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Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by Edeyoung: 1:07pm On Apr 30, 2020 |
TAO11: Ok thanks |
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by TAO11(f): 1:11pm On Apr 30, 2020 |
Edeyoung: Take it from the comment found at the following link: https://www.nairaland.com/5802327/name-benin-not-gotten-ife/4#88788879 |
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by Edeyoung: 1:29pm On Apr 30, 2020 |
TAO11: You only explained the etymology of the word and not the reason why oba was made the general word for kingship in yoruba land
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Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by TAO11(f): 1:35pm On Apr 30, 2020 |
Edeyoung:Under the sub-heading "Yoruba Raids and the Nupe Invasions", Dr. R.E. Bradbury writes as follows: "The whole of the North-West Edo area came under Nupe during the latter half of the 19th century. The Nupe invasions are said to be preceeded by incursions from Ibadan under a leader named Aje ... The Ibadan raids seem mainly to have been confined to the North-West corner of the region, but the Ososo people say their ancestors were driven away and their houses burnt by Yoruba before the Nupe came. Osi, Ebune, Ugbosi, Ibillo, Ekor, Ekpessa, Lankpese, Ibiekuma, and Ekpe are among the communities who were scattered or had their settlement sacked by the Yoruba." Reference: R. E. Bradbury, Benin Kingdom and the Edo-speaking people of South-Western Nigeria, (1957), p.112. |
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by TAO11(f): 1:39pm On Apr 30, 2020 |
Edeyoung: You seem not to understand what etymology means. I can explain what it means if you care. Moreover that particular comment is way way longer than the little part you screenshot and attached here. In summary, I demostrated that the word "Oba" is originally absent from the Edo lexicon. I then subsequently showed that the word "Oba" is rooted in the Yoruba lexicon, and that it always always signify King. So, asking me "why oba was made the general word for kingship" is just like asking an Igbo man why the word "bia" was made the general word for "come". The origin of the word "Oba" is rooted in the Yoruba lexicon. And as has been shown from etymological analysis, it simply flowed much later into the Edo lexicon as a loanterm. |
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by Edeyoung: 1:55pm On Apr 30, 2020 |
TAO11: Nice..... Me on my own dont even regard edo north as edo...... The closest edo brothers are esan Edo north is so mixed with different tribe Benin, yoruba, esan, igala, nupe and hausas Calling them edo wont equate thier identity Ososo bear yoruba names and cultures too Politically they are edo but culturally they are something else |
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by TAO11(f): 1:57pm On Apr 30, 2020 |
Edeyoung: Lol Benin Kingdom's territory protected by the government and military of the Benin Kingdom, and inhabited by Edos and some others was sacked and raided by the Ibadan. That's the whole point! Also, Ososo(moye) --- who are largely Edos --- are not the only Edo people mentioned in that reference. Cheers! |
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by Edeyoung: 2:06pm On Apr 30, 2020 |
TAO11: Lol..... Yea if its a clan that has that particular word bia in igbo atleast they will tell you the reasons why bia subdue the other word for come in ibo In everything there must be a reason Even if a person is saying rubbish there must be a reason why he talks rubbish... Probably the person mentally unstable or got anger issue What am saying is there must be a reason for doing something dont you think I want to know why always benin Not only the world oba it was also only the benin who summited thier head for ritual approval Why always benin....? |
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by TAO11(f): 2:23pm On Apr 30, 2020 |
Edeyoung: Let me turn the table perhaps that will help you see what your question sound like: (1) What is the word for "hair" in your language? (2) Why did that word come to be generally used for "hair" in your language? (3) Why did it replace other/previous words for "hair" in your language? I hope these three foregoing points forces you to see the implication of your question, and ultimately my point. Regarding the part where you talked about Bini submitting themselves for ritual, I am not sure what you're saying there. Can you be clearer? |
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by Edeyoung: 2:49pm On Apr 30, 2020 |
TAO11: Hair means eto and it is just one word for it...... I will give you a better example Onisan(ass) Ikebe(ass) But the environment on this argument is different from the example given again we use both interchanging no one is more used than the other The word ikebe got out from benin lexicon to nigeria music industry because it is more pleasing while pronouncing and sexy Again the environment we are arguing this fact has to be considered while you're relating it to another scenario We are arguing on the fact that benin and ife does not share connections so that is the environment we are arguing on So you answer in accordance to that environment and not outside it........ |
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by TAO11(f): 3:00pm On Apr 30, 2020 |
Edeyoung: Thank you! Just as "hair" means "Eto" in Edo language (and it didn't simply ater come at some point to mean hair). It is in a similar way that "Oba" has always mean "King" in the Yoruba language. It didn't come later to replace anything! (2) For number 2, read the attachment below, and tell me whether or not Ife and Benin have connections (with Ife being the father). 1 Like 1 Share
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Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by samuk: 3:28pm On Apr 30, 2020 |
Edeyoung: They like to confuse issues by parroting the word Yoruba that was created recently. Which of the tribes that now make up Yoruba introduced the word Oba into Benin lexicon? If they argue that it came with Oranmiyan from Ife, was Ife using the Oba title for their kings or Ooni. Do they have Oba in Ife or Ooni. The used of the Oba title is recorded in Benin history as far back as 1400s AD, can the Yoruba point to an earlier written account of the Yoruba history that shows the title of Oba was used in Yoruba land earlier than Benin. The Yoruba have to provide a written accounts that was written earlier than 1475 not some 1975 or 1984 fabrications that show that the title was being used in Yoruba land then. |
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by TAO11(f): 3:44pm On Apr 30, 2020 |
samuk: (1) Just like "Benin", "Edo", etc. were recent creations. (2) Ife. (3) Yes, Ife uses both till date in distinct contexts. The word "Oba" simply means "King". And this applies all over Yorubaland. The word "Ooni" does NOT mean "King". Rather, it means "Owner of ...". It is the royal praise-title for Ife kings. Other Yoruba kingdoms too have their own different royal praise-titles (4) Both, as explained in point (3). (5) Show me the record. Let's begin with you the claimant. And even if you can, etymology goes way back farther in time than wrtings. And we have all seen from an etymological analysis that the word "Oba" is not found in the Edo language. (6) Anyways, I am yet to see your 1475 record showing the word "Oba" for Benin Kings. Moreover, your mention of "1975 or 1984" is simply from the effect of your mythomania. I have already shown you an account written in the 1800s showing an ancient Yoruba use of the word "Oba" for the Alaafin Awole --- A Yoruba king of the 1700s This simply exposes your "1975 or 1984" claim as emanating from your lying tongue as usual. In any case, that's not the crux. The crux of the issue (WHICH I AM PREDICTNG YOU WILL IGNORE ) is that, etymology goes far, far, far, far back in time than written documents. And etymological analysis shows that while the word "Oba" is rooted in, original to, and indigenous to the Yoruba lexicon; it is no where to be found in the Edo lexicon. Fatuous liar, you got busted again as always! cc: Edeyoung 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by Edeyoung: 5:21pm On Apr 30, 2020 |
TAO11: At the end of it he said no heads were found |
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by TAO11(f): 5:34pm On Apr 30, 2020 |
Edeyoung: Lol! From the perspective of an archaeologist, the absence of human skulls, etc. disproves nothing about such burial practice. Rather, it is the absence of burial graves or pits that disproves such olden burial practice. Archaeologists understand that such human remains themselves could well have been exhumed for further sacred/ritual ascension rites soon after their burial. But guess what!? The archaeological excavation of the burial site in 1962 found the round burial pits. Again, guess what!? The number of burial pits found there in the 1960s is exactly the same number of Obas' heads mentioned by Egharevba in the 1940s. Weird crazy coincidence, right? Lol. But in all, you didnt answer my question at all. Again, is there connection or not from the facts you read?? 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by Edeyoung: 5:42pm On Apr 30, 2020 |
TAO11: TAO11: |
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by TAO11(f): 5:44pm On Apr 30, 2020 |
Edeyoung: ?? |
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by Edeyoung: 5:54pm On Apr 30, 2020 |
gregyboy: [color=#990000]this[color=#990000][/color |
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by TAO11(f): 6:02pm On Apr 30, 2020 |
Edeyoung: gregyboy isn't a historian. Lol. I'm simply asking you your take-away after independently examining those conclusions by those historians. Again, based on your independent reading, is there (or is there not) an ancient connection between Ife and Benin (with the Benin dynasty deriving from Ife) ?? 3 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by SilverSniper: 8:14pm On Apr 30, 2020 |
TAO11: I don't necessarily endorse everything AreaFada2 claimed at all, but this is a bit wide of the truth, not only with respect to Benin, but also with regard to Yorubaland. I won't get into the issue of the slave trade and the Yoruba and Benin areas in any detail here, because these issues have been studied in great detail already by several scholars, and instead I'll just make a brief comment. Although it is true that the slaves that Oyo exported were captured from surrounding groups - this export to the coast (particularly the "Slave Coast" area of west Africa) of slaves (to be later sold to Europeans) taken in wars by Oyo is mentioned in European documents from the mid-1600s onward - it is also true that during the Oyo civil war and the subsequent wars in Yorubaland in the 19th century, there was a significant increase in slaves of Yoruba origin that were being sold to European slave buyers (there were already some Yoruba slaves in the slave trade prior to this, as various European documents from earlier centuries attest to; some of these may have come from Ijebu, which is noted as selling slaves in European sources). I wouldn't say the Benin kingdom "did not participate" in the slave trade, but it was a very minor player compared to many other African kingdoms. The very strict restrictions on the slave-trade that Benin imposed - after the initial slave trade with the Portuguese that did occur for about three decades in the late 15th to the early 16th century - actually led to two centuries of there being practically no slaves exported from Benin to Europeans. Even after that two centuries, in the 18th century when the slave-trade did reemerge in Benin for some decades, the numbers involved were very small, especially when compared to some other prominent Nigerian and west African states. This is actually discussed and analyzed in detail in Ryder's 1969 book that you asked me about in that other thread, but there other scholars besides Ryder who reached a very similar conclusion independently of Ryder by simply looking at what the sources show. Regarding "food", the historian Samuel Johnson made the following claim in his book: "The origin of the Ijebus has been variously given ; one account makes them spring from the victims offered in sacrifice by the King of Benin to the god of the ocean, hence the term Ijebu from Ije-ibu, i.e., the food of the deep. The Ijebus themselves claim to have descended from Oba-nita, as they say of themselves, "Ogietiele, eru Obanita," i.e., Ogetiele, servants of Obanita. But who was this Oba-nita? Tradition says he also was a victim of sacrifice by the Olowu or King of Owu." - Samuel Johnson, The History of the Yorubas, pp. 18-19 A historian, Tunde Oduwobi, gives an interesting analysis of this ascription of servile origins to the Ijebu in his publication "Early Ìjèbú history: An analysis on demographic evolution and state formation" (2006). Oduwobi also notes in that article and in another article that, of course, the Ijebu had their own completely different traditions about their origins. |
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by kayfra: 10:24pm On Apr 30, 2020 |
gregyboy: Orhamiyan Read! |
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by samuk: 10:35pm On Apr 30, 2020 |
[quote author=SilverSniper post=89038931] I don't necessarily endorse everything AreaFada2 claimed at all, but this is a bit wide of the truth, not only with respect to Benin, but also with regard to Yorubaland. I won't get into the issue of the slave trade and the Yoruba and Benin areas in any detail here, because these issues have been studied in great detail already by several scholars, and instead I'll just make a brief comment. Although it is true that the slaves that Oyo exported were captured from surrounding groups - this export to the coast (particularly the "Slave Coast" area of west Africa) of slaves (to be later sold to Europeans) taken in wars by Oyo is mentioned in European documents from the mid-1600s onward - it is also true that during the Oyo civil war and the subsequent wars in Yorubaland in the 19th century, there was a significant increase in slaves of Yoruba origin that were being sold to European slave buyers (there were already some Yoruba slaves in the slave trade prior to this, as various European documents from earlier centuries attest to; some of these may have come from Ijebu, which is noted as selling slaves in European sources). I wouldn't say the Benin kingdom "did not participate" in the slave trade, but it was a very minor player compared to many other African kingdoms. The very strict restrictions on the slave-trade that Benin imposed - after the initial slave trade with the Portuguese that did occur for about three decades in the late 15th to the early 16th century - actually led to two centuries of there being practically no slaves exported from Benin to Europeans. Even after that two centuries, in the 18th century when the slave-trade did reemerge in Benin for some decades, the numbers involved were very small, especially when compared to some other prominent Nigerian and west African states. This is actually discussed and analyzed in detail in Ryder's 1969 book that you asked me about in that other thread, but there other scholars besides Ryder who reached a very similar conclusion independently of Ryder by simply looking at what the sources show. Regarding "food", the historian Samuel Johnson made the following claim in his book: "The origin of the Ijebus has been variously given ; one account makes them spring from the victims offered in sacrifice by the King of Benin to the god of the ocean, hence the term Ijebu from Ije-ibu, i.e., the food of the deep. The Ijebus themselves claim to have descended from Oba-nita, as they say of themselves, "Ogietiele, eru Obanita," i.e., Ogetiele, servants of Obanita. But who was this Oba-nita? Tradition says he also was a victim of sacrifice by the Olowu or King of Owu." - Samuel Johnson, The History of the Yorubas, pp. 18-19 A historian, Tunde Oduwobi, gives an interesting analysis of this ascription of servile origins to the Ijebu in his publication "Early Ìjèbú history: An analysis on demographic evolution and state formation" (2006). Oduwobi also notes in that article and in another article that, of course, the Ijebu had their own completely different traditions about their origins. Samuk: Please share the history of the various Yoruba tribes and clans as recorded by Yoruba historian themselves. |
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by AreaFada2: 11:11pm On Apr 30, 2020 |
SilverSniper: |
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by AreaFada2: 11:42pm On Apr 30, 2020 |
SilverSniper: I used the word "banned". Do you ban something that never existed? At least you have admitted that Benin imposed huge restrictions. I have mentioned it many times on threads here over the years. Narcotics is banned by virtually every country. Yet illegal narcotics trade worldwide is worth about $360 billion annually. Some say even more. Compare that to Nigeria's $29 billion budget for 2019. I have also mentioned the role my family played at some point in enforcing slave ban in the Empire. Fact is many slaves said to originate from Benin Kingdom were not Benin people. The history is clear of how Royal troops broke holding cells at Gwatto to free Benin speaking slaves, most likely victims of raids in Benin fringe villages. One such liberation caused an incident between an Oba and Europeans long long before 1897. Again I have mentioned this years ago. If Olaudah Equiano had not written a book in 1789, we would not have known his story. He identified himself as an Ibo and a citizen of Benin Kingdom. He narrated how he was captured in a raid by slave robbers in that book. A book anyone curious above slavery should have read by now. Benin needed men for war and maintaining the territories. Women to bear children. So selling slaves meant decimating the land. Even captured war slaves served better purposes in Benin: artisans, domestic, farmers and some even rose high in society depending on talent and opportunity. It was simple logic. TAO1 and others copy and paste copiously from various sources. They seem impressed by those. But I grew up in a house with a rich library with Ryder and other publications, books, journals and others on history. Not only that, history manuscripts for publication and lecture notes were prepared in my presence growing up. Long before internet. We actually had to read. Not lazily copy and paste from online. Considering the centuries slavery lasted, 15 million people shipped, assuming your few decades of slavery Benin participated in (doubtful anyway) is even true, isn't it still remarkable that against European pressure to get slaves and the bountiful reward from slavery, Benin managed such a ban for so long? TAO1 went into sacrifices, is there any notable ancient civilization that didn't do such sacrifices? From Germanic tribes, to Israelites, Egyptians, Mayan/native Americans to Abobaku killings in Yorubaland. They just bring in matters anyhow to derail sensible discourse. |
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by SilverSniper: 12:15am On May 01, 2020 |
AreaFada2: I wouldn't say it's "doubtful anyway". One of the earlier written sources to mention the Benin kingdom, Duarte Pacheco Pereira's Esmeraldo de Situ Orbis, which dates from the beginning of the 16th century (it was written between 1505 and 1508), notes that the Benin kingdom was "usually at war with its neighbours and takes many captives", which they sold to the Portuguese. However, later Portuguese sources from only about two decades into the 16th century indicate that Benin had restricted the slave trade heavily. Actually the king of Portugal at that time wrote a letter to the king of Benin requesting that the king of Benin "open his markets", by which he was referring to slave-markets. Part of the letter is quoted in Ryder's book. Benin did not lift the restrictions, and as a result the Portuguese gradually started to go west to the early Allada kingdom to obtain slaves. This is why I said about three decades. The Portuguese made contact with Benin in 1485, a slave trade later developed (although Benin also traded other things with the Portuguese at that time, particularly pepper) at some point between 1485 and the time that Pereira's book is referring to, but by the 1520s that early Benin-Portugal slave trade was basically dead. Anyway, I do not think there is so much disagreement in general in our ideas about this, more like differences in details. Your mention of captured slaves from wars most likely serving a productive role in Benin's economy is also something I would agree with, and is actually a fairly standard academic view (for example, an article about Benin's civil war that I referenced in another thread actually mentions this). |
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by Nobody: 2:50am On May 03, 2020 |
There is no such thing as etymology for Yoruba or even Edo languages. Indeed etymology is sort of the history of the written word. And we didn't have written languages until the colonial era. So any attempt at etymology is a 419 scam. I am disappointed that none of you was able to point this out before my intervention. The Yoruba have perfected deception, so you need to be wise to not fall for their tricks. West African etymology is 100% 419 business. |
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by Nobody: 3:05am On May 03, 2020 |
RamessesIV:If you want to fvck tao11 then go into a chatroom with him/her. Stop your ass kissing. And don't drag Edo history through the mud just because you want to get laid by some yoruba fat smelly pig who spends all his/her time on nairaland discussing Benin. According to these Yoruba the Edo are nothing but an insignificant minority, yet all the Yoruba do is talk about us and try to attach us to them by every means possible. Stop confusing the trash which you read online with reality. And stop thinking with your hormones. You very easily confuse ethnocentric Yoruba myths about Benin's past with actual Benin myths and of course you don't seem to see the difference between myth and history, like many Nigerians though. History relies on proof. That is the difference. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MqF5JhgX0g |
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by TAO11(f): 3:57am On May 03, 2020 |
Ghostwon5: RamessesIV come and see one of those of your own whom I was talking about some days ago. For him and others like him, you are not truly an Edo person if you are not a tribal bigot. You are not truly an Edo person if you do not habour hatred for the Yoruba person. That was precisely what gregyboy was calling your attention to in the link below when he insisted that you aren't truly Esan. https://www.nairaland.com/5824498/benin-ife-never-connections-more/1#89003944 He couldn't fathom the fact that you are an Edo person, and yet you do not hate the Yoruba person --- He struggled with the fact that you followed a Yoruba person (thet is, me) on Nairaland. For them, you must live and breathe hatred to qualify as a bonifide Edo. 2 Likes 1 Share
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Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by TAO11(f): 4:12am On May 03, 2020 |
Ghostwon5: Shut up your lying smelly wide rotten mouth! Etymology, has nothing peculiarly to do with writing. You think everyone here is as foolish as gregyboy who lick up your hairy stenchy dirty butthole? Africans somehow have no clue what their own words mean, unless it's written on some paper. What can be more ridiculous!? 3 Likes
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Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by Nobody: 6:27am On May 03, 2020 |
To the guy claiming to be Esan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MqF5JhgX0g The Esan traditional rulers recognize the Oba of Benin as their father ! I guess your internet-trash reading didn't tell you this. |
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by Nobody: 7:04am On May 03, 2020 |
Ghostwon5: |
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by TAO11(f): 7:26am On May 03, 2020 |
Ghostwon5: Shut up your lying smelly wide rotten mouth! Etymology, has nothing peculiarly to do with writing. You think everyone here is as foolish as gregyboy who lick up your hairy stenchy dirty butthole? Africans somehow have no clue what their own words mean, unless it's written on some paper. What can be more ridiculous!? 2 Likes 1 Share
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