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Does God Really Know The Future? - Religion (14) - Nairaland

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Re: Does God Really Know The Future? by MuttleyLaff: 2:36am On Aug 30
"Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered
and laid bare before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account
"
- Hebrews 4:13

"For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth,
to show Himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is loyal to Him.
In this you have done foolishly; therefore from now on you shall have wars.”
"
- 2 Chronicles 16:9

"He reveals the deep and hidden things;
He knows what lies in darkness, and light dwells with Him
"
- Daniel 2:22

""Can a man hide in secret places where I cannot see him?" declares the LORD.
"Do I not fill the heavens and earth?" declares the LORD
"
- Jeremiah 23:24

"You know what I am going to say even before I say it, LORD
(i.e. And thou hast foreseen all my ways: for there is no speech in my tongue.
Or, even before there is a [single] word on my tongue, you know all about it, LORD.)
"
- Psalm 139:4

"The eyes of the LORD are everywhere.
They watch evil people and good people
"
- Proverbs 15:3

"... For the LORD sees every heart and knows every plan and thought.
If you seek him, you will find him.
But if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.
"
- 1 Chronicles 28:9b

"From the beginning I revealed to you what would happen.
These words came out of my mouth, and I made them known.
Suddenly, I acted, and they happened
"
- Jeremiah 16:17

"Who is this Blabbermouth that obscures My plans with words without knowledge?
(i.e. Who is this Blabbermouth that questions My wisdom with such ignorant words?
"Who is this Blabbermouth who keeps darkening My counsel without knowing what he's talking about?
Why do you Blabbermouth talk so much when you know so little?
Who is this Blabbermouth that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words?
Who are you Blabbermouth to question My wisdom with your ignorant, empty words?)
"
- Job 38:2
Re: Does God Really Know The Future? by Nobody: 4:14am On Aug 30
Blabbermouth:

I didn't say "alright" because I was wrong though. Concerning the 10 questions you asked, my answers won't be satisfactory as I believe in certain things you don't and you believe in certain things I don't.

Apart from Jehovah's Witnesses all other religions claiming Christians will only argue and argue and argue only to win in the arguement, but for you to agree in one line of thought that's what will never work elsewhere apart from the midst of Jehovah's Witnesses!

WHY?

Because it's through humility that one can agree from the heart that another knows better and be prepared to yield, when people just win arguement all what they're trying to do is justify their choice of worship but ask them "are you sure this is how everyone should worship God?" then you'll notice that they just want to justify their own opinion that's all, because instantly they'll tell you that everyone can choose how to worship God, then what is the purpose of putting up a lengthy arguement if it's not certain that we must worship God the same way? smiley
Re: Does God Really Know The Future? by DrLiveLogic(m): 6:04am On Aug 30
MuttleyLaff:
No one expects you to hide behind "God sees in mysterious ways"

God, by default, is Mysterious. Even in Yoruba cosmology and mythology, His essence and nature is beautifully captured, the best, in being identified and called "Eledumare" or "Olodumare", of which, the portmanteau Yoruba word, when loosely translated means, the Owner or Custodian of absolute energy and infinite mysteries, who has knowledge of all blessings, so God being Mysterious, and expecting human beings, His creation to "ask, seek to know, unravel mysteries" about Him, blessed us with the brain, which isn't an ornament to decorate the body with, but is this powerfully built processing functional gift, given for a purpose, reason and such a time as like this, other than sitting on our hands or folding the hands, resigning to "God saw it all ..."


We write our own scripts by living life, with our interactions, from making choices, from taking decisions et cetera. Also, the way you play the hand you are dealt, is how you write your own script.

Of course, unlike human beings, God being Omni-Know-Everything, Omni-Know-All, being Omni-See-All, Omni-Nothing-is-Hidden-From-Him et cetera


Please be fair and stop making unrighteous judgment(s) YOU cant back up

1/ Did God not warn A&E about not eating the fruit from the TKGE?
2/ Is that really not doing anything?


No, it best sums up, what an unappreciative person with a disturbing soul you are, laying accusations on God, making negative comments about Him and doing all that, without considering the fact and truth, you don't at all, have the entire low down and precise details of the whole matter. Instead of treading carefully you are throwing caution to the wind, taking swipes indiscriminately at God. I guess you have forgotten about how Job too was mouthing off before God cut him down to size with realities

Lucifer, being a product of creativity, had a right to exist. Creativity must be allowed to express itself. Lucifer would be what Lucifer would. The only thing that was holding Lucifer back from being the Lucifer, he turned out to become, was simply because God's presence or better still, God's Hand was off Lucifer. All along Lucifer was perfect in all his doings, but the minute God lifted His Hand and turned His back, injustice, unrighteousness and wrong was found in him as he stopped to meet God's standard (i.e. he sinned)

Now, my dear confused dot com beloved brother friend, the good news, is that the sin situation problem God foreknew about and is what exactly He was set out to resolve once and fully, not to be a problem with all its baggages anymore.
Bravo!! @ the bolded, MuttleyLaff. That's top notch, top-secret, classified info you got there. Blabbermouth I wish you'd take a cue from the bolded. It'll save you a lot of mess in this subject you're handling. I'll go deeper into this in the purpose of creation and the origin of good and evil.
I know you're scared to believe God could've known evil could happen and yet created the possibility but you need to know that if anything is POSSIBLE (emphasis on possible, meaning permitted by the laws of existence), good or evil, it must happen eventually in the span of existence. What matters though is that by divine power, good will ultimately overcome evil. So God will be justified in those that choose His ways.

And I'm yet to understand the rationale behind you asking me to show from OT that Jesus is one with YHWH. I already did that with the Psalms 102 and there's some more but why the emphasis on OT, anyway. What you getting at?

1 Like

Re: Does God Really Know The Future? by shadeyinka(m): 9:04am On Aug 30
Blabbermouth:

The one God wrote or the one you wrote before your existence?
Many Christians do not see (or chose not to see) that if God foretells, then there is an higher power orchestrating a higher declaration. I will pull this string now and you will see what I mean.

Like you choose the kind of characters you wanted before existing. The same way I chose that I will be a peaceable boy.
Here is another example where you mix up Foreknowledge/Foretelling with Forthtelling.
1. The fact that a knowledge is SPOKEN doesn't make it Forthtelling. A spoken future can either be a forthtelling or a foretelling.
2. Check your misunderstanding @bold. God doesn't write your future. If He did, that would be a FORTHTELLING and not FORETELLING. People's future are not written in advance AND only God has the capacity of knowing a person's future before the person even existed.



Blabbermouth:

Show me freewill in this!
Exodus 4:21
"when you go to return into Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in your hands: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go"
Because of God's orchestration, Exodus5:2 happened
"And Pharaoh said, who is the LORD, that I should Obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go"
Again!
Exodus 7:3
" And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt"
Because of God's orchestration (not Pharaoh's free will!) , Exodus7:13 happened
"And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said"
And again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again.
Then it was capped up with this statement that God himself said
Exodus 9:16
"And in very deed for this cause have I raised you (Pharaoh) us, for to shew in you my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth."
Eewo! Did you hear that?! Did you hear what God just said?
He claimed he made Pharaoh, raised him up so that He (God) can show the whole of Israel, Egypt and the world that He is very powerful. He was using Pharaoh!
Where is the freewill?
The Lord took Jeremiah to a potter's shop and showed him a potter using the clay to mould whatever he wills.
And God said to him "Can I just like the potter not use you (the clay) to mould what I want?"
Where is the perfect free will of the clay?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I once engaged an atheist and he was all over the place telling me how everything is material and nothing so spiritual. He kept claiming "free as a bird", " freewill" and "free free".... Alright, Alright, Alright! I said. If you are 100% free, I will give you a list of commandments and if you can by your own free will observe them for 10 days, then there is no " spirituality " and you are 100% free.
He was someone I know well, so I knew his weaknessess and soft spots. He didn't last 3days before he broke most of the commandments. He tried again and failed. He tried again and failed. Where is the freewill?!
What happened to him is the same reality everyone under the domain of death face
Romans 7:15,18,24
15.For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not: but what I hate to do (I.e don't want to do) , I do
18. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will(my will, my freewill!) is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
24. O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
That scripture is what made me realize that freewill is very much dependent on the domain you operate in. It is not totally free o! If you are in the domain of death, you will continue to lament that you want (by your free will) to stop masturbation but you keep going back doing what is against your will.
Also, if you are in the domain of LIFE, your freewill is a slave to the will of God. That life is not totally yours o! Infact, everything is meant to bring glory to God, even your death!
Hahahahahahaha, Hallelujah!
The death of many believers has been declared to bring Glory to God, praise God!
Jesus' death was forthtold not foretold! Any other way, salvation would have been a coincidence.

It's a no-brainer. There is no foretelling!
Here you have another misunderstanding. Freewill doesn't mean CONTROL of your environment. Freewill is ability to come to terms with your available choices AND making decisions based on those available choices.


You will note that unlike you, I have never rule out "God's orchestration" in Human affairs. When this orchestration is spoken ahead by God, it is called FORTHTELLING. The examples you have chosen are where God's orchestration is in effect: hence a pointless argument except my position was that God doesn't interfere in human affairs by FORTHTELLING or INTERVENTIONS!

Unfortunately, when you assume all God's FORETELLING are actually a FORTHTELLING, you make God the orchestrator of evil.

Note:
It is one thing that Peter be killed, it is another thing for God to orchestrate how Peter dies. (CRUCIFIXION).

Temptations works in every human being born again or not. These are external factors just like Potiphar's wife presented opportunities to Joseph to commit fornication. Joseph had a Freewill within the given environment to do it or not. Do you think Potiphar's wife was old or ugly or the fact that they'll be caught? No sir! Will God have prevented Joseph unable to have an erection if he wanted to?


Blabbermouth:

Forthtelling or foretelling, someone was doomed!
By forthtelling, the question will be "Why declare such for one of the apostles?"
By foretelling, "why did God not just decide not to create him?".... Even Christ attested that it would have been better if he was not created.

Let me drop more scriptures
Psalms 41:9
"Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me"
Psalms109:8
"Let his days be few; and his office, let another take"
Now many believed all this to be prophecies of Judas' betrayal.
To the Foretellers, how did a nonexisting Judas chose (of all things to be chosen) to betray Jesus? Why didn't God stop him?
To forthtelling, why declare such an office seeing that one is doomed to fall?
Well you see, it's a mystery yet to be solved (100% I mean). The Foretellers take the weight from God by saying, He only foretold, he didn't forthtell. We both know it's weak and it doesn't solve anything.
However, I won't be surprised to see Judas in heaven (infact, I'm expecting him!).

Come and see how almost heartless this sounded (I speak as a man).
John17:12
"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in your name: those that you gave me I have kept, and none of them is lost...
Jesus then went on to say.....
" but the son of perdition that the scripture might be fulfilled! "
Did you hear that? Christ could have kept him! The word of God could have prevented it! Why didn't he?
Christ said he suffered (allowed) him to be lost that the scripture might be fulfilled! When scriptures are being fulfilled then it is an act of forthtelling.
1Peter3:18-19 could have happened to Judas and that would make everything perfect.

What did I tell you the prophets are foretelling? Is it not what God has forthtold?
If God is to foretell, then he would be foretelling what a higher declarer/forthteller has forthtold (God forbid!).

That was foretelling what God has forthtold. Peter's death was for the glory of God.
Can you see that your misunderstanding is causing you to have a big mix-up! You said
"To the Foretellers, how did a nonexisting Judas chose (of all things to be chosen) to betray Jesus?"

The non existent Judas couldn't have chosen anything for himself. The bible say that
Judas was a thief
John 12:4-6:
"Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscar´i-ot, Simon's son, which should betray him, Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein."

Are you saying God made Judas a their?

Blabbermouth:

The denial of Peter was one of the greatest lesson to the saints. Again, it was declared.

Do you have Psalms137:8-9 in your bible? Check it out!
8. O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth as thou hast served us.
Seeeeeeee thiiisssssss!
9. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth your little ones against the stones
That was Israel doing what you are condemning Hazael for. Who shall be say is evil in this case, God or Israel?
You seem to mistake God's punishment for Evil.

No evil, just punishment! 1kings19:17.

Which God permitted this?
8. O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth as thou hast served us.
Seeeeeeee thiiisssssss!
9. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth your little ones against the stones
There is that loving, vanilla, pampering dimension of God.... That same entity can be scary when it comes to punishment and Judgement!

Don't force it sir!
The first King was Saul, how bad was he?
The second King was David, he was a very Good king (So did God's foretelling fail?)
The third King was Solomon, you know any other time Israel enjoyed economic peak as under the years of Solomon? (Did God's foretelling fail again?)
We had good guys like
1. Hezekiah
2. Josiah
3. Asa
And many more.... Are they bad kings?
There was no foretelling or forthtelling in the scripture you gave.
If Peters betrayal was forthtold, what lesson is their except that we shouldn't resist temptations for it had been FORTHTOLD and nothing can change it!?

Does the above make sense to you?
Re: Does God Really Know The Future? by Blabbermouth: 9:35am On Aug 30
DrLiveLogic:

Bravo!! @ the bolded, MuttleyLaff. That's top notch, top-secret, classified info you got there. Blabbermouth I wish you'd take a cue from the bolded. It'll save you a lot of mess in this subject you're handling. I'll go deeper into this in the purpose of creation and the origin of good and evil.
Livelogic, @the bolded was what I previously believed before. When you then ask (say, in a bible study) that "Why did God create Lucifer foreknowing He will fall?".... Everyone become as quiet and those attempting to answer try to stitch what they believe of God with God's foreknowledge.

I know you're scared to believe God could've known evil could happen and yet created the possibility but you need to know that if anything is POSSIBLE (emphasis on possible, meaning permitted by the laws of existence), good or evil, it must happen eventually in the span of existence. What matters though is that by divine power, good will ultimately overcome evil. So God will be justified in those that choose His ways.
Should we close our eyes? Where did Lucifer then see his own?
I don't assume something is right because well... I can't question it. I keep asking how a nonexistent Lucifer chose those things and every keep saying " Predestination is different from foreknowledge "... How? How? How? Is what I want to know. God used His foreknowledge power to know that Lucifer will fall... No problem. Who ordained Lucifer's fall? It doesn't make sense twisting things and saying a Nonexistent Lucifer ordained something for himself in time. Who wrote the future?
Men use the word " foreknowledge " because they are limited by time.

And I'm yet to understand the rationale behind you asking me to show from OT that Jesus is one with YHWH. I already did that with the Psalms 102 and there's some more but why the emphasis on OT, anyway. What you getting at?
Psalms 102? It's not a proof. What am I getting at? Nothing much, I want to see if something is true.
Re: Does God Really Know The Future? by shadeyinka(m): 10:12am On Aug 31
Blabbermouth:

Livelogic, @the bolded was what I previously believed before. When you then ask (say, in a bible study) that "Why did God create Lucifer foreknowing He will fall?".... Everyone become as quiet and those attempting to answer try to stitch what they believe of God with God's foreknowledge.

Should we close our eyes? Where did Lucifer then see his own?
I don't assume something is right because well... I can't question it. I keep asking how a nonexistent Lucifer chose those things and every keep saying " Predestination is different from foreknowledge "... How? How? How? Is what I want to know. God used His foreknowledge power to know that Lucifer will fall... No problem. Who ordained Lucifer's fall? It doesn't make sense twisting things and saying a Nonexistent Lucifer ordained something for himself in time. Who wrote the future?
Men use the word " foreknowledge " because they are limited by time.

Psalms 102? It's not a proof. What am I getting at? Nothing much, I want to see if something is true.
No one ORDAINED Lucifer's fall. He fell on his own accord.

If Lucifer's fall was ORDAINED, then Lucifer has committed no crime and should not be published.

God even though had a Foreknowledge of Lucifer's fall, He went ahead knowing that from the corruption which would take place, SONS of God will come forth.

Have you ever seen a Gun or a Knife arraigned for murder? Why? They are compelled to do as directed by one who wield them.

1 Like

Re: Does God Really Know The Future? by Blabbermouth: 4:07pm On Sep 01
shadeyinka:

...
The first mistake and the principal reason for misconception is when many believers fictiously believe that there are some kind of "BABY FACTORIES" in heaven. That's quite wrong because your existence actually starts from the womb. So, there is no way your preexisting self could have destined anything for yourself. Well, this is my account, let me Give you the account of People who interact, talk, operate and Do things in the "future does not exist" reality.
The first on my List is:
1. GOD
Genesis 6:6
"And it repented God that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him at His heart"
A foreknowing God would have seen the Mess and would not Go on with... And if He also saw light at the end of the tunnel, then it shouldn't grieve him that He created Man on earth.

1Sam 2:30
"Wherefore the LORD God of Israel said, I said Indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me FOREVER: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honor me will I honor, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed."
Refutal: When God foreknew that Eli would cause Him to GO BACK ON HIS WORDS in the future, why did God go ahead to strike a promise with the House of Eli? God was all-about warning Eli to do something about His kids. Do you warn someone when you already foresee that He wouldn't do anything?
Commentary: It delighted God with the House of Eli that He would strike a covenant/promise with His house. Sadly, Eli's son began to introduce something Odd into the Picture. For God's ever abounding mercy, He warned Eli. Why? It was so so so so possible for Eli to have corrected his boys.

1 Sam 15:2-3
"Thus saith the LORD of Hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3. (God Instructing/commanding Saul) Now Go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, Camel and ass.
Rebuttal: Why is God Instructing Saul when He foreknows of His disobedience?
Commentary: God was instructing him because it was totally possible for Saul to Obey! The account of His disobedience does not exist!
You will see that this is very true in the next scriptures
Here was God himself speaking!
1 sam 15:11
" It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned his back from following Me, and hath not performed my commandments! "
Rebuttal: By foreknowledge, God need not to repent/regret. Seeing it already, would it have changed?
Commentary: That was because Saul's obedience/disobedience was undefined! That's the confidence of our free will. That way why God repented/regretted.

Now look at the following scripture and see God using the subjective/undefined word "IF" , and not "When", " After"....
God to Solomon
1 kings 3:14
"And IF you will walk in my ways, to keep my statues and My commandments, as thy father David did walk, THEN I will lengthen your days"
Rebuttal: God should have foreknown Solomon will fall. Why the God-to-son Advice and promise? Why Advise when you foreknow? Why do you warn when you foreknow?
Commentary: Solomon's steadfastness or Apostasy was undefined. Such, God was telling him "Hey, Hey, Hey, you had better walk in my ways, so that I shall delight in you". Why? Solomon's later disobedience was undefined.
God to Jeroboam
1 kings.11:38
" And it shall be, IF you will listen to all that I command you and walk in my ways........."
Rebuttal: The same thing with Solomon. Why did God elect Jeroboam? C'mon has all the men in Israel finished? When you foreknow that Jeroboam won't cut to standards, why pick him?
Then after picking him, why Advise him to Obey and Walk in His ways? Foreknowledge would have Just seen to it that we don't pick Jeroboam and find one that will do well.
Commentary: Jeroboam's Evil/Good ways was undefined and nonexistent (in account), thus the God-to-servant Admonitions and Advise.
I can Go on and on and on, to Jonah, Elijah, many many many many kings of Israel.
Summary: The God you and I worship does not interact, operate, talk, do as if a future exist! Why? Because a future (what will happen in future aside the established exceptions) does not exist!

The second on my List is
2. Lucifer/Devil/Satan/whatever you know him as:
Whether you like it or not, Lucifer knows God far far more than you do. Yet, the same Lucifer thought He had a chance against A God who can use His divine time machine to forward into the future and see results.
If God does that, Lucifer would surely know. Why then did Lucifer Strike a bet with God over Job's obedience/disobedience till the end? Commentary: Lucifer himself knew a future does not exist! That was his confidence and hope in thinking He had a shot at breaking Job and making him Go against God.
II. You remember David counting the census of Israel? Ha ha, I so much believe it was another JOB-like test for David. if so, then that is another instance where Devil and God interaction proved that there is nothing like future. (It turns out Brother David failed though)

The next on my lists
3. Prophets (yea, those same people you believe they some have a divine time Machine to see what God has not forthtold or permitted)
I. You remember the prophet that told a king to shoot arrows.
II. I do hope you've come across many prophets that tell you something about to happen but then use the "IF you do this, bla bla bla will happen"... " IF you don't, bla bla bla will happen "////
If what you will end up doing is already foreknown, why should God send his prophet to guide/warn you? The correct answer is: answer that yourself.
The last on my list is
4. YOU, ME and Everyone Living
No one lives live as though we've destined something for ourselves before coming to earth.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You mentioned the case of Peter and Judas. Well I should remind you of Pharaoh (who was raised solely for God to shew his might) and that Blind from Birth man (that was made so, solely for God to manifest himself through Christ!)
What shall we say then, God Orchestrating Pharaoh's action and making a man blind from birth is Evil? God forbid! They all served a purpose in Salvation. Yea, rather than take a foolish shortcut and closeup everything with FOREKNOWLEDGE, you should rather seek to unlock the mysteries that many of them symbolize.
Peter ain't in hellfire, how is God then Evil.
The same Pharaoh you might see in Heaven, How is God then Evil?
The same Judas that repented of His action and have a clear chance at getting saved, how is God then evil?
The blind man probably got saved, how is God then Evil?
Like I said, God is solely concern about you featuring in his Salvation-Bundle than the little little actions that matter now but matter no more later.
Re: Does God Really Know The Future? by MuttleyLaff: 5:48pm On Sep 01
Blabbermouth:
DrLivelogic, @the bolded was what I previously believed before. When you then ask (say, in a bible study) that "Why did God create Lucifer foreknowing He will fall?".... Everyone become as quiet and those attempting to answer try to stitch what they believe of God with God's foreknowledge.

Should we close our eyes? Where did Lucifer then see his own?
I don't assume something is right because well... I can't question it. I keep asking how a nonexistent Lucifer chose those things and every keep saying " Predestination is different from foreknowledge "... How? How? How? Is what I want to know. God used His foreknowledge power to know that Lucifer will fall... No problem. Who ordained Lucifer's fall? It doesn't make sense twisting things and saying a Nonexistent Lucifer ordained something for himself in time. Who wrote the future?
Men use the word "foreknowledge" because they are limited by time.
Shadeyinka has succinctly answered you that no one ordained Lucifer to fall short of God's standard, exception and/or target. It was Lucifer, as a matter of fact, who by himself, when the opportunity presented itself, did what he desired all along to do and so fell from grace to grass, on his own accord, when God lifted off His Hand, stepped back, "removed the hedge" and allowed Lucifer not restrained anymore, to do his worst

Blabbermouth:
Psalms 102? It's not a proof. What am I getting at? Nothing much, I want to see if something is true.
"Then I will pour out on the house of David
and on the people of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and prayer,
and they will look on Me, the One they have pierced
.
They will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only child,
and grieve bitterly for Him as one grieves for a firstborn son
"
- Zechariah 12:10

Blabbermouth, who is that talking, then also particularly looked at and pierced in Zechariah 12:10 above?
Re: Does God Really Know The Future? by shadeyinka(m): 7:06pm On Sep 01
I wish you had first negated the direct scriptures I gave to show you that God has a Foreknowledge of things and people before going to giving your arguments.

The scriptures cannot be broken. The scriptures is above a thousand words of argument!

Here below again. It takes only two scriptures showing that God has Foreknowledge for it to stand.

Here below again are the scriptures!

shadeyinka:

Let me try to simplify things for you here.
1. We both do not have problem with the fact that in some cases God does Forthtell the future.
2. Where we defer is in two major areas
a. You believe that God has no capability to Foreknow the future while I believe that God has the Capacity to Foreknow the future because time is subject to God just as space is subject to Him.
b. You seem to believe that man doesn't have a freewill while I believe that man has been given a Freewill to act within the limits of his environment.

Now, I will focus only with scriptures to show you that God Foreknows the future.

1. Daniel 2:28
However, there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries, and He has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will take place in the latter days. This was your dream and the visions in your mind while on your bed.


Except God is the author of the confusion in the world.

2. Romans 8:29
For those whom He foreknew , He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;


If God cannot have a Foreknowledge, how can He Foreknow?!

3. Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
And before you were born I consecrated you;
I have appointed you a prophet to the nation.


God said He knew Jeremiah before he was even conceived. He didn't say "Before you were conceived, a made you..". I don't know what else this can mean other than Gods Foreknowledge.

4. Romans 11:2
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?


Here the specific word used is FOREKNEW! How can you then still say God cannot Foreknow the future?


5. 1 Peter 1:2
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father , by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.


According to the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God. You can't argue against this unless you rewrite the scriptures.

6. Psalm 139:4
Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O Lord, You know it all .

Even David the king knew about this: except you mean that every word of David was implanted by God (and this will include when David plotted to kill Uriah)

Do you have an explanation against this!?

7. 1 Samuel 23:10-13
Then David said, “O Lord God of Israel, Your servant has heard for certain that Saul is seeking to come to Keilah to destroy the city on my account. Will the men of Keilah surrender me into his hand? Will Saul come down just as Your servant has heard? O Lord God of Israel, I pray, tell Your servant.” And the Lord said, “He will come down.” Then David said, “Will the men of Keilah surrender me and my men into the hand of Saul?” And the Lord said, “They will surrender you.”


As far as you are concerned, God declared/compelled that David will be betrayed and also declared/compelled that Saul will come down looking for David.

If God cannot know the future saved the one He declared: why ask Him for guidance?

8. Romans 8:28-30
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified

Those God FOREKNEW were those He PREDESTINATED to conform to the image of Christ His son.

9. Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love


God chose us in Christ BEFORE the foundation of the world. Isn't that a Foreknowledge?

10. John 6:64
But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him .


Please note the word "from the Beginning"! Are you saying that from the beginning God had declared some people not to believe and some to even betray Christ?

It's not by accident that we say God KNOWS the future!



Now, to your arguments

Blabbermouth:

The first mistake and the principal reason for misconception is when many believers fictiously believe that there are some kind of "BABY FACTORIES" in heaven. That's quite wrong because your existence actually starts from the womb.
Your are completely wrong here about what you think I believe.
There is NO baby factory in heaven and ones existence actually starts in the womb.

Blabbermouth:

So, there is no way your preexisting self could have destined anything for yourself.
This is a complete misrepresentation of what I believe. I have never insinuated that our preexisting self could have destined anything for itself. This is wrong!
A pre-existing self DOES NOT exist!

Blabbermouth:

Well, this is my account, let me Give you the account of People who interact, talk, operate and Do things in the "future does not exist" reality.
The first on my List is:
1. GOD
Genesis 6:6
"And it repented God that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him at His heart"
A foreknowing God would have seen the Mess and would not Go on with... And if He also saw light at the end of the tunnel, then it shouldn't grieve him that He created Man on earth.
1. You forget that the scriptures were not written by God but by men who write with human terms (according to their understanding of God). Does God have hands, eyes, nose, heart?

If God judges man, could we not assume in human terms that he was angry, disappointed, dissatisfied, hurt, regret etc. These are human terms used to describe God's actions.
2. No human being is guilty UNTIL he has committed a crime. God's Foreknowledge isn't enough reason for God to judge a man.

Blabbermouth:

1Sam 2:30
"Wherefore the LORD God of Israel said, I said Indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me FOREVER: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honor me will I honor, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed."
Refutal: When God foreknew that Eli would cause Him to GO BACK ON HIS WORDS in the future, why did God go ahead to strike a promise with the House of Eli? God was all-about warning Eli to do something about His kids. Do you warn someone when you already foresee that He wouldn't do anything?
Commentary: It delighted God with the House of Eli that He would strike a covenant/promise with His house. Sadly, Eli's son began to introduce something Odd into the Picture. For God's ever abounding mercy, He warned Eli. Why? It was so so so so possible for Eli to have corrected his boys.
1. Haven't I told you multiple times that the future is NOT CAST in STONE!?
The warning of IF is made in the present tense of Prophet Eli. He could have heeded Gods condition AND God would have seen Eli's OBEDIENCE rather than his failure.

Blabbermouth:

1 Sam 15:2-3
"Thus saith the LORD of Hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3. (God Instructing/commanding Saul) Now Go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, Camel and ass.
Rebuttal: Why is God Instructing Saul when He foreknows of His disobedience?
Commentary: God was instructing him because it was totally possible for Saul to Obey! The account of His disobedience does not exist!
You will see that this is very true in the next scriptures
1. If we are to look literally at this scripture, we should have concluded that God can forget some things only to REMEMBER them at a certain time.
2. Saul is NOT guilty until he has disobeyed a direct instruction.
3. Saul could have obeyed the direct instruction from God: and that exactly would have been Gods Foreknowledge of him

Blabbermouth:

Here was God himself speaking!

1 sam 15:11
" It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned his back from following Me, and hath not performed my commandments! "
Rebuttal: By foreknowledge, God need not to repent/regret. Seeing it already, would it have changed?
Commentary: That was because Saul's obedience/disobedience was undefined! That's the confidence of our free will. That way why God repented/regretted.
Num 23:19: "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? Or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"
The scripture mean that God doesn't make mistakes

In the case of Saul, aren't you saying that God made an error of judgement?

Do you now understand that the scriptures was written according to human expression of events.

Blabbermouth:

Now look at the following scripture and see God using the subjective/undefined word "IF" , and not "When", " After"....
God to Solomon
1 kings 3:14
"And IF you will walk in my ways, to keep my statues and My commandments, as thy father David did walk, THEN I will lengthen your days"
Rebuttal: God should have foreknown Solomon will fall. Why the God-to-son Advice and promise? Why Advise when you foreknow? Why do you warn when you foreknow?
Commentary: Solomon's steadfastness or Apostasy was undefined. Such, God was telling him "Hey, Hey, Hey, you had better walk in my ways, so that I shall delight in you". Why? Solomon's later disobedience was undefined.
God to Jeroboam
Did God know that Adam and Eve would eat the forbidden fruit? Then why did He plant it in the middle of the Garden of Eden? Why then did God tell Adam and Eve NOT to eat of the fruit? Why was God then angry when they eat of the fruit?

It looks like you believe that either God didn't know that they would eat of the fruit OR God declared that they must eat of the fruit!?

The clause "IF" is to show that man determines his future by his own actions. God simply see's whatever the choices that man made for himself. The future is a product of what man has done in the past AND what he does NOW!

Blabbermouth:

1 kings.11:38
" And it shall be, IF you will listen to all that I command you and walk in my ways........."
Rebuttal: The same thing with Solomon. Why did God elect Jeroboam? C'mon has all the men in Israel finished? When you foreknow that Jeroboam won't cut to standards, why pick him?
Then after picking him, why Advise him to Obey and Walk in His ways? Foreknowledge would have Just seen to it that we don't pick Jeroboam and find one that will do well.
Commentary: Jeroboam's Evil/Good ways was undefined and nonexistent (in account), thus the God-to-servant Admonitions and Advise.
I can Go on and on and on, to Jonah, Elijah, many many many many kings of Israel.
Summary: The God you and I worship does not interact, operate, talk, do as if a future exist! Why? Because a future (what will happen in future aside the established exceptions) does not exist!
Here is another instance where you insinuate that God was in error for choosing Jeroboam to be the king of Israel.

You forget that sometimes the wicked can be used by God to punish the erring righteous one.

1 Kgs 11:31-32:
"and he said to Jerobo´am, Take thee ten pieces: for thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, Behold, I will rend the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon, and will give ten tribes to thee: (but he shall have one tribe for my servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israelsmiley"


Blabbermouth:

The second on my List is
2. Lucifer/Devil/Satan/whatever you know him as:
Whether you like it or not, Lucifer knows God far far more than you do. Yet, the same Lucifer thought He had a chance against A God who can use His divine time machine to forward into the future and see results.
If God does that, Lucifer would surely know. Why then did Lucifer Strike a bet with God over Job's obedience/disobedience till the end? Commentary: Lucifer himself knew a future does not exist! That was his confidence and hope in thinking He had a shot at breaking Job and making him Go against God.
I'm other words, God can fail!?
Can God fail?

We can accuse satan of being limited in knowledge this believing that all men has a price.

But, do you think God could have LOST His challenge to Satan?


Blabbermouth:

II. You remember David counting the census of Israel? Ha ha, I so much believe it was another JOB-like test for David. if so, then that is another instance where Devil and God interaction proved that there is nothing like future. (It turns out Brother David failed though)

Did God vouch for David?

Blabbermouth:

The next on my lists
3. Prophets (yea, those same people you believe they some have a divine time Machine to see what God has not forthtold or permitted)
I. You remember the prophet that told a king to shoot arrows.
II. I do hope you've come across many prophets that tell you something about to happen but then use the "IF you do this, bla bla bla will happen"... " IF you don't, bla bla bla will happen "////
If what you will end up doing is already foreknown, why should God send his prophet to guide/warn you? The correct answer is: answer that yourself.
Never once did I insinuate that a Prophet has access to divine time Machine to see what God has not forthtold or permitted. This is another wrong belief system that is clouding your judgement.

A prophet knows only those things he had been shown: otherwise, they are like anyone of us.

No matter what we talk, your misrepresentations always cloud your judgement. I've said it over and over again that you always mix up Foretelling and Forthtelling: @red is another example.

If what you will end up doing is already foreknown forthtold, why should God send his prophet to guide/warn you?

But don't you see that you have just refused to understand that the future is NOT fixed. The future depends on the past and present actions. God only knows that which you DID (from the eternal past) and this is NOT PREFIXED.

How many times will I tell you that the FUTURE is NOT FIXED!

Blabbermouth:

The last on my list is
4. YOU, ME and Everyone Living
No one lives live as though we've destined something for ourselves before coming to earth.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You mentioned the case of Peter and Judas. Well I should remind you of Pharaoh (who was raised solely for God to shew his might) and that Blind from Birth man (that was made so, solely for God to manifest himself through Christ!)
What shall we say then, God Orchestrating Pharaoh's action and making a man blind from birth is Evil? God forbid! They all served a purpose in Salvation. Yea, rather than take a foolish shortcut and closeup everything with FOREKNOWLEDGE, you should rather seek to unlock the mysteries that many of them symbolize.
Peter ain't in hellfire, how is God then Evil.
The same Pharaoh you might see in Heaven, How is God then Evil?
The same Judas that repented of His action and have a clear chance at getting saved, how is God then evil?
The blind man probably got saved, how is God then Evil?
Like I said, God is solely concern about you featuring in his Salvation-Bundle than the little little actions that matter now but matter no more later.
Are you saying in other words that God orchestrates a man to commit evil in his name. And such evil is judged as righteousness?

Once again, negate all the scriptures (as related by me above) that directly says that God has Foreknowledge so that they can rhyme with your belief!
Re: Does God Really Know The Future? by Blabbermouth: 8:44pm On Sep 01
shadeyinka:
I wish you had first negated the direct scriptures I gave to show you that God has a Foreknowledge of things and people before going to giving your arguments.
........
Once again, negate all the scriptures (as related by me above) that directly says that God has Foreknowledge so that they can rhyme with your belief!
Shadeyinka, you got me wrong on my view of "freewill"...
My view: I believe in freewill and My view infact gives freewill every flexibility it needs.
The only issue is - " I believe, and at the same time try to show you that your view hinders freewill but you don't want to admit. You keep blaming it on my misrepresentation."
I will ask you a series of questions again and you will see I'm right.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Concerning the scriptures you ask me to negate, you will have to bear with me as I'm not really that free to answer them now. However, I definitely will, and after that( provided my explanation is satisfactory to you without bias), I will want you to go back to studying the scripture with a "future does not exist mindset (aside that which has been established to hapoen) and see if it's actually right or not.
Re: Does God Really Know The Future? by shadeyinka(m): 10:38pm On Sep 01
Blabbermouth:

Shadeyinka, you got me wrong on my view of "freewill"...
My view: I believe in freewill and My view infact gives freewill every flexibility it needs.
The only issue is - " I believe, and at the same time try to show you that your view hinders freewill but you don't want to admit. You keep blaming it on my misrepresentation."
I will ask you a series of questions again and you will see I'm right.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Concerning the scriptures you ask me to negate, you will have to bear with me as I'm not really that free to answer them now. However, I definitely will, and after that( provided my explanation is satisfactory to you without bias), I will want you to go back to studying the scripture with a "future does not exist mindset (aside that which has been established to hapoen) and see if it's actually right or not.
My view doesn't hinder freewill the tiniest bit.
My view:
1. A man has the ability to exercise his ability to make choices within the constraints of his environment.
2. A man's previous choices and his present choices (within the constraints of his environment) determine his future.
3. A man's future is NOT determined for him by God except in exceptional circumstances and for specific areas of his life.
4. A man by his freewill is given the power even to defy God if he wills so.
5. A man's future is determined solely by his PAST and PRESENT choices within the constraints of his environment.
6. Gods Foreknowledge is only a reflection of whatever a man chooses to do with his freewill within the constraints of his environment.
7. Finally, a man's future is NOT determined by God's foreknowledge! Gods Foreknowledge does NOT determine a man's future in any way.

God's Foreknowledge does NOT negate FREEWILL!

Are you sure you want to negate the scriptures?
Re: Does God Really Know The Future? by kkins25(m): 2:12pm On Sep 02
MuttleyLaff:


Whatever influences you is your god/God. Whatever empowers you is your god/God. Whatever you have trust in, is your god/God. Whatever you reverence, is your god/God. Whatever you adore, worship, pray to, have a meaningful relationship with, is your god/God [/size]
I don't see any difference between the 'g' and 'G', whatever difference exist- only exist in your mind.

The totality of possibilities exist in 'God', yet the outcome of any event cannot be known by 'God' until the the cause that would affect the outcome is effected.

Without the cause and effect principle, then the concept of 'freewill' is a sham and all creatures would be subject to the pre-installed genetic and psychological paradigm of the creature's environment. infact, because of the pre-installed genetic and psychological parameters of every creature the concept of righteous and unrighteousness is a downright ridiculous.
Re: Does God Really Know The Future? by MuttleyLaff: 4:37pm On Sep 02
kkins25:
I don't see any difference between the "g" and "G", whatever difference exist- only exist in your mind.
When a policeman/woman arrests you under the suspicion of driving under influence, he/she is telling you he/she has reasons to believe that you are driving under the influence of a "g" and of course not under the influence of "G". The chance of you being stopped by the representative of the law while under the influence of "G" is slim.

Either one of "g" and "G" are a reality(ies)


kkins25:
The totality of possibilities exist in 'God', yet the outcome of any event cannot be known by 'God' until the the cause that would affect the outcome is effected.
You are thinking this way with the reasoning of a mortal human being's level of thinking

kkins25:
Without the cause and effect principle, then the concept of 'freewill' is a sham and all creatures would be subject to the pre-installed genetic and psychological paradigm of the creature's environment. Infact, because of the pre-installed genetic and psychological parameters of every creature the concept of righteous and unrighteousness is a downright ridiculous.
Are you free and ready to be a volunteer and play the guinea pig role, I have in an experiment, to determine whether or not you have freewill and if there's the universal law of cause and effect? Also to see how much of this alleged pre-installed genetic and psychological thinking of the creature's environment will come or not come into play?

The cloth of righteousness was lost, right there, back in the Eden. The only way of having it back, the only way of restoring it, the only way of putting it back on is through Yahshua Ha Mashiach aka Jesus Christ, who dresses every believer, with a clothing of salvation and draped in a robe of righteousness (i.e. Job 29:14 and Isaiah 61:10)
Re: Does God Really Know The Future? by Blabbermouth: 11:44am On Sep 05
shadeyinka:

Your are completely wrong here about what you think I believe.
There is NO baby factory in heaven and ones existence actually starts in the womb.
Yes. But the problem is, you only know so but yet don't understand the implication. If you actually implemented this in answering the question, we would have landed at a common ground since.

This is a complete misrepresentation of what I believe. I have never insinuated that our preexisting self could have destined anything for itself. This is wrong!
A pre-existing self DOES NOT exist!
Yet you (and everyone that believes a future exist) can never explain how such a person orchestrated/wrote his own script before actually acting them out.

1. You forget that the scriptures were not written by God but by men who write with human terms (according to their understanding of God). Does God have hands, eyes, nose, heart?

If God judges man, could we not assume in human terms that he was angry, disappointed, dissatisfied, hurt, regret etc. These are human terms used to describe God's actions.
2. No human being is guilty UNTIL he has committed a crime. God's Foreknowledge isn't enough reason for God to judge a man.
You will claim "the future is not cast in stones" yet God has an absolute foreknowledge of the future. Whether you like it or not, that statement is contradictory.
From your number 1 point, if only you would take your own pill with your prescription, you would have known "foreknow" , "foreknowledge" and "fore- anything" are human term. Like I told you, God doesn't have tomorrow, next year, later, His realm is NOW! This was what I was trying to show you with the Lamb of God and Christ paradigm.

1. Haven't I told you multiple times that the future is NOT CAST in STONE!?
You said so as a man. But if God knows the future, then if we use God's standpoint, the future is actually cast in stones.
Remember when I asked you if I can Change what ought to happen in years time by my freewill, but you claimed God also saw my change.

The warning of IF is made in the present tense of Prophet Eli. He could have heeded Gods condition AND God would have seen Eli's OBEDIENCE rather than his failure.
I love this. I sensed you have taken a modified position now... From this, the future can be modelled as a dice with six (well, in real time "infinity"wink possible outcomes.
If not, do you remember you claimed God knows my whole future before I was born, and remember yo claimed God knows every minute details in that future. If so, Even before Saul was born, God foresaw that He (God) would warn Saul but Saul will still Go on to disobey him. So your last statement " God would have foreseen Eli's obedience " will only work if God has a foreknowledge of a dice-modelled future (I.e. God foresees every possible outcome but not the final one)... If not, then the "future exist theology" has failed here.

1. If we are to look literally at this scripture, we should have concluded that God can forget some things only to REMEMBER them at a certain time.
2. Saul is NOT guilty until he has disobeyed a direct instruction.
Number 1 is irrelevant to the discussion. No. 2 is alright with me.

3. Saul could have obeyed the direct instruction from God: and that exactly would have been Gods Foreknowledge of him
No he couldn't. God's foreknowledge (according to you) is perfect and He saw everything even before Saul was born. Again, why then did God warn Saul if he foreknew (even before Saul was born) that Saul will Bleep up.

Num 23:19: "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? Or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"
The scripture mean that God doesn't make mistakes
No. It means "God doesn't Go back on His words"... Contextually speaking...

In the case of Saul, aren't you saying that God made an error of judgement?
No. Far from it.

Do you now understand that the scriptures was written according to human expression of events.
I wished you would implement this yourself.

Did God know that Adam and Eve would eat the forbidden fruit? Then why did He plant it in the middle of the Garden of Eden? Why then did God tell Adam and Eve NOT to eat of the fruit? Why was God then angry when they eat of the fruit?
Adam and Eve are a very interesting subject. Unfortunately, I would prefer not to say anything on them.

It looks like you believe that either God didn't know that they would eat of the fruit OR God declared that they must eat of the fruit!?
I'm saying... A father doesn't put a stealing kid in charge of His treasures and then Beats him up when he himself knew the nature of the child.

The clause "IF" is to show that man determines his future by his own actions. God simply see's whatever the choices that man made for himself. The future is a product of what man has done in the past AND what he does NOW!
If I take you literally, you are subconsciously saying future does not exist. Look at yourself say "God sees whatever choices man MADE for himself"... That's my own stance. You should have said " God sees whatever choices man WILL MAKE for himself ".

Here is another instance where you insinuate that God was in error for choosing Jeroboam to be the king of Israel.
I didn't insinuate that. Read it again.

You forget that sometimes the wicked can be used by God to punish the erring righteous one.

1 Kgs 11:31-32:
"and he said to Jerobo´am, Take thee ten pieces: for thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, Behold, I will rend the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon, and will give ten tribes to thee: (but he shall have one tribe for my servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israelsmiley"
I said this to you about Hazael. Do you remember? By the way, the punishment does not in any way affect Jeroboam's uprightness or wickedness.

I'm other words, God can fail!?
Can God fail?
No. But Man can fail God.

We can accuse satan of being limited in knowledge this believing that all men has a price.
He will be laughing at this statement (I speak as a man).... He is a spirit! He would have known.

But, do you think God could have LOST His challenge to Satan?
I saw something in Bayern before placing my money on them against Barcelona. You dig?

Did God vouch for David?
It wasn't written. We should not force that notion.

Never once did I insinuate that a Prophet has access to divine time Machine to see what God has not forthtold or permitted. This is another wrong belief system that is clouding your judgement.
I go for essence and essence only. Do you then agree that A prophet ONLY foretells "what God has forthtold or permitted to happen in the future"?

A prophet knows only those things he had been shown: otherwise, they are like anyone of us.
I didn't say otherwise.

No matter what we talk, your misrepresentations always cloud your judgement. I've said it over and over again that you always mix up Foretelling and Forthtelling: @red is another example.
I've been direct from the start. I'm not mixing anything, you are the one with the belief of " Some part are God's foretelling of the future(E.g My eternal destination) and some are God's forthtelling of the future".

If what you will end up doing is already foreknown forthtold, why should God send his prophet to guide/warn you?
Provided I claimed "God forthtells everything", then you have a point. However I said, "God does not forthtell everything!"... So you see now, God DID NOT FORTHTELL ALL WHAT YOU WILL END UP DOING! Your freewill does! Can you now see how freewill comes in and how it fits perfectly?

But don't you see that you have just refused to understand that the future is NOT fixed. The future depends on the past and present actions. God only knows that which you DID (from the eternal past) and this is NOT PREFIXED.
Explain this with an illustration so that I don't end up misunderstanding you again.

How many times will I tell you that the FUTURE is NOT FIXED!
From man's standpoint but not from God. Remember when you said God saw my changes, repentance, going back on my words and all, He has checkmated everything and His foreknowledge is perfect. If we use God's standpoint, then the future is fixed. Or else, be ready to settle with the " God is not omniscient " stance.

Are you saying in other words that God orchestrates a man to commit evil in his name. And such evil is judged as righteousness?
Have you not gotten the memo? Haven't your eyes seen or your ears hear, that not by WORK shall any be saved but by Christ (through which grace and truth came). Haven't you heard? None is righteous, no, not one!
I'm saying we all have an unrestrained shot at Christ's Salvation (Even the likes of Enoch, Abraham, Moses and all needed the blood of Jesus).... That's where it matters. Not your works bro! Your works( righteousness or wickedness) helps you in the reward aspect not salvation aspect.

Once again, negate all the scriptures (as related by me above) that directly says that God has Foreknowledge so that they can rhyme with your belief!
Shadeyinka sir, I will do that this night.
Re: Does God Really Know The Future? by Blabbermouth: 7:59pm On Sep 05
I decided to do some light Word study today and I opened my Bible straight to Romans 9... Beloved, what I saw was shocking and I can't help but utter beneath my breathe "Wow! The spirit is one" ... Would it interest us all to realize that someone had gone before me and had expressed this truth in a more comprehensive manner than I did. ShadeYinka sir, shall we read this together (In-between the lines this time around)
Romans 9
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that callethwink
Commentary:
ShadeYinka and DrLiveLogic, I did say that Esau's and Jacob was God's orchestration/Declaration... Paul said the same!
Did I not tell you that Esau's character was nothing ignorant of God's orchestration?
Yet I say unto you, your character has never and will never be the factor for your salvation.
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Commentary:
ShadeYinka, this was what I asked when you raised the Judas case. Let's keep reading and see where it leads.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Commentary:
Do you see God in action here? You see for truth now what I was claiming with the likes of Pharaoh, Judas, and The blind man from birth that Jesus himself said "He was blind that the glory of God be manifested through Christ"...
If we are to start from Genesis and begin to unravel scriptures together, we will sure see how everything from Genesis-John typified, represented, and symbolize truths, law, secrets, mysteries, and realities in Christ. From " Let there be Light" yea! Down to "death of Ananias and Sapphira".

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Commentary:
ShadeYinka this was what you asked me, you remember?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Commentary:
woah! Glory! ShadeYinka, you remember I used the same words Paul used in verse 21? Here is Paul himself (under the unction of the Holy ghost) answering the question you asked me.
However I will add, God is focused on the essence, yea! The big picture! I mean Salvation and the eternal dispensation to come! So even if the potter uses the lump of clay for whatever he would, there is (A Must!) a chance still for the clay to key into the big picture!
Again bro, don't be surprised to see Pharaoh, Noah mockers, Genghis Khan, Judas Iscariot saved!

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Commentary:
Remember Judas? Remember Peter's Denial? Now would you agree that there was a mighty picture and a big mystery enshrouded in their acts.
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Commentary:
Glory! Glory! Glory!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Beloved ShadeYinka, so much misconception comes from reading the scripture with a preconceived notion (actually it's necessary but then, if the notion is not true, then we are bound to misinterprete the scriptures).... Let's see this together:
1. Daniel 2:28

However, there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries, and He has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will take place in the latter days. This was your dream and the visions in your mind while on your bed.
Except God is the author of the confusion in the world.
Commentary:
There is no future aside:
1. What God has forthtold
2. What God has permitted to happen...
When the Devil was casted out and his place taken, he was cast down to earth. Beloved, this Satan has not been sitting idly, he is so much involved in many things that happens in the world. There are two big pictures in Nebuchadnezzar's dream
1. The four World Kingdom (with the most prominent last King - The Antichrist)
2. The Kingdom of Christ coming to crush the Antichrist and the world kingdom.
Let's start with 2 - Did God foreknow(without actually being the declarer) that some being called Christ will come down to earth and Crush the world kingdom and bring salvation? God forbid! If It be so, Salvation was a coincidence. Here you have it, the part 2 was God's orchestration.
The four kingdoms are not ignorant of Satan's orchestration... That was why Gabriel in chapter 7/8 said to Daniel about some "Princes of the kingdom"... Specifically, Prince of Persia and Prince of Greece... And then he also made mention of Michael as the prince of Israel. Here you have it, Satan's declaration (by God permitted him).... Hahahahahahaha! The writer under the holyghost said " If they had known, they would not have crucified the king of Glory"!!! God looked at him and was more of "Lucifer, you are no match for my Christ. Even with all these you have planned, they will be instrumental for my Big picture!"

2. Romans 8:29

For those whom He foreknew , He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
If God cannot have a Foreknowledge, how can He Foreknow?!
Commentary:
To start with, God didn't tell you... It was a human using human terms!
Answer this: Did God foreknow His heirs literally? Did he foreknow the saved ones as 1. Blabber 2. Shade 3. Muttley? God forbid! That would be bias.
God didn't foreknow us individually, he Foreknew us all as "Heirs!" Yea beloved, "Joint heirs with Christ"... There were no literal names, it was a collective something.
Having established that, we should ask ; Who declared that God will redeem mankind through Christ? Who forthtold that Christ would be the firstborn of all HIS SONS? Is it not the Lord God Almighty? Again sir, Declaration/predestination/orchestration precedes foreknowledge.
Is it not logical then that God knows (well, Paul using terms " foreknow"wink what he has declared/forthtold?
Is it not direct that God knows (if you like use "foreknow" (it doesn't change anything)) His Sons whom he has declared before the foundation of the world? Ha ha, you see?

3. Jeremiah 1:5

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,

And before you were born I consecrated you;

I ORDAINED you a prophet to the nation.
Commentary:
Smiles... This point actually correlates with my view.
Let's take it one-by-one
God: Before I formed you in the womb I knew you
Question 1: what did God knew him as?
God: Before you were born I CONSECRATED YOU!
Question 2: What is God consecrating him for?
God (Answering my 2 questions): I ORDAINED YOU TO BE A PROPHET.
So What did God know Jeremiah as before he was born? Simple! As the LORD's prophet. Was it declared or foreknown? It was declared!
Before he was born what did God consecrate him for? Simple! To be the LORD'S prophet! Was it declared or foreknown? It was declared!
Ha ha, you see?

God said He knew Jeremiah before he was even conceived. He didn't say "Before you were conceived, a made you..". I don't know what else this can mean other than Gods Foreknowledge.
Read the last Line, God himself answered you.

[/b]4. Romans 11:2

God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
Here the specific word used is FOREKNEW! How can you then still say God cannot Foreknow the future?
Commentary:[/b] So? Because the word " foreknow" was used, what does that imply? That God knows some nonexistent future? Going by this we can say God has a heart that pumps blood or has a hand with 5 fingers... Ha ha, you see? On a more serious note, refer to the commentary on the second scripture.

5. 1 Peter 1:2
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father , by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
According to the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God. You can't argue against this unless you rewrite the scriptures.
Commentary:
We've dusted this before. God declared/forthtold Sons through Christ... Isn't it direct that one knows (if you like use "foreknow"wink what he has declared?

6. Psalm 139:4

Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O Lord, You know it all .

Even David the king knew about this: except you mean that every word of David was implanted by God (and this will include when David plotted to kill Uriah)
Do you have an explanation against this!?
Commentary:
Jesus has an explanation. Christ said " Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks forth"... Before there was a word on David's mouth, it was first in his heart. King David, Shade, And Blabber knows a man's heart is like an open book to the Lord.

7. 1 Samuel 23:10-13
Then David said, “O Lord God of Israel, Your servant has heard for certain that Saul is seeking to come to Keilah to destroy the city on my account. Will the men of Keilah surrender me into his hand? Will Saul come down just as Your servant has heard? O Lord God of Israel, I pray, tell Your servant.” And the Lord said, “He will come down.” Then David said, “Will the men of Keilah surrender me and my men into the hand of Saul?” And the Lord said, “They will surrender you.”
As far as you are concerned, God declared/compelled that David will be betrayed and also declared/compelled that Saul will come down looking for David.
If God cannot know the future saved the one He declared: why ask Him for guidance?[/quote]
Commentary:
Thou seest the heart of every man, yea! Even the heart of the men of Kilgal and their plans, nothing is hidden but all are all made known to you O LORD...

9. Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
God chose us in Christ BEFORE the foundation of the world. Isn't that a Foreknowledge?
Commentary:
Check commentary 2...

10. John 6:64

But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him .
Please note the word "from the Beginning"! Are you saying that from the beginning God had declared some people not to believe and some to even betray Christ?
Commentary:
The Holy spirit through Paul had dusted this in Romans 9...
What shall the lump of clay say to the potter? Why hath thou made me like this? No! It doesn't work that way. Romans 9:19-23

It's not by accident that we say God KNOWS the future!
Without bias and with all consistency with the scripture, I have been graced to give you a satisfactory expositions to the scriptures you posted. All glory to God!
Now ShadeYinka and any interested believer, it's my turn to question the " future exist" doctrine and your turn to answer me.
Should I carry on?
Re: Does God Really Know The Future? by Blabbermouth: 8:03pm On Sep 05
kkins25:
I don't see any difference between the 'g' and 'G', whatever difference exist- only exist in your mind.

The totality of possibilities exist in 'God', yet the outcome of any event cannot be known by 'God' until the the cause that would affect the outcome is effected.

Without the cause and effect principle, then the concept of 'freewill' is a sham and all creatures would be subject to the pre-installed genetic and psychological paradigm of the creature's environment. infact, because of the pre-installed genetic and psychological parameters of every creature the concept of righteous and unrighteousness is a downright ridiculous.
Spot on!
Re: Does God Really Know The Future? by orunto27: 8:15pm On Sep 05
Yes. God is Insight, Experience and Forsight meaning Wisdom, Knowledge and Understanding and Past, Present and Future.

1 Like

Re: Does God Really Know The Future? by Blabbermouth: 12:35am On Sep 07
MuttleyLaff:
"Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered
and laid bare before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account
"
- Hebrews 4:13

"For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth,
to show Himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is loyal to Him.
In this you have done foolishly; therefore from now on you shall have wars.”
"
- 2 Chronicles 16:9

"He reveals the deep and hidden things;
He knows what lies in darkness, and light dwells with Him
"
- Daniel 2:22

""Can a man hide in secret places where I cannot see him?" declares the LORD.
"Do I not fill the heavens and earth?" declares the LORD
"
- Jeremiah 23:24

"You know what I am going to say even before I say it, LORD
(i.e. And thou hast foreseen all my ways: for there is no speech in my tongue.
Or, even before there is a [single] word on my tongue, you know all about it, LORD.)
"
- Psalm 139:4

"The eyes of the LORD are everywhere.
They watch evil people and good people
"
- Proverbs 15:3

"... For the LORD sees every heart and knows every plan and thought.
If you seek him, you will find him.
But if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.
"
- 1 Chronicles 28:9b

"From the beginning I revealed to you what would happen.
These words came out of my mouth, and I made them known.
Suddenly, I acted, and they happened
"
- Jeremiah 16:17

"Who is this Blabbermouth that obscures My plans with words without knowledge?
(i.e. Who is this Blabbermouth that questions My wisdom with such ignorant words?
"Who is this Blabbermouth who keeps darkening My counsel without knowing what he's talking about?
Why do you Blabbermouth talk so much when you know so little?
Who is this Blabbermouth that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words?
Who are you Blabbermouth to question My wisdom with your ignorant, empty words?)
"
- Job 38:2
None of this scriptures back your view.... Different plot, different context, all swallowed up with a lazy "God saw the future" belief.
Re: Does God Really Know The Future? by MuttleyLaff: 3:35am On Sep 07
kkins25:
I don't see any difference between the 'g' and 'G', whatever difference exist- only exist in your mind.

The totality of possibilities exist in 'God', yet the outcome of any event cannot be known by 'God' until the the cause that would affect the outcome is effected.

Without the cause and effect principle, then the concept of 'freewill' is a sham and all creatures would be subject to the pre-installed genetic and psychological paradigm of the creature's environment. infact, because of the pre-installed genetic and psychological parameters of every creature the concept of righteous and unrighteousness is a downright ridiculous.

Blabbermouth:

Spot on!

MuttleyLaff:
When a policeman/woman arrests you under the suspicion of driving under influence, he/she is telling you he/she has reasons to believe that you are driving under the influence of a "g" and of course not under the influence of "G". The chance of you being stopped by the representative of the law while under the influence of "G" is slim.

Either one of "g" and "G" are a reality(ies)


You are thinking this way with the reasoning of a mortal human being's level of thinking

Are you free and ready to be a volunteer and play the guinea pig role, I have in an experiment, to determine whether or not you have freewill and if the universal law of cause and effect. Also to see how much of this alleged pre-installed genetic and psychological thinking of the creature's environment will come or not come into play.

The cloth of righteousness was lost, right there, back in the Eden. The only way of having it back, the only way of restoring it, the only way of putting it back on is through Yahshua Ha Mashiach aka Jesus Christ, who dresses every believer, with a clothing of salvation and draped in a robe of righteousness (i.e. Job 29:14 and Isaiah 61:10)
Blabbermouth, if you say "spot on", then are you game, free and ready to be a volunteer and play the guide pig role, in an experiment I have, to determine whether or not, you have freewill and if there's the universal law of cause and effect, hmm? Also to see how much of this alleged pre-installed genetic and psychological thinking of the creature's environment will come or not come into play?

1 Like

Re: Does God Really Know The Future? by MuttleyLaff: 3:45am On Sep 07
Blabbermouth:
None of this scriptures back your view.... Different plot, different context, all swallowed up with a lazy "God saw the future" belief.
"Then God said to him,
'Fool, in this night your soul will be required from you, and whose will these things be which you have prepared?'
(i.e. But God said to him,
'You fool! I will demand your life from you tonight! Now who will get what you've accumulated?')
"
- Luke 12:20

"Surely no one knows the future, and no one can tell another person what will happen"
- Ecclesiastes 8:7

"yet a fool keeps on babbling.
No one knows what will happen; who can tell him what will happen in the future?
"
- Ecclesiastes 10:14

Each of the scriptures back my observant view of you that you have limited and often underdeveloped knowledge that is exasperated by regimes of needless overthinking that promotes distortions of truth and rendered you to become an addict of denials

The different plot, different context, all join up together to provide a strong complement and solidarity, to the "God saw the future" sic belief.

Now why not tell. How did God know that the Rich fool in Luke 12:20 above will die later on, in the future, that night?
Re: Does God Really Know The Future? by Blabbermouth: 10:38am On Sep 07
MuttleyLaff:
"Then God said to him,
'Fool, in this night your soul will be required from you, and whose will these things be which you have prepared?'
(i.e. But God said to him,
'You fool! I will demand your life from you tonight! Now who will get what you've accumulated?')
"
- Luke 12:20

"Surely no one knows the future, and no one can tell another person what will happen"
- Ecclesiastes 8:7

"yet a fool keeps on babbling.
No one knows what will happen; who can tell him what will happen in the future?
"
- Ecclesiastes 10:14

Each of the scriptures back my observant view of you that you have limited and often underdeveloped knowledge that is exasperated by regimes of needless overthinking that promotes distortions of truth and rendered you to become an addict of denials

The different plot, different context, all join up together to provide a strong complement and solidarity, to the "God saw the future" sic belief.

Now why not tell. How did God know that the Rich fool in Luke 12:20 above will die later on, in the future, that night?
Good morning sir.
Your Question: How did God know that the Rich fool in Luke 12:20 above will die later on, in the future, that night?
God (Himself Speaking): You fool I will demand your life from you tonight
Scripture-Backed Answer: God himself took the rich fool's life.. That was God's orchestration/declaration! So what shall we say, God does not know what He himself has declared? This is the truth- there is nothing like future (as it doesn't exist) aside what God HAD DECLARED or PERMITTED to happen(I.e. God permitting another being's declaration of "what will happen)..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
We've assessed the scriptures you and Shade dropped. We will like to pen down ours and ask questions from them. Should I carry on?

1 Like

Re: Does God Really Know The Future? by Blabbermouth: 10:43am On Sep 07
MuttleyLaff:

Blabbermouth, if you say "spot on", then are you game, free and ready to be a volunteer and play the guide pig role, in an experiment I have, to determine whether or not, you have freewill and if there's the universal law of cause and effect, hmm? Also to see how much of this alleged pre-installed genetic and psychological thinking of the creature's environment will come or not come into play?
No problem. However, I also need to demonstrate how flawed and unreasonable everything will be if a " Fantasy-future" exist. Will you be my guest?
Re: Does God Really Know The Future? by MuttleyLaff: 6:42pm On Sep 07
Blabbermouth:
Good morning sir.
Hi, my dear beloved and loving brother sir

Blabbermouth:
Your Question:
How did God know that the Rich fool in Luke 12:20 above will die later on, in the future, that night?
God (Himself Speaking): You fool I will demand your life from you tonight
Scripture-Backed Answer: God Himself took the rich fool's life.. That was God's orchestration/declaration! So what shall we say, God does not know what He himself has declared?
This is the truth- there is nothing like future (as it doesn't exist) aside what God HAD DECLARED or PERMITTED to happen(I.e. God permitting another being's declaration of "what will happen)...
Blabbermouth, since according to your reasoning and deduction, the future doesnt exist, why dont you just burn all your money right now. At least there is nothing like future (i.e. as to you, it doesn't exist)

Why dont you behave like the birds in the sky, who don't plant or harvest, and hence to save for a raining day, dont save for the future, hmm?


Blabbermouth:
We've assessed the scriptures you and Shade dropped
I have not knowingly drop any scripture. Feel free to present what the scripture is and tell what you're picking bones at with it. I will be more than pleased to accommodate and/or indulge you

Blabbermouth:
We will like to open down ours and ask questions from them. Should I carry on?
Asking questions is to be encouraged. Asking valid questions certainly will mostly be welcomed and appreciated
Re: Does God Really Know The Future? by MuttleyLaff: 6:42pm On Sep 07
Blabbermouth:
No problem ...
What does "no problem" mean?

I asked that, if you say "spot on", then are you game, free and ready to be a volunteer and play the guinea pig role, in an experiment I have, to determine whether or not, you have freewill and if there's the universal law of cause and effect, hmm? This required a binary answer of Yes or No, not that your ambiguous "no problem" answer

We will do the experiment real time, so just make sure you have the time to act in the experiment. If you are game, then get back to me, so we can decide on a mutually agreeable time to carry out the experiment, with you starring as the guide pig


Blabbermouth:
... However, I also need to demonstrate how flawed and unreasonable everything will be if a "Fantasy-future" exist. Will you be my guest?
Anything to help a brother out. I have a premonition, your demonstration won't end well, that you'll likely hoist yourself up, with your very own petard
Re: Does God Really Know The Future? by Blabbermouth: 7:57pm On Sep 07
MuttleyLaff:
Hi, my dear beloved and loving brother sir
Sweetest heart...

Blabbermouth, since according to your reasoning and deduction, the future doesnt exist, why dont you just burn all your money right now. At least there is nothing like future (i.e. as to you, it doesn't exist)
Why dont you behave like the birds in the sky, who don't plant or harvest, and hence to save for a raining day, dont save for the future, hmm?
I have never met a man, no, not one that actually live, talk and interact as though a future exist. In practice, we all know there is nothing like future. In papers however, you all chide back thinking that it will make God less omniscient.
See what you asked me - Why am I saving money for the future? Why don't I just burn up all the money I have and live as free as the bird?
Can't you see? It is because I am very sure that there is nothing like a constant "what will happen in the future"... So I said to myself - If I save now, I have declared/orchestrated a means by which I will sustain myself in the future. My act of saving is me declaring (right from the present)what my future will be like.

If there was a constant account of my future (the one God has foreknown), then any thing that happens, I will say it is kádárá(I.e. Destiny) and just let things roll out as same with what God has foreseen...
A realm where a future exist is where I can live free as a bird (since I cannot change the script I wrote with my own hands).
Muttley, you seeing the light now aren't you?

I have not knowingly drop any scripture. Feel free to present what the scripture is and tell what you're picking bones at with it. I will be more than pleased to accommodate and/or indulge you
The ones I quoted nko I just didn't go explicit expounding them since the scriptures you gave were similar to Shadeyinka's own.

Asking questions is to be encouraged. Asking valid questions certainly will mostly be welcomed and appreciated
I will do that at the right time.
Re: Does God Really Know The Future? by Blabbermouth: 8:03pm On Sep 07
MuttleyLaff:
What does "no problem" mean?
It means - there is no problem.

I asked that, if you say "spot on", then are you game, free and ready to be a volunteer and play the guinea pig role, in an experiment I have, to determine whether or not, you have freewill and if there's the universal law of cause and effect, hmm? This required a binary answer of Yes or No, not that your ambiguous "no problem" answer
Yes. Bring it on! I and anyone reading might learn a thing or two.

We will do the experiment real time, so just make sure you have the time to act in the experiment. If you are game, then get back to me, so we can decide on a mutually agreeable time to carry out the experiment, with you starring as the guide pig
Tomorrow 8/9pm?

Anything to help a brother out. I have a premonition, your demonstration won't end well, that you'll likely hoist yourself up, with your very own petard
No. You guys are good at saying "You misunderstand so so so.... You confuse this for that".. When actually, you are the ones that don't take things as they are because you want to keep a belief.
Re: Does God Really Know The Future? by kkins25(m): 11:29am On Sep 08
MuttleyLaff:




Blabbermouth, if you say "spot on", then are you game, free and ready to be a volunteer and play the guide pig role, in an experiment I have, to determine whether or not, you have freewill and if there's the universal law of cause and effect, hmm? Also to see how much of this alleged pre-installed genetic and psychological thinking of the creature's environment will come or not come into play?
what experiment is that?
Re: Does God Really Know The Future? by shadeyinka(m): 3:32pm On Sep 08
Blabbermouth:
I decided to do some light Word study today and I opened my Bible straight to Romans 9... Beloved, what I saw was shocking and I can't help but utter beneath my breathe "Wow! The spirit is one" ... Would it interest us all to realize that someone had gone before me and had expressed this truth in a more comprehensive manner than I did. ShadeYinka sir, shall we read this together (In-between the lines this time around)
Romans 9
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that callethwink
Commentary:
ShadeYinka and DrLiveLogic, I did say that Esau's and Jacob was God's orchestration/Declaration... Paul said the same!
Did I not tell you that Esau's character was nothing ignorant of God's orchestration?
Yet I say unto you, your character has never and will never be the factor for your salvation.
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Commentary:
ShadeYinka, this was what I asked when you raised the Judas case. Let's keep reading and see where it leads.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Commentary:
Do you see God in action here? You see for truth now what I was claiming with the likes of Pharaoh, Judas, and The blind man from birth that Jesus himself said "He was blind that the glory of God be manifested through Christ"...
If we are to start from Genesis and begin to unravel scriptures together, we will sure see how everything from Genesis-John typified, represented, and symbolize truths, law, secrets, mysteries, and realities in Christ. From " Let there be Light" yea! Down to "death of Ananias and Sapphira".

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Commentary:
ShadeYinka this was what you asked me, you remember?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Commentary:
woah! Glory! ShadeYinka, you remember I used the same words Paul used in verse 21? Here is Paul himself (under the unction of the Holy ghost) answering the question you asked me.
However I will add, God is focused on the essence, yea! The big picture! I mean Salvation and the eternal dispensation to come! So even if the potter uses the lump of clay for whatever he would, there is (A Must!) a chance still for the clay to key into the big picture!
Again bro, don't be surprised to see Pharaoh, Noah mockers, Genghis Khan, Judas Iscariot saved!

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Commentary:
Remember Judas? Remember Peter's Denial? Now would you agree that there was a mighty picture and a big mystery enshrouded in their acts.
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Commentary:
Glory! Glory! Glory!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Beloved ShadeYinka, so much misconception comes from reading the scripture with a preconceived notion (actually it's necessary but then, if the notion is not true, then we are bound to misinterprete the scriptures).... Let's see this together:
1. Daniel 2:28

However, there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries, and He has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will take place in the latter days. This was your dream and the visions in your mind while on your bed.
Except God is the author of the confusion in the world.
Commentary:
There is no future aside:
1. What God has forthtold
2. What God has permitted to happen...
When the Devil was casted out and his place taken, he was cast down to earth. Beloved, this Satan has not been sitting idly, he is so much involved in many things that happens in the world. There are two big pictures in Nebuchadnezzar's dream
1. The four World Kingdom (with the most prominent last King - The Antichrist)
2. The Kingdom of Christ coming to crush the Antichrist and the world kingdom.
Let's start with 2 - Did God foreknow(without actually being the declarer) that some being called Christ will come down to earth and Crush the world kingdom and bring salvation? God forbid! If It be so, Salvation was a coincidence. Here you have it, the part 2 was God's orchestration.
The four kingdoms are not ignorant of Satan's orchestration... That was why Gabriel in chapter 7/8 said to Daniel about some "Princes of the kingdom"... Specifically, Prince of Persia and Prince of Greece... And then he also made mention of Michael as the prince of Israel. Here you have it, Satan's declaration (by God permitted him).... Hahahahahahaha! The writer under the holyghost said " If they had known, they would not have crucified the king of Glory"!!! God looked at him and was more of "Lucifer, you are no match for my Christ. Even with all these you have planned, they will be instrumental for my Big picture!"

2. Romans 8:29

For those whom He foreknew , He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
If God cannot have a Foreknowledge, how can He Foreknow?!
Commentary:
To start with, God didn't tell you... It was a human using human terms!
Answer this: Did God foreknow His heirs literally? Did he foreknow the saved ones as 1. Blabber 2. Shade 3. Muttley? God forbid! That would be bias.
God didn't foreknow us individually, he Foreknew us all as "Heirs!" Yea beloved, "Joint heirs with Christ"... There were no literal names, it was a collective something.
Having established that, we should ask ; Who declared that God will redeem mankind through Christ? Who forthtold that Christ would be the firstborn of all HIS SONS? Is it not the Lord God Almighty? Again sir, Declaration/predestination/orchestration precedes foreknowledge.
Is it not logical then that God knows (well, Paul using terms " foreknow"wink what he has declared/forthtold?
Is it not direct that God knows (if you like use "foreknow" (it doesn't change anything)) His Sons whom he has declared before the foundation of the world? Ha ha, you see?

3. Jeremiah 1:5

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,

And before you were born I consecrated you;

I ORDAINED you a prophet to the nation.
Commentary:
Smiles... This point actually correlates with my view.
Let's take it one-by-one
God: Before I formed you in the womb I knew you
Question 1: what did God knew him as?
God: Before you were born I CONSECRATED YOU!
Question 2: What is God consecrating him for?
God (Answering my 2 questions): I ORDAINED YOU TO BE A PROPHET.
So What did God know Jeremiah as before he was born? Simple! As the LORD's prophet. Was it declared or foreknown? It was declared!
Before he was born what did God consecrate him for? Simple! To be the LORD'S prophet! Was it declared or foreknown? It was declared!
Ha ha, you see?


Read the last Line, God himself answered you.

[/b]4. Romans 11:2

God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
Here the specific word used is FOREKNEW! How can you then still say God cannot Foreknow the future?
Commentary:[/b] So? Because the word " foreknow" was used, what does that imply? That God knows some nonexistent future? Going by this we can say God has a heart that pumps blood or has a hand with 5 fingers... Ha ha, you see? On a more serious note, refer to the commentary on the second scripture.

5. 1 Peter 1:2
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father , by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
According to the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God. You can't argue against this unless you rewrite the scriptures.
Commentary:
We've dusted this before. God declared/forthtold Sons through Christ... Isn't it direct that one knows (if you like use "foreknow"wink what he has declared?

6. Psalm 139:4

Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O Lord, You know it all .

Even David the king knew about this: except you mean that every word of David was implanted by God (and this will include when David plotted to kill Uriah)
Do you have an explanation against this!?
Commentary:
Jesus has an explanation. Christ said " Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks forth"... Before there was a word on David's mouth, it was first in his heart. King David, Shade, And Blabber knows a man's heart is like an open book to the Lord.

7. 1 Samuel 23:10-13
Then David said, “O Lord God of Israel, Your servant has heard for certain that Saul is seeking to come to Keilah to destroy the city on my account. Will the men of Keilah surrender me into his hand? Will Saul come down just as Your servant has heard? O Lord God of Israel, I pray, tell Your servant.” And the Lord said, “He will come down.” Then David said, “Will the men of Keilah surrender me and my men into the hand of Saul?” And the Lord said, “They will surrender you.”
As far as you are concerned, God declared/compelled that David will be betrayed and also declared/compelled that Saul will come down looking for David.
If God cannot know the future saved the one He declared: why ask Him for guidance?
Commentary:
Thou seest the heart of every man, yea! Even the heart of the men of Kilgal and their plans, nothing is hidden but all are all made known to you O LORD...

9. Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
God chose us in Christ BEFORE the foundation of the world. Isn't that a Foreknowledge?
Commentary:
Check commentary 2...

10. John 6:64

But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him .
Please note the word "from the Beginning"! Are you saying that from the beginning God had declared some people not to believe and some to even betray Christ?
Commentary:
The Holy spirit through Paul had dusted this in Romans 9...
What shall the lump of clay say to the potter? Why hath thou made me like this? No! It doesn't work that way. Romans 9:19-23

It's not by accident that we say God KNOWS the future!
Without bias and with all consistency with the scripture, I have been graced to give you a satisfactory expositions to the scriptures you posted. All glory to God!
Now ShadeYinka and any interested believer, it's my turn to question the " future exist" doctrine and your turn to answer me.
Should I carry on?


My Dear Blabbermouth,
All your argument is to show that in some case0s God PREDESTINES and
therefore could FORTHTELL the future.

Have you seen anyone who believes in God having a FOREKNOWLEDGE of the
future ALSO arguing that God DOES NOT Forthtell nor Predestine?
The answer is a BIG FAT NO!!

Having I given you enough scriptures that specifically speaks about
God having a Foreknowledge?

If you can NEGATE such scriptures by exclusively showing that God does
NOT have a Foreknowledge of things, bring it on. Otherwise, you have
no iota of presentable logical argument.

Don't forget that your main thrust of argument is to show
that God Does NOT have FOREKNOWLEDGE hence He CANNOT FORETELL events
Your view is that God can only
PREDESTINE/FOREORDAIN/FORTHTELL events to BE and any KNOWLEDGE of the
future God has is a product of such Manipulation.

Bro!
Rephrase your argument inline with this.

Now to your last question:
Now ShadeYinka and any interested believer, it's my turn to
question the " future exist" doctrine and your turn to answer
me.
It depend on what you mean by exist.

You question is like asking:
"Will the SUN be visible tomorrow?"
"Will Nigeria exist tomorrow?"
"Will Humanity be alive tomorrow?"
If tomorrow DOESNT exist, then with affirmation the answer to the
three questions above will be an emphatic NO otherwise, the answer YES
to the above questions mean that the future exists!

BUT if what you mean by the question is that "Is the future cast in
stone?" or "Is the future already determined?",
then the answer is NO!

I have told you uncountable times:
The future is not cast in stone meaning that the future has NOT been
Predetermined.
What I have consistently told you is that God is not subject to our
Linear TIME: meaning that God can be anywhere in space and time and
thus is Omnipresent and Omniscient. Whatever a man does in his present
is what God sees (even from the eternal past)!

1 Like

Re: Does God Really Know The Future? by Blabbermouth: 3:55pm On Sep 08
shadeyinka:

My Dear Blabbermouth,
All your argument is to show that in some cases God PREDESTINES and
therefore could FORTHTELL the future.
Have you seen anyone who believes in God having a FOREKNOWLEDGE of the
future ALSO arguing that God DOES NOT Forthtell nor Predestine?
The answer is a BIG FAT NO!!
Okay?

Having I given you enough scriptures that specifically speaks about
God having a Foreknowledge?
None of the scriptures you've given proves that God has a foreknowledge of the future he has not forthtold/declared.

If you can NEGATE such scriptures by exclusively showing that God does
NOT have a Foreknowledge of things, bring it on. Otherwise, you have
no iota of presentable logical argument.
I took your scriptures one by one and expounded them to truth. Y'all swallowed up so many things with "God knew the future" Whereas, that is not the case.

Don't forget that your main thrust of argument is to show
that God Does NOT have FOREKNOWLEDGE hence He CANNOT FORETELL events
Your view is that God can only
PREDESTINE/FOREORDAIN/FORTHTELL events to BE and any KNOWLEDGE of the
future God has is a product of such Manipulation.
You missed the last notion - God can also know (if you like use "foreknow"wink events to Be that were declared by other beings, provided He himself has permitted it to happen.

Bro!
Rephrase your argument inline with this.
Nothing there.

Now to your last question:
It depend on what you mean by exist.

You question is like asking:
"Will the SUN be visible tomorrow?"
"Will Nigeria exist tomorrow?"
"Will Humanity be alive tomorrow?"
If tomorrow DOESNT exist, then with affirmation the answer to the
three questions above will be an emphatic NO otherwise, the answer YES
to the above questions mean that the future exists!
This is a weak attempt at using English to hide. The second definition for "future" according to Oxford dictionary is "What will happen in time"... So when I tell you " future does not exist", i'm saying there is nothing like the account of "what will happen" except the exception I gave.

BUT if what you mean by the question is that "Is the future cast in
stone?" or "Is the future already determined?",
then the answer is NO!
ShadeYinka, let's face truth and not dilly dally with English. Does God have an absolute/precise (put the word " precise" in many quotes) foreknowledge about what will happen in the future?
Shadeyinka: Yes.
Then the future (from God's standpoint) is cast in stones! Sorry bro, no two ways about it.

I have told you uncountable times:
The future is not cast in stone meaning that the future has NOT been
Predetermined.
Yet God saw what I've not determined. If i've not determined it, then it doesn't exist. If it doesn't exist, God has no account of it. Oga mi, that's what freewill actually is. Don't force qualities for God please.

What I have consistently told you is that God is not subject to our
Linear TIME: meaning that God can be anywhere in space and time and
thus is Omnipresent and Omniscient. Whatever a man does in his present
is what God sees (even from the eternal past)!
Bro, your model does not work in real time. It's only an already recorded C.D you can forward... Brother, you can't forward into a future that is not cast in stones.
Re: Does God Really Know The Future? by shadeyinka(m): 5:39pm On Sep 08
Blabbermouth:

Okay?

None of the scriptures you've given proves that God has a foreknowledge of the future he has not forthtold/declared.
I took your scriptures one by one and expounded them to truth. Y'all swallowed up so many things with "God knew the future" Whereas, that is not the case.
Really!?
shadeyinka:

Let me try to simplify things for you here.
1. We both do not have problem with the fact that in some cases God does Forthtell the future.
2. Where we defer is in two major areas
a. You believe that God has no capability to Foreknow the future while I believe that God has the Capacity to Foreknow the future because time is subject to God just as space is subject to Him.
b. You seem to believe that man doesn't have a freewill while I believe that man has been given a Freewill to act within the limits of his environment.

Now, I will focus only with scriptures to show you that God Foreknows the future.

1. Daniel 2:28
However, there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries, and He has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will take place in the latter days. This was your dream and the visions in your mind while on your bed.


Except God is the author of the confusion in the world.

2. Romans 8:29
For those whom He foreknew , He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;


If God cannot have a Foreknowledge, how can He Foreknow?!

3. Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
And before you were born I consecrated you;
I have appointed you a prophet to the nation.


God said He knew Jeremiah before he was even conceived. He didn't say "Before you were conceived, a made you..". I don't know what else this can mean other than Gods Foreknowledge.

4. Romans 11:2
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?


Here the specific word used is FOREKNEW! How can you then still say God cannot Foreknow the future?


5. 1 Peter 1:2
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father , by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.


According to the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God. You can't argue against this unless you rewrite the scriptures.

6. Psalm 139:4
Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O Lord, You know it all .

Even David the king knew about this: except you mean that every word of David was implanted by God (and this will include when David plotted to kill Uriah)

Do you have an explanation against this!?

7. 1 Samuel 23:10-13
Then David said, “O Lord God of Israel, Your servant has heard for certain that Saul is seeking to come to Keilah to destroy the city on my account. Will the men of Keilah surrender me into his hand? Will Saul come down just as Your servant has heard? O Lord God of Israel, I pray, tell Your servant.” And the Lord said, “He will come down.” Then David said, “Will the men of Keilah surrender me and my men into the hand of Saul?” And the Lord said, “They will surrender you.”


As far as you are concerned, God declared/compelled that David will be betrayed and also declared/compelled that Saul will come down looking for David.

If God cannot know the future saved the one He declared: why ask Him for guidance?

8. Romans 8:28-30
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified

Those God FOREKNEW were those He PREDESTINATED to conform to the image of Christ His son.

9. Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love


God chose us in Christ BEFORE the foundation of the world. Isn't that a Foreknowledge?

10. John 6:64
But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him .


Please note the word "from the Beginning"! Are you saying that from the beginning God had declared some people not to believe and some to even betray Christ?

It's not by accident that we say God KNOWS the future!


Blabbermouth:

You missed the last notion - God can also know (if you like use "foreknow"wink events to Be that were declared by other beings, provided He himself has permitted it to happen.

Nothing there.
Its the same thing: You are saying God cannot know anything except it has either been done or declared even by man.
Watch what David said:

6. Psalm 139:4
Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O Lord, You know it all .


In other words, before David had declared his mind, the Lord already knew it. Isn't this contrary to your "God only knows what has been declared by himself or declared by man"?

Do you have an explanation against this!?


Blabbermouth:

This is a weak attempt at using English to hide. The second definition for "future" according to Oxford dictionary is "What will happen in time"... So when I tell you " future does not exist", i'm saying there is nothing like the account of "what will happen" except the exception I gave.

ShadeYinka, let's face truth and not dilly dally with English. Does God have an absolute/precise (put the word " precise" in many quotes) foreknowledge about what will happen in the future?
Shadeyinka: Yes.
Then the future (from God's standpoint) is cast in stones! Sorry bro, no two ways about it.

Yet God saw what I've not determined. If i've not determined it, then it doesn't exist. If it doesn't exist, God has no account of it. Oga mi, that's what freewill actually is. Don't force qualities for God please.

Bro, your model does not work in real time. It's only an already recorded C.D you can forward... Brother, you can't forward into a future that is not cast in stones.
I gave you two mutually exclusive definitions with an "OR" and without reading it for comprehension you just focused on one as it was just a play of English words!?

@Red
You are so fixed in using mans limitation to limit God
Is God omnipresent? How is it possible by mans standard?
Is God omnipotent? How is that possible by mans standard?

Now, your problem is not about the two above but by the third:
Is God omniscient? You say no!
Your argument: it is impossible for humans to know the future, hence God cannot.
Cant you see the logical falacy?

@Blue
Bro, your model does not work in real time. It's only an already recorded C.D you can forward... Brother, you can't forward into a future that is not cast in stones.
As far as you are concerned. Time is one creation that God cannot bend!

It seems some people still do not realize that God is a Spirit. Time is only relevant and meaningful for PHYSICAL things.
How many years did it take John of the Book of Revelation to see the revelation that he was given?
And all the events were Declared to happen by God!?

1 Like

Re: Does God Really Know The Future? by Martehco: 8:57pm On Sep 09
shadeyinka:

Really!?




Its the same thing: You are saying God cannot know anything except it has either been done or declared even by man.
Watch what David said:

6. Psalm 139:4
Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O Lord, You know it all .


In other words, before David had declared his mind, the Lord already knew it. Isn't this contrary to your "God only knows what has been declared by himself or declared by man"?

Do you have an explanation against this!?



I gave you two mutually exclusive definitions with an "OR" and without reading it for comprehension you just focused on one as it was just a play of English words!?

@Red
You are so fixed in using mans limitation to limit God
Is God omnipresent? How is it possible by mans standard?
Is God omnipotent? How is that possible by mans standard?

Now, your problem is not about the two above but by the third:
Is God omniscient? You say no!
Your argument: it is impossible for humans to know the future, hence God cannot.
Cant you see the logical falacy?

@Blue

As far as you are concerned. Time is one creation that God cannot bend!

It seems some people still do not realize that God is a Spirit. Time is only relevant and meaningful for PHYSICAL things.
How many years did it take John of the Book of Revelation to see the revelation that he was given?
And all the events were Declared to happen by God!?
what make you thought such way?
Re: Does God Really Know The Future? by kkins25(m): 9:39pm On Sep 10
[quote author=Blabbermouth post=93240594][/quote]
You said so, not God.
Exactly..
Honestly thats why i don't take all this people serious who would quote the 'bible' to prove the authenticity of the bible. lame.. smh.


I will address your prophecy question in that your reply where you specifically asked about prophecy.
wink

God, You, Devil, Angels and co. Any being with a will and an active force. Howbeit, even if Herod tried to orchestrate Baby Jesus' death, God didn't permit it. So God sometimes will not allow what you declare to come to pass.

The person in question. God didn't stop him, He is not a policeman na, more of A Judge.
Exactly again....

You still don't see that until "a future doesn't exist" unlimits God in every way. You are still confined by the "future exist" mentality.
yes. A future does not exist, but in my opinion- not in the sense that there is no tomorrow. If i put myself in the shoes of God, then it means i knowledge of all possible futures. However, giving that each object in my simulation has freewill i am incapable of knowing what the object would decide when options A,B,C,D,... are presented before it. nonetheless, being the God that i am, i can narrow down the possible choices that the object would take since i know the factors that influence his decision. its like putting cheese in front of a rat, you know it would definitely take a bite.

Yet you claimed God does not have a future .... As at the point of God blessing Abram, the account of God's Adventure with Moses was still in some so-called "future". Why then did you claim God does not have a future?
If I pull this string so far, you will see how much an existing future limits God.
grin grin grin i think we need to ask yinka what future means.

In God's realm, 1. Prophecy is forthelling 2. Prophecy is Knowing what anyone has forthtold 3.

You see? He didn't say "Foreknow", My God said " Know".... Press rewind and Go to Genesis 17:5-8
"Neither shall your name be Abram but Abraham; for a father of many nations Have I made thee
6. And I will makethee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

My God did not foreknow Abraham will be a blessing and a Father of many nation, My God
Declared/orchestrated and made Abraham A father of Many Nation. That is the word of God and it is true all the time.

Also, (@your highlight) that was[b] God's confidence in Abraham.[/b] The same way I have 100% confidence that my wife cannot cheat with another man. This is a similar confidence God had in Job when He struck a daring bet with the Devil.
We both know the Devil knows God far more than any of us here, the clever serpent will never enter into A bet if God has already foreknew the outcome (Now learn something new from God's discussion with the Devil).
The Devil knew that the outcome(that Job will leave God or not) was [b]undefined and it doesn't exist yet and that was his confidence to believe he had a shot at winning... Ah ah, do you see? Even the devil knows that a future account that God himself has not declared or permitted to happen does not exist.
[/b]

You still don't understand. Prophecy is not only "foretelling", it is also " forthtelling".
A prophet can Declare an account to happen in the future by the unction of the Holy spirit with a throne in heaven that backs him up. Such account will happen with no piece missing.
1. The Prophet by the Holy spirit declared such account to happen as a sign to Saul... OR God himself declares such an account to happen.
Either ways, it is inevitable that such must be "Declared" and will require God's permission for it to occur.
Now, do you now see the reason *Prophecies are not wished but fought into manifestation*?

That we don't want to believe something does not mean it is not true. This is your opinion and it's not the Word of God, so I'm unbothered.

Then it's God fault for bringing him to life. Also, if we go with this mentality then there is that kind of develish darkness in God or else, where did Lucifer see his own?
God forbid! The scripture says .... "his works are PERFECT"....

According to you, he will act it out, it's just a matter of time.

Stop shadowboxing, he couldn't... According to you, his account in future times does not capture him "living in obedience", so no need to eat your cake and still ask for it.
indeed. if God knows the future then he is to blame for every single err in this universe.

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