₦airaland Forum

Ojuntana:
It is left for you to explain how that particular verse in Gen17vs20 relates to Islam. The preceding verse has God clearly rejecting Ishmael as the son of promise. Or did you not read God's reply to Abraham's prayer? Even in the preceding chapter, the Angel of God blessed the child but predicted his future and none of the prediction has anything to do with establishing a religion. In chapter 21 as well, God explicitly said Isaac is the reckoned son but he will also make of Ishmael a nation and in verse 20 of that same chapter he got a wife and became a "great archer in the wilderness". That is the fulfillment of the prophecy concerning Ishmael. Also note that even Esau was blessed by God in Genesis and he had plenty as recorded in chapter 33. If we are to use your interpretation, one wonders where the religion of Esau is.

No, the previous verse did not exclude Ishmael in any way, the covenant is already in place, so the promise of establishing something already in place with Isaac when he is born in future does not in any way exclude Ishmael.

This is Abraham prayer "oh that Ishmael might LIVE BEFORE you."

God response to the prayer "as for Ishmael, I have HEARD you: I will surely bless him........and I will make him into a great nation.

Do you think the great nation is going to be an Idolatry great nation?

and don't be fooled the blessing of Isaac is not everlasting as verse 19 claimed, because if the blessing is everlasting and it is not going to end Jesus won't be telling the Israelites in Matthew 21:43 that the kingdom of God is going to be taken away from them, and it will be given to a nation that will produce its fruit.

So it is either the covenant is everlasting and Jesus was lying to them or the covenant is not everlasting and Jesus was just telling them their fate.

Ojuntana:
Stop advertising your ignorance. Elohim is not a name God gave himself. It is an appellation given to God by the Hebrews because they feared to call God by His given name which is Yahweh. Elohim is not the only name they call him. They also call him ElShaddai etc. Anywhere you see The Lord used in Hebrew texts, it refers to an appellation given to God by the Hebrews. God is Yahweh in Hebrew not Elohim

I am not sure you are getting my point Sherlock.

Elohim is plural of Eloha
It was used for only Moses in exodus 7:1

That is a majestic plural except you want to tell us God sent at least 2 Moses as Elohim to Pharaoh.

Steep:
exactly they can't see the irony. How can a god claims absolute oneness, yet prefers using "we" to describe himself simply it is more honorable. That is allah is not honorable enough so he had to copy human behaviour of making himself seem more than one person to gain more respect.

Do you know the word Elohim is plural?

Majestic plural is used in some languages. I don't know why some of you are this daft that you don't know about that. Majestic plural is used in both Arabic and Hebrew.

Then the LORD said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. Exodus 7:1

In the verse above the word translated to God is Elohim. Are you telling us God sent 2 or more Moses to Pharaoh?

Even if you knuckleheads want to take Elohim to mean your Father, son and holy spirit hogwash. Did God send a 3 in 1 Moses to Pharaoh?

TenQ:
Do you think by any means I can pronounce the Word YHWH perfectly? YHWH means "I AM!" or "I AM that I AM" meaning the "ONE WHOM ALL CONSISTS IN" or "THE ONE WHO IS SELF EXISTING!"

Thanks be to God that you can read. I cannot even pronounce Allah perfectly but at least I can write it with the Islamic adopted spelling of the transliteration of Allah!

Find another argument!

What is the meaning of the name Allah?

Is it Al-LAH (deity-Lah)?
The old Aramaic name of any Deity is Al- (El-)

Don't forget that
Abdul-LAH is the slave of LAH!
Alhamdulli-LAH is praise be to LAH!

So why are you throwing around YHWH as if you know the correct vowels and the pronunciation, even the Jews don't know the correct pronunciation again.

And how do you know the meaning if you don't know the correct pronunciation?

The meaning of Allah is "The God" Al-ilah. because the Arabic word for deity is ilah and Al is a definite article

Ojuntana:
Gen17vs20 does not imply Islam. It is beyond ridiculous to claim so.

Yeah, it doesn't imply Islam in your dream

So where is the great nation? what you probably don't know is that genesis 17:20 was God response to Abraham prayer "oh that Ishmael might live before you"

Tell us what Genesis 17:20 implies since you know better and let us know when the prophecy was fulfilled.

Ojuntana:
Jews are against Muslims as much as Muslims are against them. One of the sore point is the temple mount in Jerusalem. But besides that, even the Qur'an prescribes fighting and killing Jews and denounced the Torah as adulterated so any Jew who believes Islam must be deluded. Most Jews do not and that's a fact.

The fact that the Arabs and the Jews are at each others throat disprove nothing about Genesis 17:20 nor does it disprove the Jews acknowledging they worship the same God as the Muslims.

Are u now making things up? Where does the Qur'an prescribe fighting and killing the Jews?

Yeah the Torah has been adulterated and Jeremiah 8:8 attested to that.

Unfortunately most Jews believe they worship the same God as the Muslims and this is a fact, and by Jews I mean orthodox Jew and not Zionist, Zionist are majorly non-religious.

Even in their rulings they are allowed to pray in mosques in the absence of synagogue and they wouldn't even enter a church because they consider churches to be a place of Idol worshipping.

If they consider you Christians to be Idol worshippers, and you are claiming to be worshipping YHWH, where do you Christians get your own version of YHWH from?

NB: whatever their beliefs are mean nothing to me as a Muslim.

Ojuntana:
That the person who asked the question is a Rabbi does not make him an authority. Judge for yourself if your prophet was correct about the source of resemblance of parents and their offspring. Automatically, your prophet is calling kids who resemble neither of their parents bastards or stolen kids! Do you agree with him?

the person that was asking the question must have had a fore knowledge about what he was asking the prophet. If the answer he received from the Prophet was not satisfactory for him then he wouldn't have became a muslim because he accepted Islam on the spot.

Ojuntana:
Jews also disagree that Allah is Yahweh. They do not accept Muhammad as a prophet neither do they accept the quranic narratives of their ancestor. Funny enough, the Qur'an accepts that Jesus was a prophet of God while the Jews insist he is not.

Where does the Qur'an accepts the existence of the spirit of God?

Which Jew disagree that Allah is Yahweh? Jews don't even know the correct pronunciation of the name again and they don't use the name. All these Yahweh, Jehovah are just guess work.

I know fully well Allah is not Yahweh according to the Christians, and I will also agree with you 💯. We don't worship a 3 in 1 God

Q 15:29
When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him(Adam) of MY SPIRIT, fall ye down in obeisance unto him.”

TenQ:
Mr Liar: is your God a Boundless Spirit?
Is the name of your God YHWH?
If it isn't, you are a satan worshipper


Even your God doesn't know what a spirit it! SMH!

I have been asking you the Questions: is Allah Omnipresent and Omniscient and Omnipotent?
Your prophet says NO!

How can that be God?

Is the name of y

Tell us the pronunciation YHWH and the meaning if it has a meaning

TenQ:
I guess you are not educated about the Arab Christians.

Again,
The Name of the Allah of the Arab Christians is YHWH!


Ask any Muslim if any of the 99 names of Allah is YHWH?
The name of the Allah of the Arab Muslims is Allah!

What is the Pronunciation of YHWH and does it have a meaning?

Ojuntana:
That's a lie
Most Jews from even the time of Muhammad see him as a fake prophet. The Jews claim exclusivity in the aspect of worship and will never accept any non- Jew as a prophet. Besides, Muhammad was notorious for failing the simple test given to him to prove the genuiness of his claims to prophethood as shown in the hadith below. Judge for yourself!!

Unfortunately, it is not a lie. Some even see the rise of Islam as a fulfillment of Genesis 17:20 and most of them see him as a prophet to the Arabs/Ishmaelites contrary to what you believe that they see him as a fake prophet.

And unfortunately for you again, the person asking the prophet question in the Hadith you are quoting was a Jewish Rabbi and he became a muslim. So how are you sure the prophet failed the test he was put through?

Ojuntana:
Jews call their God Yahweh same as Christians. Jews only disagree with the status of Jesus. They even accept the existence of the Spirit of God!! Do you Muslims accept the spirit of God exists?

The fact remain they disagree with you on your concept of God.

Where do you Christians get your own version of YHWH from?
Are you guys worshipping a counterfeit of the Jewish God?

We muslim also accept the existence of spirit of God.

Ojuntana:
I am not in debate with Jews. The Jews accept the Old Testament as part of Torah. Their debate is about Jesus as a son of God which is not new. The Jews do not accept the Qur'an as writing about their God even though Muhammad copied so many Jewish figures into it.

Well, most Jews will tell you they worship the same God as the Muslims, and we believe our God revealed the Qur'an. What does that tell you?

I am not sure we are ever going to find a Jew that will accept they worship the same God as the Christian.

So are you Christians worshipping a counterfeit of the Jewish God?

Ojuntana:
Eureka!!
There you have it. Bless your soul. The Arabic Allah in Islam is a counterfeit of the Jewish God.
You're enlightened

Confusion in enemies camp

Unfortunately for u and Tenq the Jews don't believe you have the same God as them.

So do you guys worship a God that is counterfeit of the Jewish God?

TenQ:
Is Allah a Spirit? No!
Is Allah a Father? No!
Is Allah Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient? No!

Allah is NOT the God of Abraham, Moses and David thus It's of no wonder that Allah is just as complex like Iblis in description (very simple to describe).

Keep running helter skelter.

Even the Jews you Christians claim you worship the same YHWH with. They disagree with you on the concept of God.

Their view on YHWH is closer to our view on Allah
Their view on God as echad is the same as our view of ahad

So where do you Christians get your own YHWH and your echad (compound one) from? from Iblis?

AntiChristian:
The concept of the Trinity—the Christian doctrine that defines God as one being in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—has been explained through various analogies and theological frameworks. Here’s a summary of some of the best ways it has been explained, along with the corresponding impediments to each explanation:

1.Water Analogy
Explanation: Water can exist in three states: liquid, ice, and steam. Each state is fundamentally water yet manifests differently.
Impediment: This analogy leans towards modalism, suggesting that God merely changes forms rather than existing simultaneously in three persons.

2.Triangular Analogy
Explanation: A triangle has three sides and is one shape. Each side represents a person of the Trinity, unified as one entity.
Impediment: This can imply that the persons of the Trinity are merely parts of a whole, which can lead to a misunderstanding of the distinctiveness and co-equality of the three persons.

3.Roles of a Person Analogy
Explanation: A person can be a parent, a child, and a sibling simultaneously, showcasing different roles while remaining one person.
Impediment: This analogy risks falling into partialism or modalism as well, blurring the lines of individual personhood within the Trinity.

4.Sun Analogy
Explanation: The sun represents the Father, its light represents the Son, and heat represents the Holy Spirit. All are aspects of the same source.
Impediment: This analogy can imply that the Son and the Holy Spirit are not fully divine as they are merely emanations from the Father.

5. Mathematical Analogy
Explanation: Using the equation 1 + 1 + 1 = 1, this analogy emphasizes the unity of the three persons in one essence.
Impediment: It can confuse those unfamiliar with advanced mathematics and may not effectively convey the relationship between the three persons. 1+1+1= 3 not 1.

6. The Egg Analogy
The egg analogy explains the Trinity using an egg's three parts: shell, egg white, and yolk, which together form one egg. It illustrates unity and distinction. However, it risks partialism, implying each part is only a portion of God, and oversimplifies the complex relationships among the three persons.

So what is the best way to explain trinity without embracing modalism, partialism or debasing God from what He is not?

What we can all agree as human being is trinity is not something that can be explained logically. Just like the concept of Jesus being fully man and fully God.

The reason why I am of the opinion that Christianity as a religion is 100% faith and 0% common sense because you are not going to be needing your common sense to accept Christianity, it is just going to be lot of emotional preaching like "God love us so much, he became flesh to die for our sins", "I saw Jesus in my dream" and the likes.. because the evidence of this triune God is find wanting and not clearly stated in the Bible.

SIRTee15:
WHAT EVIDENCE DO YOU HAVE THAT WHAT THE JEWISH PROPHETS WROTE IN THEIR BOOKS ABOUT THEIR GOD IS NOT A FABRICATION.
TELL ME THE EVIDENCE THAT MAKES YOU BELEIVE THE TANAKH IS ACTUALLY FROM THE ONLY TRUE GOD.

THIS DEBATE IS ABOUT 'IS THE QURAN FROM GOD?'. I ASKED 3 QUESTIONS AND YOU FAILED WOEFULLY TO DEFEND ANYONE. ALL U DID IS RUNNING TO THE BIBLE TO HIDE.

3 QUESTIONS ABOUT THE QURAN AND YOU COULDN'T COME UP WITH ANY CONVINCING UNAMBIGOUS CLEAR ANSWER. AND U WANT TO BELEIVE THAT BOOK IS FROM GOD.
THE 3 QUESTIONS EXPOSED THE INCONSISTENCY, HISTORICAL DISCONNECT, POOR HISTORICAL KNOWLEDGE AND GLARING ERROR IN THE QURAN. THESE ARE THE REASONS YOU COULDN'T ASNWER MY QUESTIONS.
I CAN ASK ANOTHER 3 QUESTIONS AND THE OUTCOME WILL STILL BE THE SAME.

as my colleagues as advised, we should end it unless u want to tell me why u believe the tanakh is the true word of God.
I NOTICE U ARE VERY ITCHY TO JUMP TO BIBLE, SO WE CAN AS WELL MOVE TO THE BIBLE. ASK ME BIBLE QUESTIONS OR PROPHECY AND WILL REPLY U- preferably another thread.

These are the 3 questions u asked
(1) Is paedophilia a sin in Islam

My ans: Qur'an 4:6 was my answer. There is marriageable age, and that age coincide to one having sound judgement and be able to manage wealth to some extent.

(2) Is Allah all knowing and all powerful? in relation to Allah not knowing there is possibility of having a son by cloning

My ans: Qur'an 39:4

Had Allah Willed to have a son, He could have chosen whatever He willed of His creation. Glory be to Him! He is Allah—the One, the Supreme."

Allah can have a Son by whatever means possible, He is just not having a son because it is not in his nature.

( 3) U asked about the companions of the Cave, who they are in history and their beliefs for Allah to consider them believers

I told you who they are in history (I guess that is not in the Bible)

For their beliefs for them to be considered believers by Islam standard: I showed that there are some early Christian sects that did not hold the belief of substitutionary vicarious atonement and did not take Jesus as God.

I know what your problem is, you thought you had something in your arsenal to debunk the Qur'an. But unfortunately, you will have to delete these 3 from your list now because it has been dealt with.

The reason we go into the Bible at times is to expose you Christians hypocrisy, you will have something worse in your Bible and you will be attacking Islam for lesser.

Have a great week.

SIRTee15:
As u can see, Jesus made it clear his message is for the whole world and the Quran seem to validate it.

Are you telling me "I am only sent to the lost sheep of House of Israel' mean I am not only sent to the lost sheep of House of Israel?

And the Instruction "Do not go into the ways of the Gentiles and Samaritan" mean go into the ways of the Gentiles and Samaritan?

The real question is why did Jesus said he was only sent to the lost sheep of house of Israel?
Was he lying or Did he forget his mission.?

So don't hide behind those who followed his teachings after he left.

SIRTee15:
U gotta be kidding me, most absurd and ridiculous statement I have ever heard. No wonder U failed woefully to defend the Qur'an in this debate but will quickly duck to the bible because in your thinking if I can prove the bible wrong then Quran is right.

There many other ABRAHAMIC religions- what happened to Bahia faith, what happened to The Mormons, Sikhism and even judiasm- who still await the Messiah.
What about Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism and even African traditional religion. What evidence do U have that Orunmila and his divine oracle is not from God?

I thought you already believe in God of Abraham and that is the reason you are a Christian, the reason why I focus my beam on Christianity and Islam in relation to Judaism. but here you are bringing Obatala, Hinduism, Buddhism, and the likes, u even have to go to off shoots like Mormon and Baha'i just to take a cheap shot.

Is there a low you can't go to win argument?

SIRTee15:
How do U even know the Abrahamic religion has the true God. How do U know what is written in the bible is from the Only true God.
There was monotheistic faith 1000 yrs b4 Abraham even came on stage and that deity is not God of the bible.
People had been worshipping Only One deity- monotheism for a thousand years before Abraham said he was called by YAHWEH as the only true God.
So how do U know Abraham was right and those b4 him were wrong.

I now understand your problem. Your faith is based on refuting Christianity, then adopting the next similar religion to it.
U don't even know enough about your Qur'an to defend it convincingly.
Your theological foundation is poor. Your faith is blind.

I think our next debate should actually be Why is the God of the Abrahamic religion the True God. What evidence do we have to prove that the God called ELOHIM OR WHO REVEALED HIMSELF AS YHWH is the Only True God.
We need to go back to the foundation first b4 all these structure we are building.

I can tell you for a fact that there is no way you SirTee can conveniently prove any Abrahamic religion has the true God, because you make a joke of prophecies, they mean nothing to you.
You had to agree with the scholars you hate so much on the prophecies in the book of Daniel, U will rather accept the prophecies failed than accept Islam fulfilled the prophecy. You have to do some wuru-wuru with Isaiah 53 just to make sure Jesus fulfilled the prophecy.

And here you are saying shit about me having a poor theological foundation and a blind faith. I am not sure you have been looking into the mirror lately.

SIRTee15:
This is a waste of time. I already debunked Son of Man in Daniel, whether U accept evidence of ancient Jewish text and from Jesus own word is your business.
Unless U can bring a counter evidence, pls don't go back to that passage.

U have debunked nothing bro, this is a prophecy that is supposed to line up with history, and we know how history played out. But if you want to hide behind some unknown document of some unknown Jewish sect and turn a blind eye to how history actually played out. No Problem.

It is not our emotions that will count in the end.

SIRTee15:
Next I will debunk the prophet like Moses. He's Jesus and can never be Muhammed.

I will also debunk the lies that the blessing of Abraham via his offspring can never be Muhammed.

But most importantly we need to establish and produce evidence that the God of the Abrahamic religion is the only True God.
Why is other deity before Abrahim and after him false even if they are monotheism.

U don't need to debunk anything again.. if you can go against a prophecy that we know how it played out in history, you will go against anything just to remain in your folly. The truth does not matter to you, you just want to win argument.

SIRTee15:
My brother I just taya.
I think I will give up now that I have finally diagnosed his problem.

U have a very big mouth for someone still struggling between all those religions u listed up there.

SIRTee15:
Stop deviating. ISA was sent to the people of Israel not people of Asia minor.
How come people from Ephesus are called Christians. Why are they following Messiah sent only to the Israelites according to your Qur'an?

Stop ducking to the bible. Even if Christianity is wrong, that doesn't make Islam right.

How come we are finding followers of ISA amongst gentiles.

I already showed you in your scripture where Prophet Isa clearly states He was only sent to the Israelites confirming what the Qur'an says about his mission.

So the fact that his message spread to Ephesus after he left is not his fault in any way.

And yes if Christianity is wrong that automatically make Islam right.

Because if both are wrong that implies God has failed in his promise.

The promise he made to Abraham
"and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me.”

He has failed with that Individual he promised to send to the whole world.
That servant of Isaiah 42, the son of man of Daniel, the prophet like Moses of Deut 18:18, Desire of all nation of Haggai 2:7

And we both know God can't fail with his promise.

SIRTee15:
We Christians believe in Trinity and deity of Christ because it's in the scriptures and the early Jewish sect confirmed it. Not because some 360 old men raised their hands and voted Yes in a church building in the 4th century.
Nobody in Christianity cares about Nicene creed. It's irrelevant to our belief. If whatever they believe didn't come from the scripture we will reject it.
There were numerous councils by church fathers in that period including praying for saints, purgatory etc majority of Christians rejected it because it's not in the bible.

One of these days, you will show me that trinity in the scripture. Not for argument sake, I just want to know how you trinitarians deal with verses like these emphasizing God's singular nature.

Deuteronomy 4:35: "You were shown these things so that you might know that the Lord is God; besides him there is no other."

Isaiah 45:5: "I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God."

Exodus 20:3: "You shall have no other gods before me."

Psalm 86:10: "You are great and do marvelous deeds; you alone are God."

Psalm 83:18: "Let them know that you, whose name is the Lord—that you alone are the Most High over all the earth."

And with Jesus that y'all claimed to be part of that God making statement like this

John 20:17: I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

Luke 22:42: Father if you are willing, take this cup from me, yet not my will, but yours be done.

John 17:3: Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

And the ancient Jewish sect that confirms the triune God and the prophetic authority they had.

SIRTee15:
Ok fine. If U want to base your validity of the scriotue on evidence from NT scholars then U have to apply smart principle fully and to the Qur'an.
NT scholars unanimously agree that Jesus was crucified and that John the baptist baptised Jesus.
Do U accept their claim.

Non Muslim Quranic scholars also claim the Qur'an has myths and legends in it and that the injil and Torah mentioned in the Quran is the same as the gospel and Torah with the Christians and Jews.

Do U agree with them?

Is u disagree, why then do U want me to accept the claims of NT scholars blankly without any counterevidence.

We have the writings of the early church fathers which prove the 27 books have the correct authors ascribed to them.
Why should I believe NT scholars over church fathers?
If U insist that the authority of NT scholars override that of religious leaders, then same should apply to U.
Simple.


Evidence from apostolic fathers and early church leaders as far back as 90 AD confirms the authenticity of the NT.
U can bring up anyone of the NT books and will give U evidence of it's authenticity from the early church fathers.

U very funny. U know nothing about the ebionites outside of what that early church fathers wrote about them. And stop lying church fathers as back as early 2nd century wrote about them.
Now when what's written about them goes with your narrative, then that's true; BUT when it's not convenient then they must be lying against ebionites.
How are U even sure ebionites ever existed, they could have made them up to counter heresy flying around.

I don't just swallow whatever the scholars are saying I am not that biased. I know how badly they want to tear apart supernatural claims and the likes.

A man that lived 2000yrs ago, with all those crucifixion stories around him. What exactly do you want them to conclude? He flew to heaven alive?

Of course I will apply same principle fully to the Qur'an. The worst any scholar can say is the Qur'an we read today goes back to Uthman council. And that is enough for me, I go use faith carry the remaining. There are some among them that have argued that the Qur'an was probably written by a council during the Abbasid caliphate, but the presence of manuscripts that even date back to the life time of the Prophet have put that claim to shame.

Just give me early church fathers that confirmed these 2 gospels Mark and Matthew. If Matthew wrote Matthew and Mark wrote Mark, What that would mean for me is Jesus Disciples that lived and walked with him actually did believe he was crucified.

Iraneous was the first to write about them and he lived 130 - 202 CE, so he probably wrote around mid to late 2nd century so I'm not that far off.

Who wrote about them in the early 2nd century?

SIRTee15:
How come Allah didn't know anything about Gene cloning?
Why should Allah dependent on a spouse to have a Son?

If God the Father decides to clone himself to give us God the son, then that son is still going to be a creation of the Father because he would have been willed into existence by the Father and Qur'an 39:4 already negate that possibility

"Had Allah Willed to have a son, He could have chosen whatever He willed of His creation. Glory be to Him! He is Allah—the One, the Supreme."

Here, Allah is telling us if He will it, of cos He can do it. But He is not doing it because it is not in His nature to have a son.

So don't bother to argue Allah does not know the possibilities of having a son by cloning or whatever.

Odingo1:
My research on Christian Bible shows that the act was prohibited by Moses on their way to promise land. It is forbidden for them to marry their uncle daughter or stepdaughter.
Leviticus 20:17-21 and Deuteronomy 27:20-23 clearly prohibited those practices for the Jews.

Are u now making things up?

None of the Leveticus and the Deuteronomy u are referencing forbid cousins marriage, infact cousins marriage is a practice common among Jews too.

The Bible does not forbid marriage between cousins.

Odingo1:
Then why will my ancestors know better than the Koran, because in my cultural tradition, that is one of the highest abominable incest one can commit. As far as the risk is greater than 1% that is much. I am yet to see a culture that permit someone to marry adopted son wife if they divorce.

why do you think your culture is the best? And why do think whatever your culture frown at should be frown at every where.

Guy u don already open thread for adopted son wife, I commented on the thread. I have given my opinion on the thread. If you are not ok with it, so be it.

Odingo1:
That is not what verse 4:23 said, attached is what the verse said, you are adding your own. The question is not about whether British or elsewhere culture is doing it. The contention is why will a Koran book that was claimed to come from god allow such despicable practices of marring your uncle daughter that have medical disorder implications and also a stepdaughter or divorced adopted son wife as practiced by prophet Mohammed.

Do you kno the risk is 3% in unrelated couples and around 4-6% in Cousins marriage?

Are we not going to marry again since the risk is also present in unrelated couples?

Yeah, it is permitted. But if you are not cool with it then stay away. You are only looking at it from the perspective of your own culture. Some cultures are cool with it.

Odingo1:
The verse said that you can marry your stepdaughter if you did not marry the mother before. Read it again slowly.

And for the cousins part, yeah it is permissible.
It is not something peculiar to Islam, some cultures do permit that.

But if your cultures does not permit it, then stay away from it.

Odingo1:
The verse said that you can marry your stepdaughter if you did not marry the mother before. Read it again slowly.

So if you did not marry the mother of a lady before, how is the lady your stepdaughter?

What the verse is talking about is if you have consummated a marriage with a woman then you can't marry her daughter again.

Odingo1:
Attached is the quote, that is why prophet Mohammed married his Uncle daughter and after that he also married his adopted son wife Zaynab.

But step daughters are mentioned in verse

SIRTee15:
That is not my question.
Stop answering what I didn't ask U.
Did Allah inform the ebionites and Jesus inner circle that Jesus didn't die thus issue of ressurection is a fallacy.
How did ebionites come about believing in the ressurection of Jesus if it never happened.
Did Allah reveal to the true Muslims that Jesus never died and this could t have resurrected.
If the bible points towards Allah saving ISA, then why did his companions erroneously thought he died and resurrected.
Where did they get that knowledge from?
This is my question.

Well, It's because you are not connecting the dot, that's the reason u feel I am not answering your question.

Your erroneous conclusion that we know what the apostles actually believed is because you are assuming all the books of the new testament were actually written by the authors that are ascribed to them, unfortunately out of all the 27 books therein scholars believe only 7 were correctly ascribed, the rest are likely forgeries. And all the 7 are Paul's, so not even all the books ascribed to Paul are believed to have been written by Paul.
It is not the Muslims that are saying this o, it is New testament scholars.

And there are strong indications that some of these Apostles actually did write, for example the Hebrew gospel written by Matthew, the gospel written by Mark that was also described by Papias in such a way that it is different from the Mark gospel we ended up with. But these documents did not survive.

So how do we know for certainty what the Apostles believed or did not believe if we are not sure we have anything from them?

And for the Ebionites, most of what we know about them are from what the gentile Christians in around 3rd - 4th century wrote about the Ebionites of their time.

I'm sorry, I'm going to take God's word over the testimony of all the people in this world. The reason why I was referencing Psalm 91 and the Qur'an confirming it.

SIRTee15:
Ok let me debate U on this...let me show U we Christians don't shy from our scriptures.
There are clear explicit passages in the gospel where Jesus defined Son of God but of course Qasim will reject it.
But to show that we Christians can defend all verses in our scriptures standing alone without ducking to other verses to safe face, I will take U on it.
All U ve done so far in this debate is either avoid difficult questions, deflect it or flatly denied your books.

Ok
Is Jesus claiming to be Son of God just like the Jews? The answer is No.

Psalm 82 refers to mortal sinful men as gods. That shows how elevated Man is in God's presence.

The psalmist have this to say about mere Man...
Psalm 8
what is mankind that you are mindful of them,
human beings that you care for them?

5 You have made them a little lower than Elohim
and crowned them with glory and honor.
6 You made them rulers over the works of your hands;
you put everything under their feet: all flocks and herds,



Man is suppose to dominate here on earth, everything should be under our control here on earth.
because we are made in the image of God, we are suppose to reign supreme on earth just like God reign supreme in heaven and the universe. Bible says we will even judge angels.

1 Corinthians 6
Do you not know that we shall judge the angels? How much more, then, the things of this life!

Man is a powerful being, he's not ordinary; and that's what Jesus is pointing out for the Jews...they are mortal men but are highly placed in the hierarchy of authority.
Psalm 82.1 says ..
God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the “gods”:

The ""gods" in that verse is Man if he knows what he's doing.

Man should be responsible before God to judge on his behalf. Man is meant to make right and sound judgement just like God would if He were in their place. In this sense we are called "gods."


However due to the fallen state of Man, the sons of God in psalm 82 didn't judge right, they were wicked and oppressive- that can't be Jesus
The sons of God in the chapter walked in darkness, know nothing and understand nothing - that cannot be Jesus.
They were condemned and told they will die like mortals- both bible and Quran agree Jesus is alive.

Thus Jesus cannot be lumped amongst the sons of God in psalm 82 and Jesus will never use such despicable attributes to describe himself.
The sons of God in Psalm 82 were the Jews, not Jesus Christ.

Jesus then made His point: "If the Scripture calls mere sinful men 'gods- with all those powerful attributes' (and the Scripture cannot be broken), then how can I be wrong to call Myself 'God'? If men are called 'gods' in Psalm 82:6, then how can it be blasphemy for the SON OF GOD to be called 'God'?"
Notice what Jesus says about Himself in John 10:36:
He is the One that God the Father has sanctified (set apart in a very special way). Jesus Christ is the Unique One. There is no One like Him!
He is the One whom God has sent into the world. He came from God!
He claimed to be the Son of God (John 10:36). And the Jews knew that when a person claimed to be the Son of God He was claiming to be equal with God.

John 5.17
In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Quite lengthy but I hope even U will learn one or two things about who you are as a Man and not just slave slave the Qur'an wants to turn everybody into...
You are not a slave, U are a powerful being.

That's why most times when U quote the scripture, I just ignore it because it's so obvious U don't know what U taking about.

That's a beautiful preaching Pastor Sirtee, unfortunately today is not sunday you can wait till tomorrow.

I flatly denied our Books you say? Can I just bring the writings of any of the early church fathers to you then impose it on you? because that's exactly what you are doing with the Tafsir
And which difficult questions did I avoid?

And I really don't think all these your stories and preaching is necessary.

By the statement
"I and the Father are one"
Was Jesus claiming to be God?

If He was, were the Jews right to have accused him of blasphemy based on the fact that this is a man in front of them claiming to be God?

Odingo1:
That who is marrying who is abominable in our land, why will a religion that it prophet claim to hear from god permit such dirty marriage. My question is why should Alla permit such marriages

Ok no problem.

Kindly quote Qur'an 4:23 here and let's see.

Odingo1:
This is a serious reason my people cannot be Muslims because this is an act of committing abomination in my tradition and are regarded as incest.

Can Muslim explain why Allah permit them in Koran Sura an Nissa 4 vs 23 to marry their stepdaughter and Uncle daughters, that is to marry a daughter of your father brother or mother brother or an adopted girl child which is your daughter or marry your adopted son wife if they divorce. Prophet Mohammed married his brother daughter Zainab and his adopted son wife.

Are you sure you know what you are talking about?

Seems your own problem is who is marrying who

Kingsempires:
no be lie you talk he always like to turn bible upside down just see quote so now he is trying to call prophet Isaiah a liar


He knowledge of the bible is 0% he knows nothing about the bible

I am not calling a prophet of God a liar, and I will never do that

Did Jesus name or Messiah appear anywhere in Isaiah 53?
Isaiah 53 clearly states the suffering servant will live long to see his offspring.
Did Jesus have offspring? If he didn't have offspring then Isaiah 53 can't be about him.

And psalm 91 was thrown at Jesus in gospel according to Matthew. He was asked to jump off a cliff.

Mat 4:6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “’He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’”

This is a clear reference to psalm 91, when we go to psalm 91 we see it is talking about someone that will be in trouble and God will save him, this individual won't even dash his foot against a stone not to talk of being beaten, nailed to a cross, and pierced with a spear. This prophecy also clearly have the name of Jesus (that we can say the prophecy is probably foreshadowing his name)

So what we have in our hands are two prophecies that are at loggerheads and can't be of the same person because one is about a suffering servant and the other is about someone that won't suffer.

As a rational human being that I am, I'll be going with Psalm 91 and these are my reasons

- It was thrown at Jesus, He did not deny it was about him.(infact he seems to have have confirmed it was about him with his response)
- this prophecy foreshadows his name.
- the prophecy line up to what happened to him at a later time (him being scared of wat is going to happen to him and praying to God to turn the cup away from him in Gethsemane)
- and my personal bias as a Muslim because we believe he was actually saved from the crucifixion because that's what our Qur'an tell us.

If you believe Isaiah 53 is about him and not psalm 91 or you believe you can reconcile both prophecies to be about him kindly let me know how you reach that conclusion, You can also call your champion SIRTee15 that feels I don't know what I'm taking about at times when I'm quoting the Bible. Not that you will just be accusing me of calling a Prophet of God a liar.

SIRTee15:
What about resssurection? Who told the Ebionites that Jesus resurrected. Where did the belief come from?
Did Allah convey his message to the inner circle that he saved ISA or he waited for 600 yrs to correct the confusion he himself created.

It is plainly there in Psalm 91 that nothing will happen to him that he will not even dash his foot against a stone. But somehow you want us to believe that same person was beaten, nailed to a cross and pierced with a spear. and because u don't want the Bible to explain the Bible to you, you will rather cling to a problematic Isaiah 53.

Qur'an is just confirming that God kept his promise to the Messiah.

Those prophecies are not in there for decorations hope you know?

SIRTee15:
Muslims are very funny. U people will accuse Christians of using vague passages to explain trinity or deity of Christ and demand explicit verses where these doctrines are defined but here U are desperately holding into a vague passage to explain Son of God; when we have clear explicit passages where Jesus himself defined Son of GOD- but of course those passages must be corrupt according to Muslims.

I brought one already and here's another
John 5.23
That all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
John 3.16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life

But of course the above are corrupt verses according to Qasim.

Now to John 10. The vague passage

Jesus said I and Father are one.
The ignorant Jews concluded that was blasphemy because he was claiming to be God
Jesus referred them to their scriptures where they were called gods- God made man in his image. The spirit of man is the image of God. So every human has a reflection of God in them.
And above is not blasphemy.
Now Jesus asked them that If above is true and it's not blasphemy how much more the Person God set apart as his very own and sent into the world? v36
What does the highlighted mean- John 3.16, Luke 22.60, Mark 14.16

No, the passage is not vague, you are only pretending as if you don't understand what was going on there.

The passage Jesus was directing them to was psalm 82:6
“I said, ‘You are “gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.’

And he was telling them he is only claiming to be son of God.
Your God was denying to be God.

SIRTee15:
Why not bring a Tafsir that agrees with U. Or U mean none of your scholars agree with your pattern of reasoning.
If that's the case, then that's very serious....

U better don't bring the hadith up...or U just going to make things worse for your Allah and his Qur'an!!!

The most intelligent Muslim after Muhammed himself.

Anyway back to story of the men in the cave.
Why are they following Jesus in the first place?

I thought Jesus was only sent to the Israelites.
And the Qur'an confirms a prophet is only sent to his own people in their own language, and only Muhammed is sent to the whole world.
Then why are natives of Ephesus following Jesus?
Are they not suppose to follow the prophet Allah sent to them in Ephesus or Ancient minor.
Why did they ignore their own prophet Allah sent to them in their own language and followed a prophet sent only to the Jews.

Maybe you should first explain why Jesus said He was only sent to the lost sheep of house of Israel, also making sure to warn the apostles not to go into the ways of the gentiles.

Did he forget his mission when he was making that statement? Cos I will be worried if someone that came for my salvation exclude me that way.

I'll be waiting for your beautiful spin though.

SIRTee15:
Until U are scholastic enough to write your own Tafsir, U can shove your opinion down your throat.
Tafsir rejector.

Deal with this....if it's choking U, feel free to spit it out but FACT REMAIN FACT. TAFSIR REMAIN TAFSIR.
upon which another man asked: “O Messenger of Allah! What about the waiting period of those who do not have menstruation because they are too young?” (along with those who have it not) because of young age, their waiting period is three months


The evidence I brought clearly showed puberty in ancient Jewish girl is defined as 14 yrs.
Within 1-2 yrs they get married, which makes perfect sense.
The source is from Sanhedrin text itself- the ancient rabbinical codification on laws and custom.

U can move the ancient Jewish puberty to 6 if that makes U feel better and helps validate Quran, but here we dealing with facts not mere opinion.

You can call me whatever you like, I'm not just going to swallow any Tafsir thrown at me like a zombie.

I believe the best way to understand the Qur'an is using the Qur'an to explain the Qur'an then the Hadith then Tafsirs.

Why am I not even suprised you are calling me Tafsir rejector, u swallowed a man-made doctrine formed over 300 years after Jesus.
Na, I don't do blind faith.