JMAN05:

another eg is electricity. when it is interrupted some say NEPA has taken light and when brot, they say NEPA had supplied power. they do not carry power and circulate it. just like electricity powers a radio, so does the spirit empower a lifeless body. why did you ignore that gen. 2:7?

God do not need you to transport the life force to him before he gives it back to a dead body before he rises. we were not living in heaven before God sends the spirit to quicken our bodies.

Jesus statement shows that he has hope in God that he will restore his life force. he didnt live it in a literal hand of God. and we know that Jesus never went to heaven prior his resurrection.

all who died and were resurrected even lazarus never told a story of heaven. of course if that is so, then there is nothing like resurrection again in the future 'cos all would have been in heaven.

JMAN05:

another eg is electricity. when it is interrupted some say NEPA has taken light and when brot, they say NEPA had supplied power. they do not carry power and circulate it. just like electricity powers a radio, so does the spirit empower a lifeless body. why did you ignore that gen. 2:7?

God do not need you to transport the life force to him before he gives it back to a dead body before he rises. we were not living in heaven before God sends the spirit to quicken our bodies.

Jesus statement shows that he has hope in God that he will restore his life force. he didnt live it in a literal hand of God. and we know that Jesus never went to heaven prior his resurrection.

all who died and were resurrected even lazarus never told a story of heaven. of course if that is so, then there is nothing like resurrection again in the future 'cos all would have been in heaven.

JMAN05:

Your stating that Paul has gone there is not the issue we are discussing. whether it was thru vision or what, he wasnt plain. wasnt Paul on earth while saying that thing in corinthians?

I am saying that that hebrew was referri.g to those alive not the dead whose spirit has gone to heaven. i think your statement above is in that line too.

the context is not referring to the dead, but the living. so it doesnt help ur point. are you in effect saying that they are existing both in heaven and on earth too?

JMAN05:

I am not saying everything is literal though. your eg of a man with exhausted fuel is never symbolic at all but literal. on the other hand the book of revelation is filled with symbolic statements. [size=15pt]something cant be symbolic and still be literal[/size]. oga what are you even talking about here?

the bible is not open to any interpretation that springs from your brain. never has altar been used as a symbol of protection, rather as a place of sacrifice.

to also tell you that you cant give any interpretation u like. the bible says the dead are conscious of nothing. and Jesus says he will call the dead up from the dead during his presence. how can you reconcile this with your immediate resurrection?

when all are in heaven, who will hear Jesus words and come up from the grave?

haibe: yes they are symbols depicting spiritual realities.

haibe:

okay that's true but some are actually symbols and symbols could be depicting spiritual realities.

haibe:

okay that's true but some are actually symbols and symbols could be depicting spiritual realities.

haibe:

ravgach you are still getting it wrong, what john saw had not happened, they were "mainly" revelations of things to come , there are things happening in heaven truly but visions are not material realities, they are real but it is just a revelation, it isn't actually happening that moment, if what john saw was actually happening then, then the world should have come to an end now.

JMAN05:

like I said above, those things are symbolic statements. Revelation is filled with that kind of symbolic statements. Dont even tell me to give you eg of them.

I ask you; how then did the blood of abel cry from the ground? can a blood cry? why didnt his soul in heaven do the crying?

The cry of abel's blood is a spiritual event. It is not physical because ordinarily a normal blood cannot speak but his because of his faith in God spoke. Let us look at how the scriptures captured it.

1. "Then the Lord said, "Why have you done this terrible thing? Your brother's blood is crying out to me from the ground..." Genesis 4:10.

2. "By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead".
Hebrews 11:4

3. "And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaks better things than that of Abel". Hebrews 12:24

This event was literal though spiritual. It is here compared to the blood of Jesus though Jesus' blood was adjudged better than his. Please understand that the blood was not speaking to man but to God. The Bible says "Deep calleth unto deep" The spirit hears the voice of the spirit. Man is not just an ordinary creature. He was made in God's likeness. Genesis 5:1 says "When God created mankind, he made them in the likeness of God".

No, it doesnt go to heaven, those are symbolic statements. all are in the grave until the presence of the lord. just like abel's blood was never crying out. inanimate things or things without a physical existence are often describe as if it does in revelation. it was written in signs.

As for hebrews you quoted. that place is not talking about those who have died rather it was talking about the living. Read from verse 22, you 'll see that he was referring to those he was writing that letter to.

haibe:

lol most churches have their short comings, one short coming in this church I attend is the concept of immortality of the soul, and since this isn't scriptural, I can't hold on to it.

If because you want to be under an organized bible based teaching you hold on to false doctrines, then you would have yourself to blame, it is good to join hands with believers but it isn't good to be tossed about by every wind of doctrine, I will advise you to do a study on this issue, I believe you will find out what you have been holding unto for years is false, the pastor or preacher leading you is also human, he makes mistakes, if all this pastors do not make mistakes, then it means every denomination will be teaching the same thing and would agree on every doctrine but its not the case.

haibe:

it is clearly a sect thing, it started from the catholic church and now to modern day christians.

the church i attend for example believes man has a separate body soul and spirit and that the body is what dies, the soul is the real you that never dies and the spirit is the breath of God, well at least they do not have the problem of identifying what the word spirit means ordinarily unlike you but still this doesn't make sense because the bible talks about souls that died, so just like you, this church I attend is confused about the nature of man, the only reason I remain in the church is because of their stand on holiness, nothing more, some of their teachings are unscriptural.

the idea of immortal soul/spirit is a doctrine that the bible doesn't teach, if man is immortal then he is God but he isn't, only God is immortal (1 tim 1:17, 6:16), man is only going to attain immortality later on (2 tim 1:10; romans 2:7).

haibe:


funny enough some other sects believe the soul is the real man that doesn't die, you all are confused. A man cannot be a man without his body, I have told you if we are to hold the assumption that ecclesiastes 12:7 is talking of a spirit being, then it means every one is going to heaven after death, simple! !

I believe there is heaven and there is hell bro but I do not believe hell is a different place from the lake of fire, the greek word translated hell is gehenna which means a place of burning and so hell became another name for lake of fire or burning fire, you are still yet to prove to me that there is a place called hell where sinners are kept and tormented temporarily till God's final judgment or a place where sinners go immediately they die, this is not scriptural.

haibe:

So you really think Jesus interacted with the dead moses and elijah? ? lol you are only showing your shallow knowledge of the scriptures.

haibe:

lol you just won't learn, how many times will I tell you elijah was simply taking to the sky, the word heaven is also used to denote the sky. you can see genesis 7:23, also mount carmel was also called heaven
(Amos 9:1-3), you can see the more reason why the sons of the prophet wanted to check the mountains for elijah.

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Genesis 1:1)

do you think the heaven used here is paradise or God's abode?? its simply the skies, and outer space and its this same heaven elijah was taken to, perhaps God then transported him to another location.
the heaven here could not have been paradise because the bible says he was "taken up" by a whirlwind, we know paradise is here on earth and so he could not have been taken to paradise.

Also ten years after elijah was taken from the people. After this wicked rule by the Jewish king, God chose elijah to write a letter and to send it to the king, the contents of the letter are found in 2 Chronicles 21:12-15. From the wording of the letter, it is clear that Elijah wrote it after these events had occurred, because he speaks of them as past events, and of the diseases as future , Two years after the king became diseased the king died, having reigned only eight short years (2 Chronicles 21:18-20). this makes it clear that elijah did not go to paradise but was infact still on earth.
Also hebrew 11:13, 39 made us know that the prophets including enoch actually died without receiving the promise.

haibe:

where the "spirit being" will go after it has gone to God in heaven? lol Solomon simply said the spirit goes to God, why does the question of where the spirit would go after it has gone to God arise? sincerely does this make sense to you, after a spirit goes to meet God, it then goes to hell again? you must be a joker.

that's why I said your assumption on this verse that the spirit used in the context is a spirit being would only bring out a folly.

If you want to rest on the assumption that the spirit used in this context is a spirit being, then you put yourself in a dilemma because it would be as good as saying hell doesn't exist.

So taking the spirit in this context as a spirit being would mean everybody would go to heaven when they die, there is no two ways about it.

JMAN05: @ravgach.

I think your problem will be solved by the question I asked earlier.

lifeless soul + the breath of life = living soul

living soul - the breath of life = lifeless soul

this formular is logical from gen. 2:7. anything against this is wrong. when Adam died, where did he go? gen. 3:19. that is a pure truth of whom we are.

the spirit you are talking about is that breath of life or life force. it is not a conscious person. when they bible says that the spirit goes back to the God who gave it, it is not in a literal sense, it only means that that person's prospect of living in the future rests with God.

On that revelation issue:

John describes a moving scene: “And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to have.” (Revelation 6:9) What is that? A sacrificial altar up in heaven? Yes! It is the first time that John mentions an altar. Already, though, he has described Jehovah on His throne, the surrounding cherubs, the glassy sea, the lamps, and the 24 elders carrying incense—all of these resembling features of the earthly tabernacle, Jehovah’s sanctuary in Israel. (Exodus 25:17, 18; 40:24-27, 30-32; 1 Chronicles 24:4) Should it, then, surprise us to find a symbolic altar of sacrifice also in heaven?—Exodus 40:29.

Underneath this altar are “the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to have.” What does this mean? These could not be disembodied souls—like those believed in by the pagan Greeks. (Genesis 2:7; Ezekiel 18:4) Rather, John knows that the soul, or life, is symbolized by the blood, and when the priests at the ancient Jewish tabernacle slaughtered a sacrificial animal, they sprinkled the blood “round about upon the altar” or poured it “at the base of the altar of burnt offering.” (Leviticus 3:2, 8, 13; 4:7; 17:6, 11, 12) Hence, the animal’s soul was closely identified with the altar of sacrifice. But why would the souls, or blood, of these particular servants of God be seen underneath a symbolic altar in heaven? Because their deaths are viewed as sacrificial.

Indeed, all those who are begotten as spirit sons of God die a sacrificial death. Because of the role they are to play in Jehovah’s heavenly Kingdom, it is God’s will that they renounce and sacrifice any hope of life everlasting on earth. In this respect, they submit to a sacrificial death in behalf of Jehovah’s sovereignty. (Philippians 3:8-11; compare 2:17.) This is true in a very real sense of those whom John saw under the altar. They are anointed ones who in their day were martyred for their zealous ministry in upholding Jehovah’s Word and sovereignty. Their “souls [were] slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work [mar·ty·ri′an] that they used to have.”

The scenario continues to unfold: “And they cried with a loud voice, saying: ‘Until when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth?’” (Revelation 6:10) How can their souls, or blood, cry out for vengeance, since the Bible shows that the dead are unconscious? (Ecclesiastes 9:5) Well, did not righteous Abel’s blood cry out after Cain murdered him? Jehovah then said to Cain: “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood is crying out to me from the ground.” (Genesis 4:10, 11; Hebrews 12:24) It was not that Abel’s blood was literally uttering words. Rather, Abel had died as an innocent victim, and justice called out for his murderer to be punished. Similarly, those Christian martyrs are innocent, and in justice they must be avenged. (Luke 18:7,  The cry for vengeance is loud because many thousands have thus died.—Compare Jeremiah 15:15, 16.

I ask: [size=16pt] who are those to rise from the grave during christ presence if they are already in heaven?[/size]

haibe: New International Version
As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead."


New Living Translation
As they went back down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead."


English Standard Version
And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, “Tell no one the vision, until the Son of Man is raised from the dead.”


New American Standard Bible
As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead."


King James Bible
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.


Holman Christian Standard Bible
As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, "Don't tell anyone about the vision until the Son of Man is raised from the dead."


International Standard Version
On their way down the mountain, Jesus ordered them, "Don't tell anyone about this vision until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead."


NET Bible
As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, "Do not tell anyone about the vision until the Son of Man is raised from the dead."


Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And as they descended from the mountain, Yeshua ordered them and he said to them, “Do not tell this vision in the presence of any man until The Son of Man will rise from the dead.”


GOD'S WORD® Translation
On their way down the mountain, Jesus ordered them, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen. Wait until the Son of Man has been brought back to life."


Jubilee Bible 2000
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is risen from the dead.


King James 2000 Bible
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.


American King JamesVersion
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.


American Standard Version
And as they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen from the dead.


Douay-Rheims Bible
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying: Tell the vision to no man, till the Son of man be risen from the dead.
Darby Bible Translation
And as they descended from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no one, until the Son of man berisen upfrom among the dead.


English Revised Version
And as they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen from the dead.


Webster's Bible Translation
And as they were descending the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be raised again from the dead.


Weymouth New Testament
As they were descending the mountain, Jesus laid a command upon them. "Tell no one," He said, "of the sight you have seen till the Son of Man has risen from among the dead."


World English Bible
As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Don't tell anyone what you saw, until the Son of Man has risen from the dead."


Young's Literal Translation
And as they are coming down from the mount, Jesus charged them, saying, 'Say to no one the vision, till the Son of Man out of the dead may rise.'

this are virtually all the english translations of the original greek bible and most of them called the event on the mount of transfiguration a "vision", so why would you sit there assuming it isn't a vision, why not do a little study on this word then, it is the same word translated in this verse that is translated in paul and Peter's vision, so why on earth should you think the event occured literally if you dont think the event of Peter's vision also occured literally?

you need to study bro, do not depend on just one translation, most of the translations that do not use the word vision, eg the NIV are translations that are done mainly to aid easy understanding and so cannot be as accurate as those that translate word for word.

haibe:

can you please show me a scripture that says when the old testament saints died they went to a place called paradise and when the sinners died they went to a place called hell, also show that this hell is a waiting place for the sinners till resurrection.

luke 23:43 doesn't prove your points at all, is this how you interpret scriptures? SMH!!

haibe:

it seems you aren't aware that the bible was written by the inspiration of the holy ghost and not men's knowledge, how do you think david was able to prophesy the suffering of Jesus? do you think it was by his wisdom? NO!!, the holy ghost spoke through all the writers of the scriptures and so your idea of Solomon not knowing until chapter 12 is just your personal heresy, the same holy ghost that spoke to Solomon in verse 9 is the one that spoke in ver2 12.

Now will the Holy ghost contradict itself in verse 12 and 9, NO!! the spirit talked about in verse 12 is the breath of God and not a spirit being but okay let me assume its talking about a spirit being in man.

the verse says "..and the spirit goes back to God who gave it"

Now if you want us to take the "spirit" in this context as a spirit being, then it means everyone including sinners would go back to God at death, so can you see the folly in this assumption?

haibe:

After the Transfiguration, Jesus said, while leaving the mountain, "Tell the vision to no man" (Matthew 17:9). Jesus calls the transfiguration a vision! A vision is not a material reality like you think but a supernatural picture observed by the eyes. The same Greek word for "vision" was used of Peter's vision of the unclean beasts being made clean (Acts 10:3,17,19; 11:5). They were not real but a supernatural picture. In the case of the transfiguration it was a prophetic vision which would take place in the future . Peter, James and John saw the Son of Man glorified in the Kingdom through a prophetic vision. Here areother examples:


Acts16:9, "And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us." This also is something that was to happen in the future .

Acts 18:9-10, "Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace: For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city." Jesus is telling Paul that, in the near
future , no man shall hurt him.

Visions should not be interpreted as literal bro. For example, look at Genesis 37:5-10. When Joseph dreamed that his "sheaf arose, and stood upright," and his brother’s sheaves bowed down to Joseph’s sheaf (verse 7), Or when Joseph dreamed that "the sun and the moon and the eleven stars" bowed down to Joseph (verse 9), is this literal? No. This was a prophetic vision of something that was to occur in the future ; when Joseph’s mother, father, and brothers would bow down to him as King.

Both Moses and Elijah were still in their graves, but in vision both they and Jesus were seen in glory of the resurrection, and event to which Moses and Elijah have not yet attained at that time (Hebrews 11:39). The vision was granted the disciples after Jesus had spoken of the glory of immortality in the coming Kingdom.

Please do not think Jesus literally communicated with the dead, you are ascribing a sin to him.

haibe: @ravach lazarus was dead for about 3 days or so, dont you think if he is in heaven already it would be cruel for Jesus to wake him up from heaven to continue suffering on earth and making a possibility of him committing sin and end up in hell even after he has been in heaven? It is not everyone that came back from the dead that had the opportunity to say all that they have seen. Some were also asked not to say. So do not let this confuse you.


It makes sense that after Lazarus was raised from the dead, he doesn’t share what he saw or experienced. He didn’t have anything to tell, except that once he was dead, and now he is alive! He didn’t experience hell or heaven. He was simply“sleeping” in his tomb. Peter on the Day of Pentecost said the same of King david. “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day…For David has not ascend into the heavens…(Acts 2:29, 34). Yes their bodies and tombs are there but their spirits are not there! I have showed you this several times with several scriptural passages.


if you noticed, you would see that the bible compares death to sleep more than fifty times. When we are asleep, we are unconscious; we are not aware of the passing of time or of what is going on around us. That is what death is like as well. The Bible says, “for the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing… their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished” (Ecclesiastes 9:5, psalm 146:4; 115:17). Many of these old testament prophets did not know about this until it was revealed to some of them. For instance after Solomon made this statement in Chapter 9 of Ecclesiastics, it was revealed to him in chapter 12 verse 7. They old testament prophets did not have complete knowledge as we do today.


So many other passage proves that a dead person is unconscious but that they would be ressurected at the end of time either to everlasting life or everlasting contempt.

haibe: Once again Elijah did not go to heaven unless you would be saying Jesus is a liar for saying "no man has ascended into heaven"

haibe: Again I will ask: what is the essence of God deporting us back to the earth if we can live with him in the third heaven?.

haibe: What the disciples saw on the mount of transfiguration is only a vision, Jesus did not speak literally with moses and elijah unless He would be guilty of necromancy which God has condemned.

haibe: it seems you dont understand what I mean that the spirit is not a "separate entity from the body, I don't mean the spirit cannot be separated from the body but that the spirit is not a person, and therefore cannot be existing as a separate entity or individual from the body.

haibe: EW bullinger says: So effectually has Satan's lie, "thou shalt not surely die", succeeded and accomplished its purpose that, though the Lord Jesus said "I will come again and receive you unto Myself", Christendom says, with one voice, "No! Lord. Thou needest not come for me: I will die and come to Thee". Thus the blessed hope of resurrection and the coming of the Lord have been well nigh blotted out from the belief of the Churches; and the promise of the Lord been made of none effect by the ravages of Tradition.

I think bullinger is just right about his words above, christendom has decided to see death as a means by which they go to heaven thereby making the power of resurrection meaningless and taking away the joy of ressurection which the early apostles had.

[color=#990000]EW Bullinger is making a great mistake by this statement. It is not all statements you take line, hook and sinker. Satan was telling Eve in this Bible book of Genesis that you are quoting that they will live forever physically on earth if they ate the fruit. Satan was actually telling them the truth but from the back door. God had intended man to live forever in his sinless state. Satan used this true information to make man sin against God and man fell for his lies. The truth is that spirits do not die. As spirit beings, we do not die. this is how God made us. It is our spirits that will give account of our lives not the physical body Proverbs 20:27. Even though our outward man perish, our inner man (our spirits do not) and this is a fact of scripture. This is why there are spirits of the saints in heaven as we write these words Hebrews 12:23. These men in heaven now will be resurrected on the last day. Their spirits will return with the power of God and enter their various bodies wherever they are no matter the years and centuries they may have died and their bodies will be translated to be like the bodies of angels.


[/color]
In Phil. 2:27, we read that Epaphraditus "was sick nigh unto death; but God had mercy on him"..So that it was mercy to preserve Epaphraditus from death. This could hardly be called "mercy" if death were the "gate of glory", according to popular tradition. i mean it won't make sense to think God had mercy on him if he would be going to heaven straight after death.

In 2 Cor. 1:10-11, it was deliverance of no ordinary kind when Paul himself was "delivered from so great a death" which called for corresponding greatness of thanksgiving for God's answer to their prayers on his behalf. Moreover, he trusted that God would still deliver him. It is clear from 2 Cor. 5:4 that Paul did not wish for death; for he distinctly says "not for that he would be unclothed, but clothed upon (i.e. in resurrection and "change" that mortality might be swallowed up of LIFE"; not of death. This is what he was so "earnestly desiring"

haibe: @ravgach, I have read all your posts and I still think you are missing something.

firstly you are right that the spirit is not mere breath, it is infact through our spirit we are able to connect with God but neither is the spirit a separate entity from the body that can exist alone, man was created with a body and a spirit in order to live, unlike God who exists as a spirit being. @Haibe: If we are right to say that man's breath is not the same as his spirit, and the scriptures confirms that the spirit of man leaves the body at death, is it not a contradiction for you to still hold on to your belief that the spirit and the body are not separate entities despite convincing evidences from the Bible? Are you holding on to your tradition or the Bible? I will suggest you let go of whatever beliefs or teachings you may have received in the past and embrace the written Word of God.

in the case of man, he doesn't have a spirit that can exist like that of God because he is not created a spirit being but a human being, I think the confusion may come from the word spirit, the greek word translated spirit is "pneuma" which can mean breath, wind or air, it is also used to explain spiritual beings but as used in man it means breath, however the bible makes us understand that the spirit isn't just breath but that this breath/spirit is the candle of God in man, in order words it can be seen as what reveals a man to God but this doesn't make it a separate entity from man himself, without the spirit the body cannot function, also without the body the spirit cannot function, it goes back to God who gave it. if the spirit in man can live as a separate entity from its body or can go to heaven immediately after death, then I think the idea of resurrection is not necessary, what is the essence of resurrection to God if I am already with him in heaven? or why is it described as a joyous event if I am already with God in heaven, again why is described as the blessed hope of believers if I am with God already?
think of it. My brother, you are not an authority in the greek language. You will be missing it if you try to rely too much on an evidence you are not very familiar with to support whatever position you may have taken. You are somehow still holding to your 'breath' theory as 'spirit'. Please discard this completely as it is not true. You have seen it very clearly too. Two things are very clear:
1. When a man dies, his body is buried or done away with depending on how he died.
2. The spirit goes back to God. This is very clear.
3. There is a separation between the body in the grave and the spirit that has gone back to God
4. If the body is in the grave and the spirit with God, there is a clear separation. There is no argument about this.
5. There is therefore separation as you can see.

The issue of resurrection, is a separate phase in God's program. That a man's spirit has gone to heaven does not mean it will not be resurrected again. I have showed you from scripture that the spirit of the dead person returns at resurrection to the lifeless body and it will come out of the grave just the same way Jesus' resurrection took place. I Kings 17:19-21. But this time, the body will no longer be like the normal human body. It will be translated, transformed, changed like that of the angels. "Behold, I tell you a mystery...we will all be changed..." 1 Corinthians 15:51. Going to heaven now will not in any way impede resurrection. This is what we read from the Bible. When Elijah went to 'heaven' (paradise) and Moses died and buried (went to paradise), did you not read about their having conversation with Jesus several centuries after? Matthew 17:1-13.

After the first and second resurrection, the great tribulation, the millennial reign of Christ and the final judgement, those with God in heaven will return and live in the world to come (new heaven and new earth) Jude 14-15; Luke 19:17-19; Revelation 21:3-5.

This issue of going to heaven after is a reality. It has been seen clearly in the scriptures it should not challenge the minds of believers.


Jesus made it clear in several passages that he is coming for us, no where did he say we are coming to meet him.

" and if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF; that where I am, there ye may be also" (John 14:3)

"ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, AND COME AGAIN UNTO YOU..." (John 14:28)

Also Jesus did not promise us the third heaven but eternal life or resurrection to life to paradise"

"whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life and I WILL RAISE HIM UP ON THE LAST DAY" (John 6:54)


"and I give them eternal life; and they shall never perish.." (John 10:28)

"..that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life" (John 3:16)

the apostles made it clear also that the resurrection is the hope of them that are asleep in Christ. (1 Corinthians 15:16-20)

JMAN05:

Thanks for your answer. however, the answer is not consistent with the portion i quoted. answer the questions as I posred above. I never said it was ordinary breath.