samuk:
Below is what this Yoruba student of history claimed earlier in the thread. Hopefully he has saw the 1863 document that referenced Oba Adolo (Oba Ovonramwen's father).

what 1863 document called Adolo an "Oba"?

Edeyoung:



Ok i agree it started with ovaremwen what changed

Does it makes oromiyan find the dynasty during ovaremwen reign


Sicko

Ni sense

If we are to use this same logic on your kings thsn thier stool would have beging 1900

Macof you need sleep

LOL. There are texts from both "Mohammedans" and Europeans refering to Yoruba Kings with their title.
But you see this logic of yours gregyboy, that states a thing is non existent if Europeans didn't write it shows how dull you are and this is the logic I will use to floor you from now on

So far as consistency with your logic goes, your oba is nothing but a new dynasty not up to 200 years, borrowed from the Yoruba

Edeyoung:



You self you be winch, youre the man of the match in this thread bro

Even with their bannee

TAO12 is going to dig for more with her smelling pussy

The truth is many early Benin historical records were not written in English. Most of the Vatican's records are in Latin, there are still records in Portuguese, Dutch, French and other European languages that I couldn't find the English translations. The 1863 record was done by an English man, so it was easier to find.

macof:
what 1863 document called Adolo an "Oba"?

Are you on this thread or you are only here to be spoon feed by Tao11. Go back to page 12, there is a document written in 1863 about an English man that interviewed Oba Adolo, the father of Oba Ovonramwen in 1862. Adolo was misspelt as Atolo. It's on the 6st line on the first page.

No wonder you have been arguing blindly.

macof:


LOL. [s]There are texts from both "Mohammedans" and Europeans refering to Yoruba Kings with their title[/s].
But you see this logic of yours gregyboy, that states a thing is non existent if Europeans didn't write it shows how dull you are and this is the logic I will use to floor you from now on

So far as consistency with your logic goes, your oba is nothing but a new dynasty not up to 200 years, borrowed from the Yoruba

Yoruba is a made up shit, they have no history Europeans have been with the yoruba clan like ijebu, itsekiri aworis as early 16c

My point is benin-ife never existed not on the basis that fact wasnt features in European text but also no archaeological fact


I always pity the yorubas when am dealing with European records on them so as not to be biased


Oromiyan oduduwa were all deity never existed i never used European text to come to this conclusion

Going by your dump new found logic

How did yoruba establish ovaremwen dynasty
Tell me is it oromiyan or what, since you claim so

You turned yourself to a joke
I used to reference your historical knowledge but you made TAO11 bring you low


If i talk too much yoruba mods would ban me so i leave it here


Again am gregyboy not edo young have you gone insane

So everyone who believes benin-ife never existed must be gregyboy

Lol insanity is tripping in slowly

I scrapped that part, the word oba was used to describe the notable benin monarch in the ancient times, and yorubas picked it up to represent a general word kingship to promote their title

samuk:


The truth is many early Benin historical records were not written in English. Most of the Vatican's records are in Latin, there are still records in Portuguese, Dutch, French and other European languages that I couldn't find the English translations. The 1863 record was done by an English man, so it was easier to find.

If there were words like oba in the writeup you are good to go

So far in the course of this thread, the following retar.ded claims have been devastatingly debunked:

(1) The retar.ded claim (by disgruntled Binis) that Yorubas began using the word “Oba” in the post-1930s.

This has been debunked with written evidence of Yoruba usage from 1899, from 1897, from c.1867, from 1845, et al.

(2) The retar.ded claim (by @samuk) that there exists some “600 years” old written evidence of Benin usage of the word “Oba”.

This retar.ded claim is yet to be substantiated (even with an atom of evidence) despite more than 10 days (and still counting) of their torturous search.

Instead, these disgruntled Binis were at best only able to demonstrate (from their own warped logic) that the Yorubas have an earlier written evidence — 1845 (Yoruba) Vs. 1867 (Bini).

——————————————————
But what does it really mean that I was able to produce an 1845 written evidence and the Binis weren’t able to come even close to that ??

Well, it just simply means that the Binis weren’t able to come close to the Yorubas, despite their own bogus claim of wRiTteN eViDeNcE. Nothing more, nothing less! [I know I’m being too nice now].

To put the same question in other words:
Does the comparative written evidence already provided really mean that the Binis began using this word only in the year 1867 — because that’s all they could provide ??

Funny enough, this line of warped reasoning is what the disgruntled Binis have been trailing. Should I play their game along with them? No, I’m Yoruba!

To every sound and logically mind, such conclusion (based on available writing) is too obvious as a flawed reasoning and logical fallacy — even though I could have forced their own flawed reasoning down their throats.

Such particular logical fallacy is know in analytical logic specifically by the name: argumentum ex silentio.

————————————————————
Having debunked their deluded claim of 1930s [see (1)]; having exposed @samuk’s fraud of “600 years” old writing [see (2)]; having exposed their inability to produce anything close to (let alone earlier than) the Yorubas’ [see (2)]; having debunked their warped logic of arguing from earlier written usage (despite the fact that it favours me); I now turn, at this point, to discussing the actual objective evidence for determining the indigenous ownership of a word — that is, the linguistic evidence.

——————————————————————
The Argument:
(I) If a word is in use in a particular language, but its literal meaning can not be meaningfully analyzed within that language; then such word does not originally belong to that language. Gbam!

(II) The word “Ọba” (as used by the Binis for their monarch) does not have any literal meaning in the language of the Binis.

(III) In conclusion, the word “Ọba” (as used by the Binis for their monarch) does not belong originally to the Bini language — In other words, it is a loanword.

————————————————————
The Evidence:
An objective source of evidence for the meanings of Bini words is obviously and undoubtedly an authoritative dictionary of the Bini language itself.

[This is not to be confused with a dictionary of the English language which simply features a paltry number of non-English words of widespread, global, popular usage — such as: “fufu”, “agbada”, “oba”, et al.]

As such, recourse will now be made to a Bini-English Lexicon. This is so that the English readers here can access the written meanings which are attributed to the actual Bini words.

One such example of an authoritative material for this purpose is the work entitled: “A Concise Dictionary of The Bini Language of Southern Nigeria” compiled by the professor of African Phonetics and Linguistics, Hans Melzian.

———————————————————
Under the entry “Ọba” (for which Professor Melzian used “ɔ” to represent “ọ“, in order to distinguish /o/ as in odd from /o/ as in old ); the following are some interesting observations from this Bini dictionary.

(A) Unlike what the author did with virtually all other Bini words within the same dictionary, he did not give a literal meaning to this word — as I have expected.

Rather, he simply describes the person whom the Binis refer to by this word. Interesting, isn’t it?! See embedded image below:

www.nairaland.com/attachments/12754901_bb7fcaad09fc479498aedbb24cb57370_jpeg_jpeg80dbd02cb7ce1db81e998db7e161c38e

(B) But more than that, the author (in fact) let the cat out of the bag. He revealed why this word could not have had a literal meaning in a dictionary of Bini language.

Before I reveal his reason, it is important that one is acquainted with a few notations and abbreviations which he define in his work.

Two examples of these are relevant to my discourse here, and they are: “Yor.” and “cf.” which he defines as: “Yoruba” and “etymological reference” respectively.

See embedded image below:

www.nairaland.com/attachments/12754902_541f22648c37485488282bea682c0e27_jpeg_jpegf272ec9b7e8de333789df15c524980aa

In the light of this background, let’s then see what reason the author indicates as to why this word could have appeared without a literal meaning in the Bini dictionary.

See embedded image below as highlighted on the top-right corner in continuation of the bottom-left corner.

www.nairaland.com/attachments/12754903_7e31a3d03b7c407ab60e863fbf8fb4c2_jpeg_jpegfba5de93eebde69a9ef00beabf7a605c

In the light of his foregoing definition of abbreviations, what we have here in the phrase “cf. Yor. ɔba” then becomes extremely clear and straightforward.

In other words, the word “Ọba” [ɔba] (used by the Binis for their monarch) has its ”etymology” [cf.] (aka. ”origin”) in the Yoruba language [Yor.].

Quod Erat Demostrandum!

cc: Afam4eva, macof, gomojam, RedboneSmith, Juliusmalema, shanga, Newton85, scholes0, babtoundey, LegendHero

TAO11:
So far in the course of this thread, the following retar.ded claims have been devastatingly debunked:

(1) The retar.ded claim (by disgruntled Binis) that Yorubas began using the word “Oba” in the post-1930s.

This has been debunked with written evidence of Yoruba usage from 1899, from 1897, from c.1867, from 1845, et al.

(2) The retar.ded claim (by @samuk) that there exists some “600 years” old written evidence of Benin usage of the word “Oba”.

This retar.ded claim is yet to be substantiated (even with an atom of evidence) despite more than 10 days (and still counting) of their torturous search.

Instead, the disgruntled Binis were at best only able to demonstrate (even from their own warped logic) that the Yorubas have an earlier written evidence — 1845 (Yoruba) Vs. 1867 (Bini).

——————————————————
But what does it really mean that I was able to produce an 1845 written evidence and the Binis weren’t able to come even close to that ??

Well, it just simply and objectively means that the Binis weren’t able to come close to the Yorubas, despite their own bogus claim of wRiTteN eViDeNcE.

In other words:
Does the comparative written evidence already provided really imply and mean that the Binis began using this word only in the year 1867 — because that’s all they could provide ??

Although, this line of warped reasoning is what the disgruntled Binis have been trailing funnily; that obviously is a flawed logical fallacy — even though I could have forced their own flawed reasoning down their throats.

————————————————————
Having debunked their deluded claim of 1930s [see (1)]; having exposed @samuk’s fraud of “600 years” old writing [see (2)]; having exposed their inability to produce anything close to (let alone earlier than) the Yorubas’ [see (2)]; having debunked the fallacy of arguing from earlier written usage (despite the fact that it favours me) as a supposed evidence of indigenous ownership; now I will be discussing the actual objective evidence for indigenous ownership — which is, the linguistic evidence.

——————————————————————
The Argument:
(I) If a word is used locally in a particular language, and its literal meaning can not be meaningfully analyzed in that particular language; then such word does not originally belong to that language. Gbam!

(II) The word “Oba” (as used by the Binis for their monarch) does not have any literal meaning in the language of the Binis.

(III) In conclusion, the word “Oba” (as used by the Binis for their monarch) does not belong originally to the Bini language — In other words it is a loanword from another language.

————————————————————
The Evidence:
An objective source of evidence for the meaning of Bini words is undoubtedly the Bini dictionary itself.

[This is not to be confused with an English dictionary which simply features a paltry number of non-English words of popular or global usage — such as: “fufu”, “agbada”, “oba”, et al.]

As such, recourse will now be made to a Bini-English Lexicon. This is so that the English readers here can access the written meanings which are attributed to the Bini words.

One such example of an authoritative material for this purpose is the work entitled: “A Concise Dictionary of The Bini Language of Southern Nigeria” compiled by the professor of African Phonetics and Linguistics, Hans Melzian.

———————————————————
Under the entry “Oba” (for Professor Melzian used “ɔ” for “o”, so as to distinguish between the “o” as in odd from the “o” as in old ); the following are some interesting observations from this Bini dictionary.

(A) Unlike what the author did with other Bini words, he did not give a literal meaning to this word (as I expected); rather he simply describes the person whom the Binis refer to by this word. Interesting, isn’t it?! See embedded image below:

www.nairaland.com/attachments/12754901_bb7fcaad09fc479498aedbb24cb57370_jpeg_jpeg80dbd02cb7ce1db81e998db7e161c38e

(B) But more than the foregoing, the author in fact let the cat out of the bag. He revealed why this word could not have a literal meaning in a Bini language dictionary.

Before I reveal where and how he revealed this, it is important that one is acquainted with a few notations and abbreviations he used in his work, and what he defined them to mean for the purpose of his work.

Two examples of these are relevant to my discourse here, and they are: “Yor.” and “cf.” which he defines to mean: “Yoruba” and “etymological reference” respectively. See embedded image below:

www.nairaland.com/attachments/12754902_541f22648c37485488282bea682c0e27_jpeg_jpegf272ec9b7e8de333789df15c524980aa

In the light of this background, let’s then see what more information the author reveals — which would, as noted above, indicate why this word appears without a literal meaning in the Bini dictionary.

See embedded image below as highlighted on the top-right corner as a continuation to the bottom-left corner.

www.nairaland.com/attachments/12754903_7e31a3d03b7c407ab60e863fbf8fb4c2_jpeg_jpegfba5de93eebde69a9ef00beabf7a605c

In the light of the foregoing notations/abbreviations (which he has defined), what we have here in the phrase “cf. Yor. ɔba” thus become extremely clear and unambiguous.

In other words, the word “Oba” (which is found in the Benin lexicon for the monarch) has its etymology (aka origin) in the language of the Yorubas.

QED.

cc: Afam4eva, macof, gomojam, RedboneSmith, Juliusmalema, shnaga

It is simple yorubas took the word oba from benin, then started using as a collective name for thier kingship to elevate their stool internationally


The word oba got into yoruba lexicon through eastern Yoruba

The conquered takes upon the name of the conqueror

We hear!
www.nairaland.com/attachments/12300045_1180859311783653img20190722154954jpegb78bac5c83a42178910da3de9aa62adbjpegjpeg9cfba2c96c509f82646e09ea44461ee6_jpeg_jpegd2120de126612f0fe3ddadd01b9c1d3b

Y’all: I’m currently preparing another resounding refutation of another Bini lie.

It will be a thread. It will be massive. Stay tuned.

We meeoouuvvvve! [Evil Laughter]!

samuk:


Are you on this thread or you are only here to be spoon feed by Tao11. Go back to page 12, there is a document written in 1863 about an English man that interviewed Oba Adolo, the father of Oba Ovonramwen in 1862. Adolo was misspelt as Atolo. It's on the 6st line on the first page.

No wonder you have been arguing blindly.

I saw no such document. I'm very busy to be going on a goose chase. Post that document with its proper citation in your next response

gregyboy:



Yoruba is a made up shit, they have no history Europeans have been with the yoruba clan like ijebu, itsekiri aworis as early 16c

My point is benin-ife never existed not on the basis that fact wasnt features in European text but also no archaeological fact


I always pity the yorubas when am dealing with European records on them so as not to be biased


Oromiyan oduduwa were all deity never existed i never used European text to come to this conclusion

Going by your dump new found logic

How did yoruba establish ovaremwen dynasty
Tell me is it oromiyan or what, since you claim so

You turned yourself to a joke
I used to reference your historical knowledge but you made TAO11 bring you low


If i talk too much yoruba mods would ban me so i leave it here


Again am gregyboy not edo young have you gone insane

So everyone who believes benin-ife never existed must be gregyboy

Lol insanity is tripping in slowly

I scrapped that part the word oba was used to describe the notable benin monarch in the ancient times, and yorubas picked it up to represent a general word kingship to promote their title

you're a bitter soul from a savage tribe spreading falsehood

[quote author=TAO11 post=96513655]So far in the course of this thread, the following retar.ded claims have been devastatingly debunked:

(1) The retar.ded claim (by disgruntled Binis) that Yorubas began using the word “Oba” in the post-1930s.

This has been debunked with written evidence of Yoruba usage from 1899, from 1897, from c.1867, from 1845, et al.

(2) The retar.ded claim (by @samuk) that there exists some “600 years” old written evidence of Benin usage of the word “Oba”.

This retar.ded claim is yet to be substantiated (even with an atom of evidence) despite more than 10 days (and still counting) of their torturous search.

Instead, these disgruntled Binis were at best only able to demonstrate (from their own warped logic) that the Yorubas have an earlier written evidence — 1845 (Yoruba) Vs. 1867 (Bini).

——————————————————
But what does it really mean that I was able to produce an 1845 written evidence and the Binis weren’t able to come even close to that ??

Well, it just simply means that the Binis weren’t able to come close to the Yorubas, despite their own bogus claim of wRiTteN eViDeNcE. Nothing more, nothing less! [I know I’m being too nice now].

To put the same question in other words:
Does the comparative written evidence already provided really mean that the Binis began using this word only in the year 1867 — because that’s all they could provide ??

Funny enough, this line of warped reasoning is what the disgruntled Binis have been trailing. Should I play their game along with them? No, I’m Yoruba!

To every sound and logically mind, such conclusion (based on available writing) is too obvious as a flawed reasoning and logical fallacy — even though I could have forced their own flawed reasoning down their throats.

Such particular logical fallacy is know in analytical logic specifically by the name: argumentum ex silentio.

————————————————————
Having debunked their deluded claim of 1930s [see (1)]; having exposed @samuk’s fraud of “600 years” old writing [see (2)]; having exposed their inability to produce anything close to (let alone earlier than) the Yorubas’ [see (2)]; having debunked their warped logic of arguing from earlier written usage (despite the fact that it favours me); I now turn, at this point, to discussing the actual objective evidence for determining the indigenous ownership of a word — that is, the linguistic evidence.

——————————————————————
The Argument:
(I) If a word is in use in a particular language, but its literal meaning can not be meaningfully analyzed within that language; then such word does not originally belong to that language. Gbam!

(II) The word “Ọba” (as used by the Binis for their monarch) does not have any literal meaning in the language of the Binis.

(III) In conclusion, the word “Ọba” (as used by the Binis for their monarch) does not belong originally to the Bini language — In other words, it is a loanword.

————————————————————
The Evidence:
An objective source of evidence for the meanings of Bini words is obviously and undoubtedly an authoritative dictionary of the Bini language itself.

[This is not to be confused with a dictionary of the English language which simply features a paltry number of non-English words of widespread global usage — such as: “fufu”, “agbada”, “oba”, et al.]

As such, recourse will now be made to a Bini-English Lexicon. This is so that the English readers here can access the written meanings which are attributed to the actual Bini words.

One such example of an authoritative material for this purpose is the work entitled: “A Concise Dictionary of The Bini Language of Southern Nigeria” compiled by the professor of African Phonetics and Linguistics, Hans Melzian.

———————————————————
Under the entry “Ọba” (for which Professor Melzian used “ɔ” to represent “ọ“, in order to distinguish between /o/ as in odd from /o/ as in old ); the following are some interesting observations from this Bini dictionary.

(A) Unlike what the author did with virtually all other Bini words within the same dictionary, he did not give a literal meaning to this word — as I have expected.

Rather, he simply describes the person whom the Binis refer to by this word. Interesting, isn’t it?! See embedded image below:

www.nairaland.com/attachments/12754901_bb7fcaad09fc479498aedbb24cb57370_jpeg_jpeg80dbd02cb7ce1db81e998db7e161c38e

(B) But more than that, the author (in fact) let the cat out of the bag. He revealed why this word could not have had a literal meaning in a dictionary of Bini language.

Before I reveal his reason, it is important that one is acquainted with a few notations and abbreviations which he define in his work.

Two examples of these are relevant to my discourse here, and they are: “Yor.” and “cf.” which he defines as: “Yoruba” and “etymological reference” respectively.

See embedded image below:

www.nairaland.com/attachments/12754902_541f22648c37485488282bea682c0e27_jpeg_jpegf272ec9b7e8de333789df15c524980aa

In the light of this background, let’s then see what reason the author indicates as to why this word could have appeared without a literal meaning in the Bini dictionary.

See embedded image below as highlighted on the top-right corner in continuation of the bottom-left corner.

www.nairaland.com/attachments/12754903_7e31a3d03b7c407ab60e863fbf8fb4c2_jpeg_jpegfba5de93eebde69a9ef00beabf7a605c

In the light of his foregoing definition of abbreviations, what we have here in the phrase “cf. Yor. ɔba” then becomes extremely clear and straightforward.

In other words, the word “ Ọba” (as used by the Binis for their monarch) has its ”etymology” (aka. ”origin”) in the language of the Yoruba people.

Quod Erat Demostrandum!

cc: Afam4eva, macof, gomojam, RedboneSmith, Juliusmalema, shanga, Newton85, scholes0, babtoundey, LegendHero

This is a well-done job. God bless you, Tao. Only a lunatic, whose condition can never be redeemed, will at this point believe their flawed narrative of Yoruba stole the name Oba from us. You have always proven to be their worst nightmare while making people see through their motive and despiration to rewrite history and claim what is never theirs and what will never be theirs.

I even expected to see something like "shinny seki" "it's red" "it's shinning" as the true meaning of "Oba" (as supplied by these online nutcases) in that dictionary. But the person that compiled it shows he is a sensible and dignified person that cannot stoop low to peddling cheap and ludicrous lies.

macof:

I saw no such document. I'm very busy to be going on a goose chase. Post that document with its proper citation in your next response

Although he didn’t give any reference, it’s actually found in the descriptions furnished by Captain Richard Burton as published in Fraser’s Magazine, Feb., Mar. and April, 1863.

However, 1845 (which is one of the dates from which I provided my evidence) is about two decades earlier than 1863. Yet, his (@samuk ’s) actual claim was NOT even in relation to the 1800s.

Instead, his actual claim (which I continue to hold him accountable for) is with respect to a “600 years” old document. See embedded screenshot below.

www.nairaland.com/attachments/12743879_98d4de5b57fa466aaccb0688afe28097_jpeg_jpegf52cc0a8167448f3985e1f8715ed9f7b

Now This Is Important And He’s Desperate To Veil It:
We had only requested an 1800s writing from him because of his audacity to request same from me (while he had nothing to show). — Nothing more, nothing less!

And even at that his (1863) still comes decades after my (1845).

But, if we’re asking what his own specific claim was, m his claim was in fact about a “600 years” old writing — not about some 157 years old writing.

I know I’d have to wait forever for him to substantiate his claim.

In any case, linguistic argument and evidence has already been adduced to definitively address the question of who in fact originally owns the word “Oba”.

See here: https://www.nairaland.com/6234931/why-ikwerres-not-igbo-logic/15#96513655

[quote author=babtoundey post=96516050][/quote]

I tell you bro....I don't really blame them, we Yoruba's don't value our greatness, we need to start teaching our younger ones our history and making them understand the threat it faces from a certain group of people trying to twist it and spin it to suit their evil goals.... We don't know, but Yoruba culture and history is currently under serious attack. Our schools don't take it seriously anymore, it's serious.

TAO11:
It’s actually from the descriptions furnished by Captain Richard Burton as published in Fraser’s Magazine, Feb., Mar. and April, 1863.

However, 1845 (which is one of the dates from which I provided my evidence) is about two decades earlier than 1863. Yet, his (@samuk ’s) actual claim was NOT even in relation to the 1800s.

Instead, his actual claim (which I continue to hold him accountable for) is with respect to a “600 years” old document. See embedded screenshot below.



We had only requested an 1800s writing from him because of his audacity to request same from me (while he had nothing to show). But even at that his (1863) still comes decades after mine (1845).

So, if we’re asking what his own specific claim was, then his claim was about a “600 years” old writing — not about some 157 years old writing.

I know I’d have to wait forever for him to substantiate his claim.

In any case, linguistic argument and evidence has already been adduced to definitively address the question of who in fact originally owns the word “Oba”. See here:

God will bless you for the work you're doing, these people take pleasure in twisting facts and coming under different monikas to sow discord and falsehood between the Yoruba's and it's Edo cousins.
God bless you.

babtoundey:
This is a well-done job. God bless you, Tao. Only a lunatic, whose condition can never be redeemed, will at this point believe their flawed narrative of Yoruba stole the name Oba from us. You have always proven to be their worst nightmare while making people see through their motive and despiration to rewrite history and claim what is never theirs and what will never be theirs.

I even expected to see something like "shinny seki" "it's red" "it's shinning" as the true meaning of "Oba" (as supplied by these online nutcases) in that dictionary. But the person that compiled it shows he is a sensible and dignified person that cannot stoop low to peddling cheap and ludicrous lies.

Thank you babtoundey. I genuinely appreciate your feedback.

If falsehood had set out [on a journey] for 20 years, truth will catch up with it in just one day.
~ Yoruba proverb.

That is what we’ve been noticing lately on Nairaland. People are already testifying that they can see through their lies nowadays.

NB: You didn’t quote that comment properly, you may modify it and use the “quote” function appropriately so your comment is seen clearly and directly from your moniker.

TheLionofLasigi:


God will bless you for the work you're doing, these people take pleasure in twisting facts and coming under different monikas to sow discord and falsehood between the Yoruba's and it's Edo cousins.
God bless you.

Amen! Thank you very much. Exposing them and their littleness is my pleasure.

The truth has appeared and falsehood has perished — because falsehood is by its very nature meant to eventually perish.
~ Culled from Scripture

gregyboy:


It is simple yorubas took the word oba from benin, then started using as a collective name for thier kingship to elevate their stool internationally


The word oba got into yoruba lexicon through eastern Yoruba

The conquered takes upon the name of the conqueror

The bolded is the simple truth unless they can provide evidence that almighty Benin Kingdom was once ruled by Yoruba.

It was Britain and other European countries that copied from Rome not the other way around because Rome came first.

Just like Benin Kingdom came before Yoruba and ruled over many Yoruba states, it's impossible and unfathomable for Benin to had copy Oba from Yoruba.

This is the reason the Benin/Ife relationship is very important to them because by establishing such false relationships, they can smuggle themselves and lies into Benin history.

Take Benin/Ife relationship out, they are left with nothing.

In my opinion, the debunking of the Benin/Ife relationship is one of the greatest achievements on Nairaland by the Benins. It left the Yorubas hollow and empty historically. They no longer have backdoor to steal Benin history.

Every other thing they write is irrelevant unless they can show us the relationship Benin had with Yoruba that would had made Great Benin take the title of it's king from the conquered and enslaved.

East to West, most traditional institutions are patterned like the Benin traditional institutions with some even copying the exact titles of Benin chiefs.

History books, landmarks and museums across the world are littered with Benin glorious past.

The bight of Benin, Benin river and thousands of Benin artworks across museums in the world will remain permanent reminders to the present and those unborn of the greatness of Benin.

History is not what you concoct on the computer. The Yoruba is already more than 400 years behind Benin in written historical accounts and it shall remain so till eternity, no amount of fabrications can change this.

Benin being arguably the oldest most historically accomplished traditional institution in Nigeria and one of few in Africa, is too accomplished, historically rich to become a part the recently created Yoruba confederacy or conglomerate, such unions are for less endowed tribes that have very little to shout about.

Yoruba claiming Benin is like a dog trying to swallow a lion. A impossible task.

Trying steal Benin as a Yoruba kingdom or empire won't be allowed. Yoruba should stick to their featherweight historical achievements.

Just to scare the Bini liars into shitting their pants already:

I will be copying the above devastating refutation to the next page in case this thread reaches the next page. Just so you all know.

And I’m doing just that for every fresh page you Binis intend to peddle your misinformation on.

It’s about the readers who must be informed of the pure reality, and disabused from Bini lies.

It’s never about the Bini liars themselves. Bini liars (just as every deluded people) are beyond rescue.

www.nairaland.com/attachments/12300045_1180859311783653img20190722154954jpegb78bac5c83a42178910da3de9aa62adbjpegjpeg9cfba2c96c509f82646e09ea44461ee6_jpeg_jpegd2120de126612f0fe3ddadd01b9c1d3b

Y’all will have a lesson to teach your future children — more like: never ever tell lies my child, for there may be a TAO in your generation. There is one in mine

TAO11:
So far in the course of this thread, the following retar.ded claims have been devastatingly debunked:

(1) The retar.ded claim (by disgruntled Binis) that Yorubas began using the word “Oba” in the post-1930s.

This has been debunked with written evidence of Yoruba usage from 1899, from 1897, from c.1867, from 1845, et al.

(2) The retar.ded claim (by @samuk) that there exists some “600 years” old written evidence of Benin usage of the word “Oba”.

This retar.ded claim is yet to be substantiated (even with an atom of evidence) despite more than 10 days (and still counting) of their torturous search.

Instead, these disgruntled Binis were at best only able to demonstrate (from their own warped logic) that the Yorubas have an earlier written evidence — 1845 (Yoruba) Vs. 1867 (Bini).

——————————————————
But what does it really mean that I was able to produce an 1845 written evidence and the Binis weren’t able to come even close to that ??

Well, it just simply means that the Binis weren’t able to come close to the Yorubas, despite their own bogus claim of wRiTteN eViDeNcE. Nothing more, nothing less! [I know I’m being too nice now].

To put the same question in other words:
Does the comparative written evidence already provided really mean that the Binis began using this word only in the year 1867 — because that’s all they could provide ??

Funny enough, this line of warped reasoning is what the disgruntled Binis have been trailing. Should I play their game along with them? No, I’m Yoruba!

To every sound and logically mind, such conclusion (based on available writing) is too obvious as a flawed reasoning and logical fallacy — even though I could have forced their own flawed reasoning down their throats.

Such particular logical fallacy is know in analytical logic specifically by the name: argumentum ex silentio.

————————————————————
Having debunked their deluded claim of 1930s [see (1)]; having exposed @samuk’s fraud of “600 years” old writing [see (2)]; having exposed their inability to produce anything close to (let alone earlier than) the Yorubas’ [see (2)]; having debunked their warped logic of arguing from earlier written usage (despite the fact that it favours me); I now turn, at this point, to discussing the actual objective evidence for determining the indigenous ownership of a word — that is, the linguistic evidence.

——————————————————————
The Argument:
(I) If a word is in use in a particular language, but its literal meaning can not be meaningfully analyzed within that language; then such word does not originally belong to that language. Gbam!

(II) The word “Ọba” (as used by the Binis for their monarch) does not have any literal meaning in the language of the Binis.

(III) In conclusion, the word “Ọba” (as used by the Binis for their monarch) does not belong originally to the Bini language — In other words, it is a loanword.

————————————————————
The Evidence:
An objective source of evidence for the meanings of Bini words is obviously and undoubtedly an authoritative dictionary of the Bini language itself.

[This is not to be confused with a dictionary of the English language which simply features a paltry number of non-English words of widespread, global, popular usage — such as: “fufu”, “agbada”, “oba”, et al.]

As such, recourse will now be made to a Bini-English Lexicon. This is so that the English readers here can access the written meanings which are attributed to the actual Bini words.

One such example of an authoritative material for this purpose is the work entitled: “A Concise Dictionary of The Bini Language of Southern Nigeria” compiled by the professor of African Phonetics and Linguistics, Hans Melzian.

———————————————————
Under the entry “Ọba” (for which Professor Melzian used “ɔ” to represent “ọ“, in order to distinguish /o/ as in odd from /o/ as in old ); the following are some interesting observations from this Bini dictionary.

(A) Unlike what the author did with virtually all other Bini words within the same dictionary, he did not give a literal meaning to this word — as I have expected.

Rather, he simply describes the person whom the Binis refer to by this word. Interesting, isn’t it?! See embedded image below:

www.nairaland.com/attachments/12754901_bb7fcaad09fc479498aedbb24cb57370_jpeg_jpeg80dbd02cb7ce1db81e998db7e161c38e

(B) But more than that, the author (in fact) let the cat out of the bag. He revealed why this word could not have had a literal meaning in a dictionary of Bini language.

Before I reveal his reason, it is important that one is acquainted with a few notations and abbreviations which he define in his work.

Two examples of these are relevant to my discourse here, and they are: “Yor.” and “cf.” which he defines as: “Yoruba” and “etymological reference” respectively.

See embedded image below:

www.nairaland.com/attachments/12754902_541f22648c37485488282bea682c0e27_jpeg_jpegf272ec9b7e8de333789df15c524980aa

In the light of this background, let’s then see what reason the author indicates as to why this word could have appeared without a literal meaning in the Bini dictionary.

See embedded image below as highlighted on the top-right corner in continuation of the bottom-left corner.

www.nairaland.com/attachments/12754903_7e31a3d03b7c407ab60e863fbf8fb4c2_jpeg_jpegfba5de93eebde69a9ef00beabf7a605c

In the light of his foregoing definition of abbreviations, what we have here in the phrase “cf. Yor. ɔba” then becomes extremely clear and straightforward.

In other words, the word “Ọba” [ɔba] (used by the Binis for their monarch) has its ”etymology” [cf.] (aka. ”origin”) in the Yoruba language [Yor.].

Quod Erat Demostrandum!

cc: Afam4eva, macof, gomojam, RedboneSmith, Juliusmalema, shanga, Newton85, scholes0, babtoundey, LegendHero

This is a well-done job. God bless you, Tao. Only a lunatic,
whose condition can never be redeemed, will at this point
believe their flawed narrative of Yoruba stole the name Oba
from us. You have always proven to be their worst nightmare
while making people see through their motive and despiration
to rewrite history and claim what is never theirs and what will
never be theirs.
I even expected to see something like "shinny seki" "it's red"
"it's shinning" as the true meaning of "Oba" (as supplied by
these online nutcases) in that dictionary. But the person that
compiled it shows he is a sensible and dignified person that
cannot stoop low to peddling cheap and ludicrous lies.

babtoundey:



This is a well-done job. God bless you, Tao. Only a lunatic,
whose condition can never be redeemed, will at this point
believe their flawed narrative of Yoruba stole the name Oba
from us. You have always proven to be their worst nightmare
while making people see through their motive and despiration
to rewrite history and claim what is never theirs and what will
never be theirs.
I even expected to see something like "shinny seki" "it's red"
"it's shinning" as the true meaning of "Oba" (as supplied by
these online nutcases) in that dictionary. But the person that
compiled it shows he is a sensible and dignified person that
cannot stoop low to peddling cheap and ludicrous lies.

Unfortunately history is not what you concoct or fabricate on the computer. Especially those that took centuries to crystallize.

The Yoruba is already more than 400 years behind Benin in eyewitness written historical accounts and it shall remain so till eternity, no amount of fabrications can change this. How are you going to change all European archives on Benin history since the 1400s?

gregyboy:


It is simple yorubas took the word oba from benin, then started using as a collective name for thier kingship to elevate their stool internationally


The word oba got into yoruba lexicon through eastern Yoruba

The conquered takes upon the name of the conqueror

Then prove it. Yorubas have given you a hundred and one meanings of Oba (all pointing to the same meaning), they have given you ancient names, that have "Oba" attached and names of traditional rulers, titles and positions that are prefixed with "Oba", they have given you names of traditional positions that derive their meaning and essence from the word "Oba" they have provided standing proofs that Benin stole the name from them. You could tell us what "Oba" means in your language let alone substantiating your odious claim "oba" is truly yours.
Must we be forced to ignore sense and reasoning and embrace your "it is what it is" stance because you are Gregboy, the mouthpiece of the entire Benin empire and the confused originator of "shinny seki" and it's red". We know you're confused. Just make us believe you're not confuse as you truly are. prove Tao wrong at least for once.
obaluaye
obalufon
obatala
obataasa
obalogun All these names and titles are as old as Yoruba itself. Your lies are not marketable. repackage them.

babtoundey:

Then prove it. Yorubas have given you a hundred and one meanings of Oba (all pointing to the same meaning), they have given you ancient names, that have "Oba" attached traditional rulers, titles and positions that are prefixed with "Oba", that have given you names of traditional position that derive their meaning and essence from the word "Oba" they have provided standing proofs that Benin stole the name from them. You could tell us what "Oba" means in your language let alone substantiating your odious claim "oba" is truly yours.
Must we be forced to ignore sense and reasoning and embrace your "it is what it is" stance because you are Gregboy, the mouthpiece of the entire Benin empire and the confused originator of "shinny seki" and it's red". We know you're confused. Just make us believe you're not confuse as you truly are. prove Tao wrong at least for once.

The prove is Benin once ruled and controlled eastern Yoruba, this is where Benin monarchical traditions filtered into what later became the wider Yoruba tribe just has Benin monarchical traditions filtered eastward through Anioma/western Ibo to Onitsha and other places in the south south.

It is only reasonable for the conquered to take upon the name of the conqueror.

samuk:


The prove is Benin once ruled and controlled eastern Yoruba, this is where Benin monarchical traditions filtered into what later became the wider Yoruba tribe.

When Benin itself (it gods, religion, politics, name, arts and revered stool of authority) is a property of the mighty Yoruba race. the igogomigodo people or whatever it is they are called watched as oranmiyan colonised them inside out. That is the fact no million lies from online savages could refute.

Another lie from samuk the liar about to be dismantled:

samuk:
The prove is Benin once ruled and controlled eastern Yoruba, this is where Benin monarchical traditions filtered into what later became the wider Yoruba tribe just has Benin monarchical traditions filtered eastward through Anioma/western Ibo to Onitsha and other places in the south south.

(Q) Did some Eastern-Yoruba kingdoms engage in warfare with Benin kingdom at some point in the course of history?

(A) Yes!
.
.
(Q) But did Benin kingdom rule and control some Eastern Yoruba kingdoms?

(A) Absolute falsehood!

The traditions which make this false claim ALL emanate originally from Benin kingdom.

And these accounts are not corroborated by the traditions which emanate from these Eastern Yoruba kingdoms.

I’ll be waiting for the traditions emanating from any Eastern Yoruba kingdom which says anywhere that Benin once ruled/controlled it.

cc: babtoundey, Afam4eva, LegendHero, gomojam, scholes0

It is only reasonable for the conquered to take upon the name of the conqueror.

Just as the Urhobos, Itsekiri*, Isoko, et al. now use “Oba”, right ?? Benin warped reasoning galore!

———————-
*Yes, I know that technically speaking the Itsekiri were not conquered. But the point I’m making in general already refuted your warped reasoning as always

babtoundey:


When Benin itself (it gods, religion, politics, name, arts and revered stool of authority) is a property of the mighty Yoruba race. the igogomigodo people or whatever it is they are called watched as oranmiyan colonised them inside out. That is the fact no million lies from online savages could refute.

Have you not been reading the thread, Benin/Ife relationship, Oranmiyan coming to Benin can't be backed up with written eyewitness historical accounts. They are fairytales. The myths of history. The fact that most cultures have myths doesn't make them true, just like father Christmas is not true.

European first 400 years of documenting Benin history have nothing written in any of their archives about Benin/Ife relationship, that is why you can't find anything older than the 1800s about Benin relationship with Oranmiyan, Ife and Oduduwa. Ask TAO11 if you don't believe me.

Early Yoruba history claims that Oduduwa came from Saudi Arabia whilst the Benin claim he was the son of last Ogiso. These claims have no eye witness written historical accounts to back them up

samuk:
Have you not been reading the thread, Benin/Ife relationship, Oranmiyan coming to Benin can't be backed up with written historical accounts. They are fairytales. The myths of history. The fact that most cultures have myths doesn't make them true just like father Christmas is not true.

Interesting!

So, you mean that all your ancestral Benin daddies (including Eweka I, Ewuare I, and several others) are all mythical and fictional cartoon characters. Wonderful!

In the European first 400 years of documenting Benin history, there was nothing written in any of their archives about Benin/Ife relationship, that is why you can't find anything older than the 1800s about Benin relationship with Oranmiyan, Ife and Oduduwa. Ask TAO11 if you don't believe me.

Just as they didn’t write anything about your ancestral superheroes such as Ewuare I, et al. Amazing!

Hence your greatest daddies are all fictional animes. LMAO!

Who spoilt Benin people’s lives like this. Inferiority complex gripped them really hard. I suspect Awolowo. Hahaha!

It is only reasonable for the conquered to take upon the name of the conqueror.

Exactly as Oranmiyan conquered your daddies and you took the name “Benin” till date.

The conquered truly takes the name of their boss.

Or may be as Aje (from Ibadan) was slave-raiding your daddies back in the days before the Nupe later came to addd salt to the injury.

cc: @babtoundey. The Ife-Benin Connection of which they live in denial is upon them.

It has been established incontrovertibly beyond what any sorrowful rant can salvage.

There is no escape from it. Suicide is loading in Benin today. I can see it clearly.

See link to the Ife-Benin Connection archaeological evidence dating to the 1600s.

Early Yoruba history claims that Oduduwa came from Saudi Arabia whilst the Benin claim he was the son of last Ogiso. These claims have no eye witness written historical accounts to back them up

Interesting!

Just as I’ve been asking you all where your ancestors and and their Kings’ progenitors are from?

Is it:

(A) Ife according to the “official” Benin account.
(B) The Sky according to the Benin mythology.
(C) Europe according to the 1823 Benin account.
(D) Egypt according to Egharevba’s 1953 edition.
(E) All of the above.

Feel free to use any of the following lifelines: (1) Ask the audience, (2) Phone a friend, or (3) 50-50.

TAO11:
Interesting! You mean that all these your Benin daddies (Eweka I, Ewuare I, et all) are all mythical and fictional cartoon characters.

Or

Just as they didn’t write anything about Eweka, Ewuare, et al.

Hence your greatest daddies are all fictional animes.

Who spoilt Benin people’s lives like this. Inferiority complex gripped them hard. I suspect Awolowo.


Exactly as Oranmiyan conquered you all and you took the name Benin till date.

The conquered truly takes the name of their boss.

Or may be as Aje (from Ibadan) was slave-raiding your daddies back in the days before the Nile came to addd salt upon injury.

cc: @babtoundey. The Ife-Benin Connection of which they live in denial is upon them.

There is no escape from it. Suicide is loading in. Skin today.

See link:

Applying your logic strictly will not discount the fact that when the Europeans first visited Benin in 1400s, they met a flourishing kingdom with a king(whatever his name and title was) and a sophisticated system of administration.

All other subsequent visits to Benin by the Europeans in the 1500s, 1600s, 1700s and 1800s recorded the kingdom as having kings.

Your logic doesn't diminish or take away the fact that Benin attained and achieved greatness. The Oba is only a part of this greatness.

Now tell us what Yoruba achieved in the same period.

Is it not ironic that the country (Benin) that Yoruba claims to have influence is bearing the name of Benin taken from an international body of water, the bight of Benin which was named after Benin empire for her greatness.

Where is the international historical landmarks to celebrate Yoruba history.

samuk:
Applying your logic strictly will not discount the fact that when the Europeans first visited Benin in 1400s, they met a flourishing kingdom with a king (whatever his name and title was) and a sophisticated system of administration.

All other subsequent visits to Benin by the Europeans in the 1500s, 1600s, 1700s and 1800s recorded the kingdom as having kings.

Your logic doesn't diminish or take away the fact that Benin attained and achieved greatness. The Oba is only a part of this greatness.

So now “whatever his name and title was” appears to you to be a great answer.

Okay then, the Europeans also note Benin’s relationship with others, whatever their name was also doesn’t matter.

Sounds good to you? Satisfies you? Looks like the same standard? Or your delusions isn’t yet clear?

cc: babtoundey

———————
Just so you know I will copy and paste the above refutation to the next page when a new page comes up.

Now tell us what Yoruba achieved in the same period.

One of the largest empires in the West Africa forest region. Read the exploits of Oyo in the History of Dahomey by an eYeWitnEss French Slave trader in the 1700s. — The problem with you Binis is ignorance. You all know so little.

Is it not ironic that the country (Benin) that Yoruba claims to have influence is bearing the name of Benin taken from an international body of water, the bight of Benin which was named after Benin empire for her greatness.

I’m glad you were honest enough to say they named their country after a body of water. They could care less whoever named it — and after whom it was named. They chose that water because of its neutrality, thus debunking any inferiority in the plastic minds of any insecure Bini.

A few years ago before my refutations, the gibberish from Binis was always that the Dahomeys came to take permission from our Oba. LMAO!

Where is the historical international landmarks to celebrate Yoruba history.

Yoruba language is the second indigenous language in Benin Republic till date as I type.

TAO11:
So now “whatever his name and title was” appears to you to be a great answer.

Okay then, the Europeans also note Benin’s relationship with others, whatever their name was also doesn’t matter.

Sounds good to you? Satisfies you? Looks like the same standard? Or your delusions isn’t yet clear?

cc: babtoundey

———————
Just so you know I will copy and paste the above refutation to the next page when a new page comes up.

You can't hind behind two fingers to diminish great Benin, nothing was refuted, I only applied your logic without conceding and still arrived at an accomplished Benin without rival and unequal in historical achievements by the Yoruba.

This fight is beyond you, the Benin are already 400 years ahead of Yoruba in eyewitness written historical accounts. No one will accuse you of not trying your best, how does anyone expect you to surmount 400 years of historical achievements.

Your Benin/Ife connection and Oro Oba Ado is gone in flames.

You tried to link Ife to Organe, it was destroyed by the Benin with facts.

You tried your luck on linking Ife to Yufi in Zimbabwe, south Africa, that was also rubbished with facts.

You have tried, Coptic and Arabic interpretations just to close the Benin 400 years gap, still no luck.

Keep trying, we are here.

samuk:
You can't hind behind two fingers to diminish great Benin, nothing was refuted, I only applied your logic without conceding and still arrived at an accomplished Benin without rival and unequal in historical achievements by the Yoruba.

This fight is beyond you, the Benin are already 400 years ahead of Yoruba in eyewitness written historical accounts. No one will accuse you of not trying your best, how does anyone expect you to surmount 400 years of historical achievements.

Your Benin/Ife connection and Oro Oba Ado is gone in flames.

You tried to link Ife to Organe, it was destroyed by the Benin with facts.

You tried your luck on linking Ife to Yufi in Zimbabwe, south Africa, that was also rubbished with facts.

You have tried, Coptic and Arabic interpretations just to close the Benin 400 years gap, still no luck.

Keep trying, we are here.

Actual reply has moved due to spambot issues. The link to the new location will be updated here in due course:

Modified:

https://www.nairaland.com/6234931/why-ikwerres-not-igbo-logic/16#96521975