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Religion / Re: Do We Go Straight To Heaven After Death, Or After The Resurrection? by ravgach: 8:46pm On Sep 27, 2013
JMAN05:

another eg is electricity. when it is interrupted some say NEPA has taken light and when brot, they say NEPA had supplied power. they do not carry power and circulate it. just like electricity powers a radio, so does the spirit empower a lifeless body. why did you ignore that gen. 2:7?

God do not need you to transport the life force to him before he gives it back to a dead body before he rises. we were not living in heaven before God sends the spirit to quicken our bodies.

Jesus statement shows that he has hope in God that he will restore his life force. he didnt live it in a literal hand of God. and we know that Jesus never went to heaven prior his resurrection.

all who died and were resurrected even lazarus never told a story of heaven. of course if that is so, then there is nothing like resurrection again in the future 'cos all would have been in heaven.

Please do not compare our lives with epileptic electricity, radio and other household appliances. There is no comparison at all! There is no life in the body at all. The life is in the spirit. The body is a molded sand that houses the spirit. Once the spirit is out the body goes back to its original form. The spirit is the main thing. That spirit is a personality. It does not die. It was created after the image of God. Spirits do not die. That is why we cannot die.

That lazarus did not tell a story about heaven does not make heaven non existent. He is not the only one that rose from the dead and never said a word about heaven. Apostle Paul is not also the only one that told us stories about heaven. The testimony of two or three substantiates the truth.
Religion / Re: Do We Go Straight To Heaven After Death, Or After The Resurrection? by ravgach: 8:46pm On Sep 27, 2013
JMAN05:

another eg is electricity. when it is interrupted some say NEPA has taken light and when brot, they say NEPA had supplied power. they do not carry power and circulate it. just like electricity powers a radio, so does the spirit empower a lifeless body. why did you ignore that gen. 2:7?

God do not need you to transport the life force to him before he gives it back to a dead body before he rises. we were not living in heaven before God sends the spirit to quicken our bodies.

Jesus statement shows that he has hope in God that he will restore his life force. he didnt live it in a literal hand of God. and we know that Jesus never went to heaven prior his resurrection.

all who died and were resurrected even lazarus never told a story of heaven. of course if that is so, then there is nothing like resurrection again in the future 'cos all would have been in heaven.

Please do not compare our lives with epileptic electricity, radio and other household appliances. There is no comparison at all! There is no life in the body at all. The life is in the spirit. The body is a molded sand that houses the spirit. Once the spirit is out the body goes back to its original form. The spirit is the main thing. That spirit is a personality. It does not die. It was created after the image of God. Spirits do not die. That is why we cannot die.

That lazarus did not tell a story about heaven does not make heaven non existent. He is not the only one that rose from the dead and never said a word about heaven. Apostle Paul is not also the only one that told us stories about heaven. The testimony of two or three substantiates the truth.
Religion / Re: Do We Go Straight To Heaven After Death, Or After The Resurrection? by ravgach: 8:36pm On Sep 27, 2013
[quote author=JMAN05]

Psalm 146:4 KJV
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

the emphases here is that the spirit goes back to the ground. are we now to say that a conscious spirit lives in the ground? this is just like the air that lives a tyre when it bursts.

"THE EMPHASES HERE IS THAT THE SPIRIT GOES BACK TO THE GROUND" Is this statement of yours a statement of truth? Do you have a single Bible passage to support this assertion? If you are in doubt like Solomon until he was inspired in Ecc. 12 why not allow the Spirit of God to assist you? Check out Solomon's doubts like yours before he was inspired:

"All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. WHO KNOWS IF THE HUMAN SPIRIT RISES UPWARD AND IF THE SPIRIT OF THE ANIMAL GOES DOWN INTO THE EARTH?” Ecclesiastes 3:20-21

Then check out his view when he was inspired:

"And the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it". Ecclesiastes 12:7
Religion / Re: Do We Go Straight To Heaven After Death, Or After The Resurrection? by ravgach: 8:25pm On Sep 27, 2013
JMAN05:

Your stating that Paul has gone there is not the issue we are discussing. whether it was thru vision or what, he wasnt plain. wasnt Paul on earth while saying that thing in corinthians?

I am saying that that hebrew was referri.g to those alive not the dead whose spirit has gone to heaven. i think your statement above is in that line too.

the context is not referring to the dead, but the living. so it doesnt help ur point. are you in effect saying that they are existing both in heaven and on earth too?

That Paul has been there before is an issue because he is giving first hand information about the place. He gave details of what you find in heaven and one of the main things you find there, is the SPIRITS OF RIGHTEOUS MEN MADE PERFECT. The Spirits of the saints who have gone before us. In another place, he called them "The great Crowd of Witnesses". That was exactly what John saw too in Revelation 6:9-11. Yes Paul was still here on earth when he was giving the teachings to equally living saints of Hebrew origin.

What I am point out here or stressing is the fact that as we write these things here, there are perfected spirits of departed saints in heaven.
Religion / Re: Do We Go Straight To Heaven After Death, Or After The Resurrection? by ravgach: 6:42pm On Sep 27, 2013
JMAN05:

I am not saying everything is literal though. your eg of a man with exhausted fuel is never symbolic at all but literal. on the other hand the book of revelation is filled with symbolic statements. [size=15pt]something cant be symbolic and still be literal[/size]. oga what are you even talking about here?

the bible is not open to any interpretation that springs from your brain. never has altar been used as a symbol of protection, rather as a place of sacrifice.

to also tell you that you cant give any interpretation u like. the bible says the dead are conscious of nothing. and Jesus says he will call the dead up from the dead during his presence. how can you reconcile this with your immediate resurrection?

when all are in heaven, who will hear Jesus words and come up from the grave?


A literal event can also have spiritual or other significance. A literal event can symbolize other things that has nothing to do with it physically.

Literally, an alter is a place of sacrifice what else can it be literally? But it also symbolizes a place of prayer, a place of power, a place of protection and a place of refuge. There is no personal interpretation here!

When the Bible says "the dead are conscious of nothing" it is a simple thing. When the Spirit leaves in line with Ecc. 12:7, the body returns to dust and is unconscious until resurrection. There is no contradiction in that statement at all.

On the resurrection morning, the spirit of God will empower the spirit of the dead and cause it to locate the lifeless body. The voice of the archangel accompanying the spirit's return will be heard clearly by the dead. This is a miracle. It will be done by God Himself. It should not be a difficult thing at all. "King Agrippa, why should any of you consider it incredible that God raises the dead"? Acts 26:7-8

An ordinary prophet like Ezekiel did it:

Ezekiel 37:7-10

"So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and suddenly a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to bone. Indeed, as I looked, the sinews and the flesh came upon them, and the skin covered them over; but there was no breath in them.

Also He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live.” So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army".
Religion / Re: Do We Go Straight To Heaven After Death, Or After The Resurrection? by ravgach: 6:04pm On Sep 27, 2013
haibe: yes they are symbols depicting spiritual realities.

Okey, can you now please point out and explain to the house the symbols in the following passages and their spiritual realities?:

1. Hebrews 12:22-24

"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the
heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general
assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the
Judge of all, and to THE SPIRITS OF THE RIGHTEOUS made perfect, and
to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which
speaks better than the blood of Abel.…"

KEY WORDS:

1. Mount Zion - Heavenly Jerusalem
2. Myriads of Angels
3. General Assembly (The elders etc.) - The Church
4. God, Judge of all
5. The Spirits of Just Men
6. Jesus Christ
7, The Blood of Jesus

2. 2 Corinthian 12:2-4

"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether IN THE BODY I do not know,
or OUT OF THE BODY I do not know, God knows-- such a man was caught up to the THIRD
HEAVEN. And I know how such a man-- whether in the body or apart from the body I do
not know, GOD KNOWS--was caught up into PARADISE and heard INEXPRESSIBLE WORDS, which
a MAN IS NOT PERMITTED to speak.…"

KEY WORDS:

1. In the Body
2. Out of the Body
3. Third Heaven
4. God Knows
5. Paradise
6. Inexpressible Words
7. Man Not Permitted to Speak
Religion / Re: Do We Go Straight To Heaven After Death, Or After The Resurrection? by ravgach: 4:39pm On Sep 27, 2013
haibe:

okay that's true but some are actually symbols and symbols could be depicting spiritual realities.

So shall we take it that we have all agreed that the following scripture, which has been under consideration, is a spiritual reality:

Revelation 6:9-11

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?..."

You must also please note that the Book of Revelation is NOT all about future events. It is also about things that have happened or are happening as at the time of the writing of John.

Revelation 1:1 "The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place".

Revelation 1:19 “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later".
Religion / Re: Do We Go Straight To Heaven After Death, Or After The Resurrection? by ravgach: 4:20pm On Sep 27, 2013
haibe:

okay that's true but some are actually symbols and symbols could be depicting spiritual realities.

So we all agree that the following scripture, which has been under consideration is a spiritual reality:

Revelation 6:9-11

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?..."
Religion / Re: Do We Go Straight To Heaven After Death, Or After The Resurrection? by ravgach: 2:58pm On Sep 27, 2013
haibe:

ravgach you are still getting it wrong, what john saw had not happened, they were "mainly" revelations of things to come , there are things happening in heaven truly but visions are not material realities, they are real but it is just a revelation, it isn't actually happening that moment, if what john saw was actually happening then, then the world should have come to an end now.

Whether they are things that has happened or that will eventually happen is not material at this time. The point I am making is that they are spiritual realities and not symbolisms.
Religion / Re: Do We Go Straight To Heaven After Death, Or After The Resurrection? by ravgach: 2:51pm On Sep 27, 2013
JMAN05:

like I said above, those things are symbolic statements. Revelation is filled with that kind of symbolic statements. Dont even tell me to give you eg of them.

I ask you; how then did the blood of abel cry from the ground? can a blood cry? why didnt his soul in heaven do the crying?

The cry of abel's blood is a spiritual event. It is not physical because ordinarily a normal blood cannot speak but his because of his faith in God spoke. Let us look at how the scriptures captured it.

1. "Then the Lord said, "Why have you done this terrible thing? Your brother's blood is crying out to me from the ground..." Genesis 4:10.

2. "By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead".
Hebrews 11:4

3. "And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaks better things than that of Abel". Hebrews 12:24

This event was literal though spiritual. It is here compared to the blood of Jesus though Jesus' blood was adjudged better than his. Please understand that the blood was not speaking to man but to God. The Bible says "Deep calleth unto deep" The spirit hears the voice of the spirit. Man is not just an ordinary creature. He was made in God's likeness. Genesis 5:1 says "When God created mankind, he made them in the likeness of God".


No, it doesnt go to heaven, those are symbolic statements. all are in the grave until the presence of the lord. just like abel's blood was never crying out. inanimate things or things without a physical existence are often describe as if it does in revelation. it was written in signs.

As for hebrews you quoted. that place is not talking about those who have died rather it was talking about the living. Read from verse 22, you 'll see that he was referring to those he was writing that letter to.

Please let us look at the quote again:

Hebrews 12:22-24

"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the
heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general
assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the
Judge of all, and to THE SPIRITS OF THE RIGHTEOUS made perfect, and
to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which
speaks better than the blood of Abel.…"

This passage brought out the following:

1. Mount Zion - Heavenly Jerusalem
2. Myriads of Angels
3. General Assembly (The elders etc.) - The Church
4. God, Judge of all
5. The Spirits of Just Men
6. Jesus Christ
7, The Blood of Jesus

Yes this this is Paul's address to the Christian Jews. He was comparing the old and the new covenants using the mountain where Moses received the covenant and Mount Zion the Heavenly Jerusalem. He was telling them that Mount Zion was welcoming unlike the that mountain. Paul took time to describe to them the Mount Zion - The Heavenly Jerusalem. Please do not forget that he has gone there while still alive:

2 Corinthian 12:2-4

"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know,
or out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a man was caught up to the third
heaven. And I know how such a man-- whether in the body or apart from the body I do
not know, God knows--was caught up into PARADISE and heard inexpressible words, which
a man is not permitted to speak.…"


So saying that this was strictly an address to those he was speaking to strictly without reference to heaven and those in it is to say it mildly, incorrect.
Religion / Re: Do We Go Straight To Heaven After Death, Or After The Resurrection? by ravgach: 1:54pm On Sep 27, 2013
how could my statement result to the bolded?

Nothing goes to God after death, that statement only means that that person's future life prospect rests with God.

If we take it to mean literal, why then does the spirit go to the ground?

Psalm 146:4 KJV
"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."

That "Nothing goes to God after death" is not a statement of truth. Something goes to God after we die - our spirits Ecc. 12:7; Luke 23:46; Acts 7:59

The above quote in Psalm 146:4 "His breath goeth forth..." is what literally happens before a man dies. Some refer to it as "giving up the ghost"
Religion / Re: Do We Go Straight To Heaven After Death, Or After The Resurrection? by ravgach: 1:19pm On Sep 27, 2013
[quote author=JMAN05]

the book of revelation is written in signs, so you dont take everything literal.

if we call it literal, then what sense does it make for the souls to be underneath the altar? is the reward of saints to be under the altar?

The Book of revelation is both literal and symbolic. Not everything is symbolic. The subject under consideration in Revelation 6:10-11 literal though spiritual. It was an exposition. A peep into eternity. A revelation. A spiritual reality. It is not symbolic in essence at all. If you call it symbolic, you may be right in a way because everything in life is actually symbolic. A literal event can also be taken symbolically. For instance, the alter though literal, symbolizes protection, power. I will give you an example of what I mean: A man comes out of his house, enters his car and drives out. The car later stopped on the road because the gas has been exhausted. Now, this event is literal but it could as well be a symbol of an unprepared life. It could mean that we should always be vigilant. The book of revelation started with the story of John the Beloved being in the SPIRIT ON THE LORD'S DAY. What he saw were things that happened in the spiritual realm but real. As I write these words now, there are things happening in Heaven. Those things are spiritual events but they are real.

The saints are not being rewarded as it is not time for reward. They are there in heaven in spirit. The alter like I said is a symbol of protection. They are being protected under the power of the Almighty until the day of resurrection.
Religion / Re: Do We Go Straight To Heaven After Death, Or After The Resurrection? by ravgach: 2:10pm On Sep 26, 2013
haibe:

lol most churches have their short comings, one short coming in this church I attend is the concept of immortality of the soul, and since this isn't scriptural, I can't hold on to it.

If because you want to be under an organized bible based teaching you hold on to false doctrines, then you would have yourself to blame, it is good to join hands with believers but it isn't good to be tossed about by every wind of doctrine, I will advise you to do a study on this issue, I believe you will find out what you have been holding unto for years is false, the pastor or preacher leading you is also human, he makes mistakes, if all this pastors do not make mistakes, then it means every denomination will be teaching the same thing and would agree on every doctrine but its not the case.

Is the above reason enough excuse to add to the confusion? LOL Well, let us pray that God will enlighten us all and give us the wisdom to seek the truth at all cost. I hope one day we will not see: Jehovah's Witnesses Pentecostal Revival Ministries Inc. LOL

Immortality of the soul is a clear and crystal teaching of the Bible as you have seen it. It needs understanding not argument.
Religion / Re: Do We Go Straight To Heaven After Death, Or After The Resurrection? by ravgach: 1:49pm On Sep 26, 2013
haibe:

it is clearly a sect thing, it started from the catholic church and now to modern day christians.

the church i attend for example believes man has a separate body soul and spirit and that the body is what dies, the soul is the real you that never dies and the spirit is the breath of God, well at least they do not have the problem of identifying what the word spirit means ordinarily unlike you but still this doesn't make sense because the bible talks about souls that died, so just like you, this church I attend is confused about the nature of man, the only reason I remain in the church is because of their stand on holiness, nothing more, some of their teachings are unscriptural.

the idea of immortal soul/spirit is a doctrine that the bible doesn't teach, if man is immortal then he is God but he isn't, only God is immortal (1 tim 1:17, 6:16), man is only going to attain immortality later on (2 tim 1:10; romans 2:7).

You are not helping yourself my brother.

I will advise you to take time and go thru the trail of this discourse. You will discover you have been seriously inconsistent with the things you hold on to as your personal beliefs. I respect your beliefs though but you look like someone that do not want to be under a Bible-Based teaching. You rather prefer to pick and select from the pool of errors flying here and there and in the process getting more and more confused. I will advise you to open up your mind and allow your church, the present church you spoke about, to teach you. Do not feel you know it all. Otherwise you be a hindrance not only to yourself but as many as you may come across.
Religion / Re: Do We Go Straight To Heaven After Death, Or After The Resurrection? by ravgach: 12:43pm On Sep 26, 2013
haibe:


funny enough some other sects believe the soul is the real man that doesn't die, you all are confused. A man cannot be a man without his body, I have told you if we are to hold the assumption that ecclesiastes 12:7 is talking of a spirit being, then it means every one is going to heaven after death, simple! !

I believe there is heaven and there is hell bro but I do not believe hell is a different place from the lake of fire, the greek word translated hell is gehenna which means a place of burning and so hell became another name for lake of fire or burning fire, you are still yet to prove to me that there is a place called hell where sinners are kept and tormented temporarily till God's final judgment or a place where sinners go immediately they die, this is not scriptural.

It is not a sect thing, this an undeniable, proven and clearly literal truth from the Bible that has been handed down to you in this forum. It is up to you to chose what you want to believe. But the truth remains constant.
Religion / Re: Do We Go Straight To Heaven After Death, Or After The Resurrection? by ravgach: 12:37pm On Sep 26, 2013
haibe:

So you really think Jesus interacted with the dead moses and elijah? ? lol you are only showing your shallow knowledge of the scriptures.

DO YOU STILL HOLD ON TO YOUR BELIEF THAT TRANSFIGURTION IS A VISION? If you do not, then why are u asking this type of question? and if you still do, I do not have a solution to your unbelief! If you do not understand certain spiritual events, why not ask your pastor or some other people who know more than you. If there was a transfiguration and Moses and Elijah appeared there literally, then it means they are not seen as 'dead' people by God. It means there was a temporal release for them to come and have discussions with Christ for the purpose of that transfiguration - The Redemption Plan. It should not surprise you because they actually came out physically when Christ resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept (died) arose, and came out of the graves..."
Religion / Re: Do We Go Straight To Heaven After Death, Or After The Resurrection? by ravgach: 12:11pm On Sep 26, 2013
haibe:

lol you just won't learn, how many times will I tell you elijah was simply taking to the sky, the word heaven is also used to denote the sky. you can see genesis 7:23, also mount carmel was also called heaven
(Amos 9:1-3), you can see the more reason why the sons of the prophet wanted to check the mountains for elijah.

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Genesis 1:1)

do you think the heaven used here is paradise or God's abode?? its simply the skies, and outer space and its this same heaven elijah was taken to, perhaps God then transported him to another location.
the heaven here could not have been paradise because the bible says he was "taken up" by a whirlwind, we know paradise is here on earth and so he could not have been taken to paradise.

Also ten years after elijah was taken from the people. After this wicked rule by the Jewish king, God chose elijah to write a letter and to send it to the king, the contents of the letter are found in 2 Chronicles 21:12-15. From the wording of the letter, it is clear that Elijah wrote it after these events had occurred, because he speaks of them as past events, and of the diseases as future , Two years after the king became diseased the king died, having reigned only eight short years (2 Chronicles 21:18-20). this makes it clear that elijah did not go to paradise but was infact still on earth.
Also hebrew 11:13, 39 made us know that the prophets including enoch actually died without receiving the promise.
lol Ok, lets wait for scientists to search mars and other planets, may be they can find him there LOL. We should not try to win an argument by all means.
My brother, we are not in primary school here.
1. In the skies, in the outer space...perhaps God transported him to another location... PERHAPS??
2. Elijah did not go to paradise...in fact still on earth??
Religion / Re: Do We Go Straight To Heaven After Death, Or After The Resurrection? by ravgach: 11:38am On Sep 26, 2013
haibe:

where the "spirit being" will go after it has gone to God in heaven? lol Solomon simply said the spirit goes to God, why does the question of where the spirit would go after it has gone to God arise? sincerely does this make sense to you, after a spirit goes to meet God, it then goes to hell again? you must be a joker.

that's why I said your assumption on this verse that the spirit used in the context is a spirit being would only bring out a folly.

If you want to rest on the assumption that the spirit used in this context is a spirit being, then you put yourself in a dilemma because it would be as good as saying hell doesn't exist.

So taking the spirit in this context as a spirit being would mean everybody would go to heaven when they die, there is no two ways about it.

You are still hooked on to this your Spirit = Breath theory. This is the danger of romancing error. It hardly leaves the victim.

There is Heaven and Hell. When the spirit reports to God, He asks the angels to assign the individual soul his portion. This should not be very difficult to understand.

The spirit of man is the REAL MAN. It is therefore a personality. A real, visible and distinguishable personality. Our physical body is the HOUSE OF THE SPIRIT. When we die, the body becomes lifeless and the spirit returns to God.
Religion / Re: Do We Go Straight To Heaven After Death, Or After The Resurrection? by ravgach: 11:20am On Sep 26, 2013
JMAN05: @ravgach.

I think your problem will be solved by the question I asked earlier.

lifeless soul + the breath of life = living soul

living soul - the breath of life = lifeless soul

this formular is logical from gen. 2:7. anything against this is wrong. when Adam died, where did he go? gen. 3:19. that is a pure truth of whom we are.

the spirit you are talking about is that breath of life or life force. it is not a conscious person. when they bible says that the spirit goes back to the God who gave it, it is not in a literal sense, it only means that that person's prospect of living in the future rests with God.

On that revelation issue:

John describes a moving scene: “And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to have.” (Revelation 6:9) What is that? A sacrificial altar up in heaven? Yes! It is the first time that John mentions an altar. Already, though, he has described Jehovah on His throne, the surrounding cherubs, the glassy sea, the lamps, and the 24 elders carrying incense—all of these resembling features of the earthly tabernacle, Jehovah’s sanctuary in Israel. (Exodus 25:17, 18; 40:24-27, 30-32; 1 Chronicles 24:4) Should it, then, surprise us to find a symbolic altar of sacrifice also in heaven?—Exodus 40:29.

Underneath this altar are “the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to have.” What does this mean? These could not be disembodied souls—like those believed in by the pagan Greeks. (Genesis 2:7; Ezekiel 18:4) Rather, John knows that the soul, or life, is symbolized by the blood, and when the priests at the ancient Jewish tabernacle slaughtered a sacrificial animal, they sprinkled the blood “round about upon the altar” or poured it “at the base of the altar of burnt offering.” (Leviticus 3:2, 8, 13; 4:7; 17:6, 11, 12) Hence, the animal’s soul was closely identified with the altar of sacrifice. But why would the souls, or blood, of these particular servants of God be seen underneath a symbolic altar in heaven? Because their deaths are viewed as sacrificial.

Indeed, all those who are begotten as spirit sons of God die a sacrificial death. Because of the role they are to play in Jehovah’s heavenly Kingdom, it is God’s will that they renounce and sacrifice any hope of life everlasting on earth. In this respect, they submit to a sacrificial death in behalf of Jehovah’s sovereignty. (Philippians 3:8-11; compare 2:17.) This is true in a very real sense of those whom John saw under the altar. They are anointed ones who in their day were martyred for their zealous ministry in upholding Jehovah’s Word and sovereignty. Their “souls [were] slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work [mar·ty·ri′an] that they used to have.”

The scenario continues to unfold: “And they cried with a loud voice, saying: ‘Until when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth?’” (Revelation 6:10) How can their souls, or blood, cry out for vengeance, since the Bible shows that the dead are unconscious? (Ecclesiastes 9:5) Well, did not righteous Abel’s blood cry out after Cain murdered him? Jehovah then said to Cain: “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood is crying out to me from the ground.” (Genesis 4:10, 11; Hebrews 12:24) It was not that Abel’s blood was literally uttering words. Rather, Abel had died as an innocent victim, and justice called out for his murderer to be punished. Similarly, those Christian martyrs are innocent, and in justice they must be avenged. (Luke 18:7, cool The cry for vengeance is loud because many thousands have thus died.—Compare Jeremiah 15:15, 16.

I ask: [size=16pt] who are those to rise from the grave during christ presence if they are already in heaven?[/size]

Your explanation looks convincing if one is a novice to the Scriptures. You have just added another twist to the debate. You have just told us now that:
1. Soul means blood. It was the blood of saints that was transported to heaven
2. Breath also means blood. When the Bible say 'the spirit returns to God who have it. It means the blood returns to God
3. It was also the blood that was given robes and asked to wait until others join them Revelation 6:10-11
4. The record in Hebrews 12:22-24 is also the blood of the saints. Is it?
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the
heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general
assembly
and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the
Judge of all, and to THE SPIRITS OF THE RIGHTEOUS made perfect, and
to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which
speaks better than the blood of Abel.…"
5. There is a tacit agreement that at least something goes to heaven now - the blood. LOL
Religion / Re: Do We Go Straight To Heaven After Death, Or After The Resurrection? by ravgach: 10:56am On Sep 26, 2013
haibe: New International Version
As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead."


New Living Translation
As they went back down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead."


English Standard Version
And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, “Tell no one the vision, until the Son of Man is raised from the dead.”


New American Standard Bible
As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead."


King James Bible
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.


Holman Christian Standard Bible
As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, "Don't tell anyone about the vision until the Son of Man is raised from the dead."


International Standard Version
On their way down the mountain, Jesus ordered them, "Don't tell anyone about this vision until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead."


NET Bible
As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, "Do not tell anyone about the vision until the Son of Man is raised from the dead."


Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And as they descended from the mountain, Yeshua ordered them and he said to them, “Do not tell this vision in the presence of any man until The Son of Man will rise from the dead.”


GOD'S WORD® Translation
On their way down the mountain, Jesus ordered them, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen. Wait until the Son of Man has been brought back to life."


Jubilee Bible 2000
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is risen from the dead.


King James 2000 Bible
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.


American King JamesVersion
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.


American Standard Version
And as they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen from the dead.


Douay-Rheims Bible
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying: Tell the vision to no man, till the Son of man be risen from the dead.
Darby Bible Translation
And as they descended from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no one, until the Son of man berisen upfrom among the dead.


English Revised Version
And as they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen from the dead.


Webster's Bible Translation
And as they were descending the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be raised again from the dead.


Weymouth New Testament
As they were descending the mountain, Jesus laid a command upon them. "Tell no one," He said, "of the sight you have seen till the Son of Man has risen from among the dead."


World English Bible
As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Don't tell anyone what you saw, until the Son of Man has risen from the dead."


Young's Literal Translation
And as they are coming down from the mount, Jesus charged them, saying, 'Say to no one the vision, till the Son of Man out of the dead may rise.'

this are virtually all the english translations of the original greek bible and most of them called the event on the mount of transfiguration a "vision", so why would you sit there assuming it isn't a vision, why not do a little study on this word then, it is the same word translated in this verse that is translated in paul and Peter's vision, so why on earth should you think the event occured literally if you dont think the event of Peter's vision also occured literally?

you need to study bro, do not depend on just one translation, most of the translations that do not use the word vision, eg the NIV are translations that are done mainly to aid easy understanding and so cannot be as accurate as those that translate word for word.

My bros, these are translations and good a thing not all of them called it vision. It was not a vision but transfiguration. They were describing the transfiguration. They were not describing a vision. In describing an event or situation, we usually use the closest thing to it to make our hearers or reader get home to what we are saying. For instance if I am describing a football event, I can tell you that Pele shot at goal six times in the match. I can go further to say he kicked the ball like a star.
1. I am describing the kicking of a football and I used the word SHOT. I am trying to describe how powerful the kick was! To shoot is different from to kick
2. I was describing PELE the player but I called him the STAR. He is not a literal star in the sky but I want to describe how outstanding he was in the match.
Now, let us ask the dictionary:

TRANSFIGURATION

Noun
1.A complete change of form or appearance into a more beautiful or spiritual state.
2.Christ's appearance in radiant glory to three of his disciples (Matthew 17:2, Mark 9:2–3, Luke 9:28-36).

VISION

Noun
The faculty or state of being able to see: "she had defective vision".
Verb
Imagine.
Synonyms
noun. sight - eyesight - view - dream

verb. envisage - see

I will leave you to tell us the difference.

But let us read the testimony of one of the disciples that witnessed the event live:

2 Peter 1:16-18

For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were EYEWITNESSESof his majesty. He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.

I DO NOT KNOW WHEN MORE THAN ONE PERSON HAVE STARTED SEEING THE SAME TYPE OF VISION AND HEARING THE SAME SOUND AT THE SAME TIME. Vision and dreams are sometimes used interchangeably but I also know that one can see a live and real vision. But this particular one is not a vision by any standard. So please tell us another thing you think it was. As for me and all who tell the truth, it was a live event.
Religion / Re: Do We Go Straight To Heaven After Death, Or After The Resurrection? by ravgach: 10:29am On Sep 26, 2013
haibe:

can you please show me a scripture that says when the old testament saints died they went to a place called paradise and when the sinners died they went to a place called hell, also show that this hell is a waiting place for the sinners till resurrection.

luke 23:43 doesn't prove your points at all, is this how you interpret scriptures? SMH!!

You are always asking for scriptures. I have given you more than a dozen and it did not satisfy your inquest. You have not proven as much as I have on the various issues we have raised.

Luke 23:43 shows that the old testament believers like Elijah and Moses all went to Paradise. This is in line with Jesus' assertion that no one has gone to heaven before he came and died and resurrected John 3:13

If you say this position is incorrect, where then did Moses, Elijah and others go to when they died? Don't tell me Elijah was hanging on a mountain (lol) because the scripture recorded he went to heaven and since it was impossible as Jesus has told us, where did he go to? No old testament prophet knew about paradise. They generalize it for heaven. It was Jesus that revealed to us that they went to paradise.
Religion / Re: Do We Go Straight To Heaven After Death, Or After The Resurrection? by ravgach: 4:32pm On Sep 25, 2013
haibe:

it seems you aren't aware that the bible was written by the inspiration of the holy ghost and not men's knowledge, how do you think david was able to prophesy the suffering of Jesus? do you think it was by his wisdom? NO!!, the holy ghost spoke through all the writers of the scriptures and so your idea of Solomon not knowing until chapter 12 is just your personal heresy, the same holy ghost that spoke to Solomon in verse 9 is the one that spoke in ver2 12.

Now will the Holy ghost contradict itself in verse 12 and 9, NO!! the spirit talked about in verse 12 is the breath of God and not a spirit being but okay let me assume its talking about a spirit being in man.

the verse says "..and the spirit goes back to God who gave it"

Now if you want us to take the "spirit" in this context as a spirit being, then it means everyone including sinners would go back to God at death, so can you see the folly in this assumption?

There is no basis for arguments here, the two statements are correct. That is why we do not just take one part of scripture and form an opinion based on that. We compare scripture with scripture. The two information here are correct:
1. In Chapter 9 we learnt that when one dies, his body is lifeless and therefore unconscious in the grave or wherever the body is.

2. In Chapter 12 we learnt why the body is lifeless and unconscious, is because the spirit has left and gone back to God.

3. The only thing Solomon did not tell us was where the spirit will go after it has gone to God

4. Jesus and the Apostles told us this because of their privileged positions.

5. The place is paradise for the old testament/before Christ's resurrection and heaven after the resurrection of Christ Luke 23:43
Religion / Re: Do We Go Straight To Heaven After Death, Or After The Resurrection? by ravgach: 4:16pm On Sep 25, 2013
haibe:

After the Transfiguration, Jesus said, while leaving the mountain, "Tell the vision to no man" (Matthew 17:9). Jesus calls the transfiguration a vision! A vision is not a material reality like you think but a supernatural picture observed by the eyes. The same Greek word for "vision" was used of Peter's vision of the unclean beasts being made clean (Acts 10:3,17,19; 11:5). They were not real but a supernatural picture. In the case of the transfiguration it was a prophetic vision which would take place in the future . Peter, James and John saw the Son of Man glorified in the Kingdom through a prophetic vision. Here areother examples:


Acts16:9, "And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us." This also is something that was to happen in the future .

Acts 18:9-10, "Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace: For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city." Jesus is telling Paul that, in the near
future , no man shall hurt him.

Visions should not be interpreted as literal bro. For example, look at Genesis 37:5-10. When Joseph dreamed that his "sheaf arose, and stood upright," and his brother’s sheaves bowed down to Joseph’s sheaf (verse 7), Or when Joseph dreamed that "the sun and the moon and the eleven stars" bowed down to Joseph (verse 9), is this literal? No. This was a prophetic vision of something that was to occur in the future ; when Joseph’s mother, father, and brothers would bow down to him as King.

Both Moses and Elijah were still in their graves, but in vision both they and Jesus were seen in glory of the resurrection, and event to which Moses and Elijah have not yet attained at that time (Hebrews 11:39). The vision was granted the disciples after Jesus had spoken of the glory of immortality in the coming Kingdom.

Please do not think Jesus literally communicated with the dead, you are ascribing a sin to him.

My challenge here is your inability to accept certain basic realities. Let's look at the account closely again:

Matthew 17:1-9:

After six days Jesus took with Him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus. Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is My Son, whom I love; with Him I am well pleased. Listen to Him!” When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground, terrified. 7 But Jesus came and touched them. He said, “Get up. Don’t be afraid.” When they looked up they saw no one except Jesus. As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Do not tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”

1. You like to quote Greek and non Greek languages. You are not an authority in the language. You must be following someone else's opinion and not what you have studied yourself. Search the scriptures yourself and ask God to help you with deep understanding of some the topics.
2. Transfiguration is not a vision. If a translation calls it a vision it is semantics. This was a live experience of Peter, James and John. They watched the event live! This is totally different from the vision of Peter in Acts 10:3,17,19; 11:5 and Paul in Acts 16:9 you have referred to.
3. Transfiguration was as literal as the passion when angels ministered to him. Matthew 4:11
4. It was not like speaking with the dead because they are not 'dead' Luke 20:38 "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."
5. You have found it difficult to accept Biblical evidences as basis for truth.
6. This is not to downplay the power of vision. Some visions are literal while other are not. The two visions of Acts 10 are literal and non-literal.
Religion / Re: Do We Go Straight To Heaven After Death, Or After The Resurrection? by ravgach: 1:15pm On Sep 25, 2013
haibe: @ravach lazarus was dead for about 3 days or so, dont you think if he is in heaven already it would be cruel for Jesus to wake him up from heaven to continue suffering on earth and making a possibility of him committing sin and end up in hell even after he has been in heaven? It is not everyone that came back from the dead that had the opportunity to say all that they have seen. Some were also asked not to say. So do not let this confuse you.


It makes sense that after Lazarus was raised from the dead, he doesn’t share what he saw or experienced. He didn’t have anything to tell, except that once he was dead, and now he is alive! He didn’t experience hell or heaven. He was simply“sleeping” in his tomb. Peter on the Day of Pentecost said the same of King david. “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day…For David has not ascend into the heavens…(Acts 2:29, 34). Yes their bodies and tombs are there but their spirits are not there! I have showed you this several times with several scriptural passages.


if you noticed, you would see that the bible compares death to sleep more than fifty times. When we are asleep, we are unconscious; we are not aware of the passing of time or of what is going on around us. That is what death is like as well. The Bible says, “for the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing… their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished” (Ecclesiastes 9:5, psalm 146:4; 115:17). Many of these old testament prophets did not know about this until it was revealed to some of them. For instance after Solomon made this statement in Chapter 9 of Ecclesiastics, it was revealed to him in chapter 12 verse 7. They old testament prophets did not have complete knowledge as we do today.


So many other passage proves that a dead person is unconscious but that they would be ressurected at the end of time either to everlasting life or everlasting contempt.
Religion / Re: Do We Go Straight To Heaven After Death, Or After The Resurrection? by ravgach: 1:07pm On Sep 25, 2013
haibe: Once again Elijah did not go to heaven unless you would be saying Jesus is a liar for saying "no man has ascended into heaven"
Elijah went to paradise. I have repeated this over and over again. But immediately Jesus resurrected, no single old prophet was left behind. They all went to heaven. Matthew 27:52; Hebrews 2:15
Religion / Re: Do We Go Straight To Heaven After Death, Or After The Resurrection? by ravgach: 1:02pm On Sep 25, 2013
haibe: Again I will ask: what is the essence of God deporting us back to the earth if we can live with him in the third heaven?.

You can also ask: Why did Jesus come to earth, left back to heaven, will come again at resurrection and go again at rapture and will return at the consummation of all things (new heaven and new earth)? Why the question? Is he spending too much money? or is it a waste of resources? I can't figure out the essence of the question. The plan of God is for us to live in the new heaven and new earth. We have been so privileged to know how He will accomplish this. We should be grateful and not question Him.
Religion / Re: Do We Go Straight To Heaven After Death, Or After The Resurrection? by ravgach: 12:56pm On Sep 25, 2013
haibe: What the disciples saw on the mount of transfiguration is only a vision, Jesus did not speak literally with moses and elijah unless He would be guilty of necromancy which God has condemned.


Transfiguration is not a vision please! Let me help you out here. Before people go to the moon, they are trained on how to survive in the moon. The way they do it is by scientifically conditioning a room or an aircraft or an environment into a state of no gravity. This way the travelers have a first experience of how the moon is like. This is the closest one can get to the moon before setting one's foot there. Transfiguration is a foretaste of our translation. Being in the state of heaven before going there. Having foretaste of what it would look like if we are in the new Jerusalem! It is a reality and not a vision.
Religion / Re: Do We Go Straight To Heaven After Death, Or After The Resurrection? by ravgach: 12:46pm On Sep 25, 2013
haibe: it seems you dont understand what I mean that the spirit is not a "separate entity from the body, I don't mean the spirit cannot be separated from the body but that the spirit is not a person, and therefore cannot be existing as a separate entity or individual from the body.

You are making confusing statements here. You will only be holding on to this your beliefs, after you have seen clearly from scripture the position of things, if you love to argue a lot. I will quote again one of the very key Bible passages I have been bringing up since I started this presentation. I hope you accept the scriptures and forget your philosophies and theories:

Revelation 6:9-11: "Now when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been violently killed because of the word of God and because of the testimony they had given. They cried out with a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Master, holy and true, before you judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?” Each of them was given a long white robe and they were told to rest for a little longer, until the full number was reached of both their fellow servants and their brothers who were going to be killed just as they had been.
1. These are identifiable personalities
2. They are living without their bodies as they must have been buried or burnt to ashes or thrown to lions etc.
3. These were people killed while on earth
4. They are now in heaven
5. They were speaking and pleading for vengeance
6. They still remember how they were killed
7. They referred to the people on earth

If the above did not convince you, then may be you will need to write your own Bible based on your beliefs. But as for the Holy Bible:
1. Our spirits are identifiable personalities
2. It lives separate from the body (now dead)
Religion / Re: Do We Go Straight To Heaven After Death, Or After The Resurrection? by ravgach: 12:06pm On Sep 25, 2013
haibe: EW bullinger says: So effectually has Satan's lie, "thou shalt not surely die", succeeded and accomplished its purpose that, though the Lord Jesus said "I will come again and receive you unto Myself", Christendom says, with one voice, "No! Lord. Thou needest not come for me: I will die and come to Thee". Thus the blessed hope of resurrection and the coming of the Lord have been well nigh blotted out from the belief of the Churches; and the promise of the Lord been made of none effect by the ravages of Tradition.

I think bullinger is just right about his words above, christendom has decided to see death as a means by which they go to heaven thereby making the power of resurrection meaningless and taking away the joy of ressurection which the early apostles had.

[color=#990000]EW Bullinger is making a great mistake by this statement. It is not all statements you take line, hook and sinker. Satan was telling Eve in this Bible book of Genesis that you are quoting that they will live forever physically on earth if they ate the fruit. Satan was actually telling them the truth but from the back door. God had intended man to live forever in his sinless state. Satan used this true information to make man sin against God and man fell for his lies. The truth is that spirits do not die. As spirit beings, we do not die. this is how God made us. It is our spirits that will give account of our lives not the physical body Proverbs 20:27. Even though our outward man perish, our inner man (our spirits do not) and this is a fact of scripture. This is why there are spirits of the saints in heaven as we write these words Hebrews 12:23. These men in heaven now will be resurrected on the last day. Their spirits will return with the power of God and enter their various bodies wherever they are no matter the years and centuries they may have died and their bodies will be translated to be like the bodies of angels.


[/color]
In Phil. 2:27, we read that Epaphraditus "was sick nigh unto death; but God had mercy on him"..So that it was mercy to preserve Epaphraditus from death. This could hardly be called "mercy" if death were the "gate of glory", according to popular tradition. i mean it won't make sense to think God had mercy on him if he would be going to heaven straight after death.

In 2 Cor. 1:10-11, it was deliverance of no ordinary kind when Paul himself was "delivered from so great a death" which called for corresponding greatness of thanksgiving for God's answer to their prayers on his behalf. Moreover, he trusted that God would still deliver him. It is clear from 2 Cor. 5:4 that Paul did not wish for death; for he distinctly says "not for that he would be unclothed, but clothed upon (i.e. in resurrection and "change"wink that mortality might be swallowed up of LIFE"; not of death. This is what he was so "earnestly desiring"

That a man was delivered from untimely death does not mean the death of the saint is not more pleasant to the Lord. Remember Jesus Himself escaped being killed by the Jews. God miraculously saved Him several times. Did this stop him from dying and going to heaven? No. their deliverance shows that it was not yet time for them to die. Their untimely death will bring untold hardship to the brethren and will also affect the purpose of God for them that is why God stopped it. It does not mean they will not die again or if they die, there will not be resurrection for them.
Religion / Re: Do We Go Straight To Heaven After Death, Or After The Resurrection? by ravgach: 11:18am On Sep 25, 2013
haibe: @ravgach, I have read all your posts and I still think you are missing something.

firstly you are right that the spirit is not mere breath, it is infact through our spirit we are able to connect with God but neither is the spirit a separate entity from the body that can exist alone, man was created with a body and a spirit in order to live, unlike God who exists as a spirit being. @Haibe: If we are right to say that man's breath is not the same as his spirit, and the scriptures confirms that the spirit of man leaves the body at death, is it not a contradiction for you to still hold on to your belief that the spirit and the body are not separate entities despite convincing evidences from the Bible? Are you holding on to your tradition or the Bible? I will suggest you let go of whatever beliefs or teachings you may have received in the past and embrace the written Word of God.

in the case of man, he doesn't have a spirit that can exist like that of God because he is not created a spirit being but a human being, I think the confusion may come from the word spirit, the greek word translated spirit is "pneuma" which can mean breath, wind or air, it is also used to explain spiritual beings but as used in man it means breath, however the bible makes us understand that the spirit isn't just breath but that this breath/spirit is the candle of God in man, in order words it can be seen as what reveals a man to God but this doesn't make it a separate entity from man himself, without the spirit the body cannot function, also without the body the spirit cannot function, it goes back to God who gave it. if the spirit in man can live as a separate entity from its body or can go to heaven immediately after death, then I think the idea of resurrection is not necessary, what is the essence of resurrection to God if I am already with him in heaven? or why is it described as a joyous event if I am already with God in heaven, again why is described as the blessed hope of believers if I am with God already?
think of it. My brother, you are not an authority in the greek language. You will be missing it if you try to rely too much on an evidence you are not very familiar with to support whatever position you may have taken. You are somehow still holding to your 'breath' theory as 'spirit'. Please discard this completely as it is not true. You have seen it very clearly too. Two things are very clear:
1. When a man dies, his body is buried or done away with depending on how he died.
2. The spirit goes back to God. This is very clear.
3. There is a separation between the body in the grave and the spirit that has gone back to God
4. If the body is in the grave and the spirit with God, there is a clear separation. There is no argument about this.
5. There is therefore separation as you can see.

The issue of resurrection, is a separate phase in God's program. That a man's spirit has gone to heaven does not mean it will not be resurrected again. I have showed you from scripture that the spirit of the dead person returns at resurrection to the lifeless body and it will come out of the grave just the same way Jesus' resurrection took place. I Kings 17:19-21. But this time, the body will no longer be like the normal human body. It will be translated, transformed, changed like that of the angels. "Behold, I tell you a mystery...we will all be changed..." 1 Corinthians 15:51. Going to heaven now will not in any way impede resurrection. This is what we read from the Bible. When Elijah went to 'heaven' (paradise) and Moses died and buried (went to paradise), did you not read about their having conversation with Jesus several centuries after? Matthew 17:1-13.

After the first and second resurrection, the great tribulation, the millennial reign of Christ and the final judgement, those with God in heaven will return and live in the world to come (new heaven and new earth) Jude 14-15; Luke 19:17-19; Revelation 21:3-5.

This issue of going to heaven after is a reality. It has been seen clearly in the scriptures it should not challenge the minds of believers.


Jesus made it clear in several passages that he is coming for us, no where did he say we are coming to meet him.

" and if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF; that where I am, there ye may be also" (John 14:3)

"ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, AND COME AGAIN UNTO YOU..." (John 14:28)

Also Jesus did not promise us the third heaven but eternal life or resurrection to life to paradise"

"whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life and I WILL RAISE HIM UP ON THE LAST DAY" (John 6:54)


"and I give them eternal life; and they shall never perish.." (John 10:28)

"..that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life" (John 3:16)

the apostles made it clear also that the resurrection is the hope of them that are asleep in Christ. (1 Corinthians 15:16-20)

You are mixing everything up. Jesus coming to receive us is a part of his promises not all of them. This one here specifically refers to the rapture (resurrection). Do not forget that this was before his death and resurrection. No one has gone to heaven before the death and resurrection of Christ but after his resurrection, we have seen believers in Christ in scriptures go to heaven.

That a man was delivered from untimely death does not mean the death of the saint is not more pleasant to the Lord. Remember Jesus Himself escaped being killed by the Jews. God miraculously saved Him several times. Did this stop him from dying and going to heaven? No.
[/color][color=#990000]
Religion / Re: Do We Go Straight To Heaven After Death, Or After The Resurrection? by ravgach: 4:02pm On Sep 24, 2013
JMAN05:

Thanks for your answer. however, the answer is not consistent with the portion i quoted. answer the questions as I posred above. I never said it was ordinary breath.

You are correct but I needed to add those explanations because it is not just that simple.

Thank so much too.
Religion / Re: Do We Go Straight To Heaven After Death, Or After The Resurrection? by ravgach: 3:59pm On Sep 24, 2013
[quote author=CAPTIVATOR][/quote]
CAPTIVATOR: At this Point Somone may wonder again dat Wat abt d Soul?...The Bible TEACHES dat a Living Man is also A Soul(Genesis 2:7)...so we are not Suprised Dat the Bible Teaches dat A soul Dies (Ezekiel 18:4)! So a SOUL IS ALSO A MAN. FROM ALL THESE WE CAN SEE DAT GOD'S WORD TEACHES DAT A PERSON OR SOUL DAT HAS DIED IS UNCONSCIOUS OR KNOWS NOTHIN...BUT GOD WHOM IS D GIVER OF LIFE HAS PROMISED TO RESURECT RIGHTEOUS ONES(JOHN 5:28,29) DAT TIME WHEN HE WILL MAKE ALL THINGS NEW(Revelation 21:3-5)...Isnt Dat Heartwarming nd shows GOD Loves Us?

You are being confused here by synonyms. If I tell you that "these are great minds" what does the word "minds" represent here? People of course! Do not allow this to confuse you. The Bible uses synonyms too. Jesus sometimes calls "death" sleep. He did severally but the case of Lazarus is very instructive: In John 11 verse 10 He said to His disciples "Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up." in verse 14 He said "Lazarus is dead". Let us please learn these lessons.

The resurrection of John 5:28-29 is very clear: "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice and shall come forth; they that have DONE GOOD, unto the RESURRECTION OF LIFE; and they that have DONE EVIL, unto the RESURRECTION OF DAMNATION". when you said: "But God whom is the giver of life has promised to resurrect righteous ones", you said just one part of the account Jesus Himself gave here. The resurrection is both for the righteous and the unrighteous. The Good and the Bad. We should always learn to say what the scriptures say.

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