₦airaland Forum

CatfishBilly:
All I see here are just excuses. The Bible was clear on how prayers work.

The Bible offered a guide which you failed to see. I remember teaching you about prayer.

Read below


The Disciples asked him to teach them how to pray and he deliberately worded THE lords prayer that way so they would know the FOUNDATION of prayer.

Faith isn't the foundation. The foundation is relationship. This is why the Bible says FAITH WITHOUT WORKS (RELATIONSHIP) IS DEAD!

what are the works or relationship? How can I say I love God whom I have not seen when I do not love the people I see.

What are the works or relationship? 1st Corinthians 13 Vs 1- 8

If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

There are so many to point at but the summary of them all is RELATIONSHIP with God first before all else.

CatfishBilly:
That's because, it ain't there.
The most famous experiment for the efficacy of prayers was the Templeton foundation prayer experiment and Prayers failed woefully.

Let me post the Templeton fraud exposure again here.

The problem with the templeton prayer study was based in the hypothesis itself: if we pray for someone then God will intervene in some supernatural way to restore a person’s health. No doubt this is a wonderful concept, but it eliminates the truth about the subject being studied. In the same way that the Prosperity Gospel cult has undercut the basis of Christian belief, this study is based on a lie. Somehow people have come up with this idea that if we ask for something then we can obligate God to deliver.

What kind of God would he be if we were able to say just the right words or preform just the right action that would somehow get God’s attention and thus getting a desired result? This concept makes God not God at all, but rather some cosmic vending machine or light switch

In John chapter 3 Jesus describes to a religious leader, Nicodemus, the nature and action of God. “The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going.” This makes the scientific study more akin to the study of psychology. If God is a volitional being, then we cannot expect that God will perform based on a regular standard and without fail.

In essence this study was not about prayer at all, but about the effect of positive words and their impact on a person’s health.

This is not to deny the power that abides in prayer, but it does stand in the face of a fallacy. Prayer is not about getting our goodies from God, but it is about trusting God to do what is best. It is about building a relationship and leaning on the truth that comes from that relationship.

This study would be just as flawed if it were conducted on child-parent relationships and we expected that the child would receive everything she asked her parents for. No doubt we would think very poorly of a parent who did that and it would be no stretch to expect that the child would be a lazy, fat brat. No doubt we would be in quite a big mess if God also fulfilled every request to our liking. It frankly gives me much satisfaction that this study was a failure, because it strengthens my trust in a God that cannot be contained".

branhampaul:
Haha. So your the one to tell others what they are.. Clown!!. Your opinion does not count.

Yeah so does your skepticism. You couldn't even defend what you claimed led you to atheism but went off asking me about nationality, location and belief.

Feel free to prove me wrong.

branhampaul:
What country are you in presently?

I doubt you have anything to say.

dalaman:
Jus show me the part that says that prayers alone works and where it says doctors have recommend and use it.

Read the whole article sir.

I make bold to say that a whole bunch of you who claim to be atheists are simply skeptics and nothing more. None of you can give a profound indisputable epiphany which led you to atheism.

It's like you were simply looking for validation on a position you already had which is called DOUBT.

Doubt is a feeling of uncertainty or lack of conviction and your search for something to validate your doubt produced an illusion of atheism in you while all you still have is doubt which is simply skepticism.

dalaman:
My question to you right from the beginning is to provide any study that shows that prayers ALONE cures people and is recommended and used by doctors in hospitals. You haven't done that. You instead went to bring studies where some religious doctors encouraged their patients to pray (after treating them using other means) etc. This study is of no use because it doesn't say that prayers alone works, heals and is used by any hospital anywhere.

You still have not read the article.

branhampaul:
you'v asked so many questions in this forum, so its my turn to ask you now.. answer me!

I am British but of Nigerian descent

dalaman:
The study does not say that prayer works. It only says sprituality was thought in medical schools and says that there is only one consensus which is that people that attend church live longer. Sprituality is not the same as prayers. The second survey says people claim that they have prayed to heal them selves and others. It doesn't conclude that the claims of the people were scientifically studied and verified. No where does it state that prayers work and is used in the hospitals as you claim. So fail!

You didn't read the study.

If you did you would have seen this

In recent years, several openly religious doctors and researchers have recommended that doctors ask patients about their spiritual beliefs, on the grounds that some studies show religious people are healthier. Some even make a practice of praying with their patients. Dale Matthews, a professor of medicine at Georgetown University, recommends that doctors encourage religious patients “to pray more” to enhance recovery from illness.

And this

It's rock solid — those of us attending church, mosque and temple are living longer lives,” says Michael E. McCullough, associate professor in psychology and religious studies at the University of Miami, Coral Gables. McCullough, who completed a meta-analysis of 42 studies confirming the link, estimates regular religious attendance confers an extra five to seven years of life — and up to 14 years for African-American men.

And this

Herbert Benson, president of the Mind/Body Medical Institute in Chestnut Hill, Mass., and an associate professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School, is an expert on the physical benefits of meditation. He suggests that praying — repeating phrases, words or motions — produces beneficial, stress-reducing physiological effects, such as lowered blood pressure, like those produced by meditation

And this


Indeed, spirituality advocates already have made considerable inroads in medical education. A decade ago, only a handful of the 135 American medical schools offered courses on spirituality and healing. Today 101 medical schools devote at least a portion of some courses to the topic, according to Christina M. Puchalski, director of the George Washington Institute for Spirituality and Health and associate professor of medicine at George Washington University School of Medicine, in Washington, D.C.
“The focus of teaching the courses is rooted in our ethical obligation as physicians and nurses to be attentive to the suffering our patients encounter and to be compassionate; that's why I think they should be taught,” says Puchalski, who developed one of the first such courses in 1992 and sees the spiritual component as part of the medical trend toward treating patients holistically

The study is rich. I only extracted a few things to show YOU DID NOT READ IT.

CatfishBilly:
Prayer has a confounding effect, no one can say with any measure of certainty if it was the prayer that was effective or the drug.
So the best way is to evaluate them in isolation to remove any confounding effect. That was done, we both know how prayers performed.

Read the article.

branhampaul:
Are you a Nigerian?

Gosh! Are natural disasters or Wars or any of those things you mentioned different from country to country?

What has my nationality got to do with anything?

dalaman:
No where does it state that doctors use prayers alone to cure their patients at all. Where in the report does it state that prayers alone are used do cure patients in hospitals in the study?

The first one doesn't even mention prayer but sprituality.

And the second said what?

dalaman:
No where does it state that doctors use prayers alone to cure their patients at all. Where in the report does it state that prayers alone are used do cure patients in hospitals in the study?

You were the one singing the alone tune. I simply wanted you to show me how it is the prayer does not work as you claimed and I showed you that study to show you that it does work be it alone or not.

Have you read it? If not, please do.

dalaman:
Name one hospital that uses and recommends prayers alone for its patents.

Are you calling the report a lie?

This was one quote from it below

A majority of the nation's 135 medical schools now teach about spirituality, and many hospitals ask patients about it. Helping to drive this interest is the claim that religion improves your health. But scientific consensus has been reached on only one finding: Regular churchgoers live longer — and that may be because they're healthier than the homebound to start with

Also this


Alternatives to traditional medicine are becoming increasingly mainstream in the United States. But despite their growing popularity, herbs, massage, homeopathy and other techniques — both ancient and New Age — are not the most widely used forms of alternative medicine.
The most popular form — by far — is prayer. In fact, according to a recently released national survey by the Department of Health and Human Services, 55 percent of Americans say they have prayed to heal themselves or others.

This Kind of refutes catfishbillys "viral" thread

branhampaul:
obviously, your trolling. when you are ready I will answer you.

How would my faith affect your answer except you wish to deviate. Okay let's test it out shall we?

I am a Christian. You can answer now.

dalaman:
Hospitals are the standard places sick people go to the world over if they have access to them. People will always chose hospitals first before any other place. If prayers alone work doctors will recommend and use them.

What is Standard in a place isn't same in others. I suggest you stop making general comments.

Even till today we still force some people to hospitals against their wish. Not everyone subscribes to hospitals. Some have a phobia for hospitals. Some smell death in hospitals. Some actually feel worse when taken to hospitals.

Prayer is increasingly encroaching into medicine

http://library.cqpress.com/cqresearcher/document.php?id=cqresrre2005011400

This is one of the many interesting parts of the site

"majority of the nation's 135 medical schools now teach about spirituality, and many hospitals ask patients about it. Helping to drive this interest is the claim that religion improves your health. But scientific consensus has been reached on only one finding: Regular churchgoers live longer — and that may be because they're healthier than the homebound to start with"

That quote is referring to hospitals In USA.

branhampaul:
it does. answer?

It doesn't! How would my faith disrupt your answer?

Consider me "a listener" and answer the question.

CatfishBilly:
Evidence is immaterial.
What people say when they don't have any shred of evidence.
Just like princessebuka says that his god is immaterial.

The focus wasn't on me. I wouldn't want to shift the focus of my discussion which is what he wanted and that was why I said my evidence is immaterial.

CatfishBilly:
I don't follow anyone, including my friends.
How is that a problem?

But they are your "colleagues " even here on Nairaland. If they are medical colleagues as you allege why not follow them so you can further share medical experiences or advancements?

Leaves a lot to wonder.

dalaman:
There is non to be found anywhere. There is no hospital in the world where prayers alone are used to cure patients. If you know of any just state it.

Are all sick people taken to hospitals? Are all "patients" hospital bound?

You do realise we have outpatients as medical practitioners.

branhampaul:
before i answer your question, which religion do you belong to?

Does it matter?

CatfishBilly:
I should show you a screenshot of my followers too?
You can see who I'm following, not my followers. Followers are private.
You're not keeping up.

But you said he is YOUR FRIEND and somehow you are both also on the same whatsapp and telegram group and he is a "colleague" yet you do not FOLLOW HIM?

catfishbilly!

dalaman:
Dancing alone doesn't cure cancer as such no doctor recommends or uses dancing as a cure for cancer. Same foes for prayer. Prayers alone doesn't cure anybody as such no doctor recommends praters alone or uses it to treat anybody. Yes that is my evidence, if you have any evidence to the contrary from.any hospital that shows that prayers alone cures people out can present it.

I suggest you do some actual digging around and not all you just typed. My evidence is immaterial.

Student125:
And Who is OP to ask for atheist reason to disbelief, then OP should be asked why she beliefs in yahwey , some things can't just be summarized bcoz it didn't all happen in a day.
And what difference will it make if they share them to u, (let me guess so that u can rubbish it that it is baseless and not convincing).
If not for civilization that lead to the discovery of Africa as a continent, thus making whites come to colonize, enslave us physically and force religion so as to enslave us mentally too. Will u all be shouting Yahweh? does that mean all the non believer that died in Africa before the whites came are all going to Yahweh's hell? and remember Africans know what is good and bad before xtianity & islam, we have our laws and punishment for who ever breaks them, they pray and their prayers get answered. The 3 difference between foreign religion and African religion is
1) foreign religion came to rubbish all existing religion
2) foreign religion is well documented and packaged
3)foreign religion had enough resources to spread their belief.
Why did ur Yahweh decided to show himself to just few people in this world (Israelite), he should have shown himself to the whole world at once in 4D(he should have more technological knowledge than our present scientists). Yahway couldn't equip Moses with advance technology to travel between Egypt and Israel easily instead he suffered them for 40years?...
So aside blessing in heaven, give us what your religion brought to us that we don't have before in Africa. like I said don't bombard us with happenings in spiritual realm.
I still stand to believe something created the universe and everything inside, u can say God but my problem is religion. IMO, it is the manner and approach religion portrayed God(perfect being) that made some believe God doesn't exist cuz religion is not perfect(full of errors, questions).

You made a lot of unfounded assumptions here but they are yours to opine.

I have not touched religion or even hinted on ridiculing anyone here but you seem to think I hold that view even after I corrected someone who said they are idiotic and senseless and I said they simply lacked hope.

How did I ridicule?

branhampaul:
Terrorism, War, Slavery, Suffering, Bad Governments, Partiality, Disasters, etcetera.

All those things you listed above are caused by man including a lot of natural disasters. So how did man's recklessness ultimately translate to a blame game for God?

CatfishBilly:
Because the thread was brought to the front page, the guy's one of my follwers on Nairaland here.
Keep on looking for holes, I'm here to debunk all of them.

I am not looking for holes. You are creating them yourself.

You say he is one of your followers on Nairaland but you have no follower on your profile on nairaland. Is there a way to make followers invisible to others?

dalaman:
If prayers work doctors will be praying for their patients instead of undergoing through expensive and tedious medical processes.

Is that all the proof you have?

CatfishBilly:
Since you're finding it difficult to understand it, let me help you.
A friend saw a thread by catfishbilly, brought it to a Telegram and whatsapp group that I'm a member, and posted it there, people read it, and came back to that same group to talk about it.
Get it now?

Now it's a friend? What a slippery slide you are on.

So of all the posts and threads on this website somehow this "friend" happened upon yours. Not that he just saw this thread of yours but he was also A FRIEND who saw it. What are the chances of that happening?

There are over 3million topics on this website and all those topics are on various areas but somehow he came straight to the religious section and straight to your topic.

Do you actually believe yourself now??

CatfishBilly:
I'm not bitter, I'm just saying it as it is.
What exactly do you want? I should show you screenshots of the discussion?

How did they recognise your catfishbilly moniker on whatsapp and telegram when monikers are not used during registration?

branhampaul:
It is unfair if only you is asking the question while I myself isn't asking. so answer my question now; are you christain or muslim?

All I asked from you was the condition of this world that caused you to be an atheist. You are yet to tell me.

dalaman:
If it works, will we be discussing about it? It doesn't work that is why doctors use very expensive equipments and drugs to cure and heal people instead of bowing their heads in prayers. If prayer work doctors won't be using surgeries and other methods to cure people. All they'll do is just pray for people and that will be it. If you disagree then show us the study that says that prayers alone works for people that was conducted by any hospital.

Okay so just like catfishbilly you say prayer NEVER works. Where is your evidence from every doctor and every patient or ex patient in the world?

Do you know what the term IT DOES NOT WORK mean? It means that for a fact there is absolutely no possibility to it working.

I never said Prayers work. IN FACT I haven't even said anything. You and catfishbilly have said everything. So show me your evidence.

CatfishBilly:
Oops, my bad. I wanted to type Last month.
You're now asking for proof?
When you made claims of your qualifications and you were asked for proof, did you offer any?
Take my word for it, the way I took your word for it that you're a surgeon/Paramedic/traumasurgeon/Orthopedician

No need to be bitter. It's the way I know atheists always end up when they are caught. They become bitter and start attacking the person.