₦airaland Forum

TLuzzie:
You're a Christian who believes in Jesus Christ, therefore you must acknowledge his authority. You can play dumb all you want, that doesn't change the fact that you were dishonest in your conversation with CatfishBilly.

His authority (which you know nothing about and are not subject to) is found in HIS SPIRIT and HIS WORD.

HIS WORD is empowered by HIS SPIRIT which now is in us Christians. HIS SPIRIT leads us into THE TRUTH of HIS word for as many as are led by the spirit of God they are the SONS OF GOD.

He is my authority in the truth of HIS WORD. you know nothing of this truth so why bother?

TLuzzie:
Goes to further show how retarded_ you are, since you measure intelligence by grammar. I know what idiots_ like you live on, hence why I must always give you something on which to choke, or how else can you stay relevant, retarded_ schmuck?

understanding the meaning and right application of words is a measure of intelligence for sake of passing across the right message or information.

Like I said, Vitriol isn't intelligence! Spread it around like spittle all day if you wish but it still wouldn't show how intelligent you are.

TLuzzie:
I wasn't born an atheist, mumu. I know exactly what Christianity is, and you must be HONEST and think like one if you claim to be a Christian.

Well once you were under the authority of Jesus and now you no longer are simply because you so not subscribe to him or his ways so why then do you take Jesus seriously on behalf of those who still are under his authority?

Atheists don't do that! Simply because Jesus does not exist to them so how would his authority exist?

TLuzzie:
You're the dim-witted retard_.

Retard_ and dim-witted mean the same thing. Shows who the retard_ really is.

TLuzzie:
Moron_. I could see you've been civil in all your posts, especially when you told JackBizzle that "you can't begin to measure his level of RETARDATION". Disgusting hypocrite.

Isn't he dim-witted? So far he has shown it everywhere here.

JackBizzle:
Just look at the bold.

Why are you so dull?

Debates are started with questions.

In atheist vs christian debates, they are all started with questions.
-is there a god?
-has religion done more harm than good?


Please, swerve with your foolishness

Oh shut up!

When questions arise from the opposer or supporter in debates they ALWAYS include their arguments which show why their questions are VALID.

I guess you were not paying attention in school.

Take correction and MAKE CORRECTIONS.

TLuzzie:
She's irredeemably retarded_.

Vitriol isn't intelligence! It simply shows rancidity.

TLuzzie:
Senseless idiot_. I'm sure I was ranting when I made a congratulatory post on your thread. You're irredeemably foolish. And because you're subhuman, I'll repeat this one last time, both Christians and atheists have been opening threads since time immemorial on this forum to throw questions at one another, without anyone complaining. If YOU have problem with that, kindly FUCK_ OFF and leave the thread for those who don't. If after reading this you still don't comprehend my point, then you need a lobotomy.

Shut the fuck_ up! Jesus is the foremost authority in Christianity, mumu.

As long as you claim to be a Christian, you cannot contradict Jesus' position as stated CLEARLY and UNAMBIGIOUSLY in the scriptures, no matter what kind of evil spirit you're being possessed by.

Stop spitting out the accumulated sh!t in your skull. Serve as a trash bin for some more days.

But you are an atheist. Why do you take Jesus seriously on behalf of Christians?

JackBizzle:
You are wasting your time. Spacetacular is not open to reason and could possibly be trolling.

How can someone see 5 straightforward questions and then be claiming that there is no evidence for the argument? Is questioning a statement an argument? When did questions based on what is stated in the bible need evidence? Did Jesus not rise again in the bible?

Are you normally this dense or this is just a one time thing.

You claimed you wanted a "CIVIL DEBATE". What part of the word "DEBATE" do you not understand?

Debates have to do with arguments and not questions. If you do have questions then debates entail you back them up with arguments.

This was your question about Jesus rising from the dead.

"As a biologist, how do you explain Jesus rising from the dead, when you know that a dead body can't rise again especially after 3 days?"

You said WHEN YOU KNOW! when WHO knows? Christians or you Atheists?

If you based your WHEN YOU KNOW on everyone or just atheists then show us your arguments defending this position.

I have noticed a Trend with you. YOU THINK YOU ARE INTELLIGENT BUT THAT IS YOU TELLING YOURSELF A LIE.

TLuzzie:
Bullsh!t

He told you to SWERVE. This is his thread. If you have issues with his presentation, FUCK_ OFF! He didn't invite you. He owes you no explanation. And of course, there's no crux to the topic simply because you said so. Other Christians already started responding before you began spewing your nonsense. This is not the first time an atheist will open a thread and throw questions at Christians, and the Christians have done the same many times in the past. No one complained, so what's your stress?

Pure baloney. Heap of bullocks.

I don't think I ever said you discussed anything other than prayer. Your responses were dishonest. "Every sensible person could see that".

Pile of batsh!t.

Jesus is the foremost authority. Even his apostles can't contradict him, let alone you. Anyone who contradicts him MUST be wrong. Finito.

Absolute horsesh!t.

I am sure you were glad that other Christians responded before asking WHY the questions were asked in the first place so the convener can give his arguments. You are actually pissed now because things didn't quite go the way you hoped it would so you would have room to mock and rant senselessly as you have been known to do on each and every comment you make.

So Jesus is the foremost authority recognised by who? You are an atheist remember?

Those who recognise Jesus as "their" authority have been given his spirit to enable HIS TRUTH be revealed to them. I have that revelation and you can call it a pile of dung if that makes you happy but it wouldn't change the revelation of that truth I know and which you do not subscribe to yet lay claim that Jesus is the final authority as an atheist.

Those spikes must be digging in rather deep.

TLuzzie:
Have you ever heard of people who put faith healing over medical science because they believe in the efficacy of prayer and have absolute faith in it, as demanded by Jesus? Do you know what tends to be the end result? Many Christian parents have KILLED their babies because they trust Jesus that their prayers will work, and as a Christian you can't reprimand them for this behaviour since they simply followed the teachings of your religion, which you've been trying to deny here, because you know that it is HARMFUL bullsh!t! Science and Religion may be seperate like you said, but [color=darkblue]what happens when they CLASH[/color]? As a Christian doctor (to be), whose side will you take? That of science or religion? This is the entire thrust of JackBizzle's challenge. He merely gave those questions in page 1 to make you catch a glimpse of what he's getting at. Those questions were NOT the main thing. But some Spacetacular was 'too smart' to get the crux of the thread, and was busy jumping around painting the whole place in reeking blood as she suffers menstrual cramps, accusing everyone of illogic, only to end up exhibiting gross dishonesty in her 'debate' with CatfishBilly.

Again, I ask, whose side do you take when Science and religion CLASH? To the best of my knowledge, [color=darkgreen]Science has ALWAYS emerged victorious whenever such happens[/color].

Learn to speak without sounding like you are sitting on spikes.

First of all there was no "crux" to the thread. There would have been a "crux" if an argument was placed as back up to the questions asked. You need not be the spokesperson for Jack. I believe he is capable of speaking for himself although he NEVER did that even up till this moment but has simply been acting like a malevolent cunning fox up till last night.

Secondly, the entire opening questions were dishonest for lack of an argument from the convener as proper "civil" debates follow.

Thirdly if you had carefully followed my conversation with catfishbilly you would realise that we focused entirely on PRAYER and never strayed from that and my responses were specific to that via the scriptures.

I never exhibited dishonesty especially when I began by trying to stop Jack from being dishonest. I wasn't the only one who observed his dishonest approach and I wonder why and how you convinced yourself that I was being dishonest.

Even when I used the word WORK from Scripture to mean RELATIONSHIP, Mr hopefullandlord felt I was being dishonest which speaks volumes about the scope of reasoning some persons are limited to. I had to properly clear his problem with a simple scriptural explanatory guide.

You need to get off those spikes you are sitting on.

IKC10:
What a wonderful post and a lesson. God bless your career, ministry and life. Keep it up dear!

God bless you as well. Thank you.

hopefulLandlord:
I don't like debating dishonest points, so "works" is now "relationship"

okay, I'm done

Do you see why your natural mind cannot fathom the things of the spirit?

Works is LOVE IN ACTION.

love in action is RELATIONSHIP

when the Bible talks about WORKS it's referring to acts of RIGHTEOUSNESS. Can a man be righteous without the Lifestyle of Jesus being in Him?

What was the lifestyle of Jesus? Acts 10 Vs 38

"How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good....."

He went about DOING GOOD (that is works and relationship).

hopefulLandlord:
And Jesus answered and said to them, “Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ it will happen. “And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.” (Matthew 21:21-22)

Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst. (Matthew 18:19-20)

Amen, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it shall be done for him. Therefore I tell you, all that you ask for in prayer, believe that you will receive it and it shall be yours. (Mark 11:24-25)

And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it. (John 14:13-14)

With all these passages claiming that if they have even the smallest amount of faith (Matthew 17:20 For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.)then whatever you ask for in prayer will be granted

the above verses are very clear, what you are doing now is adding some condition and even saying it won't be right if those verses were true cuz it would make your god a vending machine

I'm now asking if you're in an alternate universe where everything Christians ask for comes to pass as said in the above verses, would you think it shouldn't be like that? would you therefore regard your god as vending machine or some stupid parent like you errr the author did in your copied post?

Sorry but you are putting the cart before the horse.

The Disciples asked him to teach them how to pray and he deliberately worded THE LORDS PRAYER that way so they would know the FOUNDATION of prayer.

Faith isn't the foundation. The foundation is relationship. This is why the Bible says FAITH WITHOUT WORKS (RELATIONSHIP) IS DEAD!

what are the works or relationship? How can I say I love God whom I have not seen when I do not love the people I see.

What are the works or relationship? 1st Corinthians 13 Vs 1- 8

If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

There are so many to point at but the summary of them all is RELATIONSHIP with God first before all else.

CatfishBilly:
Jesus actually presented himself as a cosmic vending machine.
The new testament is littered with passages to that effect.
Unless you're choosing not to look at it from that angle, then that would firmly be your choice, not what the scriptures say.

Read above.

hopefulLandlord:
that would tally totally with what Jesus said many times in the new testament but reality made you think such would be absurd, you're tailoring it with reality in order to make some sense out of it

eg, what if every Christian with faith gets everything they ask for in prayer? what if that's how reality is? would you turn around and talk about how its not supposed to be like that and your god is a vending machine?

Sorry that was not what Jesus implied. Jesus focused on RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD!

Build it, Love Him, Trust Him, Desire HIS will, Be Led by HIS Spirit etc. Prayer should come from that relationship.

In the Lords Prayer notice it began with WORDS OF RELATIONSHIP.

" Our Father which art in Heaven, Hallowed be they name "

Then it moved to trusting God and His will.

" Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven"

Those preceded personal needs and desires.

"Give us this day our daily bread..... "

The focus of Jesus in Prayer was on RELATIONSHIP.

CatfishBilly:
I've dropped the Templeton foundation/Harvard prayer experiment, from which I came to the conclusion that prayers are futile in the face of an incompetent doctor.

You still haven't answered the question.

And I have shown you that Prayer cannot be experimented upon. So the Templeton foundation prayer experiment isn't evidence as its impersonal to you. Below is an analysis of the experiment.

"The problem with the Templeton prayer study was based in the hypothesis itself: if we pray for someone then God will intervene in some supernatural way to restore a person’s health. No doubt this is a wonderful concept, but it eliminates the truth about the subject being studied. In the same way that the Prosperity Gospel cult has undercut the basis of Christian belief, this study is based on a lie. Somehow people have come up with this idea that if we ask for something then we can obligate God to deliver.

What kind of God would he be if we were able to say just the right words or preform just the right action that would somehow get God’s attention and thus getting a desired result? This concept makes God not God at all, but rather some cosmic vending machine or light switch

In John chapter 3 Jesus describes to a religious leader, Nicodemus, the nature and action of God. “The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going.” This makes the scientific study more akin to the study of psychology. If God is a volitional being, then we cannot expect that God will perform based on a regular standard and without fail.

In essence this study was not about prayer at all, but about the effect of positive words and their impact on a person’s health.

This is not to deny the power that abides in prayer, but it does stand in the face of a fallacy. Prayer is not about getting our goodies from God, but it is about trusting God to do what is best. It is about building a relationship and leaning on the truth that comes from that relationship.

This study would be just as flawed if it were conducted on child-parent relationships and we expected that the child would receive everything she asked her parents for. No doubt we would think very poorly of a parent who did that and it would be no stretch to expect that the child would be a lazy, fat brat. No doubt we would be in quite a big mess if God also fulfilled every request to our liking. It frankly gives me much satisfaction that this study was a failure, because it strengthens my trust in a God that cannot be contained".

So you see what you say drew you away from God drew another to God in a much stronger way.

Carefully read the observation again.

CatfishBilly:
You said Jackbizzle didn't drop his own argument.
I'm making mine and you're not cool with it?

I'm not dogmatic. If you can drop a convincing argument, I'll reevaluate my faith. I'm like that.
So, what's your answer/explanation?

Arguments without proof are not tenable. I told Jack to drop his arguments along with evidence. Have you done same?

CatfishBilly:
This is a simple question.
Do prayers work in the face of an incompetent doctor?
My answer is NO.
What is your answer?

Since you already had an answer why then did you ask the question? I did say you just want to ask questions with no intention of learning. Did you not just prove me right?

CatfishBilly:
Child was admitted into my unit. The worst cases were handled by the most senior doctors in the unit, I was part of the doctors in the unit, but I wasn't the most senior doctor, so, my competency is irrelevant in this scenario.

So, I ask again, do prayers work in the face of an incompetent doctor?

How am I sure you are not passing the buck now? You could have been the highest ranking that day we wouldn't know simply because we were not there. Same way you had no access to the spiritual to draw natural conclusions based on assumptions.

CatfishBilly:
Prayers work in the face of an incompetent doctor, True or False?

Do you admit to being incompetent that day?

CatfishBilly:
So, it's no longer the failure of prayers, it's now the "incompetence" of the doctor?
Nice turn you did there, Johan Cruyff.

Same way you were swinging the way of God based on assumptions I simply swung the way of your practice based on assumptions as well.

Does it look familiar?

CatfishBilly:
Deep desire not to learn and I'm asking you all these questions?

I heard her ask for forgiveness. I can never forget that woman in my life. She is a member of KingEbukasBlog congregation. She prayed and prayed till she lacked the strength to pray. She is a small part of the reason why I am an atheist today.

Even if the kid died out of my medical "negligence", prayer is supposed to do the unimaginable. It's supposed to move mountains and cast them into the sea, so, a small thing like my medical "negligence" won't stand in the way of the ultimate powers of prayers now, would it?

Your statements which come after your questions show you do not wish to learn but just want to be busy asking redundant questions .

You heard her ask for forgiveness and you monitored her prayer type and duration. All this while giving intensive care to a dying child?

Spare me the stories please.

I guess in this hospital of yours Prayers always went Unanswered under your watch right?

hopefulLandlord:
lol, the copout is obvious, somehow the woman is to blame for the unanswered prayer, first it was the "plan of god" then became "She might be a sinner"

Or perhaps you are also to blame for assuming too much thereby concluding based on assumptions.

You do not believe in spirituality yet you seem to think you know WHY the same spirituality you do not believe in does not work.

CatfishBilly:
All I see are cop outs, I'm sorry.
The condition given by Jesus in the scriptures was faith, for the woman to even think of praying, it means that she had faith that her prayers would make a difference.

If you say she might have been a sinner. In the template of prayers (The Lord's prayer) forgiveness of sins are asked before tabling the matter in prayers, so, the part of sin isn't there.

And Jesus said simply to ask, which she did, she didn't ask amiss.

So, why wasn't she answered?

I counted the length of her prayers. Her kid was in my unit, so, I saw everything.

All I see with you is a gross lack of spiritual understanding and a deep desire not to.

Do you understand and know ALL medical procedures? With deliberate exposure to that which you do not know or understand only then would you understand and know it.

Anybody can pray and thus the ability to pray does not connote relationship with God and I guess you also heard her ask for forgiveness of sins while her kid was under your intensive care right?

Perhaps you were too distracted to offer adequate medical assistance and the kid died due to your medical negligence and you attribute it to failed prayer whose rudiments you lack access to.

JackBizzle:
Look at the bold! And you call yourself a scientist?

I said I have moved on from you. Seek attention somewhere else

JackBizzle:
You misunderstood Betrand Russel.

Anyone can quote. Understanding the meaning is the key

I have moved on from you.

CatfishBilly:
In of my better threads on Nairaland, I shared a story of a mother who prayed for 12 hours non stop for the health of her baby. The child died.
Is that asking amiss?

who kept count of the number of hours this alleged mother prayed for? You?

If you had read and understood my other comment this one would have been totally unnecessary.

Does one put new wine in an old bottle? If you do the old bottle would burst.

You would have been able to make a better informed conclusion about why her prayers went unanswered if you had access to her life and her inner spiritual workings or actions / reactions.

You only saw her outward prayer activities but like I said, prayer has a foundation as enumerated in my other comment.

CatfishBilly:
With all the Bible passages quoted by hopeful.landlord above, it's obvious that prayers are designed for our own personal use, to solve our personal problems.

If everything happens as the will of God, that kind of renders prayers redundant since no matter our prayers, it's God's will that would eventually happen.
Though I don't agree with your position because the Bible was explicit about what prayers are for.

I deliberately ignored mr hopefullandlords comment based on the one above. You see when you wish to learn and understand a thing do not spite it or throw in ridicule just to convince yourself that the mere thought of it is ridiculous.

His manner of approach has already been foreseen and documented in scripture thus,

"But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise".

So I know that the spiritual methodology of prayer was deliberately designed by God so no man can hold it's explanation or be able to rationalise it's workings.

Scripture is a blueprint and not the 3D reality. The reality is now where the Holy Spirit comes in to guide, remind, receive from God and reveal to us plus keep us in God's will.

You were wrong to assert that Prayers are personal. No it is not restricted. It is personal in Love and outwardly expressive in Love and selflessness towards others. Except you wish to tell me that when you were a Christian you carried out prayers of hate and vengeance and prayers of selfishness which would explain why you did not receive. You asked AMISS!

This is the foundation for prayer below found in Romans 12

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;

8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;

11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;

12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;

13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.

14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.

15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.

16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good."

The Holy Spirit is the one who actualises all this in us for without Him we can do nothing. Love is a burden to those who lack the LOVE SPREADER aka the Holy Spirit. But when you Have him, Love becomes your Prayer Trigger.

realtem:
please where can i get hard copy of these books??

Amazon

CatfishBilly:
All science is trying to do with prayers is to determine its efficacy. The mechanism of action is of no concern.

Now, prayers in the Bible is described as goal oriented. Ask and it shall be given to you, Seek and you shall find, Knock and the door would be opened and whatnot.

So trying to study prayers within those goal oriented parameters isn't out of place, don't you think so?

It is out of place!

You cannot exclude prayers from HOW they are received.

That's where rationality comes in for science. Prayer is not restricted to what you ask for because there are SELFISH PRAYERS, GREEDY PRAYERS, DESTRUCTIVE PRAYERS, PRAYER TIMING IN REFERENCE TO GODS WILL, etc

Then there is THE WILL OF GOD .

Where does the will of God overlap with these prayer patterns? Which meets the criteria already provided by God Himself? That is one of the reasons we have the Holy Spirit so He can help us pray ACCORDING to God's will. Can science quantify the Holy Spirit?

You cannot study a car while ignoring the tiniest parts of the car which make all bigger parts work.

CatfishBilly:
How do you reconcile things like the effectiveness of prayers (the Scientific studies) to your own personal philosophies?
It can be difficult to reconcile your ideals with reality, you know.

How can science even think prayer can be studied when they have no idea HOW it works?

Is there a prayer doorway?
Is there an invisible link between people who pray and God?
Are ALL prayer outcomes visible for all to see or personally felt and interpreted.
Is there a definite pattern to prayer AT ALL TIMES.

My realities are mixed in with all that because my prayers are personal experiences which proved itself to me by an inner consciousness of faith.

Science is Rational. Prayer is not.

So rationality tends to "predict" timing, and expects specific answers which are within its limit of rationality. However Prayer isn't rational. Neither can it be discerned that way.

Science is simply attempting to limit the scope of prayer which is beyond what they can handle.