiping in the Spirit. Suddenly, I heard a loud voice behind me, a voice that sounded like a trumpet blast.

Hear, John is describing what he heard, the voice sounded like a trumpet blast. Fine. But does that invalid the fact that he heard a voice? Behind him? No.

The description of the voice, how it sounded does not have anything to do with its source or location. If I heard a voice that sounded like a big clash of metal in the TV, the description of the sound doesn't affect where I heard it from. I'm just adding qualifiers to describe what I heard.

In Re 1:14, John describe he saw. Someone like the son of man, his hair and head were white like wool, as white as snow. His eyes were like flames etc. The use of like, as in those passages doesn't not invalid who he saw, the son of man, rather they are added description of his appearances.

Again, John said in Re 4:1

Revelation 4:1 Then as I looked, I saw a door standing open in heaven, and the same voice I had heard before spoke to me with the sound of a mighty trumpet blast. The voice said, " Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things. "

Here, he again described the sound as being of a mighty trumpet. But the description of the sound does not invalid the source of the sound or its location or just as in verse 2, he was shown a throne in heaven whom the one sitting on it was as" brilliant as gemstones—jasper and carnelian", this again does not invalid that the throne is in heaven or that someone is sitting on it.

You need more? Carefully examine the book of Revelation, pay attention to John's writing style.

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Revelation 1:14 His head and his hair were white like wool, as white as snow. And his eyes were bright like flames of fire.
Revelation 1:15 His feet were as bright as bronze refined in a furnace, and his voice thundered like mighty ocean waves.

The Great Crowd of Rev 7 are on earth where the great tribulation occur, John didnt say " LIKE" or " AS" .

Revelation 7:9 After this I saw a vast crowd, too great to count, from every nation and tribe and people and language, standing in front of the throne and before the Lamb. They were clothed in white and held palm branches in their hands.

Re 7:9 is describing events after the tribulation or whatever you call it. It mentions them standing in front of the throne and before the lamp. There is no mention of earth in that verse, you are simply forcing it on the verse.

Re 7:15 goes further to mention them serving God in his temple sanctuary, Greek divine habitation of God. This temple sanctuary corresponds to the Holy of Holies of the Jerusalem temple, where only the high priest enter.

There is simply no point in the bible to support your claims.

rottennaija:
Where I come from, when two people are arguing a point and one among them is smiling and laughing from ear to ear, it is generally an indication he lacks what to say, cannot defend or is ill equipped and deficient.

First of all, you need to know the apostle John's writing style throughout the book of revelation. He uses the expression "seems like", "as", "like" frequently. The uses of these words doesn't suggest something he isn't sure of, a reflection of his point of view. He is seeing something millenniums ahead of time.

Second, yes, John is describing what he heard. But that does not invalid the location of where the sound is coming from. As an example, Re 1:10 says

Revelation 1:10
It was the Lord's Day, and I was worshiping in the Spirit. Suddenly, I heard a loud voice behind me, a voice that sounded like a trumpet blast.

Hear, John is describing what he heard, the voice sounded like a trumpet blast. Fine. But does that invalid the fact that he heard a voice? Behind him? No.

The description of the voice, how it sounded does not have anything to do with its source or location. If I heard a voice that sounded like a big clash of metal in the TV, the description of the sound doesn't affect where I heard it from. I'm just adding qualifiers to describe what I heard.

In Re 1:14, John describe he saw. Someone like the son of man, his hair and head were white like wool, as white as snow. His eyes were like flames etc. The use of like, as in those passages doesn't not invalid who he saw, the son of man, rather they are added description of his appearances.

Again, John said in Re 4:1

Revelation 4:1 Then as I looked, I saw a door standing open in heaven, and the same voice I had heard before spoke to me with the sound of a mighty trumpet blast. The voice said, " Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things. "

Here, he again described the sound as being of a mighty trumpet. But the description of the sound does not invalid the source of the sound or its location or just as in verse 2, he was shown a throne in heaven whom the one sitting on it was as" brilliant as gemstones—jasper and carnelian", this again does not invalid that the throne is in heaven or that someone is sitting on it.

You need more? Carefully examine the book of Revelation, pay attention to John's writing style.

*******************

Revelation 1:14 His head and his hair were white like wool, as white as snow. And his eyes were bright like flames of fire.
Revelation 1:15 His feet were as bright as bronze refined in a furnace, and his voice thundered like mighty ocean waves.

You are offside, No one said John didnt heard a voice, But the description refer to vast crowd of Angel's with Mighty voices like thunder and like many waters . thats not human

Your problem is you tend to conclude every mention of vast crowd is a reference to those of Rev 7, Then that means when Jesus is said to be teaching the Great crowd at Matthew 19:2 and 20:29, its a reference to those of Rev 7 ??

Your case is pathetic

Revelation 7:9 After this I saw a vast crowd, too great to count, from every nation and tribe and people and language, standing in front of the throne and before the Lamb. They were clothed in white and held palm branches in their hands.

Re 7:9 is describing events after the tribulation or whatever you call it. It mentions them standing in front of the throne and before the lamp. There is no mention of earth in that verse, you are simply forcing it on the verse.

Re 7:15 goes further to mention them serving God in his temple sanctuary, Greek divine habitation of God. This temple sanctuary corresponds to the Holy of Holies of the Jerusalem temple, where only the high priest enter.

There is simply no point in the bible to support your claims.

At Matthew 25:32, the nations were said be standing before the throne too, So all the nations are in heaven . where is your thinking cap ?

The angel said this great crowd are those that SURVIVED the great tribulation , where did it occur ? The answer is clear. They survived and came out of it, they didnt die o that they will now dissapear to heaven or be ressurected there common sense

rottennaija:
First of all, if you can show me where I said that "before Jesus even died, men have been dying and going to heaven", then I'll concede you have won. That is one of the useless theory formed by JWs about others when they don't ask to know what the person said.

Even Jesus had said that no one has gone to heaven before, but the first to is him who descended and ascended again. (Jn 3:13)

At the time of Jesus saying it, it stood true for no one had. In Paul's mention of what many refer to as the rapture, he referred to the other of resurrection, where those who had died before in the Lord will rise first. It stands to reason that during the Christ second coming, "the presence of the Lord", those who died earlier will resurrect first, then those who are still alive will be caught up into the air, where the apostle mention that "we shall always be with the Lord". (1 Th 4:15-18) The order of resurrection syns in line with Jesus' word in Mt 24:40, 41.

The 1 Th 4:15-18 account by the apostle Paul punctures another hole in the Jw doctrine of Jesus invisible presence in 1914 where he was said to be enthroned as King. Because, if had been, then 100 years after, they wouldn't be any anointed on earth as they would have all be with him, unless JWs want us to believe that the resurrection is also invisible too or whatever.

In any case, I will not be speculating on the order of resurrection, on who will be resurrected first and who follows after. These are on of the matters not clearly stated in the bible. But what is stated clearly, firmly is, they will be resurrection, ancient faithful servants of God will be rewarded in heaven, for God had prepared a heavenly city for them, (He 11:16) a great crowd is in heaven (Re 19:1), 144,000 will be in heaven (Re 14:3).

**********************
St. John 3:13 For only I, the Son of Man, have come to earth and will return to heaven again.

St. Matthew 24:40 "Two men will be working together in the field; one will be taken, the other left.
St. Matthew 24:41 Two women will be grinding flour at the mill; one will be taken, the other left.

Hebrews 11:16 But they were looking for a better place, a heavenly homeland. That is why God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a heavenly city for them.

Those men are not born again, stop wasting your time on this aspect, I can see you have kept mute on the different criteria theory when it was shown to you where its written UNLESS ANYONE is born again. So 1Thes didnt apply to them, But the ressurection described in Act 24:15

Same goes for the thief on Jesus side, funny enough he didn't eat Jesus flesh and blood ( emblems) according to rottennaija philosophy yet gained life

===

Act 24:15 Ressurection of righteous and unrighteous . a ressurection to heaven ?

CAPTIVATOR:
You are offside, No one said John didnt heard a voice, But the description refer to vast crowd of Angel's with Mighty voices like thunder and like many waters . thats not human

CAPTIVATOR post=84455918:
please read the blue, " AS" , is used to make a comparison , John was describing what he heard , The wording of the text reveal he was comparing what he heard, He said the VOICE Is LIKE or AS a vast crowd , thunder, water. A comparison,


That alone render your postulation invalid.

The Great Crowd of Rev 7 are on earth where the great tribulation occur, John didnt say " LIKE" or " AS" .

You are indeed funny. You were trying to hang to to the use of "like, as" by John. I took time to explain John's writing style, you couldn't argue nonsense anymore.

Now you are shifting ground to angels. Let me ask you clearly, the great crowd of Re 19:1 refers to angels just because John didn't use "like, as" in Re 7 about the GC?

Your problem is you tend to conclude every mention of vast crowd is a reference to those of Rev 7, Then that means when Jesus is said to be teaching the Great crowd at Matthew 19:2 and 20:29, its a reference to those of Rev 7 ??

Your case is pathetic

Let's have clarity here. You are saying the great crowd of Re 19:1 is angel? Right?

At Matthew 25:32, the nations were said be standing before the throne too, So all the nations are in heaven . where is your thinking cap ?

The angel said this great crowd are those that SURVIVED the great tribulation , where did it occur ? The answer is clear. They survived and came out of it, they didnt die o that they will now dissapear to heaven or be ressurected there common sense

St. Matthew 25:32 All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate them as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

Mt 25:32 is above. You can quote from NWT. Where does it say the nations are gathered before the throne?

CAPTIVATOR:
Those men are not born again, stop wasting your time on this aspect, I can see you have kept mute on the different criteria theory when it was shown to you where its written UNLESS ANYONE is born again. So 1Thes didnt apply to them, But the ressurection described in Act 24:15

Same goes for the thief on Jesus side, funny enough he didn't eat Jesus flesh and blood ( emblems) according to rottennaija philosophy yet gained life

===

Act 24:15 Ressurection of righteous and unrighteous . a ressurection to heaven ?

Again, i'm gonna ask you to show me where I said those men were born again?

Let me ask you, was Abraham required to keep the mosaic law? How about Isaac and Jacob? If they not, why?

rottennaija:
You are indeed funny. You were trying to hang to to the use of "like, as" by John. I took time to explain John's writing style, you couldn't argue nonsense anymore.

Now you are shifting ground to angels. Let me ask you clearly, the great crowd of Re 19:1 refers to angels just because John didn't use "like, as" in Re 7 about the GC?


Let's have clarity here. You are saying the great crowd of Re 19:1 is angel? Right?

Voice heard looks LIKE Water, Thunder, Great crowd, description, are you aware that He described the voice of Jesus as like Many waters, just one person, so the point is, The voices can be that of just two, three, or four angels. Voice heard was described, HE DIDN'T SAW A GREAT CROWD, Rushing Waters Or Thunder. Keep that point.

St. Matthew 25:32 All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate them as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

Mt 25:32 is above. You can quote from NWT. Where does it say the nations are gathered before the throne?

Do I need to spoonfeed you that you should look up verse 31?

rottennaija:
Again, i'm gonna ask you to show me where I said those men were born again?

Let me ask you, was Abraham required to keep the mosaic law? How about Isaac and Jacob? If they not, why?

So u agree with my point that they are not born again.

John 3:3 UNLESS anyone is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God .

They are not going to heaven. Likewise, that thief on Jesus side.

CAPTIVATOR:
So u agree with my point that they are not born again.

John 3:3 UNLESS anyone is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God .

They are not going to heaven. Likewise, that thief on Jesus side.

I never said they were, rather I said they hhad a different criteria required of them. I challenge you to show me where I said they were. However, I saying the thief was born again. Simply.

Let me ask you, was Abraham required to keep the mosaic law? How about Isaac and Jacob? If they not, why?

CAPTIVATOR:
Voice heard looks LIKE Water, Thunder, Great crowd, description, are you aware that He described the voice of Jesus as like Many waters, just one person, so the point is, The voices can be that of just two, three, or four angels. Voice heard was described, HE DIDN'T SAW A GREAT CROWD, Rushing Waters Or Thunder. Keep that point.







Do I need to spoonfeed you that you should look up verse 31?

Ask a very specific question. Where does it say the nations are gathered before the throne?

rottennaija:
I never said they were, rather I said they hhad a different criteria required of them. I challenge you to show me where I said they were. However, I saying the thief was born again. Simply.

Was pointing a fact to you. They aint born again, simple . Means they won't be in heaven

For the thief, I ask: How exactly is the thief born of water and spirit to be regarded as born again ?

Let me ask you, was Abraham required to keep the mosaic law? How about Isaac and Jacob? If they not, why?

You are wasting your time." UNLESS ANYONE "doesn't create room for exception theory