₦airaland Forum

haibe: When you answer your own question, you can helo someone else.

Now go back to attend to yours, I can't count how many questions you have ignored in like manner

You have now been caught in your own web!

haibe: The problem with you is deception and being biased, infact arguing with you is like arguing with the devil, you turn and twist things to suit you.

don't you know the word spiritual being and spirit being is the same thing? Are you so weak in reasoning or what?


Noun 1. spiritual being - an
incorporeal being
believed to have
powers to affect the
course of human
events
supernatural being
belief - any cognitive content held as
true
occult , supernatural - supernatural
forces and events and beings
collectively; "She doesn't believe in
the supernatural"
deity , divinity , god , immortal - any
supernatural being worshipped as
controlling some part of the world or
some aspect of life or who is the
personification of a force
aeon , eon - (Gnosticism) a divine
power or nature emanating from the
Supreme Being and playing various
roles in the operation of the universe
angel - spiritual being attendant
upon God
faerie , faery, fairy, fay, sprite - a
small being, human in form, playful
and having magical powers


Now tell me the difference with spirit being and spiritual being above.

Infact your arguments irritate me.

You must always be absent minded when you do these postings. I said you do not know the difference between "spirit" and "spiritual" and you just proved it!

haibe: pronunciation(IPA): /ɡəʊst/(IPA): ghost

The disembodied spirit; the soul or spirit of a deceased person; a spirit appearing after death; an apparition; a specter.

The mighty ghosts of our great Harries rose. — Shakespeare.
I thought that I had died in sleep/And was a blessed ghost.— Coleridge


Is the dictionary right by saying THE DISEMBODIED SPIRIT?

You have labored so hard to 'prove' that ghosts mean "spirit of a deceased person". You also told us from the same dictionary that ghost mean "Phantom" and "illusion" which means "non-existent" "imaginary" "magic" "unreal" etc. Now tell me: DO YOU NOW BELIEVE GHOST EXIST? Can we assume that what Jesus told His disciples was: "See me, THE SPIRIT OF A DECEASED PERSON does not have flesh and bone as you see I have" IS THIS CORRECT? Can we also assume that Jesus is conversant and believes in this "non-existent", unreal" phenomenon?

Haibe, I still need you to attend to this questions.

haibe: no you are questioning the bible, the bible gave the perfect description of Jesus as a spiritual being in heaven and yet you still say Jesus is a physical man in heaven, you see yourself?

Haibe, why not first 'cure' yourself of this your inability to differentiate between "Spirit" and "spiritual". This will help you to be principled and become stable. All these 'floating' and 'chameleonic' contributions are becoming distractions I must confess.

haibe: Please sir what is the spirit of the dead appearing to the living called in English language?

I do not know what it is called. I do not believe in it. If you are asking me about the spirit of man which goes to God after death, then I will say the Bible calls it "spirit" or "soul" that is all.

haibe: Oo so now image means appearance abi?

I thought you said the image of the heavenly body doesn't mean appearance, lol.

If he is the exact image of the invisible God, how can he be visible?

God is both visible and invisible. That is why we call Him the Almighty - The El-shadai - The One who can do all things!

"Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing." And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped." Revelation 5:12-14

Being visible or invisible does not reduce the Almightiness of the Godhead.

haibe: Please sir what is the spirit of the dead appearing to the living called in English language?

Haibe, my question to you is: IS THERE A SPIRIT OF THE DEAD apart from the spirit of Man that leaves to God after death Ecc. 12:7?

This question holds the key now!

haibe: JMAN corrected me that the greek word translated spirit there is "phantasma" when infact I thought it was PNEUMA as used in other verses for spirit and so I went ahead to confirm and found out this is actually true, you think am like you that someone will tell you something and you would turn a deaf hear without going to confirm

The greek word translated ghost in that verse is PHANTASMA, phantasma means phantom in english and according to my dictionary phantom means an illusion or a ghost

So you can see Jesus did not mean spirit being in that verse but ghost, the greek word used wasn't PNEUMA which is the original word for spirit in other verses.

So you don't have any excuse saying Jesus was talking about spirit being in that verse, he was talking about ghost, he ressurected a spirit being.

I will still urge you to study hard in order to be sure of what you are saying and so you wouldn't think you are following God's standard when you are only deluding yourself, don't just assume every word in the english translation of the bible is correcr, none of those that translated it claimed to be inspired by God, we can only be sure that the original greek text is what was inspired and that is why before interpreting words anyhow we should try to confirm if it corresponds to that which is in the original text.

However if you still want to assume the english translation is 100% accurate then you can go ahead taking all words as they are without confirming but please don't confuse people, that is when the problem will start.

How come you that is so versed in Greek language now have a 'teacher' in JMAN? If a blind leads the blind...

So now how did the Greek word phantasma and phantom which also mean an illusion translate to the spirit of the dead? I was expecting these Greek and dictionary meanings to tell us that a phantom or and illusion also means the spirit of the dead but I cannot find that anywhere.

My question to you now is: How did you come about this conclusion? From my little knowledge, an illusion is something that is imaginary, unreal, non-existent, trumped-up, magic, trickery, deception. A phantom is a Ghost which is also translated spirit (not spirit of the dead) or an apparition.

Your I-know-it-all mentality is telling you that "ghost" that Jesus said has no flesh and bone is "non-existent", "magic", "trickery", "apparition" etc.

Very soon now you will translate your own Bible with all these contraptions you have stomached. I pray we would have all gone up in rapture before your Haibe translation of the 'Bible' comes out. LOL

haibe: The answer is we will dwell in the new jerusalem which is literally heaven on earth, since it is heaven only heavenly bodies can dwell there.

you didn't answer the question you quoted, please do.

Is God going to build another body from heaven and foist it on us or what you mean exactly by heavenly bodies?

Please remind me of the unanswered question you are referring to here.

haibe: The answer is we will dwell in the new jerusalem which is literally heaven on earth, since it is heaven only heavenly bodies can dwell there.

you didn't answer the question you quoted, please do.

Is God going to saw build another body from heaven and foist it on us or what you mean exactly by heavenly bodies?

Please remind me of the unanswered question

Itsfacts: and jman is wrong. same word used in greek is same as the words used for spirits. like when bible are describing the spirit beings.
there is no way the greek word was meaning phantom.

With you i have seeing alot of contradiction on jman and your self. some he has refused to answer or reply.

the Jerusalem that will come to earth. will God let only 144 thousand inside? and the rest of us will be outside walking?

He is quoting Jman as if he is an authority. Well, may be he is an authority to him, but we are committed to God's infallible Word. We have no other authority!

haibe: the word spirit is a very complex word as used in the scriptures and if you are holding to it without confirming what it actually means, you will be deceiving yourself.

Jman should us all the greek word translated spirit in that verse mean phantom and the word phantom means an imagination, illusion or ghost apparition.

that verse wasn't talking about spirit beings but ghosts(disembodied spirit of the deceased or apparition of a dead person).

Jesus was saying he was no ghost like they use to belief in

So did JMAN say the so called disembodied spirit of the deceased can be seen physically like the disciples saw Jesus? Please answer this question.

Now the question I will ask you is this" Can a dead person appear to the living?

The problem you have is fear of going against your church traditions, you don't want to find the exact meaning of words, you just want to assume complex things in one dimension without seeking evidence from their sources and I must tell you that you are a bad bible student, you are biased, you don't want to seek the truth but let me tell you, church doctrines are not always right, you need to go further to study on your own.

So did JMAN say the so called disembodied spirit of the deceased can be seen physically like the disciples saw Jesus? Please answer this question.

I have said it repeatedly here that scripture does not support that your idea of spirit of dead people going up and down in the world.

Jesus was talking about evil spirit. He knows dead men do not walk about. You are deceiving yourself Haibe!

That you are rebelling against your church is entirely your business. The doctrines of the Bible are not hard to find. They are clearly there. It is the 'know-it-all' fellows who refuses to come under authority that wonder here and there acquiring false doctrines, that will not see them.

[quote author=haibe]Do you know the difference between a ghost and spirit beings? ? why are you acting like a dummy?

Are spirit beings dead like ghosts?

ARE SPIRIT BEINGS DEAD LIKE GHOST?

Are you sure you do not sleep when you write these things? are you sure you do not really believe in ghost?

Do you know the difference between a ghost and spirit beings? ? why are you acting like a dummy?

Are spirit beings dead like ghosts?

ARE SPIRIT BEINGS DEAD LIKE GHOST?

Are you sure you do not sleep when you write these things? are you sure you do not really believe in ghost?

haibe: yes it was really Jesus, ghosts do not have muscle and bones, no person who belief in ghost will tell you they do.

Are ghost real then? Haibe you are an 'impossibility'!

Jesus is saying, "I did not become a spirit. Check me out, I am still the same!"

Itsfacts: it kills your argument

first jesus made it clear spirit dont have flesh and bones. you said jesus was joking because he is telling them he is not a spirit when he is a spirit
(you didnt actually saying that way but you meant it that way)

the angels dont have flesh and bones

now job said from his flesh he shall see God. which agrees with what jesus said that he is flesh and not a spirit.

and you said this does not prove anything. i feel like leaving benin and come down to where you are and say to you. DROP YOUR PRIDE.

what i understand is 1st adam is from earth we got his image which is death. 2nd adam is from heaven we got his image which is Life.

it doesnt not mean form or how we look.

adam was created in the image of God. tell me is adam a spirit when he was created? no. God is not Human being.

You see, I am seriously disturbed that Haibe could be taking his self-opinionating to the height of even questioning the integrity of our Lord Jesus Himself. Jesus said something that is so clear that even the deaf could understand and yet this guy is turning it and almost replacing it with his. I have been looking for a very simple way to break down completely the words of Jesus for Haibe to see. May be this translation by the Message will break it down for him so he can come down from his mountain of self-opinion and accept the simple words that Jesus said:
"Look at my hands; look at my feet—IT'S REALLY ME. Touch me. Look me over from head to toe. A ghost doesn’t have muscle and bone like this.” Luke 24:39
Having a spiritual body is not equivalent of being a spirit.

haibe: A quick question: before Jesus came to earth was he a spiritual being or a physical being?

Having a spiritual body does not make us spirits and it does not alter the way we look. "Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known". If you all meet in heaven, we will know and recognize each other. So the question ISFACTS is asking is very, very key. Are we going to become an invisible nation since we shall ultimately live in the new heaven and new earth?

Itsfacts: you mean he did not see the lamb the way it was slain?
flesh and blood cant inherit the kingdom of God. Can bones inherit it?

the kingdom of God will be brought to earth we will have new earth. So are we going to be spirit to be on earth?

the flesh job use to see God after he arise is it a flesh of a spirit?

Haibe definitely has a challenge with his understanding of the difference between "spirit" and "spiritual". I hope he will be humble enough to learn. He argued so ferociously albeit blindly about ghosts and spirits until he was awkwardly bailed out. His literally 'prostrating' and 'licking' JMAN05's 'booths' did not stop him from continuing his blind argument not long after. He has changed the direction of this 'lively debate' severally by his unnecessary distractions. He is an incurable 'argument-monger'. I must admit however, that he has made the house very, very noisy and alive by his 'restlessness'.

haibe: and did I say they are wrong? why do yoi quote out of context, I said the people who wrote dictionary did not need to know about spiritual body and that doesn't mean the angels don't have spiritual body, how is this saying they are wrong for anything. ?

the issue here is not even definitions, it is use of English, if all spirits don't have bodies, then it will be tautological for the dictionary to use disembodied spirit.

please don't quote me if you don't have anything meaningful to reply.

by the way the topic of this thread should be maintained, you can create another thread for the issue of spiritual bodies.

@Haibe: You speak from the both sides of your mouth. You just want to win an argument at all cost. You should sometimes pause and learn.

JMAN05: Spirits eat when they materialise.

Genesis 19:1-3 KJV
And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground; [2] And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night. [3] And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

Angels do eat for enjoyment not for sustenance. They can also have sex. Angels are not spirits in the sense we are discussing here because core spirits do not do these things! They are special spiritual beings. They are made to eat even in heaven. The manna that the children of Israel ate in the wilderness is the food they eat in heaven. Psalm 78:23-25; Genesis 18.8; Hebrews 13.2. We are not discussing angels here.

JMAN05: Spirits eat when they materialise.

Genesis 19:1-3 KJV
And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground; [2] And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night. [3] And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

Angels do eat for enjoyment not for sustenance. Angels are not spirits in the sense we are discussing here. They are special spiritual beings. They are made to eat even in heaven. The manna that the children of Israel ate in the wilderness is the food they eat in heaven. Psalm 78:23-25; Genesis 18.8; Hebrews 13.2. We are not discussing angels here.

haibe: don't misuse the word spirit and ghost now, we are not in the 15th century.

Jesus was right that ghosts don't have flesh and bones, the idea of ghost is not of a spiritual body like the angels but a disembodied spirit, this is only a mythology, they don't exist.

Jesus did not appear to them as a ghost(disembodied spirit) like you believe christians will after they die, he appeared to then as a ressurected spiritual person.

Jesus wasn't fooling anyone, he was truely not a ghost, he is alive.

Haibe hear yourself: "JESUS WAS RIGHT THAT GHOSTS DON'T HAVE FLESH AND BONES......THIS IS ONLY A MYTHOLOGY, THEY DON'T EXIST"

There is nothing like ghost in the sense you are insinuating.

haibe: yes it is logical according to the scriptures, the bible never said the ressurection will be in that same physical body but in a spiritual and heavenly body.

1 Corinthians15:51-52
King James Version (KJV)

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED.

yes Jesus body was changed, he didn't ressurect in that same body he died in, he ressurected in an heavenly body, he couldn't have gone to heaven without this heavenly body.

You are still getting it all wrong. The resurrection of Jesus. Is totally different from the resurrection that will happen at the consummation of all things. Our resurrection is a type of that of Christ. The same principles and format yet totally different. Jesus' resurrection is a proof of His capacity to fulfill His promise to resurrect those that believe in Him. NO ONE ELSE DIED TO SAVE SINNERS! Jesus' resurrection is not the same as the one being written in 1 Corinthians 15. Please do not use those two standards, they are not the same. IF JESUS DID NOT RESURRECT IN THE SAME BODY CRUCIFIED, THEN HIS CLAIM THAT IF THEY DESTORYED THE BODY, HE WILL RAISE IT UP IN THREE DAYS, IS FALSE. It will mean that God is not able. But thank God He is able. He said" "destroy this temple (body) and I will raise it up in three days"

The statement in 1 Corinthians 15:51 "We shall be changed" is talking about our bodies. It will be resurrected the same person and then changed. Those alive at that time will also have their bodies changed. If you understand that JESUS' BODY ONLY CHANGED WHEN HE WENT UP INTO THE SKY, you will save yourself a lot of unnecessary arguments.

haibe: the question is how can an immaterial being (whether God or angel) eat if they did not materialise?

don't dodge questions, answer them.

The word 'Materialization' is occult terminology. Please do not use it again. THERE IS NOTHING LIKE THAT IN THE CHRISTIAN DICTIONARY. Apart from the English meaning which is different from what you are trying to push down our throats here, is has no place in the Christian World.

haibe: Thanks for correcting, I meant jacob there not Joshua.

You are right, some scriptures actually use the angel of the lord, whether God or angel they are both spirit beings and so the focal point here is how will someone immaterial eat if he didn't materialise.

That is my argument against ravgach point.

because Jesus eat does not necessarily mean he ressurected in a physical body, he was only able to eat because he materialised into a physical form.

If you say Jesus ressurected as a physical being because he eat, it means you are also saying 'The Lord' who eat with Abraham was also a physical being.


Neither 'The angel of the Lord' or Jesus were physical beings in those verses, they were spiritual beings who materialised in order to perform those actions.

SPIRITS DO NOT HAVE FLESH, BLOOD AND BONES. SPIRITS DO NOT EAT. Jesus showed he had flesh, blood and bones and ate in their presence to show equivocally that HE IS NOT A SPIRIT. If we go by all these your jargons, it means Jesus was fooling them. It means He 'materialized' according to you and deceived His disciples by showing fake evidences. I do not really know how you are so desperately eager to change a very glaring fact here.

haibe: Now tell me, if materialization is unscriptural, how did an immaterial God eat with abraham?

How did jacob wrestle with the lord?

Haibe, you may have woken up from your wrong side today. Why are u making these terrible mistakes today?

haibe: your argument is not sound here: because Jesus dinned with his disciples doesn't mean he ressurected a physical being, it means he materialised into a physical body.

If you say Jesus was in a ressurected in a physical body because he eat with his disciples then you are also saying God is a physical being for eating with abraham.

King James Version (KJV)
1And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3And said, My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
4Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:
5And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
6And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.
7And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.
8And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, AND THEY DID EAT.

So does that mean the Lord is a physical being because he eat with abraham?? No, he did materialise in order to do this.

God is a spirit (John 4:24)

So your argument here that Jesus was a physical being because he dinned and interacted with his disciples is very illogical.

If I were you, I will note the number 3 as it is stated in the account you showed as your proof that God 'ate'. ha ha ha... you are a very funny guy. You are wasting your talent, you should be a comedian. The visitors were 3 and the morsel of bread was 3. I think you should make intelligent conclusions.

haibe: yes spiritual body means he ressurected a spirit being, only spirit beings can have a spiritual body.

A spiritual body does not mean the same body now glorified, it means the physical body was changed to spiritual body or heavenly body.

If we were to go by your logic, it means Jesus went to heaven with a physical body with flesh and blood but the bible says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, so you are very wrong bro.

Is this the best logic you can assemble? lol. There is no correlation at all! I think you should always ask questions when in doubt instead of jumping into laughable conclusions.

haibe: @itsfact and @ravgach, you can let us continue our discussion on the existence of ghosts in the thread below, let's not derail this beautiful thread:

https://www.nairaland.com/1466539/ghosts-really-exist-according-bible

There is no need dissipating valuable time on a very simple issue. Let us look at that story again: Mark 6:48-50

And he saw that they were making headway painfully, for the wind was against them. And about the fourth watch of the night he came to them, walking on the sea. He meant to pass by them, but when they saw him walking on the sea they thought it was a ghost, and cried out, for they all saw him and were terrified. But immediately he spoke to them and said, “Take heart; it is I. Do not be afraid.”

They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

This place simply means that Jesus' disciples actually thought he was a demon or an evil spirit. The action of Jesus was a confidence building mechanism used to assure them he is the Christ. The disciples thought it could only be a demon that can walk on water. This terrified them but Jesus calmed them down

The issue now is: I personally think Jesus was telling them He was not an evil spirit or a demon. He believes evil spirits exist just the same way the Holy Spirit exist. But whatever you think Jesus was telling them He was not, then Jesus believes in it. What I mean is: If you think Jesus was telling them that ghost here means the spirit of the dead, then Jesus believes in it because he said He is not that.

The Bible does not teach that the spirit of the dead wonders about. When a man dies, his spirit goes back to God. He is either kept in Paradise in Heaven or in Hell waiting for resurrection and judgment. The spirit of the dead does not wonder about as you are subtly telling us.

haibe: Materialization is not any occultic word, it simply means the conversion of something into physical form, angels do materialize when they want to deliver a message to we humans, and they do this by converting into physical form first, so why are are you ascribing materialization to occult churches?

Luke 1:11
11 Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him,
standing at the right side of the altar of
incense. 12 When Zechariah SAW HIM, he was
startled and was gripped with fear.

How did zechariah see angel gabriel if he did not materialize, do you think man can see the angels in their spiritual body without them taking on physical flesh? No.

How does 'materialization' come up here? is this the first time an angel will be appearing and speaking with someone. Did Mary not meet and speak with an angel on the morning Jesus resurrected? This is a terminology used by the occult. It is highly unscriptural.

haibe: Did Jesus resurrect in a physical body or spiritual body?

He resurrected with in a spiritual body. Spiritual body does not mean he resurrected a spirit. A spiritual body means the same body now glorified. It was a recognizable body having the same features. You can see Him showing Thomas his pierced hands and sides and even asking him to put his hands in it. You also noticed that he had dinner with the disciples. He resurrected in the same body that was crucified. The difference is that, that body now has enhanced spiritual abilities, capabilities or features. Just the same body! So I can perfectly say that Jesus resurrected with his physical body having flesh and blood and bones but having more spiritual capabilities. "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have," (Luke 24:38-39).

JMAN05: itsfact. pls learn to separate the quotes and respond to my comment one by one. if you dont know how to do it, pls tell me let me teach you before you reapond to my comment. it makes for easy discussion.

Your double speak is becoming serious here. In one hand you categorically said Jesus resurrected a spirit in another you said he is not a spirit but materialized. Materialization is a terminology used by most 'occult churches'. Jesus did not 'materialize' he resurrected with an identifiable but glorious body.

The scripture did not tell us why in the other two appearances why Mary and the other disciples did not recognize Jesus. But if we are honest and go by the account in Luke 24, "their eyes were kept from recognizing him". The same account recorded in Mark where you are getting confused is not different from this. "After that he appeared in another form unto two of them..." This simply means they saw him differently meaning they could not recognize Him. By some divine operations, they were prevented from recognizing him. He was the same! There have been other occasions where the disciples were prevented from understanding the full import of Jesus' communication.

Being a quickening spirit does not in any way mean he is a spirit. It simply means, He is the harbinger of the new life, a life-giver or the originator of spiritual or eternal life. The spirit in the sense it was used, means it is a spiritual experience or event.