₦airaland Forum

truthislight: Revelation is written in symbols and signs.

Why go literal ?

What is your definition of symbols and signs?

truthislight: I dont know what your are up to.

The angels that we are talking about are the ones that sinned in the days of noah.



"And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." (Genesis 6:1-6).
........
^
The sons of God (angels) came down and marry the daughters of men befor the flood.

And your point is what sir?

truthislight: You have a very big problem.

Those fallen angels in Noah's day were refused entrance into heaven and bared from materialiising into humans, but held inbetween in that state.

You are here saying they are in hell ?

Smh for you.

Can literal chains hold spiritual being ?

You have a long way to go.

Can you point to the bible verse that support this theory as written by you?

frosbel: Angels cannot procreate with human beings , this is the stuff of fiction and myth.

@truthislight, Comment on the above by frosbel talking about Sons of God and daughters of men in Noah's time

My papa's slap is MOPOLish, his backhand slap is SOLDIERish. Something Yorubas call Ifoti Oloyi

You can believe what you so desire but the scripture can't be subverted to suit our arguments.

Satan fell with some of the angelic host even before adam was created. They have been working all over the earth seeking whom to devour. They are highly organised into Prinicipalities, Powers and Rulers. They have titles and dominion like Paul told the phillipians. Prince of Persia fought the angel bringing message to Daniel.

Like you suspected I will say, the angels transferred to Tartarus where the ones that messed up with daughters of men and caused evil to multiply through their giant offspring which brought the Noahs flood.

@Frosbel, I am still coming to the main issue although I suspect you have made up your mind on what to believe but for the sake of those who are reading this, it will be like Joshua options, every man will take the one he is convinced to be real. May God help us to maintain our salvation.

Peace

rabzy: Satan fell before adam, the angels fell in the time of noah. Whether others fell at other periods, the bible never revealed. So what do u want to draw from that.

Read this, I emphasis 3, 4 and 9
Revelation 12 vs 3-9
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

rabzy: I have stated clearly with bible verses and explanations why it is not a place but a condition. If it is a place and they are under eternal bonds and torment, how did they escape and possess pple, why did they ask Jesus not to torment them, why did Jesus not send dem bak to tartarus. If they are under bondsand torment in tartarus, what other judgement was peter and jude say they were waiting for, why did they ask Jesus why he wants to torment them before the appointed time.

Now, I can understand where you missed it.

Satans and his angels fall was it before or after adam was created?

rabzy: You have quoted the right wrong source, because it is actually the platonic teachings enforced by hellenization that first corrupted judaism and centuries later xtianity. That is the tartarus of the greeks and that also explains why the hell of the greeks were superimposed into d hell of the later xtians.
Peter only used the word as a vehicle he was not talking about the titans nor trying to bring to his listerners minds all that took place in the tartarus of the greeks. The titans were in a place of darkness, shame and alienation from the gods of olympus. He just used the name as vehicle to carry such thots and that is where the similarity ends

Peter used that word tartarus instead of hades, why?. Yorubas use the word Esu (one of the dieties) as Satan for lack of better word to use. A new very rural Christian community in Asia do not know what bread, so their bible reported 'Jesus is the rice of life' since rice is the only food they can relate with. Peter used Tartarus for a specific reason and any simple mind can easily understand the message he was passing to them.

When Tartarus is used by greeks, they are talking of a place not a condition. Peter said they are being binded in chains, do you bind people in chains and reserve them in chains in a place or just a condition of roaming about like you claimed?

rabzy: Bros I never said tartarus and hell are the same.ihave explained what I believe tartarus is based on biblical experiences.translating tartarus as hell is wrong and jude clearly shows that there is a greater judgement they are waiting for which is greater than the tartaric condition they are.

Sir, I am not asking you want you believe. I am saying let us study the scriptures!!!. Do you now agree Tartarus is not a condition but a place?
Answer that before we come to if Tartarus is hell or not

rabzy: As explained by Jude 6, these angels did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place in order to mislead men. They were theirfore cut off from Gods spiritual light and became debased demons destined for destruction.
Paul called them wicked spirits in 'heavenly places' because they exercise a rule of darkness as evil spirits.
They are not under any torture rather they are the ones tormenting many pple. Jesus encountered a number of them, evidence shows dat they are always seeking pple to infect and possess. Like the one called legion, the one dat wud go and get 7 worst demons and return back to d person it onced possessd and also d ones dat requested they be given permission to enter d swines. These examples shows that they are in a debase condition and have become totally diabolic and are just waiting for destruction.

Can you read those 2 verses (Jude 5 and 6) you are trying to explain gently this time around and link with 2 Peter 2:4 and make another attempt at explaining Tartarus?

I have pasted them to help you avoid the trouble of looking for them

Jude 5 and 6
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day

2 Peter 2:3-4
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment

According to you.
Tartarus(hell) is not a place, it is a spriritual condition of total alienation from the light of God and debasement as outcasts from the heavenly family

frosbel he agreed it is a place and not a condition)

1. 2 Peter 2;4 refers to a holding place for fallen angels. So not sure how this relates to our discussion.
2. Gehenna which Jesus used often refers to the lake of fire

According to wikipedia (I deliberately avoided using definition from respected Biblical Theologians so you won't claim bias)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartarus
Tartarus, or Tartaros (Greek: Τάρταρος, from τάρταρον "tartar encrusting the sides of casks", is the deep abyss in ancient Greek mythology that is used as a dungeon of torment and suffering for the wicked. A part of the underworld and, in turn, below Uranus (sky), Gaia (earth), and Pontus (sea), Tartarus is the place where, according to Plato in Gorgias (c. 400 BC), souls were judged after death and where the wicked received punishment.

There you go now

rabzy: Tartarus is not a place, it is a spriritual condition of total alienation from the light of God and debasement as outcasts from the heavenly family

According to what or whose definition?

alexleo: And where did the bible say anything on the contrary. My dear, nothing concerns me with whether a beast with ten heads or not will appear. I will only stick to what the scripture said. I am not John the beloved that was shown the revelation, i am not God that showed the revelation. My duty is to believe what God has said as written in the bible. I wont take anybody's interpretations. Not even my interpretations. it is all these various interpretations that has put all of us into all this arguments and everybody claims to be right. Lets leave everything as the bible said it pls. By the grace of God, i pray not to be in this world to see the beast thing you are talking about and i pray not to be in hell or in the lake of fire to know whether it is total wipe out or not. I am heaven bound by God's grace. But till i leave this world, I choose to stick to what the scriptures said about these issues and not anybody's explanations. Thanks dear.

God bless you abundantly, atimes there is much ado about nothing among Christians. There is nothing wrong with the word (seed) but some hearts are filled with thorns hence, they are like the pharisees, they know nothing about what they proclaim

Acting like a LADY already, many thanks to Wole.

But Ma, which office were you referring to, the same that is unconstitutional?, Once a paraga seller, always a paraga seller.

frosbel: 1. 2 Peter 2;4 refers to a holding place for fallen angels. So not sure how this relates to our discussion.
2. Gehenna which Jesus used often refers to the lake of fire

Sir, it is not just a holding place o, it goes beyond that, infact Apostle Peter use that exact word so that the Gentiles he was writing to will understand exactly what he was saying. They are Greeks and hence understand what Tartarus is all about.
It is a pit, an abyss
A place of torture and suffering
It is an underground filled with darkness. God is love but when those angels messed up, he didn't give them the salvation offer we mankind have but send them straight away to Tartarus and they have been there for God knows how many millennium now. God is not moved by human definition of sadism.

What if we can prove that Tartarus Peter mentioned was the same Gehenna?

frosbel: Sorry you are not making any point.

Hell does not exist, the dead are asleep, judgement is ahead.

The problem with your theology is that you have misunderstood the mortality of MAN and attributed to him an immortality that is extra-biblical and more along the lines of platonic Greek mythology.

MAN is mortal, that is why he dies, and when he dies he is dead, there is only one hope and that hope is resurrection.

Bro, do you believe the entirety of the scriptures as infallible inspired word of God upon which every issue on doctrine should be resolved.?

Have you read 2 Peter 2:4? Was the hell so started there Gehenna or Tartarus?.

frosbel: To support the erroneous position of eternal torment , we have to define death as something else.

God makes it quite clear that death means death , but we are made to believe that death does not mean cessation of existence but rather separation from GOD. This is false.

Like Alexleo said, it is important we call it virus and not micro-organism so some people will not attempt to use antibacterial to treat HIV. We are talking of a far more serious issue here.

If you have taken time to tell us about hades, tartarus etc to explain Hell, why can't we emphasis the specific and exact meaning of death the Bible is talking about unless you think those scriptures are invalid.

Did you see my questions to you about your take on the features of hell?. Did you also cross check if 2Peter 2:4 was talking of Tartarus and not Gehenna like you initially started?

truthislight: Lol. Tatarus means prison.

Pray, tell and quote where you source your definition

truthislight: You are repeating soul two times.

Body and spirit = Soul. Gen 2:7

so, that place is talking about the complete man and his spirituality being kept in God's favour till the end.

Sir, I have read Gen 2:7 using different translations, unless I am missing something, there is no place your where your equation was quoted.

You mean Paul, a today equivalent Professor at law is stupid and he repeated soul twice giving it different names?.


Do you mean I pray the Lord to sanctify your Soul, Soul and Body?, now even you must accept that is extremely ridiculous


Hebrew 4:12

Hebrew 4:12
New International Version
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

New Living Translation
For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires.

Also here, the Bible say the word is able to divide the Soul and Soul??. I know you have fixed your mind to believe what you decided to believe but you can't argue against facts

frosbel: I have addressed this point in previous posts in great detail, I trust you might want to refer to them.

MAN is a mortal being and is not a spirit.


The spirit mentioned by Paul is the gift of life or inner consciousness.
The body is the dust
The SOUL is the entire MAN, intellect, will, emotions etc.


When a MAN dies he sleeps till the resurrection.

As James succintly put it :

"For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." - James 2:26




Go back to Genesis 2;7 , MAN only became a SOUL when the spirit or breath of GOD entered him.

Ok, let's take this way ' what is soul and spirit', are there any differences between the two?

Can you do a favor and look at the original greek/ hebrew of every place the word spirit is used as relating to man and if it has a definite difference with the word rendered as soul?

frosbel: Yes, HELL as translated Gehenna aka lake of fire.

2Peter 2:4 is not Gehenna but Tartarus. Anyway, that is not the point. Then do you agree the following about Hell
1. It is still existing and will continue existing
2. It is a place of suffering
3. Immortal spirits delivered into it will suffer for eternity
Just indicate which you do not agree with and if you do with hell, let me know

frosbel: Again and again, you seem not to grasp the basics.

Let starts again from Genesis.

In Genesis, MAN was faced with two choices, immortaility through obedience or death through disobedience, unfortunately man chose the later.

To prevent MAN from living forever in a sinful condition, GOD removed him from the garden and prevented him from eating the tree of life, lest he should live forever , we read :

"And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." - Genesis 3:22


When MAN sinned, the only judgements passed down to him were :

1. Pain in child birth
2. Toil and sweat to eat bread.
3. DEATH.

Nothing else.


We are all faced with the same choices today, life or death.


Regarding everlasting , eternal etc, I really do not know why this is difficult for you to grasp.

If some one dies forever, is this not eternal or everlasting ? , meaning a punishment of everlasting , irreversible consequences.

Death will cease to exist, forever.

Bro, good bible study materials and a quality time spent with the Holy Spirit can make you understand these things better.

Death means separation from two things, when you come across words like this first determine the exact Hebrew or Greek word used as you might have also discover English is actually poor atimes to elucidate and define a word correctly

Death doesn't mean annihilation or removing from existence. Like I said earlier, it means separation eg I can tell you I am dead to football, does it mean any body died?, it just tell you I am separated from the round leather game.

I need to tell you again to study to show yourself to approve to God.

Now consider the following types of death, to further show you what I am trying to explain

Physical death

Eccl 12:7

body and soul

spiritual death

Isa 59:1-2

man and God

second death

Rev 21:8; 22:14-15

man and God

dead to sin

Rom 6:2,11; Heb 7:26

Christians and Sin

dead to law

Rom 7:4
Christians and law

marriage dissolved by death

1 Cor 7:39
man and woman

frosbel: For the benefit of doubt , how does this relate to MAN ?

Then you agree there is Hell then?

frosbel: Only GOD is immortal and Jesus by his resurrection .

"who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen." - 1 Timothy 6:16

MAN is not a spirit, GOD is a spirit, MAN is a living SOUL made up of dust and the spirit ( or life ) of God in him.

Na na, read 2 Thessa 5:23. Paul said I pray God to sanctify your Spirit, Soul and Body.

Job 32:8
New International Version
But it is the spirit in a person, the breath of the Almighty, that gives them understanding.

New Living Translation
But there is a spirit within people, the breath of the Almighty within them, that makes them intelligent.

1Timo6:16 again you take that verse out of context, read the whole chapter!

frosbel: ^^

No, GOD says that DEATH will no longer exist period !

"He will swallow up death forever.....! " - Isaiah 25:8

or

"Death has been swallowed up in victory." - 1 Corinthians 15:54

Bro, read that chapter from the beginning. Haba! Any student of the Bible knows this!! That chapter is talking of the resurrection of the elect, we shall put on immortality and death will be no more, grave will have no more power over us, death where is thy string, grave where is thy victory?!!

Read that chapter in its entirety and comment again, do you have tools like strong's concordance and vine's bible dictionary?,get them and do like 2Timo2:15

frosbel: what about it ?

Sure that is not talking of a grave, it spoke of an actual place called Hell, where some angels who messed up are being kept, so where did get 'No Hell Theory'?

frosbel: correct.

v15 I meant.

15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

after which we move to Revelation 21:4 where it says :

"He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

I wonder why death will no more exist but still exist , hmmmm

The human is made up of spirit, soul and the body. The human spirit is immortal unlike the body that dies once. If you have vine's dictionary take a careful study of what God meant about creating men in his image and in his likeness. We are in the likeness of God(Genesis 1:27), palmist said he only created us a little lower than Himself (Psalm 8:4-( wrongly translated as angels). Do you mean God who Jesus said is a Spirit is mortal? Or what is your understanding of ' Image and Likeness'?

frosbel: ^^^

Hell here translated from Hades which means gravedom. Original word in Greek to Hades ᾅδου.

And what of Hell translated from greek word Tartarus in 2Peter 2:4?. You threw a question I answered on the other thread but you haven't been back since then

Too busy, I guess?

How does that make Patience act more like a Lady or stop her behaving like a paraga seller?

Unless the woman is a semi-illiterate paraga selling domestic appendages.

In short, the answer is NO!!!

This one looks like a LADY unlike the paraga seller Jona-dumbo calls wife

frosbel: First of all :

1. How many definitions are there for HELL ?

2. Is HELL a Greek word or Hebrew words.


When I receive your answers, we start.

There is Gehenna, Tartarus, Sheol and hades. Sheol is hebrew meaning grave, hades is greek also meaning grave although there is no general consensus on this as most Scholars believe the context of usage will explain the meaning (which makes sense to me) , Gehenna is greek and it means hell and so also is Tartarus.

Now, can we proceed?
NB: try and give straight answers instead of answering a question with another, it makes our discuss more meaningful