₦airaland Forum

Kukutente23:
No. Elohim is plural of god and it is used to refer to Moses not as a sign of royalty or respect but as a distinction between Moses and the gods of Egypt. The statement there is that "I have made you like a god unto Pharaoh..". Since Pharaoh had his own gods represented by his magician, Elohim is adopted to make a distinction between the God of Israel whom Moses represents and the gods of Egypt. I have explained this to you before. Elohim is an Hebrew word and is not borrowed.

Why should I care for the reason a plural word was used for a singular Moses?

The fact is that it was used because the language allows that and for obvious reason the word is not translated into English as Gods.

Kukutente23:
Your attempt at normalizing the use of We in Arabic falls flat because Arabic existed as a language before Muhammad and there is no record of usage of such We to describe any royalty or majesty. Even in the quran and hadiths, there is no explanation for the use of "We" in referring to Allah. The explanation you're giving is simply an hypothesis put forward by scholars and there are other scholars with differing ideas about it like I showed you before.

So do you have records of it not been used pre-Islam? Or u have records of Muslims during the life time of the prophet been confused about its usage?

Why would there be explanation in Qur'an or Hadith when they knew what it meant and there are no scholar that believe or believed otherwise concerning it's usage, I am not sure u even read the copy and paste evidence you brought yesterday.

Kukutente23:
One of the problems you face is that Muhammad summarily destroyed any historical article of his Arab tribes once he obtained power in the peninsula. So accounts of the pre-Islamic Arabia is obscure. That is why you are as confused as you are today.

Hogwash.

Kukutente23:
In fact, if not for the presence of Jews, a lot of you never knew that Muhammad came in contact with a lot of Jews and Christians and was aware of their religious beliefs beofre he declared himself a prophet, copying straight from their religions

Another loads of hogwash.

Kukutente23:
You did not get my point. If Mary appeared with a child while unmarried, she is automatically an adulteress. Adultery is punishable by stoning to death in Mosaic laws. Muhammad made allowance for this by claiming in the quran that the baby spoke up for his mother by declaring himself a servant of "Allah" sent to carry out a message. In Muhammad's account, this scenario, prevented the stoning of Mary. But I am disputing that by telling you that the working of miracles does not stop Jews from carrying out the requirement of Moses' laws. I gave you an example of Jesus himself. The Jews killed him despite the many miracles he showed them. So it is totally unbelievable that they would have spared Mary and accepted her back into society just cause the fruit of her adultery spoke up. That idea does not correlate with the knowledge we have of Pharisees and Jews. They believed in the strict interpretation and implementation of Moses' laws and nothing ever stands in their way of implementing it, not even Jesus.

The miraculous birth of Mary is irrelevant. Her mother did not birth her out of wedlock. Mary and Elizabeth being relative does not automatically make Mary a Levite. Her father Joachim was reputed to be a rich man and Levites are not rich since they do not own properties.

No one is disputing the reuse of names in Jewish culture. What I am disputing is calling descendants brothers or sisters of their ancestors as is being claimed in the quran. There is no historical evidence to that ever happening.

So was every case of adultery in the Bible punished by stoning?
At least It is in your Bible that David committed adultery and murder and I can't recall him been stoned.
There is another forged story about Jesus preventing the stoning of an adulteress.

The fact that Jesus spoke in cradle was the reason Mary was believed to not have committed adultery. If you find it unbelievable so be it.

What proof do you have that Mary's father's name was Joachim and not Imran? Because I believe that only appear in Gospel of James that you guys consider apocryphal and you also believe that was the source of the story of Mary and Jesus in the Qur'an.
Are u suggesting that while Prophet Muhammad was copying the gospel of James he did not notice that the name of Mary's father is Joachim and not Imran?

Kukutente23:
It is not a problem if you seek to contend that Royal We has existed before it was codified by the English from Latin writings in the 12th century. All you have to do is to place it in history as to who used it before then and where. But it is obvious from all indications that the We in the Quran cannot be a royal We because there was no such thing as royalty in Mecca and the Southern Arabic Peninsula in the time of Muhammad. So how can they employ something that never existed in their culture? There are so many borrowed words and concept in different languages. Yorubas have no word for rice. They call it "iresi" which is an adaptation of the original English word. So if royalty was strange to the Arabs, how could they have used a royal We?
Also, for your claim on classical Arabic, it was codified from the Hajiz texts and mostly used by the Bedouin tribes which implies that it had various forms and dialects. This is important to note because the Quran was originally written in different dialects, and the royal We was obviously used in all the different reductions. What this implies as well is that the language used today in the quran is totally different from the original dialects used for its writing. The question then still remains out of which of the dialects the royal We sprang from since Muhammad's tribe had no royalty. So your story about classical Arabic adds nothing to this discourse. It does not explain where the tradition of royal We appears from in Arabic language and where it has been used before and after the Quran in those times.

Are u guys kindergarten pupils? For how long are we going to keep explaining to you guys? that kinda plural is a rhetoric in Arabic. Because u find it absurd in your language does not take away the fact that some languages used that.

I already gave you example of how Elohim a plural word was used for Moses, Hebrew language accommodate that, hence it was used that way.

Why exactly do you have a problem with its usage?

IslamVIRGINS:
Sorry about this, its really touches

The guy is a lunatic. I'm suprise you are associating with a lunatic.

Just take a look at his comments, he has been doing the copy and paste for years.

Or you both share the same ward?

AntiisIam:
Dem no born you well to answer, even sultan the number one slave in Nigeria can't answer the question, so who are you to answer

Royal WE that was first introduced in 12th century is what you're attaching allah and quran with, aswear opolo gbogbo yin ti d'ota ninu isilamu

Your dumbness is second to non. Just keep basking in your dumbness!

AntiisIam:
I asked AntiChristian and Qasim6 if quran and allah came into existence after 12th century to have make used of Royal WE

Those boys don't think before commenting, Muhammad has ruin their lives.

You did not grasp anything from all the discussion on this thread?

Why did God used Elohim for Moses in exodus 7:1?

AntiisIam:
Is allah divine to start with?

Secondly, who is that king in Pre-islam time that used royal We?

No be me go answer dumb question.

Ohyoudidnt:
Can you provide the text of this Fatwa 12713 you refer to please?

Lol.. Don't mind him.

He is AnsweringIslam merchant.

Dsimmer:
You who champion a useless camel urine drinking Arab lunatic Mohammad is the crazy one.

Like I stated, if your dumb self want to champion a dumb camel urine drinking lunatic Pedophile, then focus on the lunatic lineage which are Ishmael's descendants.

Sorry

Take good care of yourself.

Dsimmer:
Once you understand that God (Eledumare who's also known as Ayeraye) is an invisible spirit whose begotten child represent his visible manifestation, your confusion will be cured.

As a matter of fact, If anyone thinks he wants to champion the stupidity of the dumb camel urine drinking Pedophile Arab terrorist criminal Mohammad, then he should rather focus on the exploits of Ishmael's descendants who are Mohammad's ancestors. Stop using Jewish history (Jacob and Jacob's descendants) which had nothing to do with Arab Mohammad who's Ishmael's descendant. In fact, camel urine drinking Pedophile criminal Mohammad had nothing to write about the exploits of his Arab ancestors (Ishmael's descendants) thus the reason why Mohammad had to plagiarize the already written Jewish history (Jacob and Jacob's descendants) which had nothing to do with Mohammad, considering Mohammad is Ishmael's descendant.

Guy u sure say u never dey craze like this?

You should probably tell people around you to take u to a hospital..

It is not looking good for you.

Kukutente23:
So you don't know she was married to Joseph the carpenter in the bible?

Do you know how ridiculous it sounds that a woman openly committed adultery according to the Quran in the Jewish community and she was not stoned to death? How's that possible?

Why do you think he spoke in the cradle according to Qur'an narrative?

And that is exactly the same reason Mary was called sister of Aaron. They were trying to shame her because she was from the lineage of Aaron.

Kukutente23:
Was the quranic passage referring to when she became pregnant or when she gave birth? The quranic passage is telling us that she gave birth as an unmarried woman. I'm surprised you're mixing your quran up like this!!

Note that verse 22 of that chapter says she left town to a remote place after she became pregnant obviously to hide the pregnancy from her people

So did the Bible say anything about her getting married?

I know she was just betrothed when she became pregnant according to the Bible.

Kukutente23:
Check Sheikh Hamza Karamali and Ibn Taymiyyah

I don't know where you get the idea that they believed otherwise concerning the WE in the Qur'an

Kukutente23:
I don't get. Are you saying Mary mother of Jesus was married in Islam? To who? Read Quran 19:27-29

I'm sure you will agree it is only horrible when a woman who gave birth is unmarried

So was mary married when she became pregnant in the biblical narrative? Because I'm not really getting your point.

Kukutente23:
Ah!! Taqiyya!! is this not you defending the royal We explanation on the first page? What have we been debating since morning? Chai!! Islamists and taqiyya

Lol, guy just rest on this WE, the Yoruba example I brought. Is it royal plural? I was only pointing out how languages can differ and if you are not getting my point, I can't help you further.

Kukutente23:
Some scholars have argued that the We was used by Allah to refer to himself and Jibreel and is used interchangeably because Jibreel is his chief messenger. Have you not come across such?

well, I haven't come across that before, can u help with any scholar of that opinion. Or are you just making stuff up now?

Kukutente23:
Where did I lie?

This is where you lied

"Your friend qassim6 is already pointing to the reason why Muhammad used plural to refer to Allah. It is because the Israelite God whom he copied was usually referred to in plural form by the Jews."

The approach I used was to show how languages can differ

Kukutente23:
It is clearly in your quran. He called Mary mother of Jesus sister of Aaron and claimed she was unmarried!!

Can you quote the verse that claim Mary was unmarried?

Kukutente23:
But using plural to refer to a single entity is strange in Arabic ain't it. That is why there is no mainstream explanation with some scholars offering different explanations up and down

The We in quran was borrowed by Muhammad. That is pretty much clear and antiislam has not yet said it connotes the plurality of God. He is just busy exposing the ignorance of you folks who claim to follow Islam. I like that you have tactically shifted from royal we to divine majesty

Taqiyya master, can you point out where I used royal we on this thread?

And which scholars give different explanation for the WE in the Qur'an?

Kukutente23:
The Torah is as relevant in Israel as the Quran is in Saudi. As a matter of fact, the Bible is relevant to more people on the face of the earth than the Quran. But that does not mean the Quran or the Bible is brighter grammar as you sought to imply. That is taqiyya.

Your friend qassim6 is already pointing to the reason why Muhammad used plural to refer to Allah. It is because the Israelite God whom he copied was usually referred to in plural form by the Jews. The reason why, he does not know. He does not even realise that Allah which is his tribal god is gotten from the singular form of Elohim. Muhammad was ignorant on a lot of things. It is one of such that led him to mistake Mary mother of Jesus with Miriam sister of Moses!!

Dem use lie swear for Una? And you are the one shouting taqiyya every where on this thread.

And I don't understand why you guys think the prophet mistook Mary mother of Jesus with Miriam

Kukutente23:
If you choose to call it plural of superiority no problem. It can't be used in any other language because it simply does not exist as such. But in Yoruba for example. We have Oluwa (Lord) and then Olorun(Creator of Heaven or God) and then Oluwa Olorun(Lord God) which is used as an embellishment in the Bible for Elohim you complained about as a direct translation from the KJV.

So you see that it is not necessarily about the plurality but the superiority or distinction from other gods(oloruns)

Languages differ and languages use different rhetoric that some other might find absurd. That is what we need to learn and not all the nonsense Antiislam is doing looking for partners that does not exist and will never exist for Allah.

The WE in the Qur'an is a rhetoric device that connotes divine majesty and not plurality of God.

Kukutente23:
Read the passage yourself to understand why. God was saying Moses will be superior to the gods of Egypt. Again, you see that it is comparison with other gods that brought about the usage of plurality to mark a distinction and that's same thing Moses employed throughout his reference to God in relation to gods of other tribes. What makes it more obvious is that it is Eloha that leads to Allah which means Allah is not plural in name. So how come We is being used by him in Quran? If He wanted to use the plural form. the root word should have come from Elohim and not Eloha

So Elohim a plural word was used for a singular being (Moses). What kind of plural are we going to call that?

Plural of superiority?

And can that type of rhetoric be used in every languages?

Kukutente23:
It is not similar. Kings in Europe who normalised the use of royal We believed they were an embodiment of the state and thus symbol of sovereignity. That is why Louis XIV famously said "L'etat moi" meaning "I am the state". It is different from Yoruba who use it to refer to respect based on age.
Majestic plural does not exist AT ALL in Arabic or Semitic languages. It is easy to see in that in the Bible for example, Over twenty Kings were recorded and none ever used "We" to refer to himself. Same with Egyptian Kings which is one of the oldest civilisation. No record of royal We in usage there. As Antiislam pointed out, the royal We is mostly used in Europe.
Elohim is plural for God. Eloha is the singular. The usage in the Bible is to differentiate God from other gods especially canaanite gods which are also referred to as Eloha. it is from Eloha that Ilah came out and then Allah. Elohim was just a truncated way of saying Lord of gods or Lord God. So you missed it totally.

Till now, none of you can give an example of royal We usage in pre-Islamic Arabia so you need to give another explanation for Allah's use of We to refer to himself that is based on fact and fidelity. This one no fly

Next!!

So why was Elohim used for Moses in Exodus 7:1?

Kukutente23:
Royal We is different from the Yoruba use of They or plural You for Elders as a symbol of respect. You are simply ignorant. An Elder in Yoruba cannot use the yoruba We to refer to himself in the first person. Royal We implies referring to oneself in the first person plural. The Yoruba use of plural for adults occurs in the 2nd person or third person plural pronouns not the first plural

I am not saying it is the same as Yoruba plural of respect. I said something similar, I was only pointing out how languages can differ.

Majestic plural is not something just peculiar with Arabic, but something in Semitic languages. Why do you think the word Elohim is not translated as Gods?

AntiisIam:
Royal WE was introduced in 12th century I believed you could see that from the link you dropped?

Are you saying quran or allah came into existence after 12th century to have make used of Royal WE?

Why are you slow like this?
But u be Omo Yoruba now

Yoruba language have something similar, we use plural of respect for elders and people that are older than us. Was that introduced in the 12th century?

Just because it was introduced into English or whatever language in the 12th century does that mean that was the first time it's used in human history?

AntiisIam:
Welcome my run away customer, here is the question you and your fellow slaves are avoiding to answer


Quran 10:94

And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was)....


If Islam is strictly monotheist, who are the WE there?

You are free to insult your dad but mind you, I won't insult you yet so that you won't use that as an escaping route

Just keep regurgitating the same old gabbage, are u that dumb?

U r still asking about the WE in the Qur'an in 2024?

DeepSight:
Plural of royalty or majestic plural.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_we

The guy is a top notch fool. He has been asking the question for ages and he will keep asking the same question till he dies.

AntiisIam:
Here are the daughters of allah, his fellow idols that made up of WE, US, OUR you saw in quran


Your allah wish to have a son

Quran 39:4
If Allah had willed to choose a son, He could have chosen what He would of that which He hath created...

Your islamic deity allah has daughters

Quran 37:153 Muhammad Asad
“He has chosen daughters in preference to sons”

Quran 37:153 Wahiduddin Khan
Has He chosen daughters over sons


AND THE DAUGTHERS ARE:

Quran 53:19-21
Have you then considered Lat and ‘Uzza And another, the third, Manat Are the males for you and for Him the females

I always knew you are very slow but I don't know you are as slow as this.

Is this the brain you are using for your every day activities? or you are only pretending to be dumb?

TenQ:
First, do you admit that
1. The Arabic word "فُرُوجَهُمْ" and term "فَحْجَة" refers to the genitals or private parts of the man and woman respectively ?

Specifically for the woman it is Vulva or Vagina

2. The correct translation of Qur'an 21:91 is
Quran 21:91
And the one who guarded her vulva, so We breathed into it making her and her son a sign for all peoples.

The subject is the VULVA.

She guarded her vulva, so Allah breathe into the Vulva of his spirit.

Stop telling obvious lies.

Same with Quran 66:12

Tell me, what exactly did Mary guard?

I don't even know what fahja "فَحْجَة"mean

You can not translate farjaha as her vulva/vigina because furujahum is exact same word only in plural form. Except if you are going to translate Q33:35 as "men who guard their vulvas/viginas". The best way to translate "فُرُوجَهُمْ/فَرْجَهَا" should be "her private part/their private parts"

And stop being mischievous, you can not choose "it" for "فِيهَا" and "her" for "وَجَعَلْنَـٰهَا and وَٱبْنَهَآ" you are only exposing yourself as the disingenuous person that you are.

TenQ:
Are you tongue tied?

The same demon is in both you and your prophet when they asked him about the spirit. We are still waiting for his answer till date.


I just gave you a challenge, break YOUR two words وَجَعَلْنَـٰهَا and وَٱبْنَهَآ down so that I can humiliate your further

With the breakdown u did, you and your amateur tutor should have realized the mistake you are making if both of you are honest to each other.

The subject of the sentence is "And she who" "وَٱلَّتِىٓ" it only make sense that "فِيهَا" "وَجَعَلْنَـٰهَا" and "وَٱبْنَهَآ" be translated to "and we made her", "into her", "and her son" respectively but you decided to be mischievous and you allow demon to keep fingering your brain.

Guy try have some shame and save yourself of further embarrassment.

you are deaf, dumb, and blind, so you will never return ˹to the Right Path˺

TenQ:
I console you this early morning for your pain in this.

I just gave you a challenge, break YOUR two words وَجَعَلْنَـٰهَا and وَٱبْنَهَآ down so that I can humiliate your further

Must you insist on Falsehood and Lies to keep Islam alive?

I am going to be lenient with you and save you some embarrassment and allow you crawl back into your hole on this one.

Probably this will be the last we will be seeing this your "Jibril blew into Mary Vigina" because I was told you have been asking the question for ages and you probably will keep asking it till you die.

TenQ:
I am on Nairaland to help you open your eyes to the 419 document of Islam through Mohammed (aka Allah) that has been sold to you.


Why do you think your scholars lie so much to preserve Islam?

It is the spirit of deception that Deceives you from the Messiah to hell and it's prison that prevents you from coming out of it.
Thus
1. The thing is that Islam is first a spiritual deception
2. Then it is a spiritual prison


But would you stop to think? Most likely not!
Thus I can only pray for you for mercy!

We both know the religion that was built on lies, forgeries and deception.

Like unknown Matthew and Luke forging the document of an unknown Mark and another unknown John just making up words in his head and putting them in Jesus mouth. Not to talk of the countless numbers of interpolation.

You are the one in a spiritual prison.

TenQ:
Khai!

I have beaten you blue back with evidence in Arabic (thanks to my teachers). I broke it to you like teaching a toddler the language of Arabic.

Even though you have no answer to the Truth, you must say something to help the cause of Allah and Islam taking you to Hell fire.

I challenge you to prove my breakdown of the two words وَجَعَلْنَـٰهَا and وَٱبْنَهَآ YOU presented as wrong!

You yourself should take your breakdown of those two words and put it back in the statement and see if you arrive at your earlier translation, because you just break down "وَجَعَلْنَـٰهَا" as "and we made it".

Go get a refund from your amateur tutor and you should probably get him/her arrested for embarrassing you!

TenQ:
Your Arabic should be superior to what you are doing now.

The Arabic word "وَجَعَلْنَـٰهَا" is "wa ja'alnāhā." which means "And We made it."

It is three words where
"wa" means "and."
"ja'alnā" means "We made."
"hā" means "it."




The word "وَٱبْنَهَآ" is "wa ibnahā." meaning "And her son."

"wa" means[b] "and."[/b]
"ibn" means "son" or "child."
"hā" means "her" ( or "it" but the subject is son or child such tha "it" is not used for humans)

For Mary, the subject was non-human (even if we put all your preferred words of sleeve or chastity or vulva or Farjiha or private part), such that "ha" is "IT"




How much will you pay me for learning all these Arabic from my Arabic teacher?

Why not just concede you made an awful gaffe and stop all this nonsense cover-up you are doing?

Awon dishonest bunch that just want to win argument at all cost.