₦airaland Forum

TAO12:
(1) You've already been crushed beyond remedy on the "Oba" argument -- you were crushed both as "Edeyoung" and also as "gregyboy".

There is no point beating a dead horse on that.

(2a) IFa (which you Edos call IHa, just as you call UFe as UHe) goes in syn with Olokun.

(i) Evidence of this claim from Yoruba perspective is as follows:

The Yoruba praise Ifa as follows: Ifa-Olokun a soro d'ayo.

(ii) Evidence of this claim from Edo perspective is as follows:

Refer to the attached image from page 47 of Norma Rosen's "Chalk Iconography in Olokun Worship" with the following accompanying notes:

*DIVINATION PLATE (IHA OKPAN) WITH OLOKUN DIVINATION TOOLS SUCH AS COWRIES AND COINS. -- p.47.

My Note: In Yoruba religion, the "divination plate" is known as "okpon Ifa".

In the light of the fact that you've eventually admitted (in the link below) that Olokun was indeed introduced to the Edos by Yorubas; Ifa which goes in sync with Olokun was therefore also introduced with it to the Edos by the Yorubas.

(2b) Moreover, "Orunmila" who is unanimously (agreed by both Yoruba and Edo) as the greatest deified-Ifa priest of all time has a Yoruba name.

Can you tell us the meaning of Orunmila in Edo language. Break it down.

(3) Youve bee crushed at this link where you eventually admitted that Olokun was indeed introduced to the Edos by the Yorubas.

https://www.nairaland.com/5910322/olokun-worship-indigenous-benin-other/1#90661084

cc: MetaPhysical, BabaRamota1980

gregyboy:
Keep it short, am not edeyoung you bigot

TAO12:
You're going in circles now perhaps because the issue here is bigger than you and your hero, Etinosa who has been beaten blue and black in this.

The idea that Lagos was conquered is an interpretation which, in fact, does not gel with the earliest known eyewitness report (Ulsheimer, 1603), nor with the generally well-known historical realities of the then Lagos.

The account of Ulsheimer (1603) indicates clearly that what has been often widely interpreted as a conquest of Lagos by the Binis is in fact a misinterepretation.

On the contrary, the report indicates that the Binis must have settled in Lagos pre-1603 -- that is , prior to the conflict alluded to in that report -- and as such the conflict it talks about can not possibly be an imperial attempt to settle in Lagos to take it.

Moreover, the historical fact of the early beginings of European trade on the coast of Lagos (pre-1600) is an obvious corroboration to the beginnings of Benin's presence (an active participant in the coastal trade) in the region pre-1600. This is true for many other immigrant groups too apart from Benin.

The foregoing consideration of these two facts (i.e. the report of Ulsheimer(1603) and the early beginnings of European trade in Lagos) supports the aspect of the Lagos traditional account (and not the Benin traditional account) which holds that the settling in of the Binis et al. in Lagos [pre-1600s] was via a peaceful infiltration -- i.e. trade.

This same consideration also supports another aspect of the Lagos traditional account which holds that the [post-1600] conflicts in Lagos [one of which Ulsheimer(1603) talks about] relates simply to trade-induced violence long, long after all immigrant groups had settled in peacefully for trade purposes.

Refer to the attached for details on this.

Furthermore, while there is also nothing in Ulsheimer's(1603) report to even suggest that the first king of Lagos is a Bini (as the Bini traditional account holds); linguistic clues ("Ashipa" ) indicate that the first king of Lagos is of Yoruba descent. Moreover, an independent 1920s non-Yoruba and non-Bini account also confirms this about Ashipa being a Yoruba royalty from Isheri.

In addition to these, the custom of burying the kings' heads in Lagos and their remaining body in Benin although suggests connection with Benin (i.e. a maternal and a political connection as I have once shown), it does indeed confirm Lagos to be the paternal homeland of Lagos kings.

And the Benin traditional account finally finds its way to the dustbin.

cc: RuggedSniper, MetaPhysical, lawani, gomojam, babtoundey, Moneywomen17, sesan85

RuggedSniper:
Absolutely! @TAO12... Even right up to the 1910s, the HEADS of ALL Obas of Benin were BURIED in Ile Ife at the OBA ADO GROVE (In Yoruba, ADO=EDO) to indicate their paternal lineage via Oranmiyan. Oba Eweka was born of an Edo woman of noble origin. The Ooni of Ife in 2018 wanted to show Oba Eweka the 2nd of Benin Kingdom where the heads of Bini Obas were buried on his first visit to Ife, but there was limited time.


2. The HEADS of the kings of Eko were buried in EKO as you have also said in your post. One love to all the Yoruba and Bini-Edo peoples! Cheers.

RuggedSniper:
Absolutely! @TAO12... Even right up to the 1910s, the HEADS of ALL Obas of Benin were BURIED in Ile Ife at the OBA ADO GROVE (In Yoruba, ADO=EDO) to indicate their paternal lineage via Oranmiyan. Oba Eweka was born of an Edo woman of noble origins. The Ooni of Ife in 2018 wanted to show Oba Eweka the 2nd of Benin Kingdom where the heads of Bini Obas were buried on his first official visit to Ife, but there was limited time. 2. The HEADS of the kings of Eko were buried in EKO as you have also said in your post. One love to all the Yoruba and Bini-Edo peoples! Cheers.

TAO12:
Yes that's absolutely correct about Orun Oba Ado [the custom stopped before Ovanramwen(1897) though] and about the Lagos burial.

I have written at some great lenght on the Orun Oba Ado burial site at the following link:

https://www.nairaland.com/5761595/benin-kingdom-edo-state-remained/4#88240113

The following attachment relates to the Lagos burial.

Both customs point, however, to the fact that Ife and Lagos are the paternal homeland of the dynastic founders of Benin and Lagos monarchies respectively.

RuggedSniper:
Thanks @TAO12 for the Lagos burial info here! I've learned from you and will stay in touch. By the way... my late maternal grandma was from Lagos Island as well, and her birth mother who was a chief and an Awolowo political loyalist had links with the Ogboni based on the outfit/shawl she wore in a well-preserved 1950s picture that I first saw in 2008. It was my mum who told me what it was. The historic 1950s picture of my bespectacled maternal great-grandma got missing all of a sudden, and my mum may have destroyed it in 2009 because of her xtian faith.

TAO12:
You're going in circles now perhaps because the issue here is bigger than you and your hero, Etinosa who has been beaten blue and black in this.

The idea that Lagos was conquered is an interpretation which, in fact, does not gel with the earliest known eyewitness report (Ulsheimer, 1603), nor with the generally well-known historical realities of the then Lagos.

The account of Ulsheimer (1603) indicates clearly that what has been often widely interpreted as a conquest of Lagos by the Binis is in fact a misinterepretation.

On the contrary, the report indicates that the Binis must have settled in Lagos pre-1603 -- that is , prior to the conflict alluded to in that report -- and as such the conflict it talks about can not possibly be an imperial attempt to settle in Lagos to take it.

Moreover, the historical fact of the early begginings of European trade on the coast of Lagos (pre-1600) is an obvious corroboration to the beginnings of Benin's presence (an active participant in the coastal trade) in the region pre-1600. This is true for many other immigrant groups too apart from Benin.

The foregoing consideration of these two facts (i.e. the report of Ulsheimer(1603) and the early beginnings of European trade in Lagos) supports the aspect of the Lagos traditional account (and not the Benin traditional account) which holds that the settling in of the Binis et al. in Lagos [pre-1600s] was via a peaceful infiltration -- i.e. trade.

This same consideration also supports another aspect of the Lagos traditional account which holds that the [post-1600] conflicts in Lagos [one of which Ulsheimer(1603) talks about] relates simply to trade-induced violence long, long after all immigrant groups had settled in peacefully for trade purposes.

Refer to the attached for details on this.

Furthermore, while there is also nothing in Ulsheimer's(1603) report to even suggest that the first king of Lagos is a Bini (as the Bini traditional account holds); linguistic clues ("Ashipa" ) indicate that the first king of Lagos is of Yoruba descent. Moreover, an independent 1920s non-Yoruba and non-Bini account also confirms this about Ashipa being a Yoruba royalty from Isheri.

In addition to these, the custom of burying the kings' heads in Lagos and their remaining body in Benin although suggests connection with Benin (i.e. a maternal and a political connection as I have once shown), it does indeed confirm Lagos to be the paternal homeland of Lagos kings.

And the Benin traditional account finally finds its way to the dustbin.

cc: RuggedSniper, MetaPhysical, lawani, gomojam, babtoundey, Moneywomen17, sesan85

RuggedSniper:
Absolutely! @TAO12... Even right up to the 1910s, the HEADS of Obas of Benin were BURIED in Ile Ife at the OBA ADO GROVE (In Yoruba, ADO=EDO) to indicate their paternal lineage via Oranmiyan. Oba Eweka was born of an Edo woman of noble origin. The Ooni of Ife in 2018 wanted to show Oba Eweka the 2nd of Benin Kingdom where the heads of Bini Obas were buried on his first visit to Ife, but there was limited time. 2. The HEADS of the kings of Eko were buried in EKO as you have also said in your post. One love to all the Yoruba and Bini-Edo peoples! Cheers.

TAO12:
You seem to have missed my earlier clarification bro. See link below:

https://www.nairaland.com/5846195/benins-owners-ogboni-confraternity-olokun/23#90678106

TAO11:
(A) I have already demonstrated how the Bini damage control of "Aisikpa-hienbore" is dead on arrival. It is an after-the-effect explanation to account for the obvious hole in the Benin account.

The Benin account (unlike the Lagos account) claims that "Ashipa" is the son or grand son (they can't be sure which one it is, and I wonder why for such a crucial information) of the then Oba of Benin.

The obvious hole in this Benin account is that the name "Ashipa" -- which is clearly a popular and ancient Yoruba name (simply meaning "leader") -- is not found anywhere in Edo names.

The traditional Bini attempt to patch-up this linguistic embarrasment is to claim that his name is originally "Aisikpa-hienbore", but later changed.

This patch-work attempt still fails nevertheless, because its seams shows it to be an after-the-effect patch work.

This apparent seams which exposes this attempt to be an after-the-effect patch-work is, in fact, the meaning of the proposed "Aisikpa-hienbore" itself. "Aisikpa-hienbore" simply means "We shall not desert this place".

Since this can not possibly or logically be a person's name -- by any stretch of the imagination -- as no one names anyone "we shall not desert this place"; it therefore becomes clear that the best after-the-effect remedy to this embarrasment still turns out to be a colossal failure.

What is then true in this regards is the Lagos account which maintains clearly that the first king's name is always "Ashipa", and that he is an Awori-Yoruba royalty from Isheri.

This account (unlike the Bini one) has no hole in it, as the name "Ashipa" is a widespread and ancient name among the Yorubas.

(B) I have, my self, already stated this repeatedly because it does not support your point in any way, shape, or form.

Josua Ulseimer's account only corroborates the Lagos account which states that long after the Binis (and others) have settled in peacefully in their respective region of the then Lagos, violent [trade] conflicts between the Bini immigrant group [et al.] and the host (the Awori) eventually broke out.

Josua Ulsheimer's account talks of a fenced-settlement on "an island" where the Benin party to the conflict was based.

This base has been shown to be on the same Iddo Island where the Binis had originally settled in. R. Smith (1988:73).

Important Note: The then Lagos is not one island. Rather, it comprises of separate islands (such as the small island of Iddo and the larger island of Isale-Eko among others), as well as hinterlands (such as Isheri and Ebute Meta among others).

Also, Ulsheimer's actual account (translated) simply mentioned "an island", not your so-called "Lagos Island". Lol.

davidnazee:
[s]You really are pained by Benin suzerainty over Lagos.. It seems to be a stain on your fake heritage and you can't wipe it away.. sorry oo.

You keep translating Ulsheimer's sojourn is Lagos in anyway that fits your foolish narrative.. Please can you also translate the part that say "Ulsheimer served in the Benin Army in its war against Lagos".. Since you keep denying Benin fought any war in Lagos, can you explain that too?[/s]

TAO12:
I didn't ask for tears. Instead, I asked for contentions in my analysis.

davidnazee:
What contention when you cannot comprehend anything? I wonder if you quarrel with the internet or historical archives because everywhere you look always says Benin conquered Aworis settlements (not Lagos because Lagos wasn't in existence then as "Lagos" )

The dissidents in the attachment refers to the Aworis your tribe.

davidnazee:
i

TAO12:
An interesting question:

Do you know what these 3 individuals (Oranmiyan, Awolowo, and Tao) have in common in relation to the Edos' Kingdom??

gregyboy:
TAO11 TAO12 has gone mad

TAO12:
(1) You've already been crushed beyond remedy on the "Oba" argument -- you were crushed both as "Edeyoung" and also as "gregyboy".

There is no point beating a dead horse on that.

(2a) IFa (which you Edos call IHa, just as you call UFe as UHe) goes in syn with Olokun.

(i) Evidence of this claim from Yoruba perspective is as follows:

The Yoruba praise Ifa as follows: Ifa-Olokun a soro d'ayo.

(ii) Evidence of this claim from Edo perspective is as follows:

Refer to the attached image from page 47 of Norma Rosen's "Chalk Iconography in Olokun Worship" with the following accompanying notes:

*DIVINATION PLATE (IHA OKPAN) WITH OLOKUN DIVINATION TOOLS SUCH AS COWRIES AND COINS. -- p.47.

My Note: In Yoruba religion, the "divination plate" is known as "okpon Ifa".

In the light of the fact that you've eventually admitted (in the link below) that Olokun was indeed introduced to the Edos by Yorubas; Ifa which goes in sync with Olokun was therefore also introduced with it to the Edos by the Yorubas.

(2b) Moreover, "Orunmila", who is unanimously agreed (by both Yoruba and Edo) as the greatest deified-Ifa priest of all time, has a Yoruba name.

Can you tell us the meaning of "Orunmila" in Edo language? Break it down.

(3) You've been crushed at this link where you eventually admitted that Olokun was indeed introduced to the Edos by the Yorubas.

https://www.nairaland.com/5910322/olokun-worship-indigenous-benin-other/1#90661084

cc: MetaPhysical, BabaRamota1980

TAO12:
Yes oo, emi l'omo k'a f'okpa wa, k'a f'aje wa, k'a f'ogede-gede owo wa oko de Isheri Olofin.

Yeah, I believe so about Olu. But that bro is a die- hard Hebrew wanna-be for interesting reasons.

The name "Eko" is a phono-semantic matching of Yoruba and Edo from the earlier original Yoruba name of the "Lagos" settlement, "Oko".

Talking about ownership, as far as the historical evidence is concerned, the "Lagos" region was first settled by the Aworis.

No doubt some Binis, Ijebus, and others who later came to be attracted there for trade purposes, did become absorbed.

TAO12:
Yes oo, emi l'omo k'a f'okpa wa, k'a f'aje wa, k'a f'ogede-gede owo wa oko de Isheri Olofin.

Yeah, I believe so about Olu. But that bro is a die- hard Hebrew wanna-be for interesting reasons.

The name "Eko" is a phono-semantic matching of Yoruba and Edo from the earlier original Yoruba name of the "Lagos" settlement, "Oko".

Talking about ownership, as far as the historical evidence is concerned, the "Lagos" region was first settled by the Aworis.

No doubt some Binis, Ijebus, and others who later came to be attracted there for trade purposes, did become absorbed.

TAO12:
First of all, your silence in response to my refutation of your position (of a supposed 'conquest' of Lagos, and of Ashipa's supposed Bini indigenship) is interestingly deafening.

You appear to have either ran out of means to spin my analysis, or you've conceded to have been unfortunately long-misled into ingesting a mis-interpretation of history, hook, line and sinker without hesitation and scrutiny.

In any case, it is my pleasure to have helped you eventually outgrow the childhood indoctrination force-fed to you along the lines that the Binis settled in Lagos via some conquest that established an Edo dynasty there.

Having said that, I should add some word of light to the self-inflicted delusions that you've been lately clouded with in relation to the remittances to Benin, etc. which resulted from the alliance -- with the foreign (Benin) government -- initiated by the Isheri prince and to-be-founder of the new Lagos dynasty, Ashipa.

It is important that I make it clear that the context of your use of the word "brainwashed" is not only farfetched but also pain-induced.

To brainwash another party is to have initiated some "mischief".

In the light of this consideration and in the light of your pettiness, it will appear then that Ashipa brainwashed the Benin government (and not the other way round), as there is not a single account which speaks of the Benin government initiating the alliance with him.

However, the reality is that there is in fact no "mischief" from either side of the alliance -- the Lagos side or the Benin side -- except the one in your poor little mind. Lol.

Ashipa -- a contending Awori prince (and his party) -- allied with Benin government for support at the outset of the 'Lagos' succession tussle. Other eligible Awori princes must have also sought similar supports from elsewhere.

The Ashipa alliance obviously emerged triumphant over the other(s). Naturally, such alliances and supports obviously do not come without treaties of commitments from the parties involved.

One of such commitments is evident in the fact that annual remittances were made to the Benin government. Another is evident in the fact that the newly formed Lagos dynasty did not have the need for its own home-grown standing military in the course of its history.

As opposed to the imagery you are desperate to portray, such ties that continued between the Lagos dynasty and the Benin government was, rather than a parasitic relationship, reminiscent of symbiosis & diplomacy as well as maternal ancestry.

I hope I have been able to finally absolve you from the shackles and dungeon of Igodomigodo. But in any case, the aplication you submitted before me for Lagos indigenship has been torn, burnt and trashed.

cc: RuggedSniper, MetaPhysical, lawani, gomojam, babtoundey, Moneywomen17, sesan85

TAO12:
A quick clarification:

(i) The heads of the Benin Obas taken to Ife are for every third reign.

(ii) The custom was stopped just before Oba Ovoranmwen's reign from whom the British hijacked the Benin polity.

(iii) When Oba Ewuare II visited Ife, he actually paid homage at the Orun Oba Ado site. Channels TV confirmed this.

Also, from a dependable source, I learnt he also completed his ascension rites at the Oranmiyan grove -- which is the actual reason for the visit anyways -- just as is always the custom.

Follow the link I embedded in the comment above for the details on the Orun Oba Ado burial.

Cheers!

Olu317:
This piece of information which you asert as tbus, “ Also, from a dependable source, I learnt he also completed his ascension rites at the Oranmiyan grove -- which is the actual reason for the visit anyways -- just as is always the custom."

Is the oath at the tagged, “oramiyah obelisk" being done by Oba Bini ?

TAO11:
(1) It's not an oath per se, but rather the culminating rites that grants him final authority as King over his Edo subjects.

(2) It's not at the spot of the "Oranmiyan Obelisk" per se, but rather inside the "Oranmiyan House" where Oranmiyan himself is belived to reside eternally.

To be clear, tourists who visit the Oranmiyan grove, may go near the Obelisk. But there is a special place quite some distance from the Obelisk -- called Ile Oranmiyan -- where no tourist may visit.

That place is the "House of Oranmiyan" where a new "Omo N'oba N'Edo", et al., must visit for his culminating ascension rites.

Although I should add that a ram is often sacrificed (at the pathway near the Obelisk) whose blood the new "Omo N'oba" must walk on in procession to the "House of Oranmiyan" where the culmination ascension rites will be carried out.

(3) This is the traditional reason behind why all new Omo N'obas visit Ife. Every other reason you hear of is a cover-up.

A new Ife king have no business visiting Benin on ascension, but it is mandatory that a new Benin King visit Ife.

The internet has some fun memories of at least three of such visits to Ife of Akenzua2, Erediauwa1, and Ewuare2.

And I can assure you 100% that Ewuare2 -- the reigning Benin monarch -- did indeed make it to complete the above-described rites.

During this rite, the signature Ife's "Ada" is re-consecrated and re-presented to the new Omo N'oba as his sign of authority over his Edo subjects.

This is why, among the Edos, the Oba of Benin is NOT praised as the owner of the Ada. Rather, he is praised as the child of the owner of the Ada -- "Ovbi' Ada".

(4) Just for fun, some other interesting praise titles by which the Oba of Benin is praised in Edo land include:

(A) "Ovbi' Adimula" -- meaning: "The son of Adimula".
(Ask them what or who is Adimula in the Edo language).

(B) "Ikeji Orisa" -- meaning: "The Second to the deities".
(Ask them if these words actually exist in their language).

(C) "Abieyuwa N'Ovbi Odua N'Uhe" -- meaning: "The son of the wealthy Odua of Uhe".
(Ask them why the praise regard him as the son of a cOrRupTeD wOrD and not son of Ekaladerhan, lol.).

(D) "Ovbi' oven owie no gbaisi (erhan gba iri)" -- meaning: "The son of the morning sun that covers everywhere".
(Ask them where this morning sun lights up from according to Edo tradition).

TAO11:
(1) It's not an oath per se, but rather the culminating rites that grants him final authority as King over his Edo subjects.

(2) It's not at the spot of the "Oranmiyan Obelisk" per se, but rather inside the "Oranmiyan House" where Oranmiyan himself is belived to reside eternally.

To be clear, tourists who visit the Oranmiyan grove, may go near the Obelisk. But there is a special place quite some distance from the Obelisk -- called Ile Oranmiyan -- where no tourist may visit.

That place is the "House of Oranmiyan" where a new "Omo N'oba N'Edo", et al., must visit for his culminating ascension rites.

Although I should add that a ram is often sacrificed (at the pathway near the Obelisk) whose blood the new "Omo N'oba" must walk on in procession to the "House of Oranmiyan" where the culmination ascension rites will be carried out.

(3) This is the traditional reason behind why all new Omo N'obas visit Ife. Every other reason you hear of is a cover-up.

A new Ife king have no business visiting Benin on ascension, but it is mandatory that a new Benin King visit Ife.

The internet has some fun memories of at least three of such visits to Ife of Akenzua2, Erediauwa1, and Ewuare2.

And I can assure you 100% that Ewuare2 -- the reigning Benin monarch -- did indeed make it to complete the above-described rites.

During this rite, the signature Ife's "Ada" is re-consecrated and re-presented to the new Omo N'oba as his sign of authority over his Edo subjects.

This is why, among the Edos, the Oba of Benin is NOT praised as the owner of the Ada. Rather, he is praised as the child of the owner of the Ada -- "Ovbi' Ada".

(4) Just for fun, some other interesting praise titles by which the Oba of Benin is praised in Edo land include:

(A) "Ovbi' Adimula" -- meaning: "The son of Adimula".
(Ask them what or who is Adimula in the Edo language).

(B) "Ikeji Orisa" -- meaning: "The Second to the deities".
(Ask them if these words actually exist in their language).

(C) "Abieyuwa N'Ovbi Odua N'Uhe" -- meaning: "The son of the wealthy Odua of Uhe".
(Ask them why the praise regard him as the son of a cOrRupTeD wOrD and not son of Ekaladerhan, lol.).

(D) "Ovbi' oven owie no gbaisi (erhan gba iri)" -- meaning: "The son of the morning sun that covers everywhere".
(Ask them where this morning sun lights up from according to Edo tradition).

Olu317:
Awesome insight.

gregyboy:
[s]Bro stop living in dreams you guys are coward we had nothing to do with ife in the past it was a controversial started by Samuel johson and promoted by yorubas bigot like you to get back at us because to makeup the shame of we ruling you in the past, we bleeped your ancestors despite being naked as you cowards claimIf you are going to mention me bring your sense aling remember the criteria dont go and be citing
Oba eweka controversial claims made after 1914 that dont owe weightOba was always indigenous to benin You all are cowards[/s]