₦airaland Forum

shadeyinka:
Really!?
Its the same thing: You are saying God cannot know anything except it has either been done or declared even by man.
Watch what David said:

6. Psalm 139:4
Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O Lord, You know it all .

In other words, before David had declared his mind, the Lord already knew it. Isn't this contrary to your "God only knows what has been declared by himself or declared by man"?

Do you have an explanation against this!?



I gave you two mutually exclusive definitions with an "OR" and without reading it for comprehension you just focused on one as it was just a play of English words!?

Beloved ShadeYinka, so much misconception comes from reading the scripture with a preconceived notion (actually it's necessary but then, if the notion is not true, then we are bound to misinterprete the scriptures).... Let's see this together:

1. Daniel 2:28



However, there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries, and He has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will take place in the latter days. This was your dream and the visions in your mind while on your bed.

Except God is the author of the confusion in the world.

Commentary: There is no future aside:

1. What God has forthtold

2. What God has permitted to happen...

When the Devil was casted out and his place taken, he was cast down to earth. Beloved, this Satan has not been sitting idly, he is so much involved in many things that happens in the world. There are two big pictures in Nebuchadnezzar's dream

1. The four World Kingdom (with the most prominent last King - The Antichrist)

2. The Kingdom of Christ coming to crush the Antichrist and the world kingdom.

Let's start with 2 - Did God foreknow(without actually being the declarer) that some being called Christ will come down to earth and Crush the world kingdom and bring salvation? God forbid! If It be so, Salvation was a coincidence. Here you have it, the part 2 was God's orchestration.

The four kingdoms are not ignorant of Satan's orchestration... That was why Gabriel in chapter 7/8 said to Daniel about some "Princes of the kingdom"... Specifically, Prince of Persia and Prince of Greece... And then he also made mention of Michael as the prince of Israel. Here you have it, Satan's declaration (by God permitted him).... Hahahahahahaha! The writer under the holyghost said " If they had known, they would not have crucified the king of Glory"!!! God looked at him and was more of "Lucifer, you are no match for my Christ. Even with all these you have planned, they will be instrumental for my Big picture!"



2. Romans 8:29



For those whom He foreknew , He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

If God cannot have a Foreknowledge, how can He Foreknow?!

Commentary: To start with, God didn't tell you... It was a human using human terms!

Answer this: Did God foreknow His heirs literally? Did he foreknow the saved ones as 1. Blabber 2. Shade 3. Muttley? God forbid! That would be bias.

God didn't foreknow us individually, he Foreknew us all as "Heirs!" Yea beloved, "Joint heirs with Christ"... There were no literal names, it was a collective something.

Having established that, we should ask ; Who declared that God will redeem mankind through Christ? Who forthtold that Christ would be the firstborn of all HIS SONS? Is it not the Lord God Almighty? Again sir, Declaration/predestination/orchestration precedes foreknowledge.

Is it not logical then that God knows (well, Paul using terms " foreknow"wink what he has declared/forthtold?

Is it not direct that God knows (if you like use "foreknow" (it doesn't change anything)) His Sons whom he has declared before the foundation of the world? Ha ha, you see?



3. Jeremiah 1:5



“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,



And before you were born I consecrated you;



I ORDAINED you a prophet to the nation.

Commentary: Smiles... This point actually correlates with my view.

Let's take it one-by-one

God: Before I formed you in the womb I knew you

Question 1: what did God knew him as?

God: Before you were born I CONSECRATED YOU!

Question 2: What is God consecrating him for?

God (Answering my 2 questions): I ORDAINED YOU TO BE A PROPHET.

So What did God know Jeremiah as before he was born? Simple! As the LORD's prophet. Was it declared or foreknown? It was declared!

Before he was born what did God consecrate him for? Simple! To be the LORD'S prophet! Was it declared or foreknown? It was declared!

Ha ha, you see?





Read the last Line, God himself answered you.



[/b]4. Romans 11:2



God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

Here the specific word used is FOREKNEW! How can you then still say God cannot Foreknow the future?

Commentary:[/b] So? Because the word " foreknow" was used, what does that imply? That God knows some nonexistent future? Going by this we can say God has a heart that pumps blood or has a hand with 5 fingers... Ha ha, you see? On a more serious note, refer to the commentary on the second scripture.



5. 1 Peter 1:2

according to the foreknowledge of God the Father , by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

According to the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God. You can't argue against this unless you rewrite the scriptures.

Commentary: We've dusted this before. God declared/forthtold Sons through Christ... Isn't it direct that one knows (if you like use "foreknow"wink what he has declared?



6. Psalm 139:4



Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O Lord, You know it all .



Even David the king knew about this: except you mean that every word of David was implanted by God (and this will include when David plotted to kill Uriah)

Do you have an explanation against this!?

Commentary: Jesus has an explanation. Christ said " Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks forth"... Before there was a word on David's mouth, it was first in his heart. King David, Shade, And Blabber knows a man's heart is like an open book to the Lord.



7. 1 Samuel 23:10-13

Then David said, “O Lord God of Israel, Your servant has heard for certain that Saul is seeking to come to Keilah to destroy the city on my account. Will the men of Keilah surrender me into his hand? Will Saul come down just as Your servant has heard? O Lord God of Israel, I pray, tell Your servant.” And the Lord said, “He will come down.” Then David said, “Will the men of Keilah surrender me and my men into the hand of Saul?” And the Lord said, “They will surrender you.”

As far as you are concerned, God declared/compelled that David will be betrayed and also declared/compelled that Saul will come down looking for David.

If God cannot know the future saved the one He declared: why ask Him for guidance?

Commentary: Thou seest the heart of every man, yea! Even the heart of the men of Kilgal and their plans, nothing is hidden but all are all made known to you O LORD...



9. Ephesians 1:4

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

God chose us in Christ BEFORE the foundation of the world. Isn't that a Foreknowledge?

Commentary: Check commentary 2...



10. John 6:64



But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him .

Please note the word "from the Beginning"! Are you saying that from the beginning God had declared some people not to believe and some to even betray Christ?

Commentary: The Holy spirit through Paul had dusted this in Romans 9...

What shall the lump of clay say to the potter? Why hath thou made me like this? No! It doesn't work that way. Romans 9:19-23



It's not by accident that we say God KNOWS the future!

Without bias and with all consistency with the scripture, I have been graced to give you a satisfactory expositions to the scriptures you posted. All glory to God!

Now ShadeYinka and any interested believer, it's my turn to question the " future exist" doctrine and your turn to answer me.

Should I carry on?

@Red
You are so fixed in using mans limitation to limit God
Is God omnipresent? How is it possible by mans standard?
Is God omnipotent? How is that possible by mans standard?

Now, your problem is not about the two above but by the third:
Is God omniscient? You say no!
Your argument: it is impossible for humans to know the future, hence God cannot.
Cant you see the logical falacy?

@Blue

As far as you are concerned. Time is one creation that God cannot bend!

It seems some people still do not realize that God is a Spirit. Time is only relevant and meaningful for PHYSICAL things.
How many years did it take John of the Book of Revelation to see the revelation that he was given?
And all the events were Declared to happen by God!?

Martehco:
what make you thought such way?

Blabbermouth:
It seems you rushed through my reply and you didn't see this


You are the one limiting God and I will show you "How" in a jiffy.

shadeyinka:
Look at this scripture again
1 Samuel 23:9-13
When David knew that Saul plotted evil against him, he said to Abiathar the priest, "Bring the ephod here." Then David said, "O Lord God of Israel, your servant has certainly heard that Saul seeks to come to Keilah to destroy the city for my sake. "Will the men of Keilah deliver me into his hand?


Will Saul come down, as your servant has heard?

O Lord God of Israel, I pray, tell your servant." And the Lord said,

"He will come down."

Then David said,

"Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul?"
And the Lord said,
"They will deliver you."

So David and his men, about six hundred, arose and departed from Keilah and went wherever they could go. Then it was told Saul that David had escaped from Keilah; so he halted the expedition

1. Was God Forthtelling his response to David or Foretelling?

2. Even though I have told you several times that the future is not cast in stone, can you explain how Gods "Forthtelling" did NOT come to pass with David?

I'm keeping it short so that you'll have time to ponder on this.

MuttleyLaff:
[img]https://s5/images/ezgif-2-bb81ab7ea10d.gif[/img]

Blabbermouth:
Oh my my my... Please sir, do read in-between the lines this time.
1 Samuel 23
1. Then they told David, saying, Behold, the Philistines fight against Keilah and they rob the threshing floors
2. David Enquired saying, Shall I Go and smite the Philistines? And the LORD said unto David, Go and smite the Philistines and save Keilah.
3. And David's men said unto him, Behold, we be afraid here in Judah: how much more then if we come to Keilah against the armies of the Philistines
Commentary: The Keilahs are being exploited by the Philistines and they were not really able to withstand the Philistine armies. No wonder why David's men were reluctant to go - the Philistine armies were a considerable force to reckon with. The Keilahs thus would have sustained some major and minor casualties here and there.

7. And it was told Saul that David was come to Keilah. And Saul said, God has delivered him into my hands; for he is shut in, by entering into a town that hath gates and bars.
Commentary: The city of Keilah is one with gates and walls... Thus, Saul could(will have) easily lay siege unto the city. Given that Keilah was not much of a big force, they will suffer much casualty if they will have to not surrender David.
9. And David knew that Saul secretly practiced mischief against him; and he said to Abiathar the priest, Bring here the ephod.
10. Then said David, O Lord God of Israel, thy servant hath certainly heard that Saul seeketh to come to Keilah to DESTROY THE CITY FOR MY SAKE
Commentary: David before inquiring(from God, the next step to take) has heard from spies or perhaps whisperers that Saul is coming to Keilah to destroy the city (for his sake). David was in a city which was not his, yet David heard of Saul's determination to come destroy Keilah(for his sake). Do you then think that the people of Keilah have also not heard the news? No, no, no! It's their city and they were also very much aware. A small city that just got delivered from the hands of the Philistines through David heard that Saul was coming for sure to lay siege on the city and destroy anything destroyable all because of David, What do you think are the options of the elders of the city (I.e. the men of Keilah David referred to in Verse 11). ?
Perhaps protect David and let the citizens all be destroyed by the hands of Saul? C'mon that's not an option. They could have officially discussed it in a council-like meeting or still ponder individually what to do in their hearts (God reads the heart like an open book, doesn't He?). Either of which it is, they will surely give David up. Now let's answer your questions

shadeyinka:
Look at this scripture again
1 Samuel 23:9-13
When David knew that Saul plotted evil against him, he said to Abiathar the priest, "Bring the ephod here." Then David said, "O Lord God of Israel, your servant has certainly heard that Saul seeks to come to Keilah to destroy the city for my sake. "Will the men of Keilah deliver me into his hand?


Will Saul come down, as your servant has heard?

O Lord God of Israel, I pray, tell your servant." And the Lord said,

"He will come down."

Then David said,

"Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul?"
And the Lord said,
"They will deliver you."

So David and his men, about six hundred, arose and departed from Keilah and went wherever they could go. Then it was told Saul that David had escaped from Keilah; so he halted the expedition

1. Was God Forthtelling his response to David or Foretelling?
2. Even though I have told you several times that the future is not cast in stone, can you explain how Gods "Forthtelling" did NOT come to pass with David?

I'm keeping it short so that you'll have time to ponder on this.

Blabbermouth:
It's not foretelling nor forthtelling... It's a no-brainer! Saul has DECLARED to come beseige Keilah.. So God said "Saul will come"! The elders of Keilah have no real two choice than to surrender David... So God said " They will deliver thee up ".

Blabbermouth:
Don't force it bro, there was no forthtelling. Do you want to call it foretelling? Alright, i will lead you there myself...
Do/Did you realize?
1. God said "He (Saul) will come down" ... However, Saul did not end up going to Keilah! Did God's foretelling fail?
2. God said "They will deliver thee up".... The Men of Keilah did not deliver David up (He left already and Saul did not even come)! Did God's foretelling fail?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I read your mind and I know already what you will say, something like " How many times do I want to tell you that THE FUTURE IS NOT CAST IN STONES!".... That is to say, what God foretold will only have happened if David did not leave Keilah. Is that the cave you will like to find shelter in? No problem, I'm waiting for you to claim it yourself. Also, I think I should pull this string of your FUTURE IS NOT CAST IN STONES standpoint.
ShadeYinka sir, go as comprehendable as you can, from God's standpoint, explain how the future is not cast in stones... Or explain (from God's standpoint!) what you mean by your statement "the future is not cast in stones.
It seems I can even win this war without firing a shot.

Hahahahahahaha

shadeyinka:
Do you see how much story you needed to whip up to justify a simple point?

Honestly, I don't know how your argument make any sense to you.
1. The Philistines has an army that could be said not to be a walkover to the army of Saul/Israel at that time.

2. David delivered Keilah from this same Philistine Saul was afraid of.

3. Keilah was a walled city and so could withstand a large army in a defensive war

Possible options of the Keliahnites are
a. Repay the good David has done for them by harbouring him
b. Beg David not to stay with them to avert the wrath of Saul
c. Betray David to Saul to save their own skin

Two questions:
Do you think the Keliahnites had just one option before them?

Was God guessing what the outcome would be?

From a human point of view, option a or b was more feasible than option c. But option c is not impossible.

David specifically asked:
"Will the men of Keilah deliver me into his hand?
And God replied in affirmation!
Did Keliah have other options?(Was it possible that Keliah will take another option?)

Was God guessing His affirmative answer?

David also asked:

Will Saul come down, as your servant has heard?
God replied in affirmation!
Did Saul have other options?(Was it possible that Saul will change his mind?)
Was God guessing His affirmative answer?

Will you agree with me that God cannot err! If God cannot err, then (since according to you, God does NOT know the future save the things He has Forthtold), only two options remain
1. God was Forthtelling the future
2. God was Foretelling the future
Any other option is mere guesswork!

Since you do not believe that God can Foretell, I asked you the reasonable question:
How come God's Forthtelling did not come to pass?
Let it stick bro.. There was no forthtelling there, that was God using absolute knowledge of what Saul and the Keilahnites have decided upon.
[quote]Could Saul have fallen ill and therefore not come to besiege Keliah?

Could the Philistines not have chosen the same time to launch an attack against Saul?

Was God guessing His affirmative answer?
But His affirmative answer didn't come to pass!

You very well know the answer and you have preempted one of my answers: the future is dynamic. If David had stayed in Keliah,
1. Saul would have besieged Keliah
2. The people of Keliah would have delivered David into the hands of Saul

Foreknowledge:
God saw exactly what would happen if David trust the Keliahnites for protection.

God was NOT guessing!
God was NOT Forthtelling!
God could NOT have been wrong in-spite of man's free will!

If the future was cast in stone, God would have been wrong.

Unfortunately for you, answering this same question with Forthtelling in mind puts God in a straightjacket of causing Saul to besiege Keliah and Keliah to betray David if David stayed with them.

Blabbermouth:
Perhaps if you have gone for essence, you would have seen the principal point I made there.
The Keilahnites heard also of Saul's plan to come destroy Keilah. The other things I noted out were to make you understand that their resolve/decision was not out of the blues.

The ones that were exploiting Keilah was not ALL of the armies.

David delivered the Keilahnites from the WHOLE Philistine army? Not so, bro.

The same walled city couldn't defend themselves from the Philistine's exploit.

All these are possible options provided they haven't decided in their hearts what to do with David.

An already chosen option.

He was making known to David what the Keilahnites have thought/planned to do with him.

I believe you only skim through my response and rush to give yours... If not, I spelt it out clearly why God said "They will deliver you up".

They've taken an option already.

No. The same way he wasn't guessing when it was said of Lucifer " thou hast said in your heart...". The men of Keilah have already taken an option!

It seems you've edited your post. I thought you asked "If Saul happen to fall gravely ill, can he choose not to go again?"... Did you not read what David said - He said "I heard that Saul has PLANNED to come destroy Keilah for my sake".. That was Saul's own declaration, and God made it known to David that Saul was on His way as he have said.
Yes! A grave illness could have stopped Saul from coming! If it were forthtelling, even if Saul dies, His lifeless body will still come ooo!

A foretelling that didn't happen? Perhaps I need to remind you what everyone claims foretelling is.

Blabbermouth:
A foretelling that didn't happen? Perhaps I need to remind you what everyone claims foretelling is.

Blabbermouth:
You were the same person that said God knows my eternal destination already even before my father released me into my mother's reproductive organ.
Please sir, explain what you mean from God's standpoint by the statement "The future is not cast in stones".
Here is a brotherly notification, the second definition of the future (according to Oxford dictionary) and with respect to the context we have been applying it to, Future is What WILL happen in time(to come) NOT What MAY happen in time

Also, here are 2 mock questions
1. Which of the future account did God see before David was formed in the womb?
I. At a time, David will ask God if he should go deliver the Keilahs from the hands of the philistine and He(God) will tell David to Go. Saul will then come over to Keilah and lay seige on the city and the people of Keilah will surrender David to their hands.
II. At a time, David will ask God if he should go deliver the Keilahs from the hands of the philistines and He (God) will tell David to Go. Saul will then Plan to come lay seige and destroy Keilah but David will flee Keilah and Saul will not come.
Pick one bro!

Please sir, explain what you mean from God's standpoint by the statement "The future is not cast in stones".

1. Which of the future account did God see before David was formed in the womb?

Interestingly you seem to believe that even though God doesn't know the future, He can read people's mind. And this is amusing to me. Is it logical for a limited God to be able to do this?

1. Let's assume for your sake that God can read the mind of people: Is there any guarantee that a man will do as he has initially planned?
The answer to this is NO!

Num 23:19: "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: has he said, and shall he not do it? or has

he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"

God Himself know that men do change their mind with time.

2. If men can change their mind, any information gleaned from the thought of man is NOT guaranteed to happen

3. Any affirmative response of the future based on this is just a mere guesswork!

David knew the thoughts of Saul: " to come down against him!"

Why then did David ask God IF Saul will come down against him (if they both know the plan of Saul).?

Note:

Your argument of

They've taken an option already.

Hold no water as men are prone to CHANGING their minds depending on other prevailing circumstances!

The future is the consequence of choices already made and the choices being made(hence the future is not fixed) either in God's reference point or man's reference point.

What we have simply told you is that WHATEVER your past, present or future choices, God knows. A man thus have the power to change his future by modifying his present choices and God has the power to know that which is in the power of man to do.

God even advocate that a man should change his future by his choices. It is those past and present choices that determines what God has as Foreknowledge.

It's a wrong question based on the assumption that the future is fixed.
: the future ISN'T fixed but simply foreknown!

Psalm 139:4

Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O Lord, You know it all .

What do you think of this:
Is God omnipresent?

Blabbermouth:
Let's see..

Shadeyinka, the information in people's mind is an EXISTING ONE! It was called to existence by the Person himself, that's the power of a will and an active force. God knows EVERY EXISTING INFORMATION!
The future is NON-EXISTENT! For it to exist, it has to be created. Humans, angels and any being at all can NEVER create their future in foetal or pre-existent state. God will (in most cases) not create one for you. Except you will argue that there is a being assigned with scripting people's future, as long as no such person exist, then future (I.e. What will happen) is a non-existing info, it's blank! God does not have an account of non-existing info.

Blabbermouth:
Exactly! That was why this never happened; Saul never actually went down to Keilah because he heard something that made him change his mind.

Blabbermouth:
Shadeyinka, Man doesn't just CHANGE HIS MIND... There is always a factor causing the change. If that factor never comes in play, man will surely go on with his plan.
God doesn't get his plans breezed by some unforeseen wind or storm, fortunately and unfortunately for man, many things can cause him to change his plan

The future is What Will Happen and not What MAY happen... If the "He will come!" was a future account, then Saul ought to have come nevertheless, otherwise someone was lying.
Given that the aforementioned factor doesn't come in play, it's a no-brainer, not a guesswork!

Read the scripture you posted yourself, your answer is there.

Blabbermouth:
It's the truth! You will see why it is not foretelling soon.

If future is a consequence of choices already made and the choices being made, then a foetus has no future. True or false?

If future is a consequence of choices already made and the choices being made, then a foetus has no future. True or false?

Blabbermouth:
I was clear - Does God know where I will spend my eternity? You answered in affirmative. You used a time-machine as your perfect illustrations, you did not realize that a time-machine will kill the possibility for change and make the future a fixed one.

Blabbermouth:
This new model now, I believe you are saying the future is like a dice... Any of the six-possible faces can show up but we know not the one among the six that WILL show up.
God knows all possibilities that MAY constitute the future but He knows the exact one that WILL, since We can always change things at every instant in time.

Blabbermouth:
You haven't realised it yet that it has dawned on your spirit that a future does not exist.
When we started, I specifically asked you about God's foreknowledge of a foetus still in its mother's womb, asking if God ALREADY KNOWS the eternal destination of the foetus (+ every action from start to finish) - your answer was affirmative.
Now, you are saying that Man has the ability to change his future by his choices (the ones he has MADE already NOT the ones he WILL MAKE) and thus the future can always be changed.

If the future is dynamic (not constant and always changing), then God doesn't know what WILL happen but ALL WHAT MAY HAPPEN... thus what WILL happen does not exist! You dig now, don't you?

Blabbermouth:
What then is God foreknowing? What WILL happen or What MAY happen? If it is what WILL happen, the future is fixed. If it is what MAY happen, then the future does not exist. So Shadeyinka, what is God foreknowning?

Blabbermouth:
What did David said God know? What David WILL say or What David MIGHT say?
By the way, the Psalms 139:4 has been explained and there was no foretelling there.

Blabbermouth:
Define omnipresence.

shadeyinka:
By the definition of existence, a thought CANNOT exist. If it does, can one touch, handle, measure...thoughts. Interestingly, you are the one constantly hammering on "the future doesn't exist!": no one has been arguinging that the future EXIST. A person may have a dream, but it is meaningless to say the dream exist. Such is the case with the thought of a man's heart.


Unfortunately, that goes against Gods declaration

1Sam 23:11: "Will the men of Keilah deliver me up into his hand? will Saul come down, as your servant has heard? O LORD God of Israel, I beseech you, tell your servant. And the LORD said, He will come down."

1Sam 23:12: "Then said David, Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul? And the LORD said, They will deliver you up."

If those are NOT declarations, what are they?



Check the consequence of the yellow highlight.

If events could happen that can change man's mind AND God doesn't even know the future to guarantee that that such events would not happen, then do you still think that God could be wrong by declaring that "Saul will come down" and that "the Keilah will deliver David to the hands of Saul"?

Was God guessing the response of both Saul and Keilah?



If I just took ten bottles of sniper, can people know my future?
If during an exam, I wrote only my name and matric number and submitted my script, is the future for that exam not failure?

This is a misapplication of understanding! The choices my parent made is binding on me.

For the foetus, the guardians determine to a limited extent what happens to the baby. They can abort the baby if they wish.


No sir! The same time machine has factored in that this man will receive warnings and directions in his REAL TIME! His final choices despite this intervention is what God has seen.
The future is NOT cast in Stone!


There is no new model!



You have completely missed it sir!
You are still fixed in your misconstrued idea that I said that the future is FIXED.
If the future is fixed, then it cannot be changed.

The knowledge of God is NOT PREFIXED, it was FOREKNOWN as a reason of choices a man MADE (not will make) in his real time. God is omnipresent in time.


God can speak of what WILL happen: it is called foreknowledge or prophecy!
Gods Foreknowledge is knowing
what you can do, what you will do and what you have done even before you were born based on the choices before you.



God's Foreknowledge is absolute, there is no MAY or MIGHT! So also is God's Forthtelling:



God's omnipresence is his ability to be fully and undividedly present in every space of the universe that He decides to be at the same time.

What is your own definition?
And is God omnipresent?

Blabbermouth:
Shadowboxing with English will not help you out here. I will ask you a series of questions now, do well to be consistent without using the same term to mean different things or using different terms to mean the same thing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
1. At what point infact, does God foreknow a being's future?

2. Does God knows where an unborn foetus will end up eternally? Whether Heaven or Hell?

3. Does God know every single action at every instant in time a foetus will take till it dies?

4. Did God foreknow every single move, action and CHANGES an unborn David(including everyone else o) will take throughout his lifetime?

4. If you answer affirmative to the question above, Did or Did not God see the changes David will make in the future concerning staying in/leaving Keilah?

Blabbermouth:
6. You said "God has no future". Take your time and bridge it with this:
" As at the era of Abraham, an account like "God talking to Moses in a burning bush" was YET TO HAPPEN. Thus, such account can be said to be a future account (I.e. An account that will happen in the future)...
I. Did God foreknow that He (God) will at one time talk to a man called moses?
II. If His ordeal with moses was a future account, then God himself has a future (I.e. Things that will happen but has yet not happen). How come you say "God has no future" ?

shadeyinka:
Affirmative for all your questions above. God knows everything!

Yes, God saw every change David will make including consulting Him. The responsibility of anything God saw was David's: whatever David DID was what God saw!

See how you mixed up Moses future with God's future!?

Can Moses change to a better or worse state?
If Yes!
Then Moses has a future. He will die and be with God in His Paradise!
Then Moses will experience resurrection...and...

Can God change to a better or worse state?
Rev 1:8:
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, said the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
Mal 3:6:
"For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore you sons of Jacob are not consumed."
Heb 13:8:
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."

It's obvious God's state cannot change. He remains the same yesterday, today and forever

My dear, it is man who has a future: God doesn't have a future.

Blabbermouth:
Please answer the questions one after the other, a simple YES or NO response is not suitable for some of the questions.

What?! Well, answer the questions one after the other first, I will tell you the implication of what you just said.

Is this your usual way of wriggling out? I "mixed up"? Mixed what up? Kiss the truth my dear.

Are you whining me? Change? Change what God has foreseen? Didn't you say God has foreseen every single change he will make? So? What's changing again?

Come off it! This is no defence at all. God does not change, cool. Moses also during his lifetime did not introduce something new to what God foresaw before he was born. How did moses change his future?

You will have to pick a side Sir, do well to answer my questions again please.

Change what God has foreseen? Didn't you say God has foreseen every single change he will make? So? What's changing again?

shadeyinka:
What is the meaning of affirmation?
Can NO be an affirmation to something!?

Blabbermouth:
YES or NO cannot answer these;
1. At what point infact, does God foreknow a being's future?
4. If you answer affirmative to the question above, Did or Did not God see the changes David will make in the future concerning staying in/leaving Keilah?

shadeyinka:
Affirmative for all your questions above. God knows everything!

Yes, God saw every change David will make including consulting Him. The responsibility of anything God saw was David's: whatever David DID was what God saw!



See how you mixed up Moses future with God's future!?
Can Moses change to a better or worse state?
If Yes!
Then Moses has a future. He will die and be with God in His Paradise!
Then Moses will experience resurrection...and...

Can God change to a better or worse state?
Rev 1:8:
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, said the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
Mal 3:6:
"For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore you sons of Jacob are not consumed."
Heb 13:8:
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."

It's obvious God's state cannot change. He remains the same yesterday, today and forever

My dear, it is man who has a future: God doesn't have a future.

Blabbermouth:
My Quote:
[s]My issue with you is that you are locked in your misconceptions even concerning things you have heard me say. Check your quote below
How many times do I have to tell you that God sees that which you DID and the choices you MADE with your available options in your PRESENT time!
In simple English: it is what you DID (in your present tense) that God saw
(from the eternal past) and NOT what you WILL DO in future! Whatever you DID was what God saw![/s]


Maybe you didn't realize that from the eternal past, 1. What I have done 2. What I am doing now 3. What I will do.... Are all YET TO BE DONE during the eternal past.

Maximus69:
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The problem you're having and that you'll ever continue to have with your audience is trying to be sure if they are convinced about your teachings

whereas that's not the way Jesus (the one you claim you're following) commissioned this preaching and teaching work!

Maximus69:
Jesus only asked us to make the presentation {Matthew 10:11-13} we are to search for those whose hearts are already prepared {Matthew 10:6} as in receptive to welcome the message {Matthew 13:23} the good soil (fertile) here means a receptive heart that's yearning for the truth even before you come around {Matthew 5:6} such a person will be eager to learn once he realized that you're fully competent and completely equipped to handle God's word aright! 2Timothy 2:15, 3:16-17
When we come in contact with someone whose heart is obstinate and ever ready to debunk God's word, precious time and energy need not be wasted we just take our leave in peace {Matthew 10:13} because it's not our work but God's, ours is to plant and if there is chances we water or leave the watering for our fellow believers! {1Corinthians 3:6} so don't think of getting the glory because the glory of soul winning belongs to God! 1Corinthians 3:7

Maximus69:
That's why it is compulsory to IDENTIFY the true Christian group, this will make it easier for you to tell the interested one where to get the continuation of what you started.
I met a guy in the public transport one day, after chatting for about 2 hours in the huge traffic, he was so impressed that he wanted to collect my number so as to call me when he gets home, but he was so shocked when i told him Jehovah's Witnesses in his neighbourhood will continue from where we stopped!
That was the time he started asking series of questions again.
©Why is it that your people don't pray?
©Why is it that you don't believe the Holy Spirit?
©Why don't you celebrate Christmas?
©Why don't you accept tracts from others?
©Why don't you believe in heaven/Hellfire?

That was the time the lady sitting next to him said "You need not bother yourself, if you're not ready to learn further try to delete the information you got through him. As for me i'm going to ask my neighbour all the questions that's been bothering my mind about their religion, because your conversation really touched my heart"

Maximus69:
That's when i fully grasped what Jesus' meant by the Parable of the sower, because i never knew the lady sitting next to him was listening to our discussion!

shadeyinka:
BTW, I use Nairaland to relax and on religious post depending on the level of the individual. There are some funny belief comprehension about God and His Will amongst some of His children.
There is no glory to be gotten on Nairaland. Extensive bible discussion or even disputes is only for those whose claim of the knowledge of Christ is above average.
I prefer my evangelism to be One on One, Face to Face rather than of any other means. The purpose of evangelism primarily is for SALVATION of their souls.
1Cor 2:2:
"For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified."
I go like the sower! Sometimes, God has gone ahead to prepare the heart for the Word. Sometimes, even when the heart seems prepared, the cares of this world will not make the heart fruitful. Sometimes, the heart is stoney and obstinate.
In evangelism, there must be no dispute or argument.
Mat 10:14:
"And whoever does not welcome you or listen to what you have to say, shake the dust off of your shoes as you leave that house or town."
It is very easy to preach DENOMINATION/CHURCH rather than Christ.
Since ECWA didn't die for the sin of the world, I never ever say "come to my Church!" in the course of Evangelism. I say "find any Living Church near your neighborhood!".
1Cor 2:2:
"For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified."
1Cor 3:11:
"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ."
1Cor 4:15:
"For though you have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have you not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel."
1Cor 12:12:
"For as the body is one, and has many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ."
2Cor 4:5: "
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake."
Gods Word is like a double edged sword it has in it the power to convict the world of sin
Rom 1:16:
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God to salvation to every one that believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."

Maximus69:
The blue colour is a huge chasm between us!

Well, Jesus' followers weren't just saying Jesus was killed for the sin of Mankind o!

That's where most of you totally lost it.
What they were saying indirectly is

"Out of the religious groups teaching about the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in Judah, only our group has the truth"

Notice that Apollos (John's disciple) also believe in Jesus, yet Aquila and Priscilla still taught him some things that only the Christian congregation knew! Act 18:24-26

So what will happen if Apollos insisted on the things he knew that's not accurate?
Your statement for an interested person to find a living Church is a deception, because there is no Church presenting themselves as "Dead"
So you must tell, present, show, point to the church that's practicing what you're teaching , if truthfully there is Christianity for real!

Satan's agents are everywhere gathering people {Matthew 24:11} and they will never say they're dead Church!

shadeyinka:
Jesus never preached Denomination! He said:
Mat 16:18:
"And I say also to you, That you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
Jesus said:
Mat 18:20:
"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the middle of them."
Paul said:
1Cor 3:3-4:
"For you are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are you not carnal, and walk as men? For while one said, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are you not carnal?"

Paul was saying that denominationalism IS carnality.

1Cor 3:11:
"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ."

I will rather preach Christ alone!

Of course, no church denomination presents itself as dead BUT hear what Jesus said:
John 10:27:
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

John 10:7-8:
"Then said Jesus to them again, Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them."

Haylel:
"Yes, God saw every change David will make including consulting Him. The responsibility of anything God saw was David's: whatever David DID was what God saw!"- Shadeyinka

1. According to you, it was by foreknowledge God said to David "He(I.e Saul) WILL come"... Also, it was by foreknowledge God said of Keilah " They (Keilah) WILL surrender you ".
(I say this as a man)... Do you realize what just happened? IF it was by foreknowledge, God LIED to David!
What God saw from the eternal past was not " Saul coming to Keilah" but "Saul halting his plan to come when he heard the news that David has escaped". However, when David asked God if Saul WILL come, God said something not in the account of His foreknowledge.
You were forewarned not to push God's reply to David as from His foreknowing ability. Now, your belief in foreknowledge has made God a Liar

2. The belief in an existent future will automatically mean God himself has a future. You dabbled with English, threw unrelated scriptures and wrote in bolded " My dear, God does not have a future only man does ".
However, it was obvious that God's ordeal with Moses was an account that was YET TO HAPPEN at the time of Abraham. Thus, His ordeals with Moses was a Future account (I.e. what will happen in time) at the time of Abraham. Such ordeal (provided a future exist) is nothing else (no matter how you try to sugar coat it) but God's own future.
Now, if the Most High himself has a future;
I. Did he foreknow (without ordaining it) his future or did he by His own will ordain his future?
(Another brotherly advice: You will be quick to chose option 2 since it kind of secure God's control... However, you will have no choice than to end up admitting that God writing his own script will indirectly and simultaneously cause the script of the other creature to be his doing)

3. You haven't answered this- At what point did/does God foreknow the future of everything?

I think your assessment are with knowledge just need but you need know only a few. GOD is all knowing and bc if that he plans everything before they are even set in motions. The angels are coming places in places as a witness bc he’s just and not bc he does not know. A truth is establish between 2 or 3 people. If only GOD knows then it can’t stand but if an angel testifies to what GOD already knows then he’s just as he is. The same is why Enoch was not with man bc he testified against the angels that came to lay with man. Another thing you should know is GOD has seen how everything will play out, he knows every possible outcome but he made you like himself so you’re allowed to change the outcome at every situation you get but even that too, GOD knows how it’ll end when you set it in motion. It’s like how Sherlock homes calculates every possible moves even before you make the move, that’s how it’s. You’re the key fact but every move you make, GOD would have known the end. Just like the betrayal of Jesus, GOD has seen it, people like David, Isaiah too were made to see it, now while it’s written that someone will betray, it shouldn’t have been Judas but he took the action thee end thereof is already known. GOD does did not regret making man on earth, it’s all in the grand scheme, the devil is falling while man is rising, it just baffles GOD how mankind can be so wicked just like it baffles Christ with his how town’s disbelief. It’s just wonder and their wickedness


Well God is never Omnipresent, Omnipotent or was he Omniscient!

Those are speculations of credulous religionists presumptuously saying what they feel God should be not what God said about himself!

He began creating everything from the beginning with the plan to give life to so many creatures we are seeing now. Because he has all the powers and HOLY (PURE in mind) he has no evil thoughts so there is nothing that can stop his program.

But some of his spirit sons began having wrong motives that was the Genesis of his regrets, he never saw it coming! Genesis 3:1-5, 6:1-6

As for the Omnis he can see everywhere and everyone on this planet, but his eyes are too pure to continue looking at evil {Habakkuk 1:13} and that's what has been happening after the fall of man in hidden so he decides to focus only on those who are doing things that brings him Joy {Proverbs 27:11} he has dispatched angels to all the four corners of the earth and equipped them with the ability to maintain their neutrality so no matter what a man does to his fellowman they'll just stand watching and after they'll report back to him {Genesis 18:20-21} so he is not everywhere as most religions teach! Isaiah 55:8-8


He's not irrational as man would have expected him to quickly jump into action when their authority is challenged, so he has restrictions on what he can do and what he will not do, that's why Abraham said about him, "i know you, you can't destroy the good along with the wicked" Genesis 18:23