₦airaland Forum

davien:
No, if everything has to have a first then what was the first thing that allowed the creator to exist?

If out of ignorance you believe there is a first thing that allowed the creator to exist, can you explain how the thing came into existence? How else do you want me to explain to you that every theory in the universe is a mystery? For you to ask this question after the explanation I gave you it means you know nothing about science. Go and do your findings properly before asking questions.

Uptownerd:
Fare thee well.

You too.

Uptownerd:
I love you that's why... I would hate to see you continue believing in something 5billion people know is a lie.

Lies indeed, 5 billion people indeed, keep deceiving yourself. Believe whatever makes you sleep well at night. Good night, kid.

Uptownerd:
How you feel about the Flying Spaghetti Monster is exactly how you should feel about your Bible inspired beliefs - imaginary fantasy stories.

At least, now you know that both are the same, you are already on your way to mental liberation.

Why are you giving me this information? Did I force my belief on you?

Uptownerd:
How you feel about the Flying Spaghetti Monster is exactly how you should feel about your Bible inspired beliefs - imaginary fantasy stories.

At least, now you know that both are the same, you are already on your way to mental liberation.

You can keep playing around, there is no school till Monday.

Uptownerd:
Do you know about the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Who is the mother of this child? Carry your child away o, I thought I was talking to an adult but I have just perceived his ignorance.

Uptownerd:
How do you know there is an eternity after death?

I know because Jesus said it.

Uptownerd:
What is the child's crime?

The child did not commit any crime, only God understands the reason for her death but we have to understand that pain and death is a part of life and death is inevitable. When we die is not what matters, where will go after our physical death is what matters or are we going to leave in this world forever?

My great grandmother lived for more than 100 years but she is no more today. No matter what we have or attain in life, we will eventually die. Everything in this world is vanity, so many great scientists, entrepreneurs and important personalities are dead today, even with everything they attained in life.

Death is our entrance to eternity, this world is just like a dream, when we die we will wake up to our reality. Instead of trying to fathom or understand God reasons for doing things, we should focus on preparing for eternity and helping others to prepare, that is our primary mission in this world.

We are just passers-by in this world, so even if I die today, God will not cease to exist and my friends and family will not stop worshipping and serving Him.

We have to try not to breach the principles of life because once those principles are breached problems might occur. We have a part to play in life because the decision we make matters a lot and our wrong decisions are capable of resetting God's initial plan for us.
Even when we try our best and things don't go well for us, we shouldn't try to take our frustration out on God because there is a reason for everything. God has a specific purpose and time for everything (living or non-living). We all are part of his plans.

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8
1.To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

There are certain principles already set by God. There are principles to prevent accidents, there are principles to be healthy, there are principles to be successful and so on but if this principles are breached, a problem might occur. Nothing happens without a reason, we all have our appointed time. May God console the mother of the child.

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8
1.To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

Some people believe there is no God because even ungodly people are getting successful day by day but what they don't understand is that there are laid principles in life. God set those principles Himself, if an ungodly person has the opportunity to follow those principles he will achieve his aims.

There are principles for successful, there are principles to be healthy, there are principles to prevent accidents and so on but if we are Godly and we don't have the opportunity to follow those principles, we can still receive grace to achieve our aims through faith. I started my first business with faith and it was a Miraculous experience for me.

LordReed:
What is the evidence you speak of?

Scientists did not imply or confirm the existence of God but they did not completely rule out the existence of God either, some of them even declares their belief in God.

Why is the laws of the universe customized for our convenience and why does it seem like the universe was prepared to receive us? There are countless planet, some are hot and some are cold. Why does earth have a temperature that is conducive for living?

The universe seems to be carefully planned and designed for us. Galaxies, stars and planets would have failed to form if the vacuum density were much higher than the observed level. Atom (protons, neutrons and electrons) wouldn't have existed if the strength of the interaction between protons and electrons were not as accurate and suitable as it is or if protons were just a little larger than they actually are because they would have been unstable and decomposed into simpler particles. That means we wouldn't have existed.

There are a lot of coincidences and these coincidences are what made life possible, how can I just believe so much coincidences? I prefer to accept that there is a creator (God). Multiverse is believed to explained the fine-tuning but it doesn’t explain the origin of biological information.

How did life come from non-life and how can something that has no brain or inspiration create something that has brain.

All attempts by scientists to simulate the conditions of the early earth and create life in a test tube failed, till today no scientist has been able to make a living organism or a living reproducing orgasm from non-living chemicals.

Workch:
Yes, I am ignorant of how the universe started, I'm not going to created a God to fill that gap without evidence like you want to

This your frustration is personal, it seems you are just trying to take your frustration out on God because you feel He offended you.

I personally find so much joy and happiness in serving God and I am imploring you to serve Him too, this is the best food anyone can give to you. This food is very delicious, if you taste it you will definitely like it. If you feel you have tasted it before, then you might have tasted it the wrong way. I am not forcing you, if you are not convinced, don't eat it, just don't put sand in it for me.

Workch:
Nope, if your different philosophy is fallacious, we have to state it that it's fallacious. Religion by default is a fallacy.

Specifically, God of the gaps fallacy. You have to acknowledge that.

You are only talking out of ignorance but anyway, you are feel to believe whatever makes you sleep well at night.

EmperorHarry:
Philosophy can infact provide definite answers,when said answers are proven to be true.
I totally understand where these sentiments are coming from and I'm liberal minded enough to agree with some points made here. There is however a major flaw in this perspective. There is currently objectively no problem,until proven otherwise,in believing the universe has a creator in order to make sense of the reality you find yourself in but when this belief gets mixed up with religion and human influence, it morphs (with pros and cons) significantly and can evidently create chaos much greater than just "hurting a fly". So if your belief is a source of happiness for you but also chaotic and problematic,then it is valid to question it's utility to the collective. It is also valid to question and point out it's flaws. There shouldn't be absolutes except empirically proven and stands the test of time. So because it makes you happy or it's appealing to you subjectively doesn't make it objectively true.

So here's the thing, science isn't perfect or absolute. Philosophy doesn't claim to have all the answers. They both provide existentially fundamental tools by which humans or conscious beings can navigate,control and understand the universe and everything within it. Just because we don't know it all now doesn't mean we won't. I totally understand your frustration and it's fine if you have little faith in them for reasons which I may or may not be aware of but the bottomline is that regardless of how seemingly inconclusive the answers they provide are currently(to certain questions), it doesn't mean they are not pretty much the most objectively pragmatic methods to figuring everything out especially Science when used in principle.

Only few people do harm in the name of religion but several people do good in the name of religion. Without religion will conflicts not still exist in the world or is it only religious conflict that we have? What about political, ethnic, cultural and social conflicts?

Religion cannot create chaos, even without religion people will still disagree because we think differently and our opinions differ. We all have our beliefs so almost everybody is religious including you because you have a belief, you believe in the belief that there is no God.

Religion is a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, and worldviews that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values.

davien:
So what created the creator?

Every scientific theory about the creation of the universe is still a mystery, why can't you solve those mysteries before asking this type of question. Why is it only the existence of the creator(God) that you are querying? Next time, do your findings properly before typing anything.

If you believe the creator has a creator, then the creator of the creator has to have a creator, stop deceiving yourself, we cannot fathom this. All I know is there have to be a first, there is nothing that does not have a first and without a first a second cannot exist. God is the first. He is eternal, He does not have a beginning or an end because He has always existed.

Workch:
I am philosophically telling that religion is a fallacy of ad ignoratiam (appealing to ignorance). I have not even brought science here.

Religion peddles the premise: since we can't explain this hence God. It's a fallacy in philosophy, because we don't know yet doesn't mean that a god is responsible.
I'm not telling you now to appeal to ignorance but if you get to a renowned logical class, you will realize that "God did it" is fallacious. Religion is "God of the gaps" fallacy and that's why it doesn't require sound logic for you to uphold religion. You only need faith because relgion defies logic and reason.

You have to understand that everybody's philosophy differs and philosophy can only provide questions but it cannot provide definite answers. Since, we cannot wait forever, we can think of a logical answer ourselves. Yes, I believe God did it, can my belief hurt a fly. God is the source of my happiness, what is wrong with being happy? Do what makes you happy and stop trying to put sand in my own food.

Ignorance is lack of knowledge or information. If I am still waiting for philosophy or science to conclude, it means I am ignorant. I am wise enough to know that science and philosophy will never provide the answer so why will I keep waiting forever. A lot of my ancestors met philosophy and science but still today, they have not concluded. I don't even expect anybody to be ignorant in this area, our common sense is meant to allow us ​know that they will never conclude. Only an ignorant person will still wait on philosophy or science for an answer.

Workch:
something is wrong with religion.
Religion is a fallacy of appealing to ignorance in this regard. It's a fallacy of appealing to ignorance in the sense that, it assumes that because we have don't have the answer to a specific phenomenon, there havd to be a supernatural being responsible for it.
In philosophy and logic, this kind of reasoning s flawed and unacceptable. The best philosophical stand point is to say "we don't know yet". By doing this, you avoid every form of fallacies and give room for curiosity to thrive.

There is a difference between philosophy and science. Philosophy generates knowledge through thinking but science generates knowledge by observing and experimenting. Philosophy is not as deep as science, it is not capable of providing definite answers, we can only use philosophy to provide new ideas and questions for us to ponder over. For me, science has failed.

Science started a very long time ago, a lot of my ancestors met science but till today scientists are yet to conclude, I cannot keep waiting till I am out of this world. Since those three options have been proving to be possible by scientists, what is wrong with picking the one I am convinced is right? Option C cannot hurt me, whether it is right or not.

Freedom of decision is one of those things that made this world interesting. What makes me happy, might not make you happy because our choices are different and we don't think or act the same way. If religion is banned today, a lot of people might become unhappy and get tired of life.

God is the source of happiness for some of us. If religion is causing harm to me or making me unhappy, nobody will tell me before I reject it, God has helped me a lot. If you don't believe in religion, you don't have to accept it but please don't call it fallacy. If you don't like my food, instead of putting sand in it for me, go and eat your own food.

Is there a punishment for accepting God or is it a crime? If ignorance is the problem? Then allow me to be ignorant because this type of ignorance gives happiness and hope and it is very harmless. I don't even need too much knowledge because I am still doing to die one day and those knowledge will be worthless, what matters is my happiness. If everybody decides to reject God, what good will that do?

KnownUnknown:
The question itself is a leading question. A more valid philosophical question is how the universe came to be. The notion that it was “created” is myopic. Even if there is a creator, what makes you think you can fathom it. I think the biggest problem with religion and how it confuses its adherents is the geocentric nature of the mythologies i.e. “heaven and earth” with everything revolving around our “pale blue dot”


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha00PdKdIJ0

There is nothing wrong with religion. I cannot choose for others but personally I pick Option C, I believe there is a Creator because the creation of the universe looks like a well thought out plan and some evidence are pointing to it.

I needed answers to my questions, that was what led to my search for the Creator.
Who am I? Why am I here? How did I get here? Where did I come from? What is the purpose of my existence? Where am I going? How was I made and how am I functioning? Who is behind the intelligence of all that is in the universe?

I discovered I am part of the creator's plan, so I was eager to know His reason for creating me.

If I believe there is a Creator and I ignore Him, it means I am ungrateful and narrow-minded. He gave life to me as a gift without me even requesting for it, He planned, designed and created this great and lovely universe for our convenience.

Each time, I wake up to see my love ones, I am always very grateful to the Creator. I am still alive dreaming of tomorrow and trying to achieve great things. I am setting goals and planning for the future and I am able to work hard to secure a future for myself and my unborn children, thanks to Him. Even if He refuse to step forward to take the credit, I would have personally searched for Him to show Him my gratitude.

EmperorHarry:
"I don't know" or "I don't know,yet" should be equally valid responses to your shared knowledge.Anyways, here's a few other options that don't quite fit into your model of what's possible or not.
1.This universe is a result of the destruction of a previous universe?
2.This universe is a result of the destruction or death of a higher dimension or being?
3.This universe is the byproduct of things happening in a higher dimension?

All these would be seemingly closer to your option 2,but not quite because these options propose that our universe was not directly created nor create itself like options 2&3 and did not always exist like in option 1.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
You are right the options you provided is similar to Option B, the difference is, it came from something that already existed prior to the time of its creation. I think it is also similar to Option A.
Those options I wrote simplifies any other existing options. It is just like saying, can or can't. All I did was simplify other options and make it easier to comprehend.

EmperorHarry:
If these are the only options then please quit dragging philosophy into it. The very essence of philosophy is born out of curiosity and a desire to find answers to major existential questions and dilemmas,keeping bias to a bare minimum. So,if you created this thread to actually "learn", then these shouldn't be the only options.

Thanks for participating.
I created this thread to share my knowledge and also learn. I only shared what I know, I feel it is either something is created or it has always existed. If you know other options, please share. Share your own philosophy.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

Colossians 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

1 John 5 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

John 10:30 "I and my Father are one."

Jesus is God.

We all have the opportunity to communicate with God directly. If she truly believes in God, she does not need anyone to intercede for her, she can pray with her own mouth. She can also do a medical test to be sure everything is okay.

Yes continue, sex with a married woman is very pleasuring, don't deprive yourself of such an opportunity. People are just too serious, what is wrong with having an affair with another man's wife?

A guy should be able to satisfy is sexual urges, another man can even do the same with your wife in future and you won't even get angry because you know it is normal and very pleasuring, they can even use your matrimonial bed. Your own is just to be praying that she doesn't give you another man's child. Life is not hard, whatever you do will return back to you.

I created this tread to also learn. If you have a reason for believing Option C is impossible, please give your reasons. Some people keep asking that apart from Bible and Quran, what other evidence proofs that there is a creator?

Since Option C is scientifically possible, what are the evidence that proofs that there is no creator? What led to your conclusion. If you can't proof your claim, it means your claim is bias.

If all ladies in Nigeria could reason like Brown Sugar, then ladies would be so loved and respected. There are some countries were ladies are very much respected. In most of those countries, men and women share the responsibilities, women don't just sit around waiting for their men to pay the bills.

These are the only possible options
A. The universe does not need to be created because it has always existed.
B. The universe created itself.
C. The universe must have a creator because it cannot create itself.

We cannot exclude Option B anymore because Workch explained that it is scientifically possible, so let's accept that any of the three options is correct but there is no other possible options aside from these ones.

Since some scientists accept that Option C is also possible. Why do some set of people on nairaland including Seun believe a creator cannot exist?

Workch:
My option is not there.

I don't know

Okay, thanks for participating.

Workch:
If you think option B is not possible then you don't understand basic physics.
Things have been seen to come out of nothing in quantum physics. That's why I am telling you that you need evidence first and not solely logic.

We have tonnes of evidence that something can come from nothing in quantum physics. This is even a study niche to understand how the universe started

Thanks for participating. Which is your preferred option? Please simplify, are you picking Option B or you don't know the answer?

A001:
A.

The Universe has always existed because existence has no beginning and end. All things in the universe, including we humans, have always existed in one form or another and even after death, they'll continue to exist in other forms.

Thanks for participating.