haibe:

Learn what? Just recocile it with your heresy.

Both passages were inspired by the Holy Spirit

haibe: Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 states, "For the living
are conscious that they will die; but as for
the dead, they are conscious of nothing at
all, neither do they anymore have wages,
because the remembrance of them has
been forgotten. 6 Also, their love and
their hate and their jealousy have already
perished, and they have no portion
anymore to time indefinite in anything
that has to be done under the sun."

@ravgach how can you reconcile this verses with your theory of ghosts existing, even though they are to be dead and unconscious?

And how can you reconcile the idea of ghosts with your heresy of the spirit of the dead going to heaven or hell after they die?

Will they be released from heaven or hell again to interact with those on earth?

You are just confusing yourself and contradicting yourself mister.

JMAN05:

In the resurrection, it is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. Jesus was raised a spirit. that is why he appeared and disappeared. he even appeared in different fleshly bodies depending on the situation. this he didnt do before death. to reinforce in the minds of his disciples that he was a spirit materialized.

Jesus did not resurrect a spirit. He resurrected with his full body even though it was now glorified. He was never a spirit in any form. Check out his encounter with Thomas: "And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing." John 20:26-27. He resurrected in the same body that he was crucified with though now glorified. It was not this glorified body that made Him appear and disappear. He had this power before. It is true that this time he increased in power after he resurrected. He was more in touch with Heaven than His disciples for the one month plus he was around after resurrection. He was physically here, he was not a spirit at all.


how do you expect Jesus to have the same body he gave in sacrifice? if you go to sacrifice your bull for sin, do you expect to receive it back? do you think we are doing film tricks here?

Jesus had that body back. Though it is glorified by this time and had greater spiritual and physical powers.


during the last supper, Jesus showed that his flesh (loaf) and blood (wine), will be given in our behalf. he can have that body and blood again. of course flesh and blood cant be in heaven where Jesus is going.

Jesus definitely did not go up into heaven with flesh and blood. He had already presented the blood of atonement to the Father immediately he came out of the grave. This made him tell Mary not to touch him until he had gone to the Father. He went back to heaven in his glorified body not as a spirit.


1 Corinthians 15:38, 47 KJV
But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Jesus and the saints receive heavenly bodies. this is not a visibly body, but in Jesus case he materialised fleshly bodies. It is going to be as visible as the body of Christ.


2. Jah preserves a record our the life of those he is going to resurrect. exod. 32:33, deut. 29:20. Everyone will be resurrected both good and evil. John 5:28-29


that record is the important thing God needs before giving it a new body. he doesnt need the spirit or life force. the life force will only come in after the body is there. I did not really get what you are explaining here, but if it is resurrection, the spirit is actually the most important ingredient because the spirit is the real man not the body.


Jesus was just trying to emphasize to them that he was no phantom or apparition. he appeared with a physical body, so no need to doubt what they were seeing, as if it was a product of there imagination or vision.

haibe:

See John 21:25 you don't seem sound to me

Be specific, ghosts or spirit beings

If ghosts then you are an heretic, if spirit beings like angels you are right

JMAN05:

In the resurrection, it is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. Jesus was raised a spirit. that is why he appeared and disappeared. he even appeared in different fleshly bodies depending on the situation. this he didnt do before death. to reinforce in the minds of his disciples that he was a spirit materialized.

haibe: My questin is how do know Jesus did not later tell them that ghosts don't exist?

haibe:

We are talking about the spirit in man now, don't deviate our attention, the spirit in man is not a person.

Jesus was telling them he was not a ghost, like the egyptian mythology which some christians are bringing to the christian faith, he was not a ghost, he resurrected, he is alive.

haibe:

And how are you sure he did not later tell them, you think every single thing that happened is written in the bible? SMH!!

No where in the epistles or acts of the apostle after the disciples have received the holy ghost, no where did they talk about ghosts, if ghosts really existed, they could have mentioned it at least once but obviously they got to know that the dead are in their grave and are awaiting resurrection and the idea of ghosts are false.

haibe:

Jesus did not believe in ghosts, his superstitious apostles did, Jesus knew the truth, when the apostles encountered something they could not understand, they immediately assumed it was a ghost according to their belief and Jesus knowing what they meant by ghost told them he wasn't a ghost.

That was their superstitious belief then which amazingly people like you still hold on to it, i must say this is my most shocking day on nairaland, a christian believing in ghosts.

haibe:

Please when did i say ghosts exist, the first ever sentence i made about ghosts is that they don't exist but spiritualists make people see their dead relatives as ghosts.

Φƙα̲̅ψ if you mis-inderstood me, ghosts do not exist, you can show me an existence of the dead coming to life as ghosts in the bible like your egyptian mythology.

haibe:

This is what happens when people do not take time to read. Saul wanted to have a conversation with samuel and then went ahead to meet the wizard even when God has warned against this, the wizard then showed saul what he would call the ghost of samuel, when infact it wasn't samuel.

Please take time to read before commenting, ⌣ok?

haibe:

We are talking about the spirit in man now, don't deviate our attention, the spirit in man is not a person.

Jesus was telling them he was not a ghost, like the egyptian mythology which some christians are bringing to the christian faith, he was not a ghost, he resurrected, he is alive.

Itsfacts:
You said Samuel saw a ghost and still say ghost doesn't exist. Read my post again

haibe:

I have read your post again, you said ghost exist and i am telling you they do not exist.

haibe:

Let me go by your logic that those people whose body arosed in matt 27:52 "went to heaven" indeed.

Now my question is this:



QUESTION

1. If they resurrected and went to heaven, does that not mean they are not disembodied spirits in heaven but real people with
bodies?

ANSWER

No sir. They will not be in heaven with their real bodies. Those peopled that resurrected in Matthew 27:52 are in heaven by their spirits. What happened to them was exactly what happened to Elijah and Enoch. The difference is that while Enoch and Elijah then went to Paradise, they went to heaven (Paradise now relocated to heaven). They were translated. Nobody will be able to say where their bodies are until the day of resurrection. Their resurrection is a foretaste of the resurrection proper just as the rapture of Elijah and Enoch is a foretaste of the rapture of the Church. The people John saw in Revelation 6:9-11 were not their with their bodies but by their spirits.


QUESTION

2. Since this people are in heaven now after they resurrected(according to you), why would they need to ressurect again at the second coming
of Christ? Talk about resurrecting twice..lol, or will they be exempted from resurrection at the second coming? Lol, then you would be
contradicting Christ since he said "all".

ANSWER

If you understand certain events and patterns of God's program, you will find easy to understand some of these things. When people die in the Old Testament and before the resurrection of Jesus Christ, they go to paradise or Abraham's Bossom. Paradise is simply the Garden of Eden or Garden of God. That Garden of Eden that was lost at the fall of man will eventually be restored at the end of all things. "Behold I make all things new..." Now that Garden was replicated spiritually and made invisible on earth here from the Old Testament time until the resurrection of Christ Luke 23:43 "Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.."; Luke 16:23 "...and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom..." and housed all believers from Abel to the Thief on the Cross. Please remember John 3:13 "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man."

Now what you are calling 'resurrection' is actually RISING FROM THE DEAD which is not different from what happened when Jesus came to the door of the Tomb of Lazarus and said: "Lazarus come forth..." There is no difference. The scripture recorded in Matthew 27:52 "and many bodies of the saints which slept AROSE, .. This is not the resurrection we are hoping for. This is why they will still partake in the resurrection because they have not been resurrected.


QUESTION

3. If after those saints body arosed they "went to heaven", why then did peter say david's body was still with them after christ's resurrection ?
(acts 2:9)

ANSWER

Ok understand it this way, when those saints where translated, (remember that flesh and blood cannot inherit God's Kingdom) their bodies went back to the ground because they put off their natural bodies. So if Peter tells the Jews that David's body was still in the grave he is very correct.


QUESTION

*According to you, at resurrection, the spirit who has been living many years in heaven enters its body and resurrects*.

Don't you think your kind of doctrine of resurrection is illogical since the saints in heaven have already resurrected like Christ and are in heaven? Why put on their bodies at resurrection again? Does this make sense?

ANSWER

It is not illogical at all! The mistake you are making is to think that they have already been resurrected. They have not been resurrected at all. They only rose from the dead and were translated just the same way Enoch and Elijah were (to put it in an elementary way, they were raised from the grave 'resurrected' and their spirits taken to heaven while their bodies evaporated and went back to the ground). The difference here is, instead going to paradise (invisible here on earth) which was where they went to before the resurrection of Christ, they went to heaven (paradise which is now in heaven 2 Corinthians 12:2; Revelation 2:7), so they go to heaven. They will still be resurrected on the last day.

On the resurrection morning, the various spirit will leave their abode in heaven (paradise) with the power of God at the sound of the trumpet by the archangel, will quicken the unconscious, decayed, corrupted, 'sleeping' bodies in the grave and they will wake up changed, incorruptible, immortal (1 Corinthians 15:51; Romans 8:11) and go up to heaven. This time, it will include all living and dead saints and they will be there not in their spirit this time, but in their angelic bodies Mark 12:25. The ultimate plan of God is not to leave the believers in heaven, they will come back and inherit the earth - Paradise, the Eden of God, the New Jerusalem (New Heaven and New Earth) Jude 14, 15. You will say Paradise. I say yes. Paradise will be restored and will be the final abode of man. Revelation 21, 22


You said since then, everyone who died went to heaven. Now if those people resurrected bodily and "went to heaven", why won't everyone who die also resurrect first like them before going to heaven like them? why then are you propounding the idea of disembodied spirits going to heaven after death? when according to you those saints body arosed before going to heaven.

I think this should make it clear to you that no one except Jesus is in heaven now and that your doctrine of disembodied spirits going to heaven is pure heresy.

Like i said the other time, what you need is thorough bible study.

haibe: @itsfact because people believe ghosts exist doesn't mean they really exist.

Jesus telling them he wasn't a spirit or ghost doesn't prove that ghosts exist, it was what they believed and he was only telling them he wasn't who they think he is, a ghost.

You can just answer the OP, then give verses to support your point, just do your part by answering the question.

haibe:

Its the spirit that goes to God when we die, the spirit in man isn't what you think it is, it is not a person, it is what keeps us alive and connects us to God, it is the candle of God in man.

So simply, the spirit is not just breath, neither is it a person that can exist on its own.

haibe:
I never said heaven is interchangeable with paradise, i was only using the idea people like you have of paradise, they generally say we are going to heaven, when in fact paradise is coming out from heaven to the earth, so its human idea that paradise is the same as heaven not the bible's idea.

2 cor 12 is not still supporting your point, paradise is presently in heaven, so if paul says he was taken up to paradise, it means he was taken up to heaven in essence, that's very logical, it doesn't mean paradise and heaven are the same thing.

John is right, excluding Jesus no one has ascended to heaven, neither has anyone gone to paradise after death, the heaven here doesn't correlate as regards elijah taken "UP TO HEAVEN".

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth"(Gen 1:1)

"...and in multiplying, i will multiply thee as the stars of the heaven.."(Gen 22:17)

"...and let moses sprinkle it towards the heaven in the sight of pharoah"(Exo 9:

"...and worshipped all the host of heaven and served baal" (2 kings 17:16)

Is the heaven used here in this verses God's abode or paradise or the sky??

haibe:

Of course by heaven i meant paradise, you said heaven is also known as paradise, am not disputing that.

So how does that passage mean that enoch went to paradise?

And the bible says elijah went "up to heaven", but according to you, paradise is invisible on earth, how is that in agreement with your claim?

You just love to confuse yourself, the word heaven is also used the denote thee sky, elijah was taken up to the sky not an invisible paradise, your arguments are not in line with the scriptures, your interpretations are poor, my gosh am tired of arguing with you, you seem to just be following what your pastors or fathers are teaching you, you are not opened to finding the truth at all.

haibe:

My goodness, when does translation start meaning to go to heaven? I don't seem to understand you bro, why are you twisting scriptures, the bible never said he went to heaven immediately.

God took enoch doesn't mean he was taken to heaven, we have other records translation, it doesn't mean he went to heaven.

JMAN05: unanswered:

1. And i asked: Ok. Spirits dont die.
Spirits of
animals go to heaven? Spirits of evil
men are in heaven? That is true,
right?

second:

concerning the saints you said that the altar symbolic protection

Protection from what? In heaven?

haibe:

@ravgach my question did not seek for paradise only.

Any old testament prove that when an evil person dies, he goes to hell immediately?

You refused to answer this, why? Any prove of this from the OT ??

haibe:

Wait a minute!! Are you saying Abraham's bosom in that parable is paradise

Mogbe Oº°˚˚°ºh

Oo so paradise is in hades? Why then do we need another paradise(new jerusalem) in the future if abraham's bosom in hades is paradise?

Lol bro let me make it simple to you, we have just 2 paradise in the bible, the one man lost(the garden of eden) and the one we will gain in the end(new jerusalem)

So bro your theology is unbiblical, this is perverting the word of God, how can you compare abraham's bosom in Jesus parable with the paradise God has prepared for us to dwell in? You won't cease to amaze me ravgach.

So that place the rich man was is the hell which the evil ones will go right?

My goodness.

haibe:

Hebrew 11:13

So how then is it possible that he was just taken to heaven?

haibe:

Firstly you accused be of following traditions, i then made it known to you that the church i attend does not support me on this issue.

Secondly you accused me of not wanting to follow organized bible teaching and that i like to pick from every doctrines flying around, i then made it known to you that no church is perfect and that's why i have to see if what they teach is in line with the scriptures in order not to be tossed by every wind of doctrine.

Thirdly you are accusing me of being indoctrinated and that my mind has already been prejudiced.

At this point i must say you are giving me the notion that you are a confused fellow.

JMAN05: pls tell me where this paradise is, heaven or in the grave?

secondly Will all the righteous be in heaven?

haibe:

How does this passage prove that he went to paradise or even heaven?

If God did take him to paradise or heaven straight, how then is it possible that he died as the bible later told us?

haibe:

The verse says "they went UP to heaven", my question is this: the paradise you are talkin about here, is it up in heaven or down here on earth?

JMAN05:


I think you are the one hardening your reason here.

1) my friend I am saying that you cant say John saw conscious souls under an altar literally and still say it is symbolic. If you say the souls are literal, then the altar is literal. So during the fulfilment John will see humans under an altar? John is telling us that what he is seeing are souls underneath an altar. If you say protection. Protection from what?

2) when they asked how long b4 their blood is to be avenged, no answer was giving them. No. this not correct. An answer was actually given: Verse 11:"...and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were , should be fulfilled."
That is just calling for justice. Yes they called for justice (they are real not figurative and they were in heaven) but they also got an answer.


Revelation 6:10-11 KJV
"And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? [11] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were , should be fulfilled."

I dont think that There being told to wait is not for protection . Protection from what? In heaven? (Remember that this is after handing them white robes). The question is show a scripture saying the alter is a symbol of protection. and I gave the above quote showing that being on or under the alter depicts protection. Does this show the alter is also a symbol of protection or not? Please also read 1 Kings 1: 51: "Then Solomon was told, “Adonijah is afraid of King Solomon and is clinging to the horns of the altar. He says, ‘Let King Solomon swear to me today that he will not put his servant to death with the sword.’”



I never said the breath of life is life, but i am trying to say that it is a life-force that activated the lifeless body.

I used electricity as an eg. When NEPA supply power, your radio begins to work, but when it is interrupted the radio stops working. Now, the eletricity cant exist by itself without the radio and the radio cant work without the electricity. Subtitute radio for lifeless body(or lifeless soul) and electricity for breath of life (spirit). That agrees with the formular:

lifeless soul + breath of life = living soul.

And living soul - breath of life = lifeless soul.
Gen. 2:7

That is what i can gather from that verse. So when the bible says the breath goes back to God, I conclude that this breath doesnt have a conscious existence of itself apart from the body. Stop making unbiblical conclusions. You have admitted that the breath is not spirit so why are you still confused? It then means that that statement shows that the person's future life prospect rest on God. That is not what it means. There is a spirit that never dies. That spirit is a personality and it goes back to God at death.


Saying that the spirit continues to live will lead to the question: where was that spirit before it came into adam?

Let me also ask you: Where were angels before they become visible? If you answer this question, then it will be easier for you to answer your question.


1. How can it be a sorrowful thing for a sinner since he spirit continues to stay with God in heaven?

2. Wasnt adam and eve sinners? How then are they in heaven? Read gen 3:19.

Adam and Eve are not sinners! They fell from grace and God sought for them and redeemed them.

When Adam and Eve sinned in the garden, God gave them skins to cover up with (Genesis 3:21). To get those skins, some animal had to die. In other words, God sacrificed an animal to cover their sin. From the beginning, God has declared the payment for sin is death, and so blood must be shed to cover sin:


Leviticus 17:11: “For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.”

Hebrews 9:22: “In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” Please let's not get distracted by this one. If you want to discuss it, let's do it another day.

Please shed more light on what you mean. In this dispensation, meaning what? I am talking about the advice. This dispensation means in the New Testament.


Solomon says that there is no knowledge, no work etc where you are going. Meaning that we should make good use of our life now cos we are unconscious at death.

If we exist at heaven after death, will there be any need for this advice? At least we will be conscious, we can hate, love, have wisdom, knowledge etc.

Is he not limiting our destination after death to a situation of consciousness? Remember he said, the place to which you are GOING.

I have explained this repeatedly here. The words of Solomon cannot in any way supersede the Words of our Lord Jesus Christ. Please take the words of Jesus.

If spirits are kept until resurrection, why then do you say that spirits go to heaven after death?

Let me get you, are you saying that the spirits in all humans do not have corruption? What do you mean by corruption here? If it means decay as the 1 Corinthians 15 puts it, then it is a fact of scripture. But if you mean sin in another context, then some do have corruption. Sinners do.

1. Be specific, point out the scripture you use in supporting that they will rise as flesh and then translated.

2. Are they being resurrected in the flesh as immortals?

1cor. 15 is talking about a different thing.

Please read 1 Corinthians 15 and digest it.


At matthew Jesus was talking about the fulfilment of some scriptural interpretation, not seeing him.

Read the context of hebrews 11, you will see that it is talking about the promise of the kingdom.

Hebrews 11:13-16 KJV
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them , and embraced them , and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. [14] For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. [15] And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. [16] But now they desire a better country , that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Hebrews 11 verse 13 and verse 39 are not ta1lking about the same thing. Hebrew 11:13 talks about promises while verse 39 is talking about a PROMISE. We have to rightly divide the word of truth.



Hebrews 11:35 KJV
Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:"

As such i think that the saints will resurrect before the prechristian men. Whoever resurrects first what does that matter? After all they will all resurrect in the first resurrection. If you have seen that they rise first and then we will follow after should that be an argument?

Jesus said:

John 3:13
'And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, the son of man'

Christ is the first to be resurrected into heaven, the saints will follow after.

1 Corinthians 15:20 KJV
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become [size=15pt]the firstfruits of them that slept[/size]."

1 Corinthians 15:23 KJV
"But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

You are just muddling things up
here. You are confusing those who
want to understand the scriptures
as it is written. In Hebrews
12:21-24:
The Apostle was addressing
Christian jews. He was basically
comparing Judaism with the faith in
Christ. He was comparing the
Heavenly Jerusalem with was the
hope of the believers with the
Mount from which Moses received
the law. Remember that these
Jews hold Moses and the Law
sacred. He took out time to
describe the Heavenly Jerusalem to
these Christian Jews. He now
brought out some of the
outstanding features of this heaven
which is now their hope compared
to the Mount they hold sacred.
These were some of the things he
highlighted:
1. Mount Zion - Heavenly
Jerusalem
2. Myriads of Angels
3. General Assembly (The elders
etc.) - The Church
4. God, Judge of all
5. The Spirits of Just Men
6. Jesus Christ
7. The Blood of Jesus
There is no way these can be
talking about the Christian Jews
themselves. It is talking about
Heaven (Mount Zion, Heavenly
Jerusalem). It is as clear as clear
itself. You can only distort it but
the truth stands out. Let us be a bit
truthful in the things we say.

It is true he was comparing the law covenant and that of christ. But also note that as he was speaking about the law covenant, he spoke about those who approached it. Mere looking at his word from verse 22 looks as if he is listing what is in heaven. But note that on the part of the law covenant, he was listing things that happened on that day at sinai, but as he was writing this letter he is not listing what happened during the new covenant. That is the difference. Granted he listed what is in heaven From verses 22 to first part of 23. But when he said congregation of firstborn enrolled in the heaven. He cant understand this to mean the faithful men of old cos it is Jesus disciples who are said to resurrect after christ, not now, but during his presence. 1cor. 15; 20, 23 compare rev 20:4

The spirits of Just ones refers to the spiritual life this saints live. The same thing was said in verse 9.

Hebrews 12:9 KJV
"Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us , and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of (our NIV) spirits, and live?"

HE WAS DESCRIBING HEAVEN nothing in that passage is describing the Jewish Christians. Please say what the scriptures say.


On the issue of ecclesiates inspiration. I am stunned at your dishonesty. Are you denying your comment? I dont discuss with insincere people. More of this, i will withdraw.

Your words:

why not
allow
the Spirit of God to assist you?
Check
out Solomon's doubts like yours
before
he was inspired:

Deny it.

I will say I am sorry here for your misunderstanding me. I didn't mean he was not inspired. It is semantics. All scripture is inspired. But we have to understand that the writers have their own minds. It was not a dictation they are writing. Sometime they themselves doubt what is revealed as a result of the level of their understanding. If you check the passage you will see that Solomon asked a question. So if I say he doubted, I am not wrong at all.


As for the psalms 146;4, you are correct, i was wrong. The "he" refers to the man not breath.

How about the Lord Jesus Christ? Did
Jesus not tell his disciples about
heaven before and after he rose from
the dead?
The issue of going to heave
immediately after death for the
present new testament believer is
never, never in doubt.
When the members of the Sanhedrin
heard this, they were furious and
gnashed their teeth at him. But
Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked
up TO HEAVEN and saw THE GLORY OF
GOD AND JESUS STANDING AT THE
RIGHT HAND OF GOD. “Look,” he said,
“I see heaven open and the Son of
Man standing at the right hand of
God.” At this they covered their ears
and, yelling at the top of their voices,
they all rushed at him, dragged him
out of the city and began to stone
him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid
their coats at the feet of a young man
named Saul. While they were stoning
him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus,
receive my spirit.” Then he fell on his
knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold
this sin against them.” When he had
said this, he fell asleep. Acts 7:54-59

I HOPE YOU WILL NOT SAY IT IS
SYMBOLIC

1. And i asked: Ok. Spirits dont die. Spirits of
animals go to heaven? Spirits of evil
men are in heaven? That is true,
right?

Answer it.

2. Jesus talked about heaven because he came from there. Paul cant talk about it except from vision, trance or any other supernatural means.

3. I said it is not literal. Stephen having known what Jesus said that he is the truth and life. He knew that he is capable of restoring his life even when he is killed.

I dont know if you know what resurrection means at all. Please check and see whether when one goes to heaven, whether you can view that one as dead again.

Where was the soul before he began to exist on earth, and it also means that animals are in heaven, not so?

JMAN05: ravgach

please attend to this;

1 Corinthians 15:52-54 KJV
In a moment, in the twinkling of
an eye, at the last trump: for the
trumpet shall sound, and the
dead shall be raised
incorruptible, and we shall be
changed. [53] For this
corruptible must put on
incorruption, and this mortal
must put on immortality. [54] So
when this corruptible shall have
put on incorruption, and this
mortal shall have put on
immortality, then shall be
brought to pass the saying that
is written, Death is swallowed
up in victory."

From the above verse, this is the
area immortality appeared in the
bible for the dead.

1) if you say that we are inherently
immortal, why then do we[b] put
on [/b]immortality?

The scripture 1 Corinthians 15:52-54 you quoted above, is referring to the body of the dead saints in the grave that
is resurrected. The spirit of the saints will leave their abode in heaven with the power of God on the resurrection morning
and will enter the bodies in their graves or wherever they may have died. The body will now be changed, transfigured,
translated, transformed (become immortal) like that of the angels of God. "At the resurrection people...be like the angels
in heaven". Matthew 22:30. The immortality here refers to the body and not the spirit. The spirit is already immortal by
nature.


2) if we have an immortal soul, it
also means that we have an
incorruptible soul( if you say no,
then you are not being consistent).
Then why put on incorruptibility?

There are two things here:
1. The spirit is both immortal and incorruptible. Please note that the scripture you are referring to here
is not talking about the spirit at all.
2. The body, which is the subject of Paul in the passage, is mortal and corruptible. That is why it will become
like the spirit on the resurrection day.


3. Did you notice that it was when
the saints put on immortality that
"death will be swallowed forever"
because no one will die again?

If it is only spirits that will inherit
heaven according to the above, and
if our spirits do not die with us,
then why did that verse say death
is swallowed forever in Christ
presence?

Please try and understand that the scriptures is written in context. When you take it out of context, you will be
throwing all of us into deep confusion.

The passage is talking about the body that is now transformed on the resurrection morning. If you ask your questions
in this light, you will be helping yourself to understand it better. Right now, you seem to be mixing everything up.


If we follow your doctrine, cant we say that death is already swallowed forever, after all we live on after death?

1 Corinthians 15:18 KJV
Then they also which are fallen
asleep in Christ are perished.
Why could Paul say that our faith is
in vain if the dead are not to be
raised up? Will that make sense if
after death, our souls keep on living
in heaven?

Is this place not in agreement with
the formular I gave in the outset?
Lifeless soul + the breath of life = living soul?

Did the breath have life before it
came to the flesh?

another one you omitted:

1 Corinthians 15:23 KJV
"But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits; afterward
they that are Christ's at his
coming."

So it is during his coming that the
saints will smell heaven, not
before.

Jesus never went to his father
unless AFTER resurrection.

You are correct to say that Jesus never went to heaven until he resurrected. He went to Paradise Luke 23:42. But after his resurrection, all the saints left paradise and went to heaven Matthew 27:52. From that time onwards, all believers who die, go to heaven straight albeit spiritually Acts 7:54-59. The bodies of the saints will still be in the graves until the day of resurrection when their spirits will return and quicken their bodies making them take to be transfigured, changed, translated like the bodies on angels, becoming immortal.


another:

Ok. Spirits dont die. Spirits of animals
go to heaven? Spirits of evil men are in
heaven? That is true, right?

Jesus did not die to save animals my brother. The scripture is silent on animals in this context. I will also be silent on it.

Everyman will be resurrected both saints and sinners John 5:28,29. No sinner will enter heaven or even see it (john 3:3-5)


Not only lazarus but no single person
who was resurrected told any story
about heaven. That is an indication
that they no nothing at all after death.
Eccl. 9;5, 10.

haibe: @ravgach any passage in the old testament to support your claim that when one dies he goes to paradise or hell immediately?

I see you don't really understand the contexts of the new testament.

JMAN05:

I never said it cannot signify any other thing, but you cant interprete it as symbolic and also say it is literal at the same time. Habah!

Again, in scriptural interpretation, you cant say it means protection of there is no other part of the bible the word is used as protection. Of so, then the bible can be used for any kind of interpretation you cough out of your brain. Show in the bible where altar is used as a protection.

I think you just want to argue on this point. A literal event can be symbolic. For instance when you say a farmer sowed a seed in his farm, that seed can mean the literal seed, a sacrifice or investment. When I said the alter is a place of protection, why is that a strange thing to you? It a thing of common sense. If you think an alter is a place of power, why do you think it is not a place of protection? If you accept an alter to be a place of prayer, why do you find it hard to accept that it a place of protection? You are looking for a Bible passage to support my assertion? Please do not look too far. I have so many Bible passage but I want to refer you back to Revelation 6:9-11. In the passage, the spirits of the departed saints were seen by John the beloved in heaven under the alter. The alter was spiritually literally real and it symbol of protection for the saints until their blood is avenged. Why did I say it symbolized protection? It was because of the answer the Lord gave them as their request for revenge: Verse 11 "Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer..." The word "Wait a little longer" indicates that they were being kept in a place of safety. The alter for these souls, symbolizes protection.


That place is only restating what gen. 2:7 says. I have asked you where Adam went to and you are still dancing around it. So Adam went to God? Then death is no longer a bad thing.

Let's even look at Genesis 2:7 "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul". Please take your time and read this passage very well. Forget what you may have been taught in the past. Look at it objectively and you will find something enlightening. For me after reading it, I found the following:
1. When God made man he was lifeless
2. God breathed into him
3. He started living
4. The breath was the cause of his life and not his life (that is why it is a miracle)

Let me use this illustration I have used earlier to still illustrate this: If you lived in a village where people make fire with firewood and you have to use your mouth to blow the firewood until it is ignited, will you be right to say that the fire was your breath?

God's breath miraculously created blood and special water that filled the clay-made arteries and valves which kick-started the equally clay-made heart to start beating that resulted into a brand new life! This is so glorious. It is not that breath of God that is still in the nostril of man up till today. Man has a miraculous life that God made supernaturally.

On your question of whether death is a bad thing, I want you to know that death is both good and bad depending on who is dying. To the believer, it is a glorious thing but to the sinner is a sorrowful thing. Adam and Eve are in heaven as we speak.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."

Tell me, of what use is this advise if after your death, you still go to heaven with your consciousness? If when we die, we go to heaven, then tell me the rationale behind the advise. Is heaven a place of disadvantage compared to the earth?

Ecclesiates 9:10 is stating the obvious. When the spirit leaves the body and goes to heaven (in this dispensation) if the person was a believer according to Ecclesiastes 12:7, the body is unconscious and without knowledge. Please do not confuse these things.


When somebody is alive somewhere, you cant say he doesnt exist.

We read:

1 Corinthians 15:50 KJV
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

1) If you interprete that when one dies he spirit goes to God, are you not saying that corruption has inherited incorruption cos that will mean that evil one's souls are in heaven too? How can this be my brother. The body is still in the grave and has seen corruption. The spirit is being kept until the resurrection. The spirit has no corruption at all that is why they are called saints. A saint has no spiritual corruption at all.


2) if you say the spirit will give life to the flesh, for what purpose, will flesh and blood inherit the kingdom of God? Is it not only spirits that will inherit it?

The purpose is that now believers go the heaven spiritually not yet gloried not with their bodies. Now it is partial then it shall be full
"Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely". I Corinthians 13:12.

At the fullness of all things, on that resurrection morning, the spirits of the saints will come and join their bodies and they will come out of their graves and then they will be translated just as Enoch and our Lord Jesus was. No difference! Please do not forget that there will still be people living at that time. Those people will be translated, changed, transfigured just the same way as those whose bodies have been resurrected and everyone of them will be heaven bound with Christ. [color=#990000]That is when I Corinthians 15:52-54 will be fulfilled.

[/color]


1 Corinthians 15:52-54 KJV
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. [53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. [54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

From the above verse, this is the area immortality appeared in the bible for the dead.

1) if you say that we are inherently immortal, why then do we[b] put on [/b]immortality?

2) if we have an immortal soul, it also means that we have an incorruptible soul( if you say no, then you are not being consistent). Then why put on incorruptibility?

3. Did you notice that it was when the saints put on immortality that "death will be swallowed forever" because no one will die again?

If it is only spirits that will inherit heaven according to the above, and if our spirits do not die with us, then why did that verse say death is swallowed forever in Christ presence? If we follow your doctrine, cant we say that death is already swallowed forever, after all we live on after death?

1 Corinthians 15:18 KJV
Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Why could Paul say that our faith is in vain if the dead are not to be raised up? Will that make sense if after death, our souls keep on living in heaven?



Is this place not in agreement with the formular I gave in the outset? Lifeless soul + the breath of life = living soul?

Did the breath have life before it came to the flesh?

Part2



First the crowd of witnesses he was referring to are not christians but righteous men like moses, abraham etc.

However at heb. 12:23, he was discussing a different thing, this time he is talking about the new covenant by virtue of christ's blood.

We read:

Hebrews 12:21-24 KJV
And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake [22] [b]But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, [23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men[ones] made perfect, [24] And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.[/b]

At verse 21 he quoted what happened as God was given the law convenant. But note how verse 22 started (bolded). "BUT YOU" have approached mout Zion, not sinai, and Heaven jerusalem, not earthly. In verse 24 he mentioned about a different convenant, Jesus'. So from verse 22 is not talking about those who lived before christ. By spirits he means the spiritual lives of anointed ones who has been declared righteous. Compare 12:9.



There is no such thing. Paul's statement of spirits is referring to the spiritual lives his readers live. The congregation of first born are they themselves who are living. Their names has been enrolled in the heaven.

Regarding the faithful men of old, Paul writes,

Hebrews 11:39-40 KJV
And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: [40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

So the faithful men never received the promise, and they cant be perfect apart from the saints. When will the saints go to heaven?

The promise they did not receive is the coming of Christ which they had look forward to seeing. "Many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them, and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them" (Matthew 13:17). It is called 'PROMISE' not promises. They received all the promises God gave them. For instance Abraham had a son as God promised him.


1 Corinthians 15:23 KJV
"But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

So it is during his coming that the saints will smell heaven, not before.

Jesus never went to his father unless AFTER resurrection.

You are just muddling things up here. You are confusing those who want to understand the scriptures as it is written. In Hebrews 12:21-24:
The Apostle was addressing Christian jews. He was basically comparing Judaism with the faith in Christ. He was comparing the Heavenly Jerusalem with was the hope of the believers with the Mount from which Moses received the law. Remember that these Jews hold Moses and the Law sacred. He took out time to describe the Heavenly Jerusalem to these Christian Jews. He now brought out some of the outstanding features of this heaven which is now their hope compared to the Mount they hold sacred. These were some of the things he highlighted:
1. Mount Zion - Heavenly Jerusalem
2. Myriads of Angels
3. General Assembly (The elders etc.) - The Church
4. God, Judge of all
5. The Spirits of Just Men
6. Jesus Christ
7. The Blood of Jesus
There is no way these can be talking about the Christian Jews themselves. It is talking about Heaven (Mount Zion, Heavenly Jerusalem). It is as clear as clear itself. You can only distort it but the truth stands out. Let us be a bit truthful in the things we say.


Part3

My bro, if not for one thing, I would have said your utterance on bold is satanic. You better renounce that statement immediately. The bible is inspired of God not solomon. All scripture is written by his inspiration. Meanwhile he never regretted any those utterance he made.
I will not join issues with you here but I will let you know if you do not know that all scripture is by God's inspiration but the inspiration was not at once. God released his knowledge as his prophets continue to grow and mature in Him. For instance what was revealed to Solomon in Chapter 4 was different from what was revealed in Chapter 7 and 9 and also different from what he was made to understand in Chapter 12. The inspiration was progressive! It is just very clear. I have not said it was not an inspiration. I only said that the final state of man after death was not revealed to him until chapter 12 of Ecclesiates


Secondly, what i quoted for you is psalms not proverbs. After go and tell your satanic cohort that David wasnt inpired.

Psalm 146:4 KJV
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to
his earth; in that very day his thoughts
perish.

the bolded is referring to the spirit. why say i should give you a quotation again?

As for ecclessiastes 3, solomon was asking a rhetoric question, showing that we know nothing after death. Read verse 22. He wasnt in doubt at all.

Go and give Psalm 146:4 to a primary school pupil and allow him to read it to you, you will see how explicit the understanding there is. Let me assist you a bit. I hope you will acknowledge the truth here:
HIS (the dead man's) breath goeth forth, HE (the dead person) returneth to HIS (the dead person's) earth; in that very day HIS (the dead person's) thoughts perish. 'HE' there does not in any sense at all show or tries to show that the spirit of a man dies in his grave with him.

You are deceiving your mind. Then David wasnt inspired when he said his?

I ask you:

Does the spirit of animals also go to live in heaven?

Part4



Are you a learner or something? Dont you know what an illustration is? I am using an electricity to explain something to you and you are here exposing yourself.

Ok. Spirits dont die. Spirits of animals go to heaven? Spirits of evil men are in heaven? That is true, right?

Not only lazarus but no single person who was resurrected told any story about heaven. That is an indication that they no nothing at all after death. Eccl. 9;5, 10.

Apostle Paul never died but he saw in vision. That cant help ur point.