Gregboy

Your friend needs to calm down with the aggression and the dates he's throwing around.
Several accounts published before his 1920 claims show records of your own people talking about Ife monarch origins through Oranmiyan, Eweka or Ekalederhen.

Here's a screenshot of Roupell's account of Bini & since your limit date is 1897, what date was Roupell's account published again? And there's more where that came from, just hang on.

P.S: I have to go back to read each of the accounts again in my library so it may take some time to post more. However, I won't do the hardwork you both should be doing and I'll limit my effort. You're the Bini and should be scouring the internet and libraries for your own records.

gregyboy:


The benins who wrote the history are they no the ones giving it to the yorubas



Bsnins were the ones who started this whole shit particularly the oba when they were still in the western region
Orun oba ado was first mentioned by egharevba in his book the Yoruba took upon themselves to bring the myth into life
And that's what we are facing now...

You already know the history of Egharevba and the circumstances he wrote the first edition of his book. Since then there have been numerous revisions.

Unless Benin people wake up and start taking their history serious by examining the wealth of materials available to them and start to write their history themselves pointing out the distortions currently being made by so called scholars, a time will come Benin children will be learning Benin history from the Yoruba revisionist versions.

How can someone point to a Benin artworks depicting a Nupe/Igala man and change it to a messager from Ife when Ife is not mentioned anywhere in Benin history during that period.

The Yoruba examine the vast European writings on Benin, saw the mention of Ogane kingdom in the east and claim it's Ife in the West.

The Benin people are now lethargic about their history and suffering from the fatigue of empire building, we seem not aware or are very unconcerned about the population ethnic politics that are being played around us using Benin history as tool.

The average Benin are far interested in travelling to Europe, America and other countries today than anything else, at this rate, we may soon become like the Jews who where all over Europe and America for millenniums without a homeland until 1949 because the arabs and muslims have taken over Israel in their absence. You can already see some frictions in areas of Edo lands that have sizeable populations of other tribes.

How can you be an Enogie and hardly resides in your domain, those they leased their lands to are now fighting them over their lands, just the way others are now fighting us over our history.

Today, the headquarter of christianity is the vertical in Rome and the Pope is the holiest Christian or man living but christianity didn't start in Rome and not by Europeans but by Jews in Jerusalem.

How did the Europeans manage to take over christianity and turned it to their private property, show me any jew that has been Pope for almost two thousand years of Catholic/Christian history.

OgboAto:
Gregboy

Your friend needs to calm down with the aggression and the dates he's throwing around.
Several accounts published before his 1920 claims show records of your own people talking about Ife monarch origins through Oranmiyan, Eweka or Ekalederhen.

Here's a screenshot of Roupell's account of Bini & since your limit date is 1897, what date was Roupell's account published again? And there's more where that came from, just hang on.

P.S: I have to go back to read each of the accounts again in my library so it may take some time to post more. However, I won't do the hardwork you both should be doing and I'll limit my effort. You're the Bini and should be scouring the internet and libraries for your own records.

The screenshot you presented without citing the date of publication actually questioned the origin of Oba of Benin narrative at the very bottom, but you cut that bit out.

The Yoruba themselves don't agree on one source of origin for Oduduwa, you guys should be working to reconcile the various inconsistent Yoruba versions of Oduduwa origin rather than spending more of your time discussing and distorting Benin history.

The Benin should be allowed to examine and correct the inconsistency and distortions in their history themselves, stop writing Ife over Benin when there was hardly any written accounts or connections between the two for centuries.

samuk:


The screenshot you presented without citing the date of publication actually questioned the Benin Oba Ife origin narrative at the very bottom but you cut that bit out.

The Yoruba don't agree on one source of origin for Oduduwa, you guys should be working to reconcile the various inconsistent Yoruba versions of Oduduwa origin rather than spending more of your time discussing and distorting Benin history.

It clearly states that it was Roupell's account.
It didn't question anything at the bottom but if you want to see the bottom then I got you.

OgboAto:


It clearly states that it was Roupell's account.
It didn't question anything at the bottom but if you want to see the bottom then I got you.

Why not cite the title of the book you screenshot and the year published for all to see.

Anybody can claim anything, that's why a specifically request for a publication between 1475 to 1897.

I could have requested for exact 400 years starting from 1475 to 1875, but decided to make it even easier by extending it to 1897, the year the old Benin empire came to an end.

Don't you find it odd that we are struggling to find a publication on Benin and Ife connection in the late 1890s?

Considering the importance of such relationships, there would have been numerous mention of it in the various Europeans accounts throughout the 1475 to 1897.

As of today the origin of Oduduwa have various versions with those that support them and those that disagree with them.

1. Oduduwa Benin origin through Ekaladerhan.

2. Oduduwa mecca origin

3. Oduduwa Ife origin

And other versions and myths.

One thing that has remained undisputed so far is there were no mention of these names in Benin written history for the first four hundred years.

gregyboy:



You again yea itsekiris werw yorubas sub grouped which we colonized just as eko,ekiti,ondo and osun the nupes took care of oyo the same nupes benins conquered at idah renamed the town ida
Yorubas has no history outside been conquered by other tribes the only people who conquered benin was the britsh throughout history

The Benin kingdom was never conquered

samuk:


Why not cite the title of the book you screenshot and the year published for all to see.

Anybody can claim anything, that's why a specifically request for a publication between 1475 to 1897.

I could have requested for exact 400 years starting from 1475 to 1875, but decided to make it even easier by extending it to 1897, the year the old Benin empire came to an end.

Don't you find it odd that we are struggling to find a publication on Benin and Ife connection in the late 1890s?

Considering the importance of such relationships, there would have been numerous mention of it in the various Europeans accounts throughout the 1475 to 1897.

As of today the origin of Oduduwa have various versions with those that support them and those that disagree with them.

1. Oduduwa Benin origin through Ekaladerhan.

2. Oduduwa mecca origin

3. Oduduwa Ife origin

And other versions and myths.

One thing that has remained undisputed so far is there were no mention of these names in Benin written history for the first four hundred years.

You want me to cite the Roupell's book in which that was stated?
There's no difficulty in finding records between your time frame with such details. It is difficult because you won'r read.

samuk:


You already know the history of Egharevba and the circumstances he wrote the first edition of his book. Since then there have been numerous revisions.

Unless Benin people wake up and start taking their history serious by examining the wealth of materials available to them and start to write their history themselves pointing out the distortions currently being made by so called scholars, a time will come Benin children will be learning Benin history from the Yoruba revisionist versions.

How can someone point to a Benin artworks depicting a Nupe/Igala man and change it to a messager from Ife when Ife is not mentioned anywhere in Benin history during that period.

The Yoruba examine the vast European writings on Benin, saw the mention of Ogane kingdom in the east and claim it's Ife in the West

The Benin people are now lethargic about their history and suffering from the fatigue of empire building, we seem not aware or are very unconcerned about the population ethnic politics that are being played around us using Benin history as tool.

The average Benin are far interested in travelling to Europe, America and other countries today than anything else, at this rate, we may soon become like the Jews who where all over Europe and America for millenniums without a homeland until 1949 because the arabs and muslims have taken over Israel in their absence. You can already see some frictions in areas of Edo lands that have sizeable populations of other tribes.

How can you be an Enogie and hardly resides in your domain, those they leased their lands to are now fighting them over their lands, just the way others are now fighting us over our history.

Today, the headquarter of christianity is the vertical in Rome and the Pope is the holiest Christian or man living but christianity didn't start in Rome and not by Europeans but by Jews in Jerusalem.

How did the Europeans manage to take over christianity and turned it to their private property, show me any jew that has been Pope for almost two thousand years of Catholic/Christian history.

My guy, Yoruba did not claim you. It has been you people claiming Yoruba. A foreign author has provided a chronology of your claims of Yoruba & then sudden rigmaroles with ever changing stories of who Ekalederhen was and what he actually did. It has been you people who have been unstable forever. It was not Yoruba that forced your king to tell them things about his Ife origin & it was not Yoruba that forced your king to attend Yoruba Oba meetings & it wss not Yoruba that forced your Oba to take white researchers into the palace & talk them into how he used to say prayers for himself & Yoruba kings. Na una start am. Yoruba barely knew about Bini stories until your people began telling colonialists all sorts. Even Samuel Johnson who published way earlier than any Bini man had little knowledge of Bini story. Yoruba is not your problem, you are your own problem.

P.S: the Jews did not start Christianity, Romans [who were Europeans] designed, structured, defined, started & spread Christianity. Christianity is of European origins & an European religion.

Eblaze:


The Benin kingdom was never conquered

the benin kingdom was tributary at various times to the itsekiri, akure and Ibadan.

TAO11:


Thank you bro!

But I noticed bro that you appear to be waivering between two mutually exclusive thoughts.


You appear one one hand to be willing to concede that the story of the man Oduduwa literally dropping from the sky could not possibly have been "completely true" (or factual).

While you also on the other hand seem to want to (at the same time) hold on to the story as true, just because other people ("even the Bible" ) have some similar fantastic stories and lots of people do not contest these stories.

May be the story is true and may be it is not, but my argument is simply that we need to stop saying that it is TRUE just BECAUSE other cultures, religions, and civilizations also have similar fantastic stories which many people accept as true.

And also to stop saying that it is TRUE just BECAUSE it has been so passed down to us.

No, these two do not in any way constitute evidence upon which to really accept the story (or any story for that matter) as TRUE.

If the story is indeed true, then it should be because available EVIDENCE says so.

But unfortunately or fortunately, available EVIDENCE as examined by scholars of Yoruba History as shown demonstrably that that story, as it is, is actually not the case.

I hope to share some light below, in due course, on why this foregoing contrary conclusion is the case.

Cheers!

I think most cultures of the world have a deal with mysticism. Using symbols, metaphors and allegories to pass messages. Not to be taken literally like the religious community will do. I think this stories exist because of too much spirituality embedded in them too. What those cultures can't explain then, they will cover with the veil of spirituality and worshiped. This may be forgiven then, prolly because critical thinking was not the order of the day, scienctific thinking was a new concept of reasoning, even evident till around the late 18th century in Europe, where scientific findings must either resonate with the church views or be confiscated and the author of such is considered heretic even further down to the period of Socrates, Plato and the likes.

Another, is informations tends to get diluted, but the ego preserved, most especially historical events of all cultures of the world, each alludes to a time in their histories when they were Victors , with so much embellishments. All in all, these tales, might not be true tale, either it is garbed with mysticism or just another storyline the keep ones cutlure alive, at least with a story!

Also we humans tend to be so obsessed with a saviour figure

OgboAto:



My guy, Yoruba did not claim you. It has been you people claiming Yoruba. A foreign author has provided a chronology of your claims of Yoruba & then sudden rigmaroles with ever changing stories of who Ekalederhen was and what he actually did. It has been you people who have been unstable forever. It was not Yoruba that forced your king to tell them things about his Ife origin & it was not Yoruba that forced your king to attend Yoruba Oba meetings & it wss not Yoruba that forced your Oba to take white researchers into the palace & talk them into how he used to say prayers for himself & Yoruba kings. Na una start am. Yoruba barely knew about Bini stories until your people began telling colonialists all sorts. Even Samuel Johnson who published way earlier than any Bini man had little knowledge of Bini story. Yoruba is not your problem, you are your own problem.

P.S: the Jews did not start Christianity, Romans [who were Europeans] designed, structured, defined, started & spread Christianity. Christianity is of European origins & an European religion.

We seem to be going round in circles without you citing your screenshot with the date it was published. Your screenshot also called into question, the claim that Benin got its name from Oranmiyan who called the land Ile-Ibinu.

Like I said before, oral history is fraught with inconsistencies, that is the reason I am interested in eyewitness written accounts of any period being discussed.

I will not go into the debate of the history of christianity with you, the bible itself is filled with Jewish history being presented in the name of christianity.

Being a Christian means to be like Christ. Christ was a jew and practiced the Jewish tradition and culture. The bible is filled with Jewish history, many aspects of Jewish culture, myths and allegories being parroted by religious zealots as real events that happened.

samuk:


You already know the history of Egharevba and the circumstances he wrote the first edition of his book. Since then there have been numerous revisions.

Unless Benin people wake up and start taking their history serious by examining the wealth of materials available to them and start to write their history themselves pointing out the distortions currently being made by so called scholars, a time will come Benin children will be learning Benin history from the Yoruba revisionist versions.

How can someone point to a Benin artworks depicting a Nupe/Igala man and change it to a messager from Ife when Ife is not mentioned anywhere in Benin history during that period.

The Yoruba examine the vast European writings on Benin, saw the mention of Ogane kingdom in the east and claim it's Ife in the West.

The Benin people are now lethargic about their history and suffering from the fatigue of empire building, we seem not aware or are very unconcerned about the population ethnic politics that are being played around us using Benin history as tool.

The average Benin are far interested in travelling to Europe, America and other countries today than anything else, at this rate, we may soon become like the Jews who where all over Europe and America for millenniums without a homeland until 1949 because the arabs and muslims have taken over Israel in their absence. You can already see some frictions in areas of Edo lands that have sizeable populations of other tribes.

How can you be an Enogie and hardly resides in your domain, those they leased their lands to are now fighting them over their lands, just the way others are now fighting us over our history.

Today, the headquarter of christianity is the vertical in Rome and the Pope is the holiest Christian or man living but christianity didn't start in Rome and not by Europeans but by Jews in Jerusalem.

How did the Europeans manage to take over christianity and turned it to their private property, show me any jew that has been Pope for almost two thousand years of Catholic/Christian history.

The funny thing is the oba was the one who identified the sculpture as an ife art......

This is what happens when politics goes wrong



This is the earliest documentation about benin by samuel johson


I believe this write up was a mistake identity.... Benin was known as ado by yorubas and not benin.....
Aside the above......

Rexamined the record of oromiyan and benin in the earliest documentation


The first two was what samule johson wrote about benin from the yoruba people
But as a matter of fact benin was known as ado by the yoruba outlooking that aspect we can see how oromiyan was identified


The third screenshot was the revisionist version which began to occur in the late century

The last is egharevba formulation


All i see here is that benins were the ones who put the food in the yoruba people's mouth

gregyboy:


The funny thing is the oba was the one who identified the sculpture as an ife art......

This is what happens when politics goes wrong



This is the earliest documentation about benin by samuel johson


I believe this write up was a mistake identity.... Benin was known as ado by yorubas and not benin.....
Aside the above......

Rexamined the record of oromiyan and benin in the earliest documentation

If you read the screenshot by OgboAto, you will notice the inconsistency about how Benin got its name from Ibinu to the claim of Ile-Ibinu.

The account claimed Eweka was the one that came to Benin not Oranmiyan as currently being claimed.

Oral history could pose serious problems for those that are interested in real history devoid of myths and unsubstantiated claims. But Luckily for Benin history there are written eyewitness accounts to examine and interrogate our oral history.

samuk:

We seem to be going round in circles without you citing your screenshot with the date it was published. Your screenshot also called into question, the claim that Benin got its name from Oranmiyan who called the land Ile-Ibinu

.

Why are you asking me to cite Roupell's work when you & other Bini folks have talked about it endlessly on this thread or did Mr. Roupell publish more than one Bini account? As for the Ile-Ibinu, it originated from you people. All the accounts Yoruba have ran with on Bini have been provided by the Bini & your Kings also showed validations of it. Let me give you a quick sample: there's the gist that Oba Bini are not to enter ife except when dead, your previous king validated this by staying in Modakeke when he attended Yoruba Oba meetings in colonial times. Now your new King when he visited Ife, I was at the family compound meeting when message reached from the palace that the elders needed to leave. Your king stayed along Ondo road & didn't come in the entire time until certain chiefs went to get him & he stopped at Oranmiyan's shrine [I nor dey there so I do not know what they did there] & used the route along Oranmiyan's settlement into Ife. Exactly the same way your King did when he came to Ife during Adesoji Aderemi's time.

Note that it was not Yoruba that asked both Kings to come & neither was it Yoruba who asked him to observe the tradition of staying outside of Ife. I went to the palace the day this king your present king visited & he didn't just visit, he also observed certain rites inside the palace. He could have just said no to all of these things & made his visit a strict 'Ooni hollaring' visit & left. My whole point is, na una done cause these things, Yoruba nor get any prerogative to ask or force you or your kings to these things but you say it and do it.

Finally I was surprised that a lot of Ife both educated & non-educated were aware of the revisionisms coming from Bini and everyone was surprised that 1. The Bini king came & that 2. He performed rites & 3. He wasn't in a rush to greet and leave but visited places for sight seeing [no rites were done & I guess he just wanted to see things]. This one thing was what took the revisionism out of the minds of many Ife people. In fact your Oba brought about 3 Hiace [hummer bus] load of Bini girls dressed in beads & red wrappers mostly fair in complexion. I nor know if they were his wives, daughters, relatives or just people but that also raised curiosity of those who wanted to have Bini chicks.

Like I said before oral history is fraught with inconsistencies, that is the reason I am interested in eyewitness written accounts of any period being discussed.

I will not go into the debate of the history of christianity with you, the bible itself is filled with Jewish history being presented in the name of christianity.

Being a Christian means to be like Christ. Christ was a jew and practiced the Jewish tradition and culture. The bible is filled with Jewish history and many aspects of Jewish culture.

Jesus & his guys did not organize a religion with rituals. It was the Romans who started the idea of churches, rituals, trinity, cross deification & all of the ideologies of what we call Christianity today. All of the Churches in the Bible that Paul wrote to were Roman/Greek churches. Jesus himself did not start an organized religion & neither did his disciples, the Romans started it.

samuk:


If you read the screenshot by OgboAto, you will notice the inconsistency about how Benin got its name from Ibinu to the claim of Ile-Ibinu.

The account claimed Eweka was the one that came to Benin not Oranmiyan as currently being claimed.

Oral history could pose serious problems for those that are interested in real history devoid of myths and unsubstantiated claims. But Luckily for Benin history there are written eyewitness accounts to examine and interrogate our oral history.

Chief that account was given by your people to Roupell.

If you check other accounts in different periods, some said it was Oronmiyan, some said it was Ekalederhen.


Now fast forward to 1950s when you people began to change narratives, the accounts were not stable & you wonder why or what the problem is with Bini folks.

samuk:


If you read the screenshot by OgboAto, you will notice the inconsistency about how Benin got its name from Ibinu to the claim of Ile-Ibinu.

The account claimed Eweka was the one that came to Benin not Oranmiyan as currently being claimed.

Oral history could pose serious problems for those that are interested in real history devoid of myths and unsubstantiated claims. But Luckily for Benin history there are written eyewitness accounts to examine and interrogate our oral history.

Yea i was thought that in primary school here in benin........

That benin and yorubas were brothers who first settled in ife benin(eweka) later moved south to the present benin city were he founded his kingdom


Behind this political play i smell a little minority complex attached to it

OgboAto:


Chief that account was given by your people to Roupell.

If you check other accounts in different periods, some said it was Oronmiyan, some said it was Ekalederhen.


Now fast forward to 1950s when you people began to change narratives, the accounts were not stable & you wonder why or what the problem is with Bini folks.

Can i see the Roupell's work

When was the earliest writing of benin-ife connection in contemporary time


When was it first mentioned from either both side what year and who mentioned it......



This can help us break down were the history began

gregyboy:


Can i see the Roupell's work

Roupell's papers are mostly reports he got from locals & they're in the archives at Enugu & Britain.

gregyboy:


Can i see the Roupell's work

The reason OgboAto is reluctant to site the book he got the screenshot from is because that is not Roupell's work but the criticism of it by someone else.

If he had the actual Roupell's book, he would have cited it already.

You can now see the inconsistencies in the various accounts of the origin of Benin Obas, from Eweka, Oranmiyan back to Ekaladerhan.

If Oduduwa is not a mythical figure, his origin is also fraught in inconsistencies.

gregyboy:
When was the earliest writing of benin-ife connection in contemporary time


When was it first mentioned from either both side what year and who mentioned it......



This can help us break down were the history began

This paper attempts to provide an overview of the works written on Bini history. Apart from Roupell's paper, it appears that the first work written on Bini was by Egharevba & his fellow Bini brothers much later.

samuk:


The reason OgboAto is reluctant to site the book he got the screenshot from is because that is not Roupell's work but the criticism of it by someone else.

If he had the actual Roupell's book, he would have cited it already

You can now see the inconveniences in the various accounts, from Eweka, Oranmiyan back to Ekaladerhan.

If Oduduwa is not a mythical figure, his origin is also fraught in inconsistencies.

You are very difficult to do with yet you nor sabi anything. You're an airhead yet you rabble-rouse a lot.

If you be person wey dey calm down you would know that Roupell did not write or publish a book but he interviewed locals, wrote what he got from them verbatim & sent them to the British government. He did this for Bini first & at later points, certain Yoruba towns like Akure. I got that screenshot from a book that quoted him. If you're so pressed for Roupell or free knowledge on the internet spend that your $2000 on getting archival data on Bini from Britain, Enugu & Ibadan archives.

Gregboy

[quote author=OgboAto post=89253422][/quote]

What you screenshot is not Roupell's work as requested by gregyboy, nice try.

OgboAto:


You are very difficult to do with yet you nor sabi anything. You're an airhead yet you rabble-rouse a lot.

If you be person wey dey calm down you would know that Roupell did not write or publish a book but interview locals, wrote what he got from them verbatim & sent them to the British government. He did this for Bini first & at later points, certain Yoruba towns like Akure. I got that screenshot from a book that quoted his work for word. If you're so pressed for Roupell or free knowledge on the internet spend that your $2000 on getting archival data on Bini from Britain, Enugu & Ibadan archives.

I made a simple request for the written accounts of Benin history from 1475 to 1897. If you can't provide any, say so, no beating around the Bush. All the screenshots you have provided so far were all written after 1897. No need to fight over it. Cheers.

samuk:


What you screenshot is not Roupell's work as requested by gregyboy, nice try.

Shake my damn head.
The screenshots are in response to his post about finding the starting point of literatures on Bini history. I did not upload them as Roupell's papers.

Dude, if you had $2000 then you will be able to afford a massive quantity of copies of archival data on Bini right from 1897 till date. In fact you'll be an authority on Bini history and your chiefs will come to you for consultations on matters of history.

Why not spend that your money on Engu, Ibadan & British archives? It will do you a lot of good rather than jumping up & down the pages of NL for knowledge from people with zero knowledge to share in return.

samuk:


I made a simple request for the written accounts of Benin history from 1475 to 1897. If you can't provide any, say so, no beating around the Bush. All the screenshot you have provided so far were all written after 1897. No need to fight over it. Cheers.

Hell O Hell.

Roupell's Official papers has quoted in the screenshot were written in 1897.

OgboAto:



Hell O Hell.

Roupell's Official papers has quoted in the screenshot were written in 1897.

You don't actually have the Roupell's Official papers but the book that was written after 1897 that cites the report. No problem, I will look elsewhere for the 1897 report.

Since no one was able to meet the $2000 challenge, it's now off the table. Cheers.

samuk:


Earlier Itsekiris nobility that were exposed to western education were all Benin princes. The entire Itsekiris nobility including the monarch are all Benin descendants.

earlier Benin princes exposed to education were all Yoruba. The Benin palace was a big complex housing over 50 thousand people and Yoruba was their lingua franca. The edo people recently overwhelmed Benin from the suburbs.

OgboAto:



This paper attempts to provide an overview of the works written on Bini history. Apart from Roupell's paper, it appears that the first work written on Bini was by Egharevba & his fellow Bini brothers much later.

Did Roupell's write anything about benin and ife connection,

Egharevba works was over influenced.....
When i mean over influence i mean the over with all emphasis


Egharevba was born in ondo by a benin-akure chief who had reside in ondo by the orders of the oba to oversee economic activities and he later married an ondo woman, egharevba had later finished is primary school in ondo before returning to benin
He later went to the University of ibadan the only university at then nigeria,and was also later crowned a benin chief
After his masters program he needed to further his studies for his phd level and before any admission can be given. He needed a publication of its own
Before he could qualify to study for his phd
He decided to write on benin history.....
The oba had influenced his writing as a chief in the palace for his political ambitions
While going to publish it at the ibadan printing press he was asked to favour his writings to the yorubas after doing it before his book was published in his subsequent books he tried to correct his first edition but no one took him serious again except the edo people.....

lawani:
earlier Benin princes exposed to education were all Yoruba. The Benin palace was a big complex housing over 50 thousand people and Yoruba was their lingua franca. The edo people recently overwhelmed Benin from the suburbs.

Nigga talk with fact,

Ateast if you can't site articles bring something convincing or get lost


Everyone is not correct untill he proves himself correcr.........

samuk:


You don't actually have the Roupell's Official papers but the book that was written after 1897 that cites the report. No problem, I will look elsewhere for the 1897 report.

Since no one was able to meet the $2000 challenge, it's now off the table. Cheers.

No one, I mean no one is interested in your $2K. Spend it on getting a better education.
And the book I extracted it from was written in 1897.