₦airaland Forum

Right racism preserves the races. There is no other way to preserve the purity of the races but by right racism.

Kuns:
Our ancestors are more powerful than your God , Shango the God of Thunder and lightening , that is why these pastors are all dying young.

TV01:
I agree with first submission being to the Lord. But I would suggest that the Lords pointer is "wife submit to your husband in all instances" (noting the criminal/sin/blasphemy disclaimer).

TV01:
The difference appears to be in our leaning in determining if the authority of the church trumps the mandate of the husband?

TV01:
I've written something up, It was written before your post, but I think speaks very much to it. I'll post following and continue tomorrow.

Kuns:
The bible is far from complete because there are many missing books.

What were the authors trying to hide from us for example where is the book of War of our Lord Number 21 : 14 and I quote " Wherefore it is said in the book of the wars of the LORD, What he did in the Red sea, and in the brooks of Arnon,"

Why did they hide this book, where is it? What are they hiding from us?

Also where is the book of Jasher?

Joshua 10 : 13
"And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the[b] book of Jasher[/b]?"

The bible actually mentions these books as if you have read them and there are intact. So where are there?

There are many other books missing , so the fact of the matter is that the bible is NOT complete , and therefore not as unique as bible bashers would try to have us believe.

Hey, I am no better the you good people out there , for there are many good christians with hearts of Gold, however, the fact is the bible is not complete.

Don't believe me, check it out for yourself.

Bobbyaf:
I figure this is a broader topic for discussion. Thanks Stimulus!

Bobbyaf:
I'd like to know to what extent can a woman in church participate without contravening any scriptural rules? I have seen a lot of women in various denominations that are allowed to preach and evangelize freely. There have been hundreds of thousands of souls who have come to Christ as a result of their ministry.

How do you view such success? Did they do all that in vain?

TV01:
Presumably the "Apostle" question will be dealt with on this thread at a later stage, or on a completyely different one. No probs.

TV01:
Again, my understanding from scripture is that a wife is subject first and foremost to her husband

TV01:
(unless of course he asks her to do something criminal or blasphemous).

TV01:
It's plain to see that Stimulus is championing an over-arching church authority that subsumes and overides anything a family and more pertinently a husband may decide is best for his family. Indeed, I seem to be hearing that God works through the church (or it's leadership), to determine what is best for families and if families don't adhere or subscribe to church initiatives, they are rebelling against God.

TV01:
That to me is a total misstatement of what Christian life is all about, what a relationship and walk with God entails, and of course a total unbalancing of Family, church and secular life. I begin to see why some people thing their Christian walk is articulated thropugh church and their service or activity to it or in it. Not to my understanding.

TV01:
So as not to be tedious, and in recognition of the fact that you started the thread, may I suggest that you raise a specific question to start the discussion.

TayoD:
Now I am not saying you are wrong, but doesn't that violate her submission to an express demand of her Lord to abstain from sex while fasting and praying?

lafile:
Where is the Hiss icon?

TayoD:
This issue of church authority and man-wife relationship is a very touchy and personal one to me because I have watched a close family virtually disintegrate over it. Believe it or not, I think both of you are right in a sense though I tend to agree more with TV. I find it hard to make a categorical statement, one way or the other because the situation I witnessed was way too complex to be solved by saying to the participants "this is the way, walk ye in it." My advice then was, and still is: "follow the Spirit's leading." I guess that is the best advice from someone who doesn't want to get blamed for the eventual consequences, which either way won't be pleasant!

TayoD:
A married christian woman is in a very interesting position. By God's design, she finds herself under the leadership of two Lords - Christ and her husband. It so happens that the wishes of the two Lords are sometimes contrary to each other, especially if the husband is not born again as in the situation I witnessed.

TayoD:
Now this is closely related to the issues you guys are discussing here. Assuming the church calls out an extensive period of fasting and praying. And according to Paul, fasting must necessarily involve abstinence from sex too. What happens if the husband is feeling randy tonight and wants to 'get it on'? At that point, she will have to make a choice of following the leading of her pastor (inspired by Christ to call out a fast), or submit to her husband for some carnal pleasing activities. What call would you make?

TV01:
And I'm more concerned by family integrity and not your desire to subsume it to "church authority". Feel free to show from scripture that church life has primacy over family life.

TV01:
Again, clearly show from scripture that church life subsumes family life. And also that church authority over a family supercedes the husbands.

TV01:
You mistake submissiveness for responsibility. A man answers to the Lord for his family' welfare. Church does not relieve a man of this responsibility. Likewise it does not supercede his authority. But like I have said, if you can show otherwise, please do. I'd appreciate your defining the limits to this "church over family authority"as well.

TV01:
It's not about fear or submissivenes, it's about responsibility and accoutability. Families and husbands are not submissive to church. They are submissive in church, but still with regard to family integrity.

TV01:
Please stop hammering on about the wife thing. I've done my best to clear that up. Apologies if I wasn't clear earlier, but once again. A wife has one head, her husband. The church gathering does not and cannot overide that. Simple.

TV01:
Both my wife and I are subject in church, but in as much as family takes priority, if I or we feel our family needs time for purposes that do not align with church, that's my/our call.

TV01:
The concerns of "Church Authority" are limited to church. Feel free to substantiate your premise that Church has authority over individual families or it's members, in a way that overrides the scripturally instituted order for the family.

TV01:
I am not defining church authority in terms of issues. Just a husbands responsibility according to his role and authority.

TV01:
And my personal plans (and walk) are not subject to church authority. Church does not determine one's relationship or journey with God.

TV01:
There is nothing to stop a family/household from worshipping directly.

TV01:
The choice of a man and his household to serve the Lord is not predicated on going to church, even if they attend. Commanding one's family after him is not in anyway determined by attending church even if they go.

TV01:
Whilst the "church in your house" may well mean the brethren gathered there, if the brethren was no more than immediate family, relatives and or servants, it still qualifies as church. Family is the basic building block, not church.

TV01:
Open another thread for the Apostle discussion if you please.

TV01:
Church is the Body and where two or more are there He is.

TV01:
Fellowship is not first, foremost or primarily between or with members. It's with the Father & the Son.

TV01:
We tend to typify church by the organisational structure we see today, but it was never such. "Church in your" house signifies that it is first a familial and then community based gathering. What defines church, it's limits or it's existence?

TV01:
I have asked repeatedly and I do so again, what does an Apostle do in this day and age? When is one required? Read Eph 4 through to see the whole point of these functions/roles/offices. Could that be better read vertically (through time) and not necessarily at a point in it?

TV01:
IMHO Paul was the last Apostle. In context I mean establishing the church according to the Lords blueprint. The "Foundational" exercise of establishing the church. Who were the others after Paul? Are there any now? Please identify them. What is it they do exactly?

TV01:
My point as above. The established church requires only teaching and pastoral ministry (leaving out evangelism for our discussion here).

TV01:
In a church setting, I and my wife would be subject to the eldership. That is not to say that the authority of the eldership can be exercised in a manner that I feel negatively affects my family. So if theres a church program and I have other plans for my wife and family' time, as head of my home that is my call and I am responsible for that. Woman to man to Christ is the order. Clearly spelt out in I Cor 11.

TV01:
As I said earlier, the family setting is one thing and the church another. that they dovetail does not compromise the family unit. And the relative importance and sway of the church is not IMHO such as many afford it today, where "pastors influence" can be overly pervasive.

TV01:
I see no contradiction in what I have said. My wife submits to offices or others in assigned roles male or female, but a wifes prime directive is submission to her husband. What's not to understand?

TV01:
~ Put alternatively what you are saying is "Church leadership" has the right to issue any command regardless of what the heads of family may feel is best for their homes?

TV01:
~ The Church authority is limited to the church setting or gathering. But if you can show scripture to show that "Church Authority" supercedes that of the husband and impinges on the home, please do so.

TV01:
I mean just that, that, a household can be considered a church. But I see your point, not always with the fullness of a larger congregation.

TV01:
I believe that there are really only 2 church offices (carrying congregational authority), Elder and Deacon. Both restricted to mature men. There are however roles for women. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I was writing with that distinction in mind, shold've said.

TV01:
He was the last Apostle. But let's not digress, if you would like to discuss, please start a thread.

TV01:
No others to my understanding. But you may think differently. Names please.

TV01:
In a church setting, I would expect my wife to submit to officials.

TV01:
But if sday an official asked her to attend/serve at a program and I had other plans which meant she could not attend, she ain't goin' nowhere. And I don't have to explain either. "Wives submit to your own husbands". CHurch authority does not supercede or negate familial. So likewise if I and/or my wife decided not to let a child of ours partake in some church activity.

TV01:
I hope this clarifies? What is your take? And how doo you feel I am contradicting myself?

TV01:
Paul was the last Apostle. Others may have carried out "Apostolic" (Formative) work in churches, but they did not carry true "Apostolic Authority".

TV01:
Niether do I expect my wife to submit to anyone just because they are male or even a church office holder (I reserve the right of veto).

lobinoxebe:
HELP ME OUT WITH IRAQ AND ALL THESE MUSLIM COUNTRY KILLING EACH OTHER ALL THE NAME OF ISLAM

TV01:
A family is a fully functioning church in it's own right. A church is just a supersized (or collection of families).

church offices are exclusive to males (mature, upright).

Esss:
It could all be explained as coincedental. Jesus just happened to be in the wrong city at the right time. Saddam Hussien was killed on a very significant day for the muslims, Does that qualify him to be a prophet/messiah.

Esss:
So please come up with a much stronger arguement, because a good historian would reap this stuff to shreads

Bobbyaf:
"Then Miriam the prophetess, Aaron’s sister,, "(Exodus 15:20-21). The office of prophecy is no ordinary gift, and here we see a woman playing her role.

Bobbyaf:
When Paul wrote a recommendation for Phoebe he referred to her as a "deacon" and not a deaconess. The greek word for deacon really connotes that of a preacher. In fact Paul used the same word as it related to His ministry. Paul refers to himself as the deacon of the New Covenant.

Bobbyaf:
Note too that the word that is used for Phoebe is the greek equivalent for prostatic, or president or patron, and no doubt this woman was in charge of a christian community. Why else would Paul acknowledge her as such if she weren't playing the role?

Bobbyaf:
I believe we have to make a disctinction between whether in Paul's time gender equality as an issue was societal, or Pauline. I for one don't believe Paul was the problem. I believe the problem stemmed from a societal one, which spilled over in the congregation.

Bobbyaf:
The few instances when Paul had to lay down some principles as to how both men and women should conduct themselves within the congregation have been grossly taken out of context.

Horus:
It is time to eradicate this devil called stimulus .

same410:
Many who professed Christianity lacks knowledge of the bible and like the Bible said, they are on the way to destruction.