₦airaland Forum

ElsonMorali:
For a thing to be, it has to be caused. This is only true regarding all created beings, whether in this plane of existence If matter or in other planes of existence which we even know nothing of.

If you say He doesn't exist because he wasn't created, you are equating Him to you as well as denying your own existence.

You can't then make sense If your own existence.

At the beginning of our discussion, If you remember, I wrote that proof of God's existence (for us) is embedded in our own existence.

There's no way you look at yourself and not see that the human being has been intelligently crafted. And intelligence can only be attributed to a living being.

If like some atheists and God haters say, that we were created by some aliens from outer space, the next logical question jumps right at you. Who created them aliens?

You have to get by that point where you realize that there must there should be, there IS an uncreated Creator who has always existed and will always exist.

NigerianScholar:
see the answer to your question.





just leave this question unanswered because you will end up chasing shadows

ElsonMorali:
That's exactly my point.

It is easier to teach a 3 year-old the finer aspects of Nuclear Thermo Dynamic Astrophysics than trying to understand even one of the Mysteries of God and His Perfections.

It will take all of eternity for the most brilliant human minds combined with the best angelics minds to even begin plumbing the depth of God.

We can only keep trying to know Him.

For to know Him is to Love Him and to Love Him comes the unquenchable desire to serve Him.

And that is why we exist. The only reason we are in this world. To know, love and serve Him.

Every other thing is by the way.

NigerianScholar:
Look to the sky at night and see if you can know the number of stars there. If you do your mind should be able to decipher the answer to that question


Let me try another approach. We live in a three dimensional world(space) everything has length bredth and width. And we can access any point in the 3 dimension as far as you know the coordinates. I cam access my kitchen, lagos, ibadan etc. Imagine God in a 4 dimensional world. With space and time. Imagine being able to access any point in time the same way you can access anywhere around you. Based on this. GOD ALWAYS EXISTS. He has no beginning or end. You can ask further questions.


This is just mg opinion though.

Cc teelaw4lif respect55

NigerianScholar:
let me try and explain this with mathematics
Time


-infinity 34bc 2017ad. 3017ad. + infinity





Can you quantify infinity. NO.



God exists between that timeline and our minds cant understand it

ElsonMorali:
You are approaching this from the wrong perspective.

You are asking the wrong questions.

Here, Let me help you:

Start with yourself, How did you come to be born? Because of daddy and mommy, right?

So, How did daddy and mommy come to be? Because of their own parents right?

So, If you're patient and tenacious enough, you'll get to a point where you'll have to pick between the concept of Adam and Eve or evolution (man being a tadpole in some slimy muck and then stepping out unto dry land, adapting and becoming man.

Then logically our next question should be... that's right, where did that tadpole, or whatever humans evolved from came from?

If you keep this up, you'll prolly be close to 90 years old by the time to get to the big bang.

So, you'll then ask yourself, what is the big bang? WHO made it bang?

Nothing cannot just bang all by itself. Something or someone must have made it bang.

Who is that person, or force?

Then you'll start the Almighty loop. Who created the person that created the person that created... I'll leave you now to continue the loop yourself...

ElsonMorali:
You can only ask this question because you are subconsciously attributing the qualities of a created being to God.

Just like your mind finds it difficult to grasp the idea or picture How a square-circle or a triangle-square or even a black light or white shadow would look like, (because you haven't seen one before in this life), so also your mind will find it impossible to grasp the concept of an uncreated Being, simply because everything you've always seen and known were created. Your clothes, your house, your car, heck we even rear animals and plants for food.

Once you can step outside of that limitation of your mind concerning God being the uncreated Creator, then you'll have a eureka moment. And that begins your journey in search for God.

I can only Hope Seun will join you in this journey.

OtemAtum:
BThis is a question we should have asked more than 100 years back. I guess we are just waking up to ask it now.

alanka:
so, if you don't ask them to make finding then it means you tought they the fact about who created God or are you saying the answer is red made in their brain?

The greatest help anyone can for this people don't drag them into whatever they do not want. They know they would be responsible to their words, so give them chance to hold back whatever they wish to hold back.

You can be equity of keeping silent but you can be quicty ...

alanka:
can strive to know anything you want in life but don't let it hang on others, don't let it cost anyone, researches do not have limitation it goes on as far as you exists.

Especially when it costs troubles, fights...intelligent people when they get to a place they passive the environment well before action

Make research, don't hang it on anyone here so somebody does say what he does not want to say.

If also you are a good reader, an intellectual, you would have seen that I did not in anyway say someone should make findings.

ElsonMorali:
And it's a question that keeps on repeating ad infinitum.

If you ask, who created matter, what would you say?

Somebody created matter. If you say the big bang, what banged? And who made whatever bang, bang?

So next you ask who created the person who made the big bang, bang?

Whoever created that person must have been created by someone. Who created that someone? Ad infinitum.

So, there must be someone who has always existed, who wasn't created and there was a time he never was, He indeed created everything that exists.

Do you honestly look at yourself and think that you are a product of accidental creation?

It's just like saying that a whirlwind swept through a scrap yard and assembled a Ferrari!

ElsonMorali:
You probably didn't read my response.

The answer is nobody.

It is a very simple answer But one that is complicated for atheists.

ElsonMorali:
That's exactly where the problem is, isn't it?

You are equating God to material creatures.

We have always existed in TIME and SPACE. That is the only realm we can remember. That's why whenever we think about the concept of God, we always think in terms which we understand, TIME and SPACE.

Yet, God who created time and space is himself outside of time and space.

Lemme give you an example to show you that time is an illusion.

(I Hope your imaginative powers are quite strong)

Imagine yourself floating off to space from the earth.

Then you're in space floating and looking at the earth rotate and revolve around the sun.

For you in space, there's no sunrise or sundown. Everywhere is dark and you can see the earth's movement and not be affected by it. There's no way for you to know what time it is because your wristwatch would be useless and the sun is stationary from where you're observing it. So no sunrise or sunset where you are.

Now If you can't imagine that, it will be even difficult to explain that space as we know it is a construct of our minds. Our manas mind.

I Hope haven't lost you yet.

Zita55:
I believe, the answers are mystery.....

alanka:
can strive to know anything you want in life but don't let it hang on others, don't let it cost anyone, researches do not have limitation it goes on as far as you exists.

Especially when it costs troubles, fights...intelligent people when they get to a place they passive the environment well before action

Make research, don't hang it on anyone here so somebody does say what he does not want to say. My brother, making an inquiry is not tantamount to hanging one's problem on others. Come to think of it, why are u pleading on their behalf? Nobody else is complaining but u.

If also you are a good reader, an intellectual, you would have seen that I did not in anyway say someone should make findings.

ilynem:
So how will you describe the person who created time?

ilynem:
I have no idea. The question was who created God. And my answer is that someone who isn't limited by time, space and matter can't be created and that person is God

AlvanT:
My guy my definition of intelligence is the 'measure of curiosity'...atheism is on the rise in Nigeria because things are falling apart,the so called church cannot quench the thirst of our youth nowadays,so they're seeking answers elsewhere.It was in my quest for the truth that I knew that Religion personified God,the Universal law is love which Jesus commanded "love your neighbor as yourself".The cosmic God does not give a damn how you leave your life,just do good to your fellow man and let love lead the way.Be careful of anyone telling you "God wants this or that"..."Satan wants this or
that",check well it is them that actually want it,man can manifest himself either as God or Devil because they are both different sides of the same coin.You get my drift?

ilynem:
You still have a flawed knowledge of what God is. So if someone created God, then why is He worth worshiping since he was created like the rest of us? Before there was time, space and matter, there was nothing.

ElsonMorali:
No it's not contradictory.

That you don't know God fully doesn't mean you can't know a little about him.

There are aspects, revealed to man That we know about him.

He is a Mystery who's depth can not be fathomed by even the most brilliant of created mind, human or angelic. The day you know your Creator fully is the day you become his equal.

Proof of his existence is buried in our own existence.

There was a time there was nothing, yet God existed even then. Otherwise, you'd ask, who started everything off anyway.

ilynem:
So how will you describe the person who created time?

ilynem:
That's the issue. That beginning has no beginning because it is outside time which was created by God.

ilynem:
It must have started. Based on time, right?

alanka:
symptoms of evil is when people are very sure of no answer either bablically or scientifically but you want to use all means to drag them to say or do what they don't want to.

If you check nairaland, threads like this are many what ended the thread? Insult, abuse, threat...at the end they did not get anything out of it but being banned.

Now you came with it they said no, you just want to force into issue that had been discussed almost every year, which I am very sure you know.

Now if I say i created God will you accept? If I say nature created God will you accept? If I say God created God will you accept? You will want me to tell you how do I know? If I now say I was there when God created God will it sound good to you? No.

But if you will accept any of above options then you should is your cup of tea. All will again end up to be argument, insult, abuse, thread just as the other ones went.

If science says this earth is 8 billion years old and the oldest man on earth is less than 200 years it means no man on earth was able to see, or talk to people who lived 500 years ago but you want them to tell you who created God.

If God created a property that worth 8 billion years old and the highest age of the occupant is 150 years is it not a sign of madness for a 150 years old man to be asking another 150 years old man who created God that created world that is 8 billion years

ilynem:
That's the issue. That beginning has no beginning because it is outside time which was created by God.

AlvanT:
Ignorance breeds fear which in turn breeds hate,ignorance is a fertile ground for insecurity,it waters the ego on the contrary knowledge breeds light,love,tolerance and understanding.Haven't you wondered why our top religious leaders wine and dine together,e.g christian and islamic clerics,okay you watch on the news about how Pope Francis frequents the middle east but we can't say the same for our grassroot religious institution members,go to the core North and scream "Jesus is Lord" and risk being stoned to death.The more people are exposed to the truth they become less uncertain and hostile.If this top tier leaders can expose thier flock to the truth and not use them as pawns for control.

ilynem:
The question is flawed not in the sense that is wrong to ask, but in the sense that you do not know the nature of God. God created Time, space and matter. In the Beginning (time), God created the Heaven (space) and the earth (matter). These three must be created at the same time or else if you create matter alone which space will you put it? If you create space alone, what time did you create it? What is time without space and matter?
Now the creator of these three things (time, space and matter) should not be limited by it. If you created your phone, you are not limited by the phone. You are independent of the phone. So someone who created time should not be limited by it. Hence He has not beginning nor end. Instead He is the beginning and the end. He created space so he shouldn't be limited by it. That's why He is omnipresent. He created matter and so not limited to it.
So the question of "who created God" is born out of the fallacious thinking that God is limited by His creation when He is not.

Wilgrea7:
my reference to the circle wasn't whether it popped out of existence..

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/Circle_-_black_simple.svg/500px-Circle_-_black_simple.svg.png

this is the point I'm trying to make.. can you point the beginning or the end of the circle?

AlvanT:
biological things/being and not events I mean,so which creature have man not known how to subdue or control?

Wilgrea7:
going by what you said, robots don't exist..

AlvanT:
They'll surely answer for it someday,"knowledge is power" they say,have this knowledge and bathe people in ignorance they'll surely depend on you for the rest of thier lives.They don't want thier members to know what they know,no wonder in some churches prayer warriors can't even heal the sick except the pastor himself.They'll answer to this,as we have learnt we must pass on what we know cos every spiritual gift misused we'll answer for it.

Wilgrea7:
no